Pam,<BR>You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually, I don't even kiss my husband that much while having sex! We used to be able to kiss for hours on end! GOD, how I miss that!! I don't see myself ever having that again with my husband...I guess that's just the nature of being married!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can relate to the not kissing part. We used to kiss a whole lot more until the first affair. After that we hardly ever kiss and now we never kiss. She had enoough nerve to tell me she didn't like my kissing after she had an affair but used to kiss me all the time. I understand how hard it is to explain because there is different kind of excitement that goes along with it. I'm not trying to say that this is how you feel but I have read many books and discussed this concept with many people and even wondered what I would feel under the same circumstances with that frame of mind and have concluded it is the not kowing the other person phase that makes it exciting in a way different from what your H introduced with a variety of sex play. Things were really wonderful for my W and me when she hardly knew me. Now that she knows me and has attributed to me things her mother did (which my actions were similar but not the same), she thinks I am as horrible as I gather her mother was and still is to a certain extent. Her mother was and still is a very controlling, contradictory (do as I say, not as I do), unforgiving for a long while person. My W has become her mother and in many ways my father. My father is much like her mother only he is not as controlling.<P>I feel what you are saying but I can only speculate because I have never been at the in love state with my W. I went straight to unconditional love because that is where GOd took me. I guess part of it has to do with she was enlisted and I was an officer in the Air Force also. I had vowed that she meant more to me than my Air Force career. What we did was fraternization in the eyes of some. I would disagree. I met her and we talked for about 4 hours. I knew after that talk that she was the woman God created for me. Two weeks after the talk (15 days from the day I met her) I asked her to marry me. The rest is history.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 29, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 29, 1999).]

I had a talk with my husband last night about this subject. We were watching a tv show about these divorced people who disovered new found love again, including sex. When we turned the tv off my husband said that was a good show and I said no it wasn't it was depressing and then I started crying uncontrollably.<P>We got into a conversation about how we're never going to have that again. We've had this conversation before, but normally my husband says I'm just feeling sorry for myself. This time he actually acknowledged my feelings and understood. I told him how I want to fall in love again and it scares me to go through the rest of my life never having that feeling again. He asked if I had that feeling with the OM and I said yes...he didn't get angry with me at all, he was actually comforting!<P>He realizes there is no solution to this problem. Either we get divorced and I jump from guy to guy to have those feelings all the time or we stay married and try to make it as fulfilling as possible. He said we can try and find those feelings elsewhere in our lives together.<P>Then we discussed how I feel a lack of passion in our lovemaking. He doesn't feel this way and believes that I'm trying to hard and thinking about it too much. Maybe he's right. I have been questioning EVERYTHING in my life lately...maybe I just need to relax a bit and go with the flow and have fun.<P>I'm guessing alot of married couples go through the not kissing as much as they used to stage. It sounds like you might have been in the "in love" state with your wife at one point but just didn't realize it. To ask someone to marry you after only 15 days of knowing each other and to vow that she means more to you than your career sounds like "can't live without" love to me! <P>I didn't really understand what you meant about your wife comparing you to her mother...does your wife say you are a horrible person?<P>Pam

Holly,<P>I read what you wrote on another thread about looking into your OM's eyes and feeling that connection, God Holly I want that. I had that so strong, and the kissing for so long with OM was perfect, I actually felt we were one without making love, if you understand. I had that as well in the beginning with my husband, but it has been gone for years. The passion is gone. Do you ever think of OM when your with your husband? I try not to and try so hard to block him out but he always comes in. I hate it.

Yes, the OM will be on my mind when I'm with my husband. It's not so much that I wish I was with the OM physically, I just wish I could feel that deep emotional connection with my husband. It's very disheartening and it makes me not want to have sex with my husband because it only reminds me of the lack of connection. However, I have no problem having sex with my husband when I'm drunk...and I'm the one that usually initiates it. Maybe it's because I'm in the mood and just want sex, maybe it's because I'm more relaxed and not thinking about all our issues, or maybe it's because my defenses<BR>are down...I'm not really sure why.<P>Actually, I fantasized about the OM when I was with my husband before anything even happened between us. I guess I felt that there was a connection between the OM and I, but I wish I would have discussed those feelings with my husband instead of having an affair.<P>Do you think we could ever kiss like we used to with our husbands? Do you think it would have lasted forever with the OM? Or is it something we just have to accept?<BR>

Oh my God Holly, I fantasized about being with OM before anything started so much! I would actually initiate more sex with him I think so I could fantasize I was with OM. I thought it was kindof normal to, which I know now it definitely wasn't. Me and OM were great friends and started flirting alot and our feelings initially came out for eachother when we told eachother we "certain" dreams of eachother.<P>Holly you know I'm still deep in withdrawal and at this point I can't imagine ever feeling that way for my husband again. But that may not be the case in your situation. I know I had alot of fantasy about my life being perfect with OM, and I was in only stage 1 of the relationship, but I can't seem to shake the feeling that I'd never lose that with him. Just the way he used to touch my face, kiss my face, even my hands, my husband has never done that and I can't expect him to, he's different. I even asked my husband to touch my face and look into my eyes while we were making love, it does nothing, because I know I had to ask. I want it to come naturally.<P>Holly, I question everything, I don't have any children and I know alot of people here stay married for the children, so can I assume without them, they'd be gone? My OM says so. I told the OM I would leave for him and since he rejected me, I feel my husband is second choice to me. Sometimes I feel I'm home because I don't want to go through the process of getting divorced, selling the house, splitting everything, and involving family. I know I shouldn't be there for material reasons. <P>I to wonder if I get divorced will I be even more miserable, will it be the biggest mistake ever, will I be forever searching for the "perfect" man, who doesn't exist, or would I find someone more capatible with that special connection. <P>Do you think I should send my OM a closure letter? Every morning he still trys to say "goodmorning", and I feel like strangling him and telling him to ignore me. I get so angry at him. <p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited September 29, 1999).]

Holly -- I watched that show last night too -- "Once and Again"... I was depressed by it as well. <sigh> Anytime I see a show or movie about a couple who are really happy and giddy to be together it makes me depressed. The scene where they are making out in his jeep after they went to a restaurant... aaaahhhhgh!<P>Hum -- I never had sex with my OW, but I sure as hell fantasized about it all the time. So did she. I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever get feelings back for my wife. I was pretty optimistic about it before, but as time moves on, I'm more and more bleak about the prospect. I guess I have to keep giving it more time... but how much time is enought time? When do you finally say "You know what? This won't work for me..." Argh.<P>--andy

Well, Holly and H-Bird. You struck a tender cord with me.<P>I too miss very much that "emotional" connection I had with the OM. I never understood it, because I had NEVER felt it with my H. It was powerful, it was electric, it was very addicting.<P>I still cry during sex and/or after sex, remembering that connection with the OM, wishing it could be with my H ....<P>Crap. When does this end? It's been over a year ... he's proved that he's a complete and total jerk ... and yet ...<P>In fact, just this morning I was remembering the friendship we had cultivated. How I miss that friendship I had with him. I've never been "friends" with my H ... and I'm sorry to say that right now I don't have the desire to have it ...<P>And no, I don't want the OM back. I could never trust him. I kick myself daily for trusting SO COMPLETELY someone as decietful has he was/is. What I WANT is what I thought we had. Was it real? On my part it was .... but was I just a game to him? I don't know. He claimed to have felt the intense connection also. I loved him so much.<P>Geez, I totally hate this.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 29, 1999).]

Part of me wishes I never had sex with OM or anything physical with him at all! I wish I left it all to fantasy in my mind. We waited to long to finally have sex, I didn't want to unless we were going to be together forever and he's wife was his first and only ever. The actual act of sex between wasn't the best but that didn't matter because I know it was all the guilt between us and I feel we both shouldn't of taken it that far. The "fooling around" before that was unbelievable and for some reason in our minds we didn't feel as guilty doing that? I don't quite understand that and have told my counselor that as well. <P>Everything he did was perfect, I was just thinking of how he would kiss my belly button, my husband never does that. I know I shouldn't go there. I talked to my OM alot about how we both loved our spouses but weren't in love with them. More like how you'd love a friend, not a lover. I have a comfortable feeling with him "like a pair of old shoes", which I've also told my counselor. Maybe I'd feel the same way about the OM after 14 years, but it's hard to think I would.<P>How much time do you give it? I know you can't put a timeframe on it but I feel like my life is passing me by and I'm beating my head against the wall. I know marriage vows are forever but when I made those vows I was sincere and I was very young and naive in so many ways.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited September 29, 1999).]

I'm there with ya, H-Bird. It ain't a fun place to be right now.<P>

Airheart--<BR>I feel the same way about seeing movies about happy couples, even when I see happy couples...it makes me totally depressed. I find myself being envious of everyones relationships. My husband says I take these romanticized tv shows too seriously sometimes. I've started watching more sitcoms and less soap opera type shows. <P>Do you have an idea in your head about how much time your going to give it? Do you think you could find something more elsewhere?<P>Maya--<BR>That's the one thing my husband and I do have...friendship. However, it doesn't feel like enough for me...I want to be his lover! Why have you giving up on trying to be friends with your husband?<P>Hum--<BR>I know what you mean about the sex thing...sex with my OM was incredible! It didn't happen that much. Just 3 days worth on a business trip in Lake Tahoe and we had sex like 10 times! I guess it didn't help being in Lake Tahoe...it's honeymoon central! I wish I had left it as a fantasy! Having sex with him just made it even more difficult to give him up...I realized what being intimate could be like again and it was hard to let that go. His wife was his first ever as well, (besides the hooker he tried to have sex with when he was in the Navy...but he ran away because he was so repulsed by the way she smelled...did I say that!)<P>Anyway, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if we could find the perfect man out there that would fulfill our every need at all times. I imagine that the special connection that you feel with someone initially just naturally dies...there really is no answer.<P>I also don't know what to tell you about the closure letter. I feel that it might have been a bad idea. I know that the OM was hurting as well, but he chose to do what was right and stay with his wife and daughter. He may not have had an easy time letting me go...and therefor continued to lead me on. I can't blame him for that, I was doing the same thing. I feel guilty for leaving things on such a negative note...and it really didn't make me feel any better. It's probably best to just walk away gracefully. I do suggest that you write down your thoughts to him...you just don't necessarily have to send it.<P>Pam

I never felt like I WAS friends with my husband. He and I both agree that we never really had the friendships that we see with our other married friends, but that we wanted it. <P>I had it with the OM. WHY????????????<P>I just don't desire a friendship with my H. I don't desire much of anything really. I care deeply about him, I feel awful for what I've done, feel awful that he loves me so much and I have nothing to give back ....<BR>

Pam,<BR>I hate that show 'Once and Again'. It epitomizes certain things that are wrong. She isn't divorced yet and most importantly it goes against God's plan. I cried the first time I watched it. I don't know if my W noticed it. It breaks my heart because I see her thinking it is okay to do such things when it goes against everything Chrisitanity says.<P>As for as her comparing to her mother. She has stated that I am controlling like her mother. She thinks I intentionally try to embarrass her in public when I say no we can't buy something. For some reason she thinks I am yelling no when I am in a conversational tone and level at the time.<P>I can live with out her, yet, it just would be hard because we have been together for a long time. (It took me 2.5 years to get over my ex-girlfriend and we were together for about 4 years.) Even at the beginning, it was because I knew she was the woman God created for me. I did grow to love my ex-girlfriend because it happened for me with her the way my W told me it was for her with me. My W had to grow to love me because there wasn't an in love thing per say. She was infatuated by my looks and probably to some degree the fact that I was an officer. I used to disagree with my last statement but have begun to think differently in the last 6 years of my life.<P>I don't mean to put down that feeling but I know there is something that is far more important than that feeling. God gave us those feelings to enjoy but they are not to be the center of our atention. It is Him that we are to be focused on. Once we have that focus, we then get to understand and truly experience what unconditional love is. Unconditional love manifests itself through actions without the expectation of receiving anyhting other than knowing you did what was in the other person's best interest whether it hurts or not. Often telling someone the truth is a painful thing for the recipient as well as the messenger.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Well, Rob, you and I would rarely agree on anything, but on this one we do.<P>I'm alarmed reading this thread, because I'm concerned that rather than helping the participants heal, all this "Oh, it was so wonderful with the OP" stuff is instead just contributing to the withdrawal and reinforcing the idea that those "feelings" are the way life and marriage are supposed to be.<P>But I can't speak for others, so let me just ask then: People, is this REALLY helping you?

D&C--<BR>No, it's not helping me...it's very discouraging to me, but it's how I feel and I can't help it.<P>I need to focus on something else besides "feelings". Have any suggestions?

Dazed & Confused,<P>No it's helping me either, making me more depressed. <P>I wish I could shut that part of my brain off. I've tried thinking of OM's bad points everytime my mind goes there, but it hasn't helped yet.

Ditto from this person too. It's a very dark place we are in, huh?<P>But you know what? I WANT to have feelings in my marriage ... I currently have NONE. I shudder to think of going thru the REST OF MY LIFE not having any feelings for my H, just doing it because it's my duty. <P>That's the frustration we're feeling right now. We WANT TO having the feelings of love too .... not just the commitment/obligation thing. Yeah, we stayed cauz it was right, cauz of the kids, but our hearts are broken ... we've felt something we can't replace or duplicate ... and now we struggle to find SOMETHING to cling to in a marriage that has NO feelings.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 30, 1999).]

I think we've all pinpoited exactly what is wrong in our marriages...lack of feeling!!<P>Now that we know what the problem is, let's stop dwelling on it and come up with a solution!!<P>We have to stop thinking how "WONDERFUL" it was with our OMs...I'm so sick dwelling on something that is no longer an issue or no longer part of my life. That's in the past now...how can we move forward?<P>Maybe we can figure out what it is we want in our marriage besides "feelings". I really think getting the "feelings" back is a mute point...it will never be like that! What exactly are we looking for in our spouses to make us happy?<P>We all know that eventually the feelings would have faded for the OP, just like it did for our spouses.<P>How can our spouses make us happy? How can we make ourselves happy? There's more to life than constantly seeking out a "feeling" to make ourselves happy!

Dazed & confused - <P>Thanks for your comment about whether this thread topic helps. I read almost every thread - good and bad - to get a complete picture and a realistic point of view. Many of the treads are encouraging to me...I see many success stories (success for me would be if my W came back...let alone having to face the hell of withdrawal and rejection).<P>Reading this thread, although very depressing and discouraging, helps me keep a perspective on what I can probably expect IF my W ever wakes up and comes back. Although it is difficult to read, I do need to see and prepare for what might become reality for me someday.

I feel like I can't move forward, I miss the OM so much. <P>I just spent lunch hour crying again. I wish I could a serum and magically not love him anymore, I hate this.<P>I want to love my husband like I did in the beginning, even though I knew about all his faults, I still wanted him. I want to feel confident that I belong with him and no one else.<p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited September 30, 1999).]

This post is given in love and not intended to be judgemental. I am sure some will blast me for it. However, as I develop a more deep personal relationship with Jesus, the more clear and simple the answer is. To God be the glory!!!!<P>Pam,<BR>You're right about the feelings being a moot point. You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe we can figure out what it is we want in our marriage besides "feelings". I really think getting the "feelings" back is a mute point...it will never be like that!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The feelings are a real part of us because that is part of the pleasure God intended for us to experience.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What exactly are we looking for in our spouses to make us happy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We first must understand that happiness is a feeling that is temporary and is always situational. We need to look for the joy that comes from having our focus on our Creator. It is through knowing (having a deep intimate relationship with Him) that the understanding of how all thing fits perfectly within His PLAN. The operative words are HIS PLAN.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We all know that eventually the feelings would have faded for the OP, just like it did for our spouses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Excellent observation! It is because happiness and that in love feeling was and always will be situational. We long to have situational things be eternal. It will never happen because God did not define it that way. He did define joy to be eternal. Joy is found in having a deep personal relationship with Jesus, our Lord and Savior.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>How can our spouses make us happy? How can we make ourselves happy? There's more to life than constantly seeking out a "feeling" to make ourselves happy! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bravo!!! We must develop that personal relatioship with Jesus to be able to truly answer these questions. We are looking for something permanent and eternal: God is eternal love. Jesus is the answer!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>