Bird,

You need to do a bible study on Hebrews 6 which covers the basics of the Christian Faith, among them, (and firstly actually) is repentance from dead works.

Bird, have a look at the service archives on www.ccc.org.au for the month of September 05 (or maybe October) There is a series here on Hebrews 6. There is a great message on Warfare - dealing with strongholds of the mind and the next Sunday morning repentance.

My wife was really spoken to by God through both of these messages. Have a listen.

If God has forgiven you (and he has) why not give yourself a break.

My wife does still struggle with forgiving herself and is suffering immense pain at the moment because of what she has done to OM's family & our family. It's a process I think. It's 4 1/2 months post D-Day for us now. She hasn't forgiven herself but remember this is a process - a marathon - not a sprint.

God Bless you both Bird.

Yes, definitely a marathon.

BB, you need to forgive yourself. Forgiveness is such a special, special thing. It was the complete forgiveness of my H that was the one, the only, the complete thing that helped me beyond measure. I was able to forgive myself because of that.

Occasionally, that horrible, horrible feeling of guilt rises up in me but I know where we are NOW and I can cope with it.

You know what you've learned - you know you won't go there again.

Bigkahuna, your name always makes me smile. I always picture a great big surfer dude or a Prince from Hawaai.

I've read your sig line. Can you imagine what it was like for MY H - an 18 month PA to deal with. He's a very special man.

Hi Jen,

I won't spoil the illusion LOL!!

Prior to my wife's affair I couldn't imagine dealing EVER with any infidelity.

My reaction to my wife's affair surprised everyone - even me.

I was glad I didn't have to deal with a full on PA - Very lucky and I really believe God allowed me to discover it just before she crossed that line. The week prior to D-Day he had booked a love nest for a day for them both. How lucky am I?

I really can't imagine the agony of your husband. God bless him & you both. God bless all of us trying to recover from these wretched situations. We all find strength we never knew we had.

Is KiwiJ from NZ, the land of the long white cloud?

Bird and Bigkahuna,
I went to this website and the behold, I was very touched to see that the message for Jan 8 is "Forget the Past"

This is the same thing the Lord has been telling me for 3 days straight. Monday night at a meeting. Yesterday the scriptures he gave me were.
Philip 3:13-14 and Hebrews 6:1, Luke 9:62 And again this morning on that website. Okay I'm getting it!!!! This is what God wants me to do. I even asked God yesterday to help me forget the past. Forgive and Don't get stuck in the past. How can we overcome if we stay in the past? We can't. He has forgiven us, He has forgotten, we are to do the same.

Focusing on God and Jesus, listening to the Holy Spirit, and the recovery H and I are in today is what matters. God is doing miracles.

We went from the infidelity, to his continually lying, to his getting an apt last week, had his things all packed. 2 hrs later his things unpacked, then canceled his apt. He couldn't stand to see the pain I was in, and thought his leaving would be best for me. I was so stuck in the things and pain of the past, God knows!!!

He has promised not to lie to me (friends helped me here, I had to go to members of the church about his lying it was getting so bad, and he got some rebuke). He wants to learn how to love me the way I should be loved and to be the spiritual H and father of this home. He has admitted and confessed many things to me. He has come out of some major fog and deception. He wants to renew our marriage vows. Go on a 2nd honeymoon. It's amazing the things God is doing.

There were prophesies in church Friday, and Monday that God is healing marriages, even at the last minute when things look the worst. BB and Magpie, yours is one of those marriages too.

BB loves Magpie

Magpie loves BB

And God love the both of you!!

Forget the past, stay in today. Your Forgiven.

As you continue Submit to God, resist OM (enemy), he will flee.

Blessings,
Lady

Bigkahuna - thanks for the suggestions, and the links to your church's archived services. I will indeed look at Hebrews 6 as well as the services you mentioned. I was hoping to get to them tonight, but don't know if I'll be able to.


I know I need to forgive myself...but it's hard at times. I found it fairly easy to forgive my wife, and even the OM...but forgiving myself is going to be a harder. I will continue to work on it though.


If I do, I deserve to be shot (or worse). I have prayed to God, on several occasions, for Him to continue to heal the pain and hurt my wife and I have both suffered....but I also asked Him to never let me forget it. I do not ever want to do any of those things (especially the sexual sin) again.


Ladysheep, thank you for sharing those verses. They were great, and really helped me to begin to at least see a path to forgiving myself.

I am slowly reaching the point where I can actually see myself forgiving myself for what I did wrong. It's amazing to me how easy it is to forgive ourselves for little things, even if there's a ton, but the big things seem to stump us.

Bigkahuna, Jen and ladysheep - I want to thank each of you for continuing to answer my questions, give me advice and encouragement. You all are true blessings, and I wish each of you continued success in your situations, and in life.

Thanks, BB, that means a lot to me. I've always thought that something good has to come out of what we've been through and I am always happy to help. My life is wonderful and that's what I always try to tell everyone here. There is an end, and it can be a very good end.

BigK, yes, the land of the long white cloud. I'm always impressed when someone knows that.

Last night my wife and I were talking, and she told me that the OM's phone call on Tuesday had really affected her, since she was not expecting any more contact from him. Since her return, she has been trying very hard to not think about him, and since the unexepected phone call he's been back in her mind.

I was not overly surprised that he called. He wanted to ask her if she had sent me some stuff via e-mail that pertained to their affair (she had, quite some time ago, at my request). He also mentioned something about e-mailing me, but she wasn't sure if it meant he intended to e-mail me, or was going to e-mail me if she hadn't given me the information I had asked for.

She understands the importance of NC, and can see what the most recent contact has done to her. I do believe that my lovely wife is committed to NC, but am of two minds about how to proceed, and so is she.

At this point, I'm not sure if he will contact her again...I can't get a clear "feeling" on this one. So...do we let sleeping dogs lie and not send a NC letter? Or do we send one anyway to clarify in no uncertain terms our position?

If we let sleeping dogs lie, we run the risk of the OM potentially attempting to contact her again (I doubt that he would contact me, and if he did there's really only one thing that I would care to hear from him).

However, on the other hand, if we send a NC letter I'm concerned that it may increase his desire to attempt contact (this may be an entirely irrational fear). At least with a NC letter I could, if further attempts were made by the OM, step in and reiterate our position, referring to the letter.

Also, is the NC letter best done by an actual letter, or is e-mail sufficient?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm not willing to take a stand, but that's not a case. I will take a stand, but I want it to be the best one, not the first one that comes to mind.

Send the NC letter. Make it very stern, direct and to the point, nothing nice, don't worry about his feelings. Then if he makes contact again get a restraining order. That should do it.

Eagle15 -

That's pretty much the point I'm heading to. I do have some concerns for his feelings, because he was my friend as well (and first). But not nearly enough to jeapordize our marriage.

For his sake, I hope he respects our wishes. I do not want to escalate to a restraining order, as it would negatively impact his current legal situation, but I will if I believe it necessary.

I would like some input on this NC letter. I based it on the examples linked from Dorry's Guide. I customized it some, mainly to reflect that the OM was my friend as well. It should be obvious that I want nothing to do with him anymore, but for the sake of completeness I wanted to state the obvious.

I will show this to my wife when she gets home from work tonight and see what inputs (if any) she has. Thanks in advance for any inputs/suggestions.

------------------------------------------------------------
[OM] –

We are writing this letter for one reason only. All communication between you and us must come to an end immediately. If [BB] and I are ever going to resolve our differences and re-establish the trust we once had, there can be no contact between either of us and you ever again.

What happened between you and I should never have happened. It was wrong and immoral. Friendships have been destroyed, integrity and honor have been compromised, and a marriage already in trouble was further damaged.

[BB] and I love each other and our kids. Our marriage deserves 100% effort from [BB] and I to make our lives together as happy, loving and fulfilling as possible. We will initiate no further contact with you, and will not accept attempted contact from you. We will be totally open and transparent with each other. Any attempts to contact us will be made known to each other.

We wish you well, and we will appreciate your respecting our wishes.

Sincerely,

[MP] and [BB]

Bird,

SWAP MOBILE PHONES IMMEDIATELY

The letter looks OK to me.

bigkahuna -

Thanks for the feedback on the letter. Based on some inputs on another thread, I've asked MP to write the letter, and then I'll look at it and make any suggestions I might have.

It really needs to come from her, and needs to be written in her voice. I intend to send it certified (or return receipt requested) mail, to ensure the OM gets it. That way, if my wife maintains her side of it (i.e., NC), we have more legal options open if we need them.

We did switch cell phones for one day. I've discussed changing our numbers as well, just as a precaution.

So Friday OM contacted my wife. MP told me about it first thing Saturday AM (in fact, she woke me up to tell me). I was glad she waited a bit to tell me, as Friday was a really rough day for me, and I had just reached some peace and calm right before she came home. I don't think I could have handled the news quite at that point as calmly and well (no LB's) I did the next AM.

Anyway, OM has, as I understand it, decided that MP is the one for him. I hate to dissapoint (well, in this case not really <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), but she's already spoken for - by me. This does however explain (to me) his earlier phone call, regarding whether or not MP had told me about a certain thing.

Turns out she hadn't. Now, based on what that thing was, I'm pretty sure (though I could be paranoid) that OM is going to do what he can to hinder our recovery and rebuilding efforts. In any case, if that was his intent, it failed. I am committed to letting the past remain the past, and focusing on today and now, so that I can do my part to make a better future for MP, myself and our kids.

In some ways, as I told MP last night, it's water under the bridge. Doesn't mean that I'm/we're not going to have to deal with it at some point, but I have more important things to do than dwell on the past.

In any case, OM is apparently willing to take MP any way he can get her (as long as she goes willingly), even if that means he's her plan B (not to be confused with MB Plan A/B). MP has chosen our marriage, and he knows this. She told him to leave her alone for the next 2 years. Not quite what the ultimate goal is, but we're getting there.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I told MP last night that she does not, and will not, need a plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some of this (especially the latest stuff with OM) would be downright funny, if it's wasn't real life....

So the current plan we're working on is that MP will write a NC letter (this will be the "So Long And Thanks For All The Fish" sort, not a check back in 6 months to a year - or at least that's my intention), we'll review it, and send it off. If he continues to try to make contact, we'll look at other options as they apply.

Meanwhile, MP will not answer any calls that do not have a name associated with them (i.e., any calls from sources that are not in her cell's phonebook, and OM has been deleted from it).

Now all I have to do is keep reminding myself that there is no value in going over to thump OM's melon.....even though there are times that idea has very much appeal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BB, this is a toughie. I kinda know what'll be going through MP's head right now. I was lucky that I was told in no uncertain terms by the OM that his M and wife were much important than me. I mean that, I was lucky. Having said that, he still tried to keep in contact.

I admire MP HUGELY if she is serious about the NC letter and everything she is doing. HUGELY.

Oh, go and thump his melon with my blessing. (Just kidding)

Hi Jen -


If you would be willing to share that with me, I would appreciate it. I know some of what is going through her head right now. She does still miss him, at least somewhat, and I know with NC that will diminish with time.

Right now, she's told me that she's frustrated with what's she's done, with how she has hurt OM, and that it took the A to wake me up to the problems in our marriage. I don't think she's at the point yet where she has much thought for what her actions have done to me (which I understand, but it doesn't make it much easier for me).

I do respect and admire her (and have told her this several times, and told our counselor at our last MC) for deciding to work on our marriage, and for giving a solid effort in regards to NC. It's not quite where I would like it to be, but I realize how hard it is for her at this stage.

She's also working on being open and honest with me, and I greatly appreciate that as well.

All in all, I know she's putting forth as much effort as she can, and I intend to encourage that. I am, at this point, much more concerned about OM's efforts to derail us than MP's commitment to our marriage.

She told me today (in an e-mail) that she's so emotionally drained right now that's she basically letting me lead. That's fine by me for now...I have told her many times in the last month that I have no problem if she wants to lean on me 100% for support right now. It's what God directs husbands to do, and what I didn't, until recently, do - lead.

Pretty sad, if you think about it, especially considering the fact that I spent my youth as a commissioned officer in the US Armed Forces. I was trained to lead, and I have experience in it.

Anyway, if you'd care to share any of your insights as to what my lovely wife is going through right now, I would be very grateful. Thanks.

I can't understand for the life of me why you don't swap cell phones with MP. Your M is more important than whatever reasons you may have for delaying this exchange. Can't you see that MP is drained and will continue to be drained every time OM contacts her? Your job is to do everything you can for NC, and that includes making it hard if not impossible for OM to contact MP. What are you waiting on?

UVA -

I don't, I'm afraid, have a good answer on that one. It may be, perhaps, that I'm trying to walk a delicate line between being overprotective and underprotective.

Yeah...reading that I can tell you're going swing a 2x4 at me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I didn't realize (or was simply too stupid...still) to realize how drained my wife was, until her e-mail (a reply to one of mine on something else) this morning.

I do feel that either swapping phones, or better yet just getting new numbers (I have no desire to talk with OM, unless he refuses to follow my wife's wishes) is the path we will need to go down. I do not think OM is going to simply fade away.

Personally, I believe that he is something of a manipulator (whether it is conscious or not I do not know). For example, and I shared this with MP last night, he blames her for the loss of his and mine friendship, because she told me about the affair.

Well, I'm sorry but as her husband, I had a right to know. He did not want her to tell me, but she even told him that if I asked her to her face, she would not lie to me.

In any case, the loss of my friendship is a direct consequence of the actions he chose to take. He did not have to have an affair with my wife.

I digress. You make a valid point UVA. MP came home early from work tonight as she did not feel well at all, and went to bed before we could talk (I was busy with DD's bed time routine).

I will bring up the changing numbers idea again tomorrow AM. I don't know how she'll react to it, but if I were to guess the only real issue for her would be that she's had that number for years, so lots of friends, family and business associates have it. Of course, that's not a good reason to hang on to it at the risk of NC.

It's late and I should be in bed (still up trying to figure out what book of the Bible to study next...Hebrews or 1 John...).

Anyway, thanks for the gentle kick in the butt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bird,

It's enough to just swap phones. That way you don't lose any contact you want. You just give legitimate callers the new number (yours) so they can call your wife. Plus you will know if OM tries to contact. Also les him know how serious you both are.

Oh and by all means comfort yourself with the fantasy of beating the s$%t out of OM. Works for me.

bigkahuna -


Oh...I will admit that there are times I get to thinking about it. I'm generally trying to avoid fantasies of any sort right now, but that one has a tendency to show up from time to time.

When OM called a week ago, I was really, really mad. I found myself wishing somewhat that dueling was still allowed. I would have been happy to show OM what it means to be qualified "Expert" on a pistol by the US military <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I would have had a perfect score the last time I qualified, except I was thinking .45 when I was actually shooting a 9mm, and jacked one round out of the chamber. Ooops).

Anyway, that's all I'll say on that. It's probably rather counter-productive, and as I said above my energy is better spent elsewhere. There are still days though....but that's what the gym is for <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Or a real good physical game of basketball...

Time for another update, for those following along (if anyone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Last week, MP asked me why I didn't have (or didn't appear to have) any consequences to back up my boundaries. That was a good question.

Short answer, I didn't when I set them in place back in late December. I had actually begun thinking of some about a week before she asked me about them.

In coming up with consequences (i.e., actions I would take if she did not meet my boundaries), I wanted to make sure they weren't knee-jerk reactions, vindicative, or have the appearance of an ultimatum. More along the lines of, if you follow course A, I have choices B and C, and I will choose C (for example).

NC has been a struggle. Last night I came home intending to clearly define my boundaries and the consequences. I got home, and before dinner she asked me how I was feeling.

I said I was fine. Then she paused and told me that OM had asked permission to call her, and she said OK. They talked for 45 minutes. (Note here...I was happy that she told me, as there had been dishonesty last week about contact).

She then told me that at the end of the conversation, he told her to never contact him again.

Well....that kind of threw me for a bit. After the kids were asleep, I decided to presented the boundary conditions (regarding no contact and 100% honesty), because I'm placing the responsibility for NC on her shoulders, though I will help in any way can.

The consequence? The frist one - I would terminate our internet connection and quite possiblyl her cell phone, because I am no longer willing to fund her affair, even if it is primarily EA at this point.

I asked her if she had any questions or comments, and she said no questions, and it sounded fair to her.

I would like to believe that OM will keep himself out of the picture, but I've heard this line from him before (well, it wasn't that exact line, but he was going to stop talking to her) and he contacted her a few days later.

I have been learning and growing a lot in the last couple of months, and the last couple of weeks especially.

I have learned:

1. I cannot control other people; I can control how I react to the choices they make.

2. There is nothing wrong in setting clear boundaries with consequences, as long as the consequences are not punishment or a way to get back at someone.

3. You can be too aggressive in Plan A (trying to meet all of your spouse's ENs all the time at every opportunity), which can have the opposite result of what you intended. I.e., you can "smother" your spouse (or as MP put it, "overwhelm").

4. For me, at least, it is amazing at the sheer number of ways that a husband can give the impression of being "needy" (in a clingy way) without even intending too.

5. Finally, from a spiritual side...trusting 100% in God all the time is really, really, really, really hard! That and having patience.

So there's the update. MP is working on a NC letter, we are (still) in MC and IC with a strong Christian, pro-marriage counselor, and I'm working very hard on being a strong, confident person willing to meet my wife's needs without going overboard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This journey is a lot harder than I thought it would be, but I have to keep reminding myself that she's only been home for 7 weeks. At the very least, I have become stronger and am becoming more self-confident, two of the things she said she wants in/from me. I hope to continue on this path and become both a better person and have a recovered, restored and rebuilt marriage.