I posted this in Just Found Out, and it was suggested that I repost it here. I do so now, with a little more clarification.

My wife and I have been married for 4-1/2 years, together for 6-1/2. We have two kids - one son 11 years old (hers), and our daughter, 3 years old.

She began an emotional affair with a man that I thought was my friend over the internet in late August of this year (2005). He has been going through a nasty divorce for the last year, and she went out to visit him and help him pack up his kids' rooms to send their stuff to their mom who lives in another state.

The PA occured over 10/23/05 - 10/27/05, and she confessed it (at least part of it) on 11/06/05. She has tried to go NC but failed miserably.

She wants to work on our marriage, as do I, but is so ensnared in the affair that she wants to see him one last time to break it off (currently planned for 12/27/05-01/09/06).

The affair grew out of my not meeting her emotional needs, and her not meeting mine. We had fallen into a vicious cycle of not meeting each others needs (if she won't meet mine, why should I meet hers? If he won't meet mine, why should I meet his?).

We have been reading His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters, and I just picked up Surviving An Affair today. I'm also reading Wild At Heart. We had our first joint session of MC on Tuesday, 12/22, and she had her first IC on 12/23 (today). I have my first IC on 12/27.

I fought against this trip since she told me about it (on 12/21). Unfortunately, due to my complete failure to be the husband she needs, wants, deserves and that God calls me to be, I no longer have enough credibility to change her mind.

We are both Christians, but I have sat on the fence for a long time. I am no longer on the fence, and am praying daily to submit myself to God's will, and to seek His will in my life and that of my family.

I firmly believe that the best thing I can do right now about the trip is to leave it in God's hands. Every time I try to stop it, I end up making her more resolved to go and more angry at me. God is working on her heart and mind - I can see that. She is struggling with this - she knows it's wrong.

I believe, and a good number of my Christian brothers and sisters support me on this, that the best thing for me to do is to continue to seek God's will in this matter, to leave the issue of the trip in His hands, and to focus on making myself into the man He calls me to be, with His help, and doing my best (againg with His help) to work on this marriage.

There are some who will tell me to take a harder line (think Dobson's Love Must Be Tough book). I do not think that this is the time to do so. I believe that is still Plan A time (this affair is relatively young).

Now for the part that I didn't add to last night's post in Just Found Out. Until the last year or so, I had a voyeuristic streak in me, and had told my wife that seeing (or hearing about) her with another man, or participating with her and another man would be very exciting. She did not like this idea, but I kept pushing for it and talking about it.

I was working on getting rid of that particular piece of garbage, though not as hard as I should have. I also told her that I did not want her to do anything at all with this particular person (because he was a friend of mine).

Her actions are her responsibility. We both know that. However, I cannot sidestep (nor do I want to) the fact that I opened the door for this to occur. I bugged her about (in reality) having an affair for so long, that it had to have some effect on her psyche.

I am reaping what I sowed, even if this is not what I had imagined at the time I was sewing. But sin is like that - it often has consequences far greater than we anticipated or wanted.

I will always love my wife, and I will always be there for her to the best of my ability. I do not believe that God is directing me to take a harder line with her yet - in fact, I believe He is asking me to leave the trip and her to His care for now, and get myself squared away before Him first. Only by being truly centered on God can I ever hope to be the man He calls me to be, let alone the husband He calls me to be.

The trip does concern me. She knows that in no uncertain terms do I agree with, condone or approve of what she wants to do, and that it will have an impact on me worse than the original affair. It will set us back even further than we already are.

Yes, my position could be construed as implicitly giving her permission to do this. However, I know my wife enough to know that certain things cannot be pushed with her, and this is one of them. I can look over this week, and I can see what happens when I push, and I can see what happens when I leave it in God's hands. Personally, I much prefer the results God is getting, however small they may seem, to the total lack of results (or at least the results I want) when I get involved.

Right now my focus is on continuing to seek God's will in this and in my life, and working to repair the damage I have done to our marriage. Even if it doesn't have an immediate effect, it will set a basis for her to judge my change against, and it will get me in the habit of fully considering my wife's needs over mine, and working to meet them.

I know what I did wrong. I know what I need to do to fix things on my end. I know that I will carry the lion's share of the burden at least at first, because my love busters (selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, and angry outbursts - especially the angry outbursts) have stripped any security and trust my wife had in me when we got married, and I have to give her enough positive, consistent change to give her reason to believe she can begin to safely open up to me again.

This battle, in the end, is not mine. It is God's. I will seek His will in it, and do as He commands me. God brought us together - I do not believe He wants us apart. But I do believe that He wants us (both of us) to make some serious changes in our Christian lives, and as the head of the household those changes have to start with me.

Hopefully this post is a little more coherent than my last one. Fire away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi - You have the book Surviving An Affair? Read the section on how Harley says the A should be ended. It is definitely not the way your wife is planning on ending it. I don't believe her intentions are to go and see him to "end" the A.

We cannot control our WS's actions. Only let them know how much it hurts us that they continue to see the OP. I don't think she is ready to end the A yet.

You have come to an excellent place for support and advice. I am sorry this has happened to you -

Blessings,

Kim

If you don't mind OM having sex with your wife some more, then by all means continue to enable her to go on the trip.

Do you seriously think that after coming back from sleeping with OM your WW will be more ready to work on the M with you?

You are living in fantasy land. What I think is more the case, is that you are afraid of your WW and are willing to put up with her crap so as not to lose your "M".

Well, I've got news for you. You've already lost your M. The question is, are you willing to do what it takes to maybe get it back. If you really want to save your M, enabling your WW to go screw OM some more is not the way to do it. You think you are in Plan A, but you're not! You are in plan APPEASEMENT! You have just agreed to be a doormat. That, my friend, is not Plan A.

Plan A has two components: (1) meeting the ENs that WS allows you to meet and (2) exposing the sleazy A. Allowing WW to go screw OM is not the kind of meeting WW's needs that Plan A entails.

The choice is yours. I know I am harsh and I know that this is a very hard time for you. You have my deepest sympathy and concern, but I think you would be making a colossal mistake if you let her go see OM with your blessing.

You see, women want men they can respect. How can your WW respect you if you tell her it is ok for her to be with another man? She can't, she just can’t! And if you really believe that nothing will happen between them, she'll just realize how gullible you are, if she has not noticed already. A woman will not respect someone who is so easily duped.

Accepting reality in your case is very hard to do. I know. But accept it you must. You will also need to grow some backbone if you want a real chance at saving your M. To recap, Plan A is not Plan APPEASEMENT. It is not equivalent to being a doormat. It is about meeting WS’s needs and exposing. Not being a doormat is not a LB.

Before I jump on your thread again, let me know if you are really willing to fight for your M.

In any event, please read some of the articles and some of the other threads on this forum, so you may get a better understanding of what Plan A is about.

Best

UVA - I am really willing to fight for my M.

There's some stuff that I have not shared yet (my wife has also been reading these forums, and knows I have posted here, and I have encouraged her to post as well).

I may not agree with the advice or the counsel, but I do listen to it and I do appreciate it.

I'd like to write a more coherent reply, but right now the lack of sleep, lack of appetite, minor nausea and general blah physical and emotional feeling I have leaves me too tired to do anything but pray.

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

Translation she wants her cake and eat it too.

She wants to see OM so they can rut like pigs for a few days. (thanks Mel)

My heart breaks when I read this. I know what it's like. I am very sorry for your pain and will keep you in my prayers tonight. My point, though, still stands. You cannot give your blessing to your WW and OM getting together. Nothing good can come of it.

I hope you had a merry Christmas.

BB, this is a lie. She is not going to break it off, but to have sex with the OM. If she were really ending things, she would not have to fly there, she would send a letter ENDING THINGS.

So no, she does not want to work on your marriage, she wants to go have sex with the OM. And apparently with your blessing.

Ok, this is my third time trying to respond to this. Hopefully my head is cool enough and my computer will cooperate. This is the WW. To clarify ‘Bird is NOT enabling me to do ANYTHING. My poor unfortunate dh married a strong-willed, stubborn, whirlwind of a woman. Part of the reason I married him is he loves me despite the crap I put myself through, and us. There were some serious issues in our marriage and not really looking for an affair, I fell into one. This was after practically nagging him that we needed help and I needed him. Despite how horrible and distasteful an A is it’s the only thing that woke him up. ‘Bird is not afraid of me, put he knows that if you push me, I push back. I need this trip to put things in perspective. Ditsy and unconventional, but it’s the way I figure things out. I have to test the theory, and the limits. I know that I am being selfish and hurting lots of people. ‘bird puts up with my crap because he knows I have a lot of baggage that I am still working through

He’s not appeasing me. I was ready to walk out. He can keep the house, the kids, etc. I was done. He has been doing Plan A, sometimes getting a response, sometimes I shut him out. He keeps trying knowing that I am working it out in my own time. The A has been exposed and there have been consequences. Despite that, I am still going on the trip. Though maybe making it shorter.

Wherever did you get the idea that this was with his blessing? He has given me his stance, but realizes that I AM an adult, making my own choices, and having to live with the consequences.

Painful as this may seem, he lost my respect long ago when he stopped cherishing and protecting me. I can respect him as the father of my children, but not as my husband. That is one of the areas that our marriage needs work on. See, we have some terrible role reversal issues that are hopefully going to get worked through in counseling. Yes, we are doing counseling. ‘Bird is doing his best to NOT push me further away, and I appreciate that. We have almost 4 years of bad stuff to work through, and we’ve only been married for 4.5.

Welcome to marriagebuilders, Magpie. Glad you figured out how to post. It is always nice to hear both sides of the story. There are usually reasons that the marriage got in such a bad state that an affair could happen.

I hope you will read some of the information here about meeting each other's needs. Your marriage CAN be better than before.

Magpie, welcome to MB. Please put on some armour because posting as an active WS is not pretty. First let me tell you I am both a FWW and a BW two times over! What I quoted you saying above is crap pure and simple crap . Why? Because nothing and I mean nothing (short of physical abuse )your husband has done compares to what you are doing to him. You are so full of entitlement and bullsh*t. I have been there, I know. Now, open your eyes. You have a man here trying to save his marriage to you. All the while you want to go off to [censored] some other man. Tell me again what your H has done to you that is as bad as that?

Ok, M...now that I have pissed you off...please read this site carefully about infidelity. Read the posts by the BS's that are screaming with pain. Get the book Torn Assunder and read it with your H. Do not go on that trip. You will regret it the rest of your life. You really will. You are a mother...what example are you setting for your children? Do you want them to look at you with love and respect or with pain and heartache in their eyes?

brokenbird,

Please forgive me if I ask a delicate question but is this permission you are giving to your wife to go see the other man and fornicate with him a fulfillment of your stated "voyeurism"

ONe day when you are out of your WS "fog" you will realize you rewrote your entire marital history to justify your A. We all do that. You are nothing different than any other WS. Your OM is nothing more than the same scum the rest are. You see? What you have that IS special and different is the man that is willing to accept you despite that fact that you ripped his heart out. HE is someone special and worth respect.

brokenbird, I hope you have repented and apologized to your WW for this. I would also recommend you get the book Every Man's Battle and possibly even attend a workshop. This is a serious offense against your WW but does not excuse her lack of respect of her vows to you in front of God.

It's not ditzy and unconventional. It's typical of people who are so wrapped up in themselves, that they'd rather go screw someone than stay home and work through their problems, like an adult. Try to look at this realistically, instead of playing the renegade to justify your behavior. There's nothing even slightly cute about this trip.


What do you call it then?


So, you're ready to desert your kids, so you can go off and screw this guy? Maybe you need to look into your children's eyes and think about what you're doing to them and how you're destroying their lives with your immature and self-centered actions.


What would it take for you to grow up and cancel the trip? You obviously know that you're wrong. Can you use some self control and think about someone other than yourself?


Too bad that your children have to live with your consequences.

Cyamanca -

It is not a delicate question (to me). I have nothing to hide and am cleaning "house" of my issues and sin as rapidly as I can.

First, as I have said, and my wife has said, I am not giving her permission to do anything. It may appear that way, and it may seem implied, but my wife and I know my stance on the issue of the trip.

Second, no, this is not a fullfillmnet of my voyeurism. I told her before the first time she went to visit that I did not want anything to happen. I still want nothing to happen. I have absolutely NO desire to share her with anybody else - not now, nor ever. I also know that it will take time, counseling and the help of God to remove this sin from me permanently, and to rebuild the intimacy I so badly want and need with my wife.

I realize (now) that my obsession (or addiction) with voyeurism went a long way to destoying my wife's intimacy with me (she never shared this fantasy of mine). I am disgusted without myself for ever having these desires, and regret them deeply. I have confessed, repented and asked God's foregiveness for them. I have verbally and in writing expressed my deepest sorrow, shame, regret and self-loathing to my wife for those desires that I continued to push upon her despite her telling me that she didn't like it, and what they have contributed to our current situation. I have asked her for her forgiveness, and I hope to, in time, receive it.

I appreciate the advice, opinions and experiences you all are willing to share with me, my wife and others. I respect your positions, and will listen to them with an open mind. I do not guarantee that I will agree with them, but I will listen to them. I love my wife, and I will stand by her through this trial, willing and able to help in any way I can. I have been in constant prayer, I have sought counsel from many, and I have read scripture. I have said this before, and will say it again. I firmly believe that I am following God's direction in my actions.

Magpie,

Could you please explain to us why you ARE going on this trip? What will you get out of this TRIP? What will your marriage get out of this trip? Could you put yourself in birds shoes and think what will go thru his mind when you are with OM? If you could do this try using a male brain point of view. What do you think will OM get out of this, he is vulnerable b/c his divorce? He might be using you just to get over his ex wife, what will he do when he get over the divorce? I think nothing with you!!

I know I am wasting my time with this reply!!!

There is a ¨letter for the WS¨ if someone could revere you to it as can't remember where it is.

Yes you have had a bad marriage, but the quicker you both commit to the building of a new marriage the quicker you can feel full filled in life and in marriage. What greater feeling is there than and married couple having a full filled marriage??

Van.

You know, I read Magpie's post and I can't get past the arrogance. She's in the wrong...nothing on God's green earth justifies an adultery...but she thinks it was a good thing. She's going to do what she wants to do come he!! or high water and the heck with the consequences to her children and marriage. I can't get beyond the selfishness of her actions and words. Essentially, it's her way or scr3w you. She admits she’s putting a lot of people through the wringer, but there’s no compassion in her at all. She’s going to go sleep with the OM (to test some “theory” ??) and anyone who doesn’t see she has some kind of God-given right to do that can drop dead. I can only shake my head in bemused astonishment. I wish this couple well, but there’s got to be some major attitude adjustment on this woman’s part before they can have a real marriage.

It's the type of insanity that comes with an A. The persons involved tend to do things that they would never do under "normal" circumstances, like leave their children in order to have a "test screw" with the OP. It's simply the addiction at work.

My advice to "Magpie" would be to wait a few months before going on that trip, to see if she still feels as strongly about it after her M has had some time to recover. And for BrokenBird, if three months pass and his WW still feels as strongly about going on that trip, then he should know then what he may have to do (Plan B, anyone?).

He certainly IS enabling it. It's a mistake. One that I made too. It doesn't end an affair, it feeds it and adds to the excitement.

You are trying to make it almost noble of him to do it. "See how much he loves this 'strong-willed, stubborn, whirlwind' woman? How great is he to let me stomp all over his heart and soul to get what I want?"

As for loving you despite the 'crap you put yourself and him through'...while it's admirable to love a person with all their faults it's another to help them continue hurting themselves.

Bird - Would you help your wife to one last crack spree if she were a drug addict? Would you pay for her last alcohol binge before she stopped drinking? I implore you - from experience - to take a stand. You can not stop her, true, but I will tell you that God is NOT telling you, as a man, to send your wife off to have sex with another man in an effort to save your marriage.


Not really stopping one either. You had a choice. You chose to deal with it by having an affair. There were other choices, including leaving your marriage FIRST, you could have chosen.


Ok. You woke him up. Honestly, it is the only thing that finally wakes up a lot of people. The difference is that you are CONTINUING. You say it horrible and distasteful. YES IT IS.

At this point you are choosing a horrible and distasteful path that IS AND WILL CONTINUE to hurt not only your husband and child, but you.



Save this. Really and truly save it. This is something you will look back at in the future and cringe over. I've never heard running off to shack up for a week with a lover while leaving your husband and child without you called 'ditsy and unconventional'.

Heck, I'm saving that one.



That's nice. Make your adulterous trip a little shorter. Then it's a little less horrible and distasteful? Are you really ready to accept being horrible and distasteful? This is a CHOICE you are making.


Yes. You are an adult. Making your own choices. In your own words, horrible and distasteful.


Is this payback?


You can't work on it while being in an adulterous affair. You just can't. You can't work on it while making the decision to flaunt your affair to your husband, leaving him behind at home with your child while you go have sex and test the limits.


Counseling doesn't work while you are having an affair. You are choosing to hurt your husband in a horrible way. You need work on your marriage.

THEN WORK. Don't go out and continue to commit adultery. Work on it.

GO TO YOUR COUNSELOR!! Spend the time that you are giving to your affair to your husband, to your child.

Why waste one more moment being horrible and distasteful?

You have an incredible opportunity. It's hard and you won't have an easy ride but what is more important than recoverying your marriage and creating a life of security and love for you, your husband and your child?

You have been given a gift, a blessing of a man who loves you so much that he is looking within, not outside, of himself to find a way to make himself right to make your marriage right. He loves you so much and loves his family so much that he wants to be with you regardless of the affair and your willingness to crush his heart and soul by leaving NOW to see another man and continue the distasteful and horrible affair.

There is certainly much to work through and on.... for both of you. The state of your marriage is on both of you. But the choice to have an affair is solely your decision. The choice to continue that affair is solely yours.

Please stop right now. Don't take this trip. Do it for you, your husband and your child. Give them the greatest gift you can...yourself.

Although people will be very honest and blunt with you, there is no one here that doesn't wish the best for you and your marriage. If you choose to accept the help, it's here.

FIM

The pure evil that lives in a WS's heart leaves me mind boggled. Rarely do I find myself this disgusted.

Brokenbird - I doubt very much that God's will is chaos. God's will, I believe, is truth. Truth is the light. I'm afraid as long as you refuse to draw the line here she will continue to make you and your family a mockery. You've got to find the strength do take ACTION my friend.

I don't think I can help here.

I'll pray for you guys.

I'm on this trip to test if this relationship is solely based on sex or more. One of my shortcomings is that I tend to dwell on the what-ifs. We tried NC twice. Neither one of us (me or the OM) could go more than a few days, and frankly I didn't want to give him up. Isn't one of the premises of MB that NC has to be willing?

BTW, I forgot to mention, this trip is a compromise between me and the OM. He made me an offer of the permanent kind. I'm not a rebound for him. But I realized that neither was I wanting to leave my marriage without at least trying.

This trip gives me a chance to test how much of this relationship is fantasy. It is long-distance and mainly kept alive by phone calls, email, and chat. Not actually being around each other. I told 'bird at one point that I have this insane need to destroy everything so that we can start over with a firm foundation. I don't want to dwell on what-ifs, which I will without some closure. Bird's already told me what will go through his mind. I guess I have a hard time accepting that since it wasn't the case before (see his admission of voyeurism, which I have previously participated in). I know on some level I'm being vindictive and acting out, but I have gotten to the point where I don't care. I'm numb.

OM is not getting what he wants either, but he's willing to take what I will give. After this, he doesn't want me breaking his heart anymore either, so he's agreeing to NC too.

He has apologized to me and asked forgiveness. I am still more hurt by it than I thought I was and it's something I need to work on.

Faithful, can you please explain to me why I should respect a man who desired these things, encouraged them, wouldn't listen to me when I TOLD him plainly and explicitly how they made me feel and how I viewed marriage? Respect a man who encouraged sinful behavior? Or is it just because of his position as my husband? If he had been abusive in a physical manner, would you tell me the same?

I wouldn't call your so-called solution "ditsy and unconventional." I can think of much more appropriate ways to define a married woman flying off to rut like a pig with another man and it is anything but "ditsy." It is trashy, immoral and destructive. There is nothing positive about a married woman conducting herself like an alley cat in heat; nothing but a common who*e. It is destructive to your soul, your husband and your children.

You may have fooled yourself into thinking this is a good thing, but you have fooled no one else about your despicable, sleazy behavior.

I feel mostly sorry for your children. To have an unfit mother who does not know right from wrong is a great tragedy.

Soooo.. magpie....setting aside the fact that every justification and reason you have for this trip is pure unadulterated crap....

You are basically keeping your husband on a backburner while you test the waters with some other guy?

How horribly cruel and how incredibly selfish.

Have the backbone to divorce your husband and when you are free...THEN test out Mr. OM.

Whats the rush?

Magpie:

I just want to honestly personally thank you for posting here in the flesh.

I think reading your comments are actually EXTREMELY helpful to many (some?) people here. I liken it to being able to do an autopsy to determine the cause of death.

Everything you are saying and feeling with regards to your affair/behavior and rationalizations of such is a validation of what many Betrayed Spouses go through in trying to "process" this or try to "understand" what their Wayward Spouse was thinking when he/she did this. You are giving us a "view" from within. I at least can appreciate it. Many ofcourse won't understand why I am really posting this to you..and will probably think I am giving you validation for your actions....LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Just so there are no misunderstandings....I'm not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Rather than blast you for your "behavior", I will actually thank you again for being deathly "honest".

You see, I am of the school of thought that one is better off knowing the "truth" about these things. I imagine there are a number of people (both BS and WS) who can 100% understand the POV that you and your Hubby are coming from.

Your posts and responses to all are greatly appreciated (at least by me).

You are going to no doubt get blasted by many here (not suprisingly), but I hope you "stick it out" for a while and remain honest.

I don't expect to "change" your mind or "guilt" you into doing what is "right". You are a grown woman and can/WILL have to live with the consequences of your actions.

I'll be honest....I look at this more in a selfish way...I am learning alot here.

Thanks again.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Magpie -

The statistics are not in your favor. Less than 3% of affairs go on to be marriages, and of those that do, 75% fail.

Right now your husband is willing to do anything to save the marriage. That won't last either. Soon he will start resenting your affair. Then he will start hating himself for being willing to put up with all of this.

You are likely to end up alone, divorced with your 2 children. I feel so bad for you and your family.

My two cents worth. Brokenbird, if this arrogant adulteress actually goes to see if her relationship with that jerk is based “solely on sex,” (What a load of crap that is!) you need to let this woman go permanently. Call it Plan B if you want for the near term but don’t even try Plan A any longer. There’s no Plan A that will work with her. She’s too selfish for words.

Box up her belongings and have them waiting on the driveway when she gets back or ask her where they should be delivered. Change the locks on the doors, file for legal separation (if your state has such a thing) so you can get custody of the children, and then go dark. She deserves nothing else.

Letting go of the relationship is going to be painful but I cannot imagine it can possibly be any more hurtful than living with her AND you’ll begin to heal almost immediately without her pitiless presence hovering over you and the kids. Guess what? There are millions of good women out there who aren’t as cruel and heartless as this woman is. You’ll find someone to replace this caricature of a wicked witch without trying.

Someone posted above saying they were disgusted with this woman’s actions and words. That goes for me, in spades.

For the umpteenth time (i guess depending on who I am talking to),

here's what happened:
Yeah, I got pissed at my dh for something said or done and on a whim decided to take OM up on his final offer of a trip where we focus on just us if I wasn't going to join him permanently. I said "Fine, buy the ticket". I am NOT testing the waters, I AM returning to my dh if he will take me. I am NOT trying to justify or avoid blame. I KNOW that what I am doing is wrong, hurtful, sinful, etc. I just don't CARE enough to do so. Does ANYBODY here understand that??? Can you????

Intellectually I can totally agree with everyone who is flaming me. My heart just doesn't agree. There's a major disconnect and very little will to even try to change my course. About the only that has softened my heart towards my dh is that he is praying for me, constantly.

I can't see in here.

<flukeboy reaches over and turns on the Foghorn and the Justification Warning Lights>

Magpie - You must be so far from where you used to be. What a tragedy this is in the making. And so preventable too. Reconsider what you are about to do. The torture and anguish that will visit your husband AND YOUR CHILDREN is abusive by its very nature. There's still time to stop this train...

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

How very tragic for your children.

Oh no, I am not rewriting it. I might be overcompensating for hurts and wrongs done to me, but we have honestly had problems since just after our dd was born.

My dh is special for loving me through this, but like i said before, would you advocate respect for someone who abuses you? That's a harsh statement, but if what he did to me emotionally had come out physically, yeah, it would have been a lot easier to leave and have the support of everyone around me. But this was secret, done in the dark, and too shameful to tell anyone about.

I know two wrongs do not make a right and that I am hurting him terribly, but maybe all of you would be pleased to know that things here are going swimmingly (that's sarcasm BTW). I can't stop thinking about my DH and am trying to find a plane ticket that doesn't cost an arm-and-a-leg, and I've only been here one day.

That's priceless Flukeboy.

I'm curious of why you think that continuing your affair with another man is going to make no contact and working on your marriage easier.

Or are you seriously trying to see if you and the OM have a future? If you think you do, are you planning to leave your children with your husband?

So an adulterous affair is okay if it's not just sex?


Isn't one of the premises of marriage fidelity?


The OM has no place in your marriage or any decisions regarding it. If you choose do end your marriage do it without the crutch and excuse of an affair. YOU ARE A MARRIED WOMAN. What the ****** are you doing making compromises with another man?


Permanent is a big word for someone having an affair with a married woman (that's a permanent thing). I'm not sure either of you understand that definition.


F'ing another man = trying? I don't get it. Could you explain that?



It's fantasy. Do you think a few days with your affair partner while your husband takes care of the kids and is waiting at home for you to come back is anything but fantasy land?

Try this on for size:

Reality: Your husband moving on with his life without you. Your children knowing you ended their family with a horrible and distasteful affair. Your children shuffled back and forth between mom and dad. Another woman one day tucking your children in, soothing them, shopping with them, playing with them. Knowing forever that you left your husband for a dirty, sinful and disgusting affair. That is reality my dear.


Reread that. THAT is what you are gambling on... gambling your marriage and children on calls email and chat. Are they worth that little too you? Are YOU worth that little to yourself?


Closure won't come from sleeping with another man and continuing your adultry. More numbness will. You know what is right. You said yourself you are going to work on it. You're looking at counseling. Tired of being numb??? Kick yourself in the butt and get rid of the affair!!!


How generous of him. He'll take what a married woman is willing to give him. It doesn't matter if he agrees to NC. You must do it. You're married. Start acting like it.

FIM

Oink, Oink, Oink.

and Boo Hoo Hoo.

Sheesh.

Brokenbird - If you're reading this - I'd like to send you a private message or an email. Can you turn that on in your profile. Or not - certainly your choice.

-Fluke

[quote
It's not ditzy and unconventional. It's typical of people who are so wrapped up in themselves, that they'd rather go screw someone than stay home and work through their problems, like an adult. Try to look at this realistically, instead of playing the renegade to justify your behavior. There's nothing even slightly cute about this trip.
[/quote]
Actually, it's not about the sex for me. It's about someone willing to open up and show me genuine care. That's what the OM had over my DH.


No, not desert my kids to go screw this guy. I was done with the marriage in general. Tired of him not listening to me, not seeing how in trouble our marriage was, not doing the things he should have been doing, not only for me, but for our family. My kids don't know about the A, but we have told them that we are having trouble in our marriage. I was willing to let him have the kids because he's more able to provide for them. Not because I don't love them. One of the reasons I am not choosing the OM is because I don't want him to be the father-figure for my children. There are a lot of dynamics in our marriage and family that you guys are not aware of that also play into my decision-making (or lack thereof <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Nothing could have made me cancel the trip except an act of God. I didn't want to have to make that decision. And now that I am here, I am ready to go home.


Why don't we see what those are in a few days, shall we? 'Bird and I are both of a mind that this marriage is fixable. I just need to get in the frame of mind to want to try. It won't work if only one of us is putting in effort. Right?

I belive that PM's are not enabled here.

Lem

Budge.

Thanks Lem.

How utterly inconvenient for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Dorothy thought the wicked witch of the west was evil. That witch has nothing on this one. That she doesn't care about anyone but herself is abundantly obvious and she uses her lack of compassion as a reason for causing more pain. Wasn't that John Wayne Gasey's attitude?

And do you have anything actually HELPFUL to say?

Flukeboy, you can post your email and then delete it after he emails you.

Good point Melody. I'm not shy!

Brokenbird - You have mail.

Lots of helpful things, but I'm not gonna waste my time casting pearls before swine.

kahuna - One must admit that it's good that she is here at least. That's more than most WS's would do. This place CAN be beneficial in helping WS's come to terms with their situation and make that 180 deg. turn.

Case in point - LOST71 and Mrs_STOWaway.

I can only hope that SOMETHING she reads here will make a difference. It only takes a seed...

Flukeboy - yes - she has a hide as thick as a rhino.

At the moment, it doesn't matter what anyone says to her she is so full of crap and entitlement that it is just a waste of everyone's time & energy.

When she comes back here wanting to actually work on her marriage rather than go screwing some guy, my attitude will change.

There are a LOT of helpful things being said. Read between the lines. Everyone is trying to get you to accept that you are doing the most repulsive thing in the world a married woman...scratch that...that any woman could do to someone who loved her.

Let's see. Maggie thinks she's entitled to dump on her husband, a dozen folks out here who are taking time out of their busy day to try and get you to see the light do NOT think you are so entitled. One in favor of screwing the slimy other man, twelve against...thirteen if you count your husband. But we can see how you consider his opinion, can't we? Shouldn’t you consider the fact that everyone here violently disagrees with you? Don't you understand your position is indefensible? Woman, until you decide to listen to something other than your own ego, no one CAN be helpful any other way.

Kahuna - I think we're of the same mind on most of this...

magpie, I don't think you would consider anything helpful that disagrees with your intended mission of getting it on with your OM.

However, I will point out that men don't respect whorish, easy women so while he may use you for sex, he won't want anything further than that. A man does not respect a woman who does not respect herself. Easy women are a dime a dozen. They are good for a free piece of [censored], but nothing more.

This comment is helpful:

This site is all about recuperation and to reach that we accept that sometimes we have to give ground to our wayward spouses. Make apologies and amends and swallow our pride – all for the goal of eventually regaining a marriage to build up and make “affair proof”.

Having said that I must say that if faced with this situation I would tell my wife not to bother with a return ticket. There are limits to what humiliation I am willing to walk through.

Well said bigger.

Hi Brokenbird,

I was wondering if you ever thought of having a talk with OM?

Lady

Bigger:

Nice post and I agree.

I would add that the "tough" issue with this kind of stuff (for me at least) is being able to separate the statement of "what humiliation I am willing to walk through" vs being able to offer "support" or "helpful opinions" to someone who's limits are far far different.

I admittedly have stuggled with this and am still trying to "reconcile" this and learn to offer something constructive despite this.

Just a thought.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Magpie,

Please think about this. Why don't you and bird take a trip( one for at least a month) where only the 2 of you are going. This will help you getting thru this withdrawal and out of the house. After this month you can still take that trip if you need it. This is a lot to ask from you now. But take this time, it is not true that bird should take the kids, they need their mom. It is easy to say I will just go and let what happens happens.

But remember this, you have to live for the rest of your life with yourself and you have to think every day what you have done too yourself and too your children. They will not be ok. You might be creating adulterers by the example you set to you children.
You know yourself if you go on the trip with all the brain stimulants (endorphins) working against your marriage. your marriage will fail you will feel that this is right ( it will feel right but it will not last forever). You will hate yourself for letting this happen to you and your family but you will hate your self mostly.

Thank you for coming here!

Van.

LM, remember when I said there are two kinds of WS's? There are those for whom an affair is an aberration of character and then there are those who just don't know right from wrong.

Post deleted by ladysheep

I agree Lem that people’s thresholds vary. That is why I state “if I were faced with this situation”. What Brokenbird might accept can be completely different.

Yep, reading you loud and clear...this is still a very very "helpful" thread (to me at least) despite the utter horror and reality for the people who are living this (children and BS) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I can literally "feel" the frustration and anger in many of the well intentioned posters to this thread.

So many people want to scream and shake the WS here and have them "snap" out of it..., but I don't think that will be of any use here.

People mean well...they really really do...but it won't get heard here. At least NOT today.

I think the thread still has value, but perhaps not in the way most people think.

Just my thoughts.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

LM - It is very sad for her husband and family. But I know what you mean. We don't have many WS's posting here from their love shack. I'm trying to understand what she is thinking.

magpie,
{Actually, it's not about the sex for me. It's about someone willing to open up and show me genuine care. That's what the OM had over my DH.}

Why don't you let us show you genuine care? Let us help you. Talk to us about Bird and his bad stuff. I will not judge you I will listen. You have a chance to be the better person. If you go on with the trip every one will be justified in getting on your case. Now we can support you and help you. We can help bird undrestand what you need. You don't need OM to feel better about yourself, you will feel sh#t and used!!!

Why is OM having a bad divorce b/c his ex wife is bad, it takes 2 hands to clap. Do you realy want to be stuck with his crab, do want to spend all your time talking about his bad marriage and yours. You will have at some time!!!

Van

Who can understand why anyone would do this?

AMAZING how it always seems to come out the same. Different people, different places, different times, same words and actions.

Yeah, I know it may seem "perverse" to some, but there is alot to be learned here.

Once again, I liken it to an autopsy.

Were getting a "real live" in the flesh posting from a WS ACTIVE in the affair.

Were getting to see the "crime" committed right before our eyes. No, this is not a "slide show" or a "movie", and I have great great empathy and sorrow for the BS and children who will be left with the ruins of this act....BUT I CANNOT and YOU CANNOT change or MAKE someone do WHAT I/WE want...so accepting that FACT....I try and see this for what it is....A validation of what we often "theorize" happens with a WS, and what many of our own WH/WS say/do during the affair.

No, this is NOT every WS actions and thoughts, but there are quite a few WS who many of us can "identify" with in the poster (magpie).

Yeah, one's initial and overhwhelming urge is to try and make the WS see the error of their ways....I can understand that...but that is NOT where the benefit is TODAY in the here and now.

Yeah it is sad....what else can you say.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

BTW people - for clarification...

I BELIEVE she is already ON the trip with the OM.

Magpie, I already addressed the physical abuse in my previous post. Your H has changed. No you should not respect what he was but respect him for what he is doing now. AND respect yourself and your child enough to D your H before you take up with an OM.

Yep......hence the reason I am posting what I am posting.

Lem

MagPie,

Been reading along and just sort of wondering about what to post to you and your H. I actually have a lot to say to your H if he posts here again. Probably a lot to you IF you can get that cranial transplant reversed.

I will say, there is NO justification for what you are doing. I will say that you clearly think your H is a good enough father to give your children to. At this point I guess he should consider taking you up on your generous offer.

I will say that the fact that you are looking for cheap fares is probably NOT making a lot of points with your H right now. I will also say that you blaming him for your decisions will not help you much when explaining to your children why you two are divorced.

I don't see much good coming from this trip except to get your lust satisfied for awhile. I do see you hurting yourself alot and that saddens me.

But, as for advice, I guess I will await your H's next post and perhaps yours if you actually have a question you would like help with. So far, your posts have been simply "here is what I am going to do, tough if you don't like it."

Doesn't leave a lot of room to offer advice or guidance. I suppose that is part of why this marriage is going down the drain. You don't take suggestions or new knowledge well.

Bon Voyage Maggie.

JL

Our posts crossed Lem. I don't think everyone realized that she was already WITH OM.

Just don't yell at me. K? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL.........Man, I guess my reputation precedes me...

I wasn't YELLING !!!!!!!!!!......<chuckling right now>..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I think you've been beaten on enough. Now, if you guys really want help, then maybe people here can try to come up with something to help you put your family back together.


Why is this OM not suitable to be around your children? What is the deal with him? You're saying that your hubby who has been neglectful to you and obviously has some issues that many people would see as sexual perversions, is ok to parent your children alone, but this OM isn't ok to be around your kids? And you have no respect for your H (understandable), but this OM is good enough for you, when he can't even be around your kids?


Why are you ready to go home after one day? And why are you on on this forum posting, instead of being with this OM that you had to see?

Her addiction is temporarily satisfied. If she returns home, the cravings will return, and this time they will be even stronger as a result of this latest trip.

KNOCK KNOCK! Hello this is Brokenbird's thread. Where is HE? How is HE? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />BB How are the children? Please answer.

I will not talk to the WW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

THis is an MB site. As someone said in their sig. You can't argue with an insane person. Or an active, unrepentant adulteress. WIth a nauseating case of selfishness, self-entitlement self-aggrandizement. GRR!!!!.

BB has admitted himself, that he begged his wife to screw another guy IN FRONT OF HIM for years and years, even though the WS was completely against it. BB says that he never got her to act on it, but from what she says, she did some things for him that made her very uncomfortable.

It's an unfortunate situation that magpie is having an A, and there's no excuse for it. But, the H is a piece of work himself and has a lot to answer for and his leaving it all to God, is a little concerning...

Both of these people are a mess and who everyone should be concerned about are these children. One of these two parents needs to grow up and do the right thing by their kids.

Just a couple of words. Well, more than a couple.

I thought about a flame and then I thought what would have happened if I'd posted in the middle of the A. I wonder what I would have said. I visited here a couple of times during the A because I was trying to finish it but I didn't really understand forums at the time and didn't know how to "belong" to a forum.

For the life of me I can't imagine saying what Magpie is saying. I think I probably would have posted along the lines of 'HELP ME STOP THIS AND HELP ME STOP IT NOW!'.

I know it's a very small credit to give myself and I've been pulled up on here before for giving myself any credit at all, but I was DETERMINED to save my marriage. Once the A was in the open I did all I could to make things as right as they could be.

Jen

Hi Broken,

I really have nothing to say to your WW at this time. But I would like to tell you that you are in my prayers and that we are here for you and will help you go through this, if you allow us to. Come back when you have a chance.

A few words are in order. You need a plan and you need it now. I know you said that you believe that you are doing God's will. I assure you that God's will does not include accepting, passively or actively, your WW to go on a trip where OM gets to screw her brains out. (Sorry for the graphic statement, but you need to be clear on what is happening.)

Given what your WW has said, I think your biggest task right now is to develop a BACKBONE. Right now, she has absolutely no respect for you. NONE. And since you allow her to act like this with little consequences, I can see why she would have no respect for you. Let me make this clear: you will not save your M by being a DOORMAT. Nor will you be able to protect your children and be a role model to them by being a DOORMAT. Nor will you be able to RESPECT YOURSELF if you continue to let your WW treat you like this. You need to WAKE UP and you need to WAKE UP now!

Your WW is just offering you crumbs, and rubbing her sleazy A all over your face. All over your CHILDREN'S faces. You have to come to a point where you do not accept to be treated like crap, as you are now, and act to protect your CHILDREN and your SELF RESPECT. If you are lucky you may even possibly save your M in the process. But contrary to what you may think, there is no way in he!! that you will save your M if you continue to allow your WW to Sh*t on you like this!

In short, it is time to grow some BALLS and MAN UP. If not for you, do it for your CHILDREN.

We are here for you and will be there for you. When you are ready, let us know and we’ll come up with a plan.

My heart and prayers go out to you and your children.

God Bless.

P.s. If you have the time, read Waitingonlove’s thread. The latest developments in his sitch will give you an idea of what it means to MAN UP. Further, try to make an appointment with the Harleys if you can. That would be very helpful to your situation.

Yes, I am still here. I will post more later tonight if I get the chance.

I'm glad to see that some of the tone in these posts is cooling off. I know that everybody here is posting out of a genuine desire to help us, and that they've all gone through this (though the details and roles may be different) or are going through this in their lives. I know that experiencing something like this will generate very strong feelings that will last a lifetime.

Having said that, I find the use of some words or terms (even as an example) to be highly offensive, and totally counter-productive to what I believe the goal of this site, and the goal of the posters here, is. Using words like wh*re, making comparisons to pigs, etc, etc may seem appropriate in the circumstances, but are ineffective, counter-productive, and in my opinion uncalled for.

This thread has only been really active today. There's a lot of back story that people on this forum have no idea about, and what they do may lead them to develop inaccurate or wrong impressions about the underlying causes of this.

Please understand - the road to get here was long, but the entire issue has been relatively short. The PA did not even occur until the end of October. I did not begin to realize the full scope of what was going on, nor my role in all of it, until the middle of November. We did not have our first MC session until a week ago today (Tuesday, the 22nd).

I will reply more fully tonight if time permits. I know that pretty much everybody disagrees with me on not forcing the issue with my wife over this trip. I know that everyone here (including me, and my wife) realizes the danger in this trip.

It is not my intention to be a doormat. My wife knows this. I can be just as stubborn and strong-willed when I want to or need to. I also believe that now is NOT the time to be so.

I am not leaving this in God's hands to fix. I am however fully trusting God to make me into the man and husbannd and father I need to be. I cannot change my wife. God can. I can however, with God's help, counseling and support change myself. If I was just going to leave it all to God to fix, I wouldn't be doing anything but sitting on my butt pursuing my own life while giving superficial or insufficient attention to my wife and family. That's part of what got us in the mess in the first place.

So please - voice your opinions as strongly as you wish. Voice your support if you wish. But let's leave the derogatory name calling out of this, ok? She is still my wife, and if I, as the betrayed spouse am not willing to call her names, I would ask that you respect that and not do so yourselves.

As I said, I'll post later tonight if I have time. Thanks.

Broken,

Could you please tell me what you think the benefits of your WW going on the trip will be to your M?

And whatever you deem the benefits to be, why do you think they counterbalance the deleterious effects this trip will have on you M?

Brokenbird,

I am deleting my post. I am very sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I hope your marriage can and will be reconciled. I hope your WW comes out of the fog, and makes the right decision.

Blessings,
Lady

Broke, I think you're in as deep a fog as your wife is. Your spouse has deliberately, cold-bloodedly decided to go have sex with another man in another city just because she can and you can't stop her. She said so. She's rubbing your nose in the slime, man. You don't think it's time to put your foot down? Huh? What kind of reasoning is that?

BTW, don't put this on God's shoulders. As my Grandmother used to say, God helps those who help themselves. I think you'd better take quick, decisive action just because it's the right thing to do or you're in for more hurt and humiliation than you can possibly imagine.

Longhorn -

"God helps those who help themselves". Can you give me a scripture reference for that? I'm pretty sure that it doesn't exist.

I am not putting this on God's shoulders. I am asking Him to show me what I need to do, to give me the strength to take care of it, and I will leave the rest up to Him. He knows what I want, and He knows what I need.

I'm going to have go through and collect questions and comments so I can more accurately reply to them later.

I will pray for you to do what God wants you to do, and pray for strength for your husband who is standing up for you, and your children.

Broke, I said that my Grandmother used to say that. I didn't say it was in the bible. On the other hand, maybe you should consider the thought behind that little expression. Okie dokie, I'm bowing out of this. Good luck. You're going to need it.

BB, with all due respect, I find it amazing that you are more offended by those names than by the behavior underlying them. People here are very offended by your W's behavior. What is truly offensive is acting in a whorish manner and then brazenly proclaiming it, not the accurate words that define it. Words do have meanings and we are under no obligation to white wash your W's immoral, putrid behavior even if you choose to do so. There is nothing sinful or "offensive" about calling a sin what it is: a sin.

What truly IS "ineffective" is allowing your W to spew all manner of sick rationalizations about her adultery without challenge. Perhaps this has something to do with the reason she feels so emboldened.

I am very sorry you find yourself in this position and we are here to help you. But please don't expect us to use nice words to describe remorseless putrid behavior. Political correctness has not infested this forum and it's doubtful it will start now.

BB,
I'm glad your still here. What you must had read today must have been extremely painfull.
It saddens me to say, that most of the replies to and from your WW were made by BS's (of which I am one also).
You must understand, that within each of us, there is still a lot of residual anger, bitterness, and resentment that lingers years after our betrayal from our WS.
If this were not true, I'm sure your WW would not have been stoned to an inch of her life in the public square today. Others on this forum, may well indeed stone me for even implying such a thing, but, I know in my heart what I witnessed today.

You are right to trust in God on this matter, as, He is probably the only one who is capable of melting the hardened heart of your WW. But it will only take a glance from Him to do so, and you should pray that He will.

When Christ said to the crowd, "let those among you who is without sin cast the first stone", everyone dropped their stone and walked away. Christ then looked down at the women and said "Women, where are your accusers?" She looked around and said " Lord, I see none." He answered " Then neither do I accuse you. Go and sin no more."

Hint, Hint, Hint!!!!!!!
Why doesn't everyone(and i love you all), drop their stone and begin to help BB and Magpie to recover and heal their broken marriage? Haven't we all been in a similar place when it was our turn in the desert?

JMVHO
All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, please understand that the response here today has nothing to do with the fact that some are BS'. It has to do with the fact that decent people become outraged at injustice.

What we saw here was a woman who boldly and proudly proclaimed her cruelty to her husband and her children - without remorse.

One does not have to have been a victim of adultery to become outraged at the injustice in cruel, hateful behavior. That is a critical element of decency that motivates all decent people. Decent people become outraged at injustice.

The alternative is moral neutrality, at the expense of decency.

p.s. your Bible story doesn't fit the situation, Jerry. She fully admits she has committed adultery so there is no need for accusers.

Exactly my point mel,
The same thing that every other WS did to their BS in the midst of their affair.
Do our responses to her sound anything at all like the Plan A that we propose to everyone else? I don't think so. I think, rather, it was a bashing, JUST BECAUSE WE COULD.
All Blessings,
Jerry

Every other WS doesn't come here and proudly wear their cruelty like a badge of honor. The ones that do, meet with the same treatment, and deservedly so. The crime here isn't the moral outrage, but the underlying remorseless adultery so let's try and keep this in perspective.

I prefer to focus my compassion where it sanely belongs: on her victims.


Of course not, we not married to her, so we are obviously not in Plan A with her.

You know, Mel, Shinethrough's got a point. No, WS's don't come here and proudly proclaim it but it is EXACTLY what WS's say to their BS's.

I'm afraid I'm finding it very hard, just like you are, to find sympathy for Magpie - it's pretty brazen and unpleasant - but, hey, I was there once. There's no denying it, although I look at this and think, SURELY NOT.

Jen

Jen, yes I know some do say things like to their BS'; it doesn't mean they come here and say it. Or that it's justified. And Jen, I don't remember you ever being this brazen and cruel. EVER. If you had, I am sure you would have met the same treatment.

Actually, I'll add a caveat. I was there once but never inflicted this sort of brazen cruelty on my family.

As I said before, I was trying to make amends BEFORE my H found out and I certainly wouldn't have inflicted further pain once I saw the pain and damage I'd caused to my H and children when they DID find out.

Jen

OK I Give,
If she called SH, what advise would he give her?
Would it sound anything at all as to what she got from this forun today?
I think you can answer that ? yourself.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Thats exactly how I remember it. You came here to try and repair the damage, not inflict more or gloat about your cruelty. I have never seen you act cruelly.

If she called SH she would likely be calling for HELP and he would help her. The same as we would if she came here for help. Just as we always help folks who are here wanting to salvage their marriages.

Again, exactly my point. This poor soul has not seen this yet. We can only pray that she does!!!!

All blessings,
Jerry

Why do you think she would even bother herself to post here if it were not for help?
Sometimes you have to read between the lines?
Jerry

I'll leave the reading between the lines to you, Jer. I prefer to read the lines.

OKIE DOKIE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
All Blessings,
Jerry

ahh, Texas!

I love ya, Jer! I know your heart is in the right place. You are one of the good guys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nowadays,
I somewhat fell like Tinman?
Jer

With no heart?? You are all heart, Jerry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alas,
a broken heart.
Jer

Mel, I don't think Magpie falls into EITHER of these.

Lem,

I agree with you here. My wife did leave me to shack up with OM - many of us have seen that. But she didn't do it with delusions that "I would take it" and with the "I'm gonna try him out" and bugger everyone attitude.

The real difference here is she is taking a trip to say goodbye, waving it in hubby's face and then expecting she can just walk back into the marriage. She's a real piece of work. Much, much different to any WS I have ever seen post here.

Yup. You're an addict, and contact with the OM is the addiction.

Do you resolve an addiction to smoking by smoking more cigarettes to test the addiction?

Do you resolve an addiction to drinking by drinking more alcohol to test your addiction?

No, the correct path is to STOP acting on your addiction. And yes, there WILL be withdrawal symptoms, like there are with any other addiction, but like any other addiction, those symptoms will not last, once you don't act on your addiction. And in this case, that means starting and maintaining NC with the OM.

Here's the thing Jerry. She DIDN'T come here for help. Nothing ANYONE said to her made the slightest impression. She was fixed on her sin and that's it. If she called SH, she would be looking for help. Today, on this forum she was NOT seeking help. See the difference.

I've made almost 200 posts on these forums and never before trotted out the baseball bat to any poster - not even a 4x2. The brazen entitlement of this woman just stuns me beyond belief. I don't regret a word I have typed.

God help her children.

I read Magpies's responses yesterday. I was so angry I just could not reply -when My H came home I just wanted to smakc him in the head. I did not. I held my nager in. Now I am more under control so here goes:

Magpie -you stated that your H made you use voyurism and you resented it hence your A. To get back at him for makingyou do something you did not do??? Excuse me here since when can someone mkae you do anything. Why not tell him coun seling for us before any decisions are made -why not walk away from a man with such low principles. Would you tell your child if your friend jumps off a bridge you should follow? I don't think so. You would say no one can make you do anything!!!!!!!!!! So you are angry with yourself and do not think you fool me. You are a woman a mother and have free choice. You choice to have an and blame your H for what You are doing. So if I am to understand this correctly -if my H got mad at me for something I did it is OK for his to go have an A???? Just makes me want to throw up. So MY H had an A - OK so I guess acording to your rules I should go get a guy and [email]F@@k[/email] his brains out just to make it right. You are the worst example of a mother I have ever seen. I hope you are not raising a daughter. This sickens me - I almost thru up after reading your reasoning. Girl get your butt home and get into counseling for yourself, your dignity and out of respect for your children. The question both of you need to answer is where is your morality????????? Where is your pride in yourself. Oh course this guy wnats you -your free -a free piece of a$$. Oh sure he says all the right things but weho respects a guy screwing another man's wife?? Do you think he respects you? Do you think he would M a woman who cheats? I think not.

The woman in the Bible was repentant. Jesus told her, "Go, and sin no more."

Jeremiah 13:27 "I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?"

God does not hesitate to call any sin by its right name, but the moment even the worst sinner comes to repentance, He will abundantly pardon, and cleanse them completely.

Many people, BS & FWS alike, having been crying a woe over Magpie, hoping she will see the magnitude of her sin. Even the most zealous seem to have the goal of wanting her at a place where she is willing to receive help.

Broken Bird, you are looking in the best possible direction for wisdom. If you follow the example God has given us time and again in His word, you will first call out for a repentance and turning away from the sin, then if that does not occur, cut off the blessings she receives from you, including that of knowing your presence. God did this so many times with the Israelites, yet when they returned to Him, He pardoned them IF they were truly sorry. Without trying to excuse or minimize their sins, He forgave them.

Prayers for both of you.

Wow, I thought my first wife was a piece of work.

BB, move on with your life with your child.

If Magpie returns, don't let her near you without STD and pregnency testing (I read you LM). Have her live somewhere else, and if you both really want to reconnect, start dating again and see how you both feel on the subject.

If she stays away, go into a dark Plan B and work on a Plan D.

Hi, magpie.

I'm not going to thrash you about. I am going to tell you a simple basic truth. I hope that you are still here reading.

What you are doing right now, you will regret for the rest of your life. If you stop it now, you will regret it less.

My guilt is over 30 years old. I am 50 years old. Even though I am forgiven, my past is always with me. The guilt is always right there, just waiting for an opportunity to jump up and get at me.

The guilt you are going to encounter with your child is going to be almost more than you can mentally bear.

Stop what you are doing before you find out the truth of what I have told you.

Gimble

How's it going BB? Hope things are okay with you.

Hi Believer -

Thanks for asking. Today was m first "down" day since Sunday. Not sure what triggered it, or if it was a series of events. Probably the fact that I'm running on 2 hours of sleep in the last 36 or so doesn't help.

The downward slip started this afternoon, and I have not been able to shake it for any significant period of time. I can shake it a bit while in prayer, but I've been unable to stay in prayer today - I've prayed often, but I haven't been able to pray long. I've talked with friends and relatives, and my wife. About the only thing that seems to have worked today is writing in my journal (which I just started Tuesday night). I guess the effort required to form my thoughts in a coherent manner helps to keep my mind from wandering.

Hopefully a good night's sleep will help. I think I've managed to run the full circle of emotions today, and some at the same time. Bizzare. Also got hit pretty hard tonight when I got to thinking about how much damage I did to my marriage. I've got to get out of the past if I'm going to change the future. God migh be timeless, but He can't do a whole lot for me if I'm stuck looking back. Besides, I'd hate to have Lot's wife's fate <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm hanging in there though. I'm not going to throw in the towel yet. My wife returns early Saturday evening, and I'm looking forward to both her return and the opportunity to start working on this relationship together. I've spent enough time in limbo, thank you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry if this is rambling. It's just been one of those days.

NOTE: I had intended to post this earlier, but I gave my wife the opportunity to look at it in case there was anything (factual information wise) that she objected to, and she didn't get back to me until this evening.

Ok…..hopefully I can make some sense here (I’m running on two hours sleep). I’ve just finished reading through all the posts in this thread through 9 AM US West Coast time.

First, let me state again that I understand that everyone here is speaking passionately from their hearts and experience in an attempt to help myself and my wife in rebuilding our marriage. I do not agree with the tone of some of the posters, but I recognize that the desire to stop this madness is genuine.

I will attempt to answer some questions that have been directed at me, clarify my position, and respond to a few things that really grabbed my attention. Before I begin, I would like to thank believer, vanasvegen, ManInMotion and shinethrough for their posts (there may be a few others, but those spring to mind). A lot of posts have come across, to me at least, as hateful. I understand that there is a lot of hate for the sins that are going on or have occurred, and there should be. But sometimes it’s hard to separate the hate of the sin from the hate of the person. Also FlukeBoy, who I’ve had e-mail exchange with. I do not have a problem with people who have an opinion different from mine, but I do not like them trying to shove it down my throat (ironically, that was one of my Love Busters with my wife. Guess I don’t like my own medicine, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

Ladysheep asked:

This one isn’t quite a yes or no question. The OM was a friend of mine (that is no longer the case). I met him through one of my recreational interests, and had frequent contact (e-mail and chat) with him in the course of that shared interest. This continued until 2 or 3 weeks ago, and I have left that particular recreational interest (not directly because of him, but because it was to high on my priority list compared to my family and therefore needed to go).

While our recreational contact continued, I stopped chatting with him immediately. I sent him one e-mail, telling him that I was going to focus on my marriage and would decide what to do about our friendship later (this was within 2 or 3 weeks of my wife admitting the affair to me). I had an additional e-mail contact with him after my wife came clean with everything that had happened (and was still going on, via chat and phone), to let him know that my wife had told me everything (he had told her that if he didn’t hear from me in 5 days, he would tell me). I also asked him to give me the details (not the play by play, just a general outline of what went on) so I could bounce it off what my wife told me. He was not willing to do that, but said he would answer any yes or no questions I sent him. I did not send him any, and have not contacted him since, except to give him a tracking number for something that he sent my wife that I sent back.

I have thought about it, but I do not think it will do any good. He was my friend before he befriended my wife, he betrayed my trust, and continued to betray my trust after I found out about the first affair.

Grownup wrote:

We both know, and admit, that we have individual issues to resolve, as well as our marital issues. I’ve already addressing the “leaving it all to God” comment, but rest assured that I am actively working on changing myself. This is not just a “I want to change myself to save my marriage” change, but a genuine desire to change because there are some parts of me that have been brought into the light that I do not like.

Our kids are innocent and do not deserve to be in the mess we have put them in. I want our marriage restored and rebuilt so that they can finish growing up in a truly loving family and have the best example they can of what a marriage (and a family) is all about.

UVA wrote:

UVA, you have been the most strident in objecting to my current plan. I wholeheartedly disagree with you, but I respect your opinion and your experience. I will try and clarify my current position/plan once again. If you still feel the same way, we may have to agree to disagree on this.

I am not actively or passively accepting this trip. I do not believe God is telling me to do nothing about it. I do believe that God is telling me to continue to work on changing myself, to continue to trust fully in Him, to continue to love my wife, to continue to be here for our kids, and to wait on Him and let Him deal with the trip and my wife. You are not here (you have been through this, or something similar, but you are not here in my shoes). You have not seen how ineffective my efforts in stopping the trip were, and how much has changed (in a positive fashion) in a single week when I gave that particular issue over to God. You have not seen the many positive changes in myself that God is bringing about.

I am not standing by idly waiting for God to work some miracle. I continue to focus on the things that I know I can have a positive effect on. I continue to pray, daily, throughout the day, for my wife. I continue to reflect on what I need to change, and discover on a daily basis either new things or more information on things I already knew about. I continue to do my best to show my wife my love for her.

Contrary to what you may believe, I do have a backbone. I have told my wife that I love her and will always love her, and I will always be there for her to the best of my ability and circumstances. I have also told her that if she goes on the trip (which she has), that the above 2 items will still be true, but I cannot guarantee her and I do not know if I can continue to be her husband. I will try, but I do not know. I have told her several times that I will not, now or ever, accept, condone or approve of the trip she had planned. And if it happens again, with this OM or another, we are done – straight to Plan B then.

I told her I would not take her to the airport, nor would I pick her up from the airport if she stayed the intended duration and returned. I told her I would allow her contact with our kids whenever she wanted, and if she wanted to talk to me I would be willing if I was emotionally ready to, but I would not initiate any contact with her. I told her that I wanted to believe her when she said she would be back, but I would not fully believe it until she was back.

Yes, she is there right now. And I have talked with her a lot while she has been there. The first time she went there (when the affair first became a PA), we had very little communication, and most of it was initiated by me.

Dr. Harley states that the BS cannot end the affair (short of taking actions of, at the very least, a dubious moral stature and most likely highly illegal). It must die a natural death. If you want to believe that I am enabling this (actively or passively), then try to view it as me doing some variation of Plan B, or a cross between Plan A and Plan B.

We have a very long way to go. I believe, however shakily or “not in sync with the program” we may be, that we have begun. I know I have, and I truly believe that she wants to (despite her current actions). I will not work on this marriage by myself forever, and she knows that.

UVA followed up with:

There are no benefits. I never said (or at least I never intended to imply or say) that there were. When she dropped the news on me that she was going to see the OM for 2 weeks, I told her that if she did that it would totally destroy all the gains (however small) we had made in restoring our marriage. In fact, it would most likely set us even further back. It would totally destroy any sense of intimacy I had with her (at that point, I had not yet realized that my sexual sin/obsession had already destroyed her sense of intimacy with me. Want to talk about self-respect as a man or ego? Try realizing that your own stupid, selfish, immature, immoral, unchristian sexual desires had degraded your wife, reduced her to an object in some part of your mind, and completely stripped her of intimate feelings for you and destroyed the one thing she wanted above all else – a monogamous relationship with her husband. When that finally hit home late last week, I felt like someone had just punched me in the gut. I was, and still am, sick at what I did and the incredible hurt I inflicted upon my wife with this.)

I have requested that when she returns we sit down together and draft a no contact e-mail to the OM, which we will send jointly from my account. I told her to tell him to expect it. I want the NC e-mail for my own sense of closure. She has agreed to this.

This trip will hurt me, it will hurt our kids, and it will hurt her. It will make our restoration and rebuilding more difficult. But it is not insurmountable.

Bigkahuna followed up MelodyLane’s comment about the two kinds of WS’s:

I’m curious as to what category you feel my wife does fall into?

I’ll try to wrap things up, since this is a long post. There are many reasons why we are in this mess today. I have contributed a lot to our marital problems, and I ignored or paid little heed to my wife’s pleas, warnings and other signs of trouble. Nothing I did or did not do justifies the affair – I know that, and she knows that. We have a lot to go through and resolve, and the affair will be part of that.

Right now, I am not feeling a lot of anger or hurt. I may be burying myself in the “work” of rebuilding our marriage, I may be receiving peace from God to get through the current situation, or I may be repressing it (or a combination of all 3). I do not want to repress it. Repressing my feelings is one of the things that got us here to start with (unresolved grief and anger over the deaths of my parents, especially my mom). I will be bringing this fear (repressing feelings about the affair) up with our counselor the next time I see him.

I have, and will continue, to change. I no longer shut my wife out regarding my feelings and thoughts. I am now totally open with her and do not suppress my feelings (at least not intentionally…I have a lot of bad habits to undo).

I am here, and my wife is here, because we genuinely do want to restore and rebuild our marriage. I realize that many of you do not believe that, on the part of my wife and/or on the part of me. I understand why, even if I don’t agree with all of your reasons.

It is my intention to continue to post and participate in these forums. I hope you will allow me.

Thank you all for your prayers and concern. It is my belief, based on recent experience, that prayer, numerous and constant from many sources, has been the biggest weapon my wife and I have had in even beginning to restore and rebuild.

brokenbird

BB, just a simple question and I asked Magpie the same thing.

As I'm an FWW and been there done that, don't you think what I have to say has some validity?

I truly want to help you both.

Jen

Hi KiwiJ -

You'll have to forgive me (well, you don't have to)....this thread got busy real fast, and I may have overlooked something you said. I'll take a look again and reply, though it may not be tonight, as I really should get some sleep.

KiwiJ -

I only see two posts from you, and they both dealt more or less directly with my wife.

I'm willing to listen to what people, including you, want to say and/or share, but I'm not sure I got anything out of the two I just looked at.

Of course, I can be dense as a brick at times (just ask my wife), so don't be afraid to point out the obvious.

I will have to say that this post tonight has been hurtful and helpful if that is possible. I have really felt for bb and his wife. I feel that it is helpful to hear how the bs thinks and reasons during an affair. It helps me to understand the term FOG in a way that I never have. I know of someone who had an affair and was truly repentant and sorry. When I found out my husband was having an affair I called her. She was so helpful because she helped me to understand how my husband was totally "snowed" She just kept saying when he comes out of this he will be so sorry but right now he is on Pluto. I don't mean this in a hateful way I just think your wife is off on Pluto. I feel sorry for her but angry too. It hurts so badly to be betrayed. I know that she hurts as well but continuing in the A doesn't seem to be a solution

what are the ages of your children?

Hi julieco -

We have a son 11 (hers) and a daughter 3 (ours). Our son knows we're having problems (and seeking counseling) because we've told him, and is concerned that we'll get divorced. I'm not sure exactly what effect it has on my daughter, but her behavior has definately been off the last couple of nights. Mostly the last couple of nights its been when is mommy coming home (last night - Wednesday - was especially bad. She threw a complete fit about wanting mommy home now, but it was also late (for her) and she didn't get to do something she wanted to do).

It sounds like your husband is still in the fog. I hope he emerges soon.

The 11 year old would know, they are so perceptive. Did you read the article on what children learn from an affair? It is really good. I don't want to sound uncaring about your wife, nor do I want to judge you as a parent but I am so concerned about you children and how this will effect especially the 11 year old later on. I have probably stayed in my relationship about two years too long. I understand how you feel though. I, after hearing your story, really thought about my relationship with my husband and if I were truly honest with myself would probably stay with him nomatter what if I had not seen how it was effecting my kids. Sometimes we "stay together for our kids" and sometimes we must leave for our kids. Or should I say let go for our kids.

It is so late an I am really tired so that may not make any sense to you. I have had a rough night with my 18 year old getting ready to go back to school and can't sleep so this is my therapy.

I hope things go well for you and I agree, "Who can cast the first stone"? It sure couldn't be me. I will pray for your children tonight as I pray for mine. The things is all of this makes a difference in how they handle there relationships in the future. My son is living proof. I know I will be a let down to many here but I believe divorce is in my future. Very near future. I am not saying we should put our kids before our spouse, but once it reaches a point of emotional and mental abuse we must do what is right for them. I hope all goes well for you. There is a novel called "Redeeming Love". It is a story based on Hosea in the Bible. It is a beautiful story of forgivness, love and patience. The fleshly side of me wants to say put her on the curb. But, the scriptures do use the comparison of Hosea's love to Gomer(prostitute)to Gods love for Israel. what an amazing story. It sounds like your love is so forgiving and constant. I don't believe there were children in this relationship until after her repentance. I guess that would be the difference. The author of the book is Francine Rivers I believe it is a love story but one in which I think you could see yourself and then step back and see where you may need to reevaluate your responses to your wife. One last thing about th trip and I am done. My son was in a class in school where one of the student's got the answere key to a test. a very honest student told on them and the teacher decided to set them up to go ahead and cheat but he changed the test in order to catch those who did. Well, my son cheated. I was heart broken. But I went to the principle and said I wanted my son to recieve his punishment and I was not making excuses for his stupidity but I was so hurt that the teachers KNEW these kids were going to sin and instead of saying I know what you are up too and i refuse to set you up to sin so i want you to know the test has been changed and because of someones honesty I have helped you not to make a horrible mistake. If you choose to cheat in the future that will be your decision but today I will help you overcome this temptation. that is how I feel about this trip. Don't help her fall to this temptation. Tell her no, if she chooses to go you have done all that you can. At least that will be an example that you wouldn't mind if your child saw. Say no not because of you but because of her and your children.OK therapy is over for me and I will TRY to sleep. My heart goes out to your family

By the way it was a Christian school so I was not expecting too much, I don't think. I said I was going to bed didn't I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WOW!

This reminds me of my DS when he had an addiction to drugs.

Oh he tried several times to "kick" it himself but the withdrawals were so bad he "never lasted more then a few days".
So, We(H and I) forced him into rehab he was under 21.
WAS he WILLING? NO Did it work? YES

He wanted to quit the drugs but couldn't on his own. He needed time away from the drugs to get a clear head and work on his addiction hmmmm could that be like NC?

If you really want to work on your marriage you need time away from the OM to work on your marriage. NC means NC.

BB - It was good to hear that you are doing okay. I know it must be awful for you right now.

I do have some concerns about some of the stuff your wife said that have nothing to do with the affair. Something about how you married her and love her no matter how much she keeps messing things up.

I'm just curious if there is a pattern in your marriage of her making "mistakes" and you rescuing her? Or am I reading something into her words?

Hi believer -

The only "mistakes" I can think of besides the current one is financial issues, which she has gotten much better at.

I wanted to give you all an update.

My wife came back tonight. The original trip was scheduled for 14 days (starting Tuesday, the 27th). By Wednesday, she had changed her ticket to come back on New Year's Eve.

This morning she called me (our daughter had been playing with my cell phone while I was still half-alseep and dialed my wife's number, probably because it was the last one dialed in my cell phone - said daughter had dropped the phone handing it to me when my wife called the kids last night). I asked her how things were going, and she said she was packing and going to the airport to catch a flight home. She got home a couple of hours ago.

I was incredibly happy to know she was coming back, and I also knew that the road ahead is long. I know that I have to carry the burden for some period of time. I didn't know how hard that would be.

I didn't even get a hug when I picked her up, even though she did miss me. The thing that hurt the most was when we got ready to go to sleep, I moved over to hold her. She told me she wasn't ready to be held. Ouch. Even in my worst dreams of carrying the burden, I never imagined that.

It seems like the more I try to meet her needs, the less she's willing to let me.

Assuming we get NC now, is this normal? What should I expect? (I'm in the How Should Affairs End chapter of Surviving An Affair). How do I handle it? What's the best way to show her I truly love her and care for her?

I realize that a lot of you disagree with me quite strongly on not taking a firmer stand on the issue of the trip. The trip is over now, and I'd like some input on how best to meet my wife's needs, and how to keep up the strength to do so. I see a lot of praying in my future, and it, to me, has already worked wonders from where we were 2 weeks ago, but what else would you all recommend? What worked for you? Thanks.

brokenbird

Please read THIS THREAD by clicking here . It is very important that you know where your current approach can lead.

I have been here for 18 months and I have never seen a successful recovery where the BS has been willing to discount the entry price to their heart for the WS. Not a single one.

Your attitude may feel right; you may be desperately grateful to have some shred of your wife back, but it is at the price of your dignity and any future for your marriage IME. Recovery takes a KNIGHT not a SERF.

You can win back a healthy marriage, but not like this. Do as you wish, you are at liberty to take any action you choose. Just know that suppication never works. Humility, yes, but supplication NEVER.

In case my story is of use to you, CLICK HERE to read it

All blessings.

BB listen to Bob. Heck, listen to the men regardless of the outcome they experienced themselves.

As you know, surely, your W's decisions have nothing to do with you and everything to do with you all at once.

What do I mean? I'll assume you wonder.

She watches everything you do. She's looking, desperately, for an excuse to hurt you.

Kissing her butt and glomming onto her is one of those.

Ask all the questions you need to ask. We'll answer, man.

GC

I think that is a difference between you and me Jen. You came here ready and willing to save your marriage. When I confessed the A, it was to let my DH know that I was ready to walk, that we had gotten to the point where I didn't sense that he wanted me, the kids, OR the marriage, and frankly, I was tired of fighting for it. I had reached my limit. So now our roles are reversed. And it's only been two months since I confessed, and ya know, I see change in him, but I have come so far from wanting it, that it's taking a lot just to read the books and make a conscious, willing effort -- again. To get what you want after you have given up desiring it.

Been away for a week - probably a good thing!

I don't think it is an ABERATION of character and I do think she knows right from wrong so she doesn't fall into either category.

But I don't KNOW her as such so I can't really say if it is an aberation of character or a character trait that has been with her all her life. Only you could answer that.

I was pretty angry when I drafted my comments. Angry but accurate.

I don't know if there is any hope for your mariage. There certainly isn't at the moment. There's a sig that someone here uses that sums it up pretty well..

-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.

Sums up your wife to a "T"

I really hope at some time she decides to give your marriage a shot. But she has made long term chances of success pretty slim - you will have some serious issues with resentment.

I wish you luck & sincerely hope you can use marriage builders principals to re-build your marriage & love for each other.

You were both at fault for the problems in your marriage - you may even be mostly at fault (I know I was). But your wife decided to have an affair. That part is 100% her doing. She decided to rub your nose in it. She has to take responsibility for the affair.

It's been a while (about 10 days) since I last posted. I wanted to give any interested parties an update on where MP and I are at.

MP is home - has been since Friday night on the 30th (she stayed 4 days, and 1 day was spent talking to me and 1 day was spent in the airport waiting for a ride home).

We are continuing our counseling, both individual and marriage. NC has been established (I am aware of the last time there was any form of communication between them).

We've been very busy since her return, both in terms of family activities and my wife's new job (she started Monday). We started family devotions right before Christmas, and my wife and I started our own devotion time New Year's Day.

I continue to work (with God's help) to fix the issues that I own that led to our problems, as well as praying with, over and for my wife on a daily basis.

I picked up The Power Of A Praying Husband (by Stormie O'Martian) on Friday, and read it through nearly in one sitting. For any Christian husbands out there, I cannot recommend this book enough. My wife read The Power Of A Praying Wife while she was at the airport waiting for a flight home.

I also gave my wife a copy of The Self-Confident Woman, after seeing Dorry's comments on it. She's at a very difficult spot right now, and still feels inhibited in coming before God to repent and ask forgiveness. Ironically, I have a pretty good idea of the spot she's in right now, because until a few weeks ago, I was in very much a similar spot.

I believe that she will reach the point where she can repent and ask God for His forgiveness, though I cannot say when that will happen. It took 4+ years for us to get to the point we're at now, and while it seems like a lifetime, in reality forward progress has only been going on for about 3 weeks.

Those of you who are inclined to (or have been) praying for us, you have my thanks. I ask that you continue to pray for us - I still have a firm and strong faith that our marriage will be restored and rebuilt.

There's a lot of [email]cr@p[/email] that we both have to deal with and get through, and we're just starting. I've come, through a lot of prayer, counsel and reflection, to realize that I played a much larger role in nearly destroying our marriage than I first thought a couple of months ago. I am not denying my wife's responsibility for her actions - I am merely stating that I recognize (at least some, if not all) of my issues and am committed to working on them.

brokenbird, I was just thinking about you this morning. Tell mp I will keep both of you in my prayers. Encourage her to come back here. We have a FWW thread we just started.

Hi bobpure -

First, I want to thank you for all the information you've compiled for BS on this site. My wife actually sent me a link to your toolkit just prior to Christmas. It has been very helpful to me (and to many others, I would venture to say).

I read the story you linked. There is indeed a valuable lesson in that, though I don't think that is the direction I am or was heading. First, I would never have allowed her to take our kids to visit the OM, nor would I have considered joining her on a vacation with him (had he not violated my trust and betrayed my friendship, I imagine that my wife and I may have spent time visiting him in the future, or him visiting us, though due to a situation he's currently in our kids wouldn't have been able to come with us).

If my wife had decided to continue on (past this trip) with the OM, then I would have looked at my options (such as separation and/or divorce, etc). She knows this - I told her, and I posted here as well, I believe, that when/if she came back, that was it. I would not tolerate anything further, with either the OM or someone else.

The ending of the story you shared is very sad, especially for the daughter. I can assure you that of all the things I might contemplate doing, suicide will never be one. I lost my mother almost 4 years ago to suicide - and we were estranged at the time. My mother's suicide is the point in our marriage where I turned into a bitter, angry man (because I did not deal with my grief and the guilt I felt in her death). I realize statistically I'm at a higher risk (especially since my mom's dad also committed suicide), but trust me - it's not an option for me. I will not orphan my son or my daughter. My daughter is the closest blood I have left (both parents are deceased), and I will not deprive her of her daddy.

I fully realize that a lot of people here think I'm appeasing my wife, or supplicating, or humilating myself. I disagree. I know my wife, and I know that there are times to push, and there are times to step back and let her find out for herself. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I do have a backbone. I also have a brain. My brain controls my backbone, not the other way around.

Over the last 3 weeks, I have done my best to follow God's will for my life. I believe that to be what I've stated before - to focus on making the changes in me that I need to make, to continue to love my wife, and to be there for her to the best of my ability. I also need to be there for our kids, as they stand the most to lose in this.

I have seen very real and very positive changes, in both myself and my wife, in the last 3 weeks since I really turned to God. Here's a prime example - when she told me that she was going to see the OM for 2 weeks to "say goodbye", she was absolutely adamant about it - even after our first MC session. Every time I tried to change her mind, it made her more resolved to go. When I backed off, gave it to God to deal with, and told Him I'd do what he asked of me and work on what He showed me to work on, I saw changes. In 4 days, she went from being PO'd at me and all ready to go no matter what, to waffling on whether to even go at all. She did go, but came back in 4 days - and about half of that time was spent at the airport (alone) or talking with me. I can guarantee you that if I had continued to push, she would have gone, had a blast, and probably spent the entire 2 weeks there, possibly longer.

As always, I welcome advice and comments. I do not, and never have said, that I will agree with everything or do everything people say I should. My guidance comes from God first, counsel and advisors second. And no, this is not some blind "God will fix everything" mantra. This is a decision, made by me on a daily basis, to trust fully in God in all matters of my life. And it's not easy. I have days where I doubt, days where I'm not even sure what to pray about, or if I'm even praying the right way, or doing the right thing. But everything I have seen, heard and felt in the last 3 weeks confirms to me that I am acting as God wants me to, despite the risk or illogic that it may appear to contain.

BB

Read my sig.

Beware using God as an excuse for cowardice. I tried that. Nearly killed me and almost lost my marriage. God REALLY strengthened my arm when I chose to FIGHT this demonic infidelity attack through prayer AND action.

All blessings.

bobpure -

I am fighting this through prayer and action. Maybe I'm just obstinate, or stupid, but I don't see where I'm not taking action. I do not believe I am using God as an excuse for cowardice, or anything else.

What action(s) am I taking?

I'm working on identifying and fixing the problems that I contributed to our marriage.

I'm strong enough now that I can actually function at work (I took 2 weeks off at the end of the year, and was non-functional for the better part of 2 weeks prior to that) - this is important because I'm the main provider for the family.

I am showing my wife that I love her, want her, and care for her in every way I can think of, especially the ones she identified that are important to her. I will continue to do this, even when it's met with little or no reaction (and some has been met with very positive reaction).

I am not, and will not, condone her actions or the affair. I am also not going to hammer her about it or throw it in her face.

I am praying over and for my wife, along with her, every day, throughout the day.

I have dropped as many walls as I can that stood between her and me. I am as open with her as I can be - and yes, that makes me vulnerable, but I'm willing to take the risk.

I am encouraging her in every good thing that she does (and there are many).

I am doing my best to row away from the rocks.

I have to admit, I'm somewhat lost and confused as to why so many people think I'm going about this the wrong way, or hiding behind God, or have no backbone, or whatever?

A lot has been posted on this thread, and my wife's. Would someone care to summarize, if possible, exactly what it is everyone thinks I'm doing wrong, and what I should be doing? The general sense I get is that I should have told her to go to the OM and not come back. What exactly would that have accomplished, with regards to saving this marriage? She went, she came back way early, the trip turned out to not be what she had planned at all, and we're genuinely trying to fix things.

So let's play the hypothetical. Let's go back to that dreary day in December when she told me about her plans. I tell her fine, go to the OM, but don't bother coming back. Then what? Hope she eventually decides I'm the better man and comes back in a month? 2 months? 6? A year? I guarantee you that she would have gone if I pushed, and if I pushed that hard she most likely would have stayed.

The 4 days she was gone was hard enough - not just on me, but on our kids as well. I do not know if I could have kept things together for months on end.

Maybe I'm weak. Maybe I'm a coward. I will admit that I do not want to lose my wife, or this marriage - I wouldn't be fighting this fight if I did. But I also believe that the course I am steering is the right course - for me, and for our marriage.

Answer me this, if you wish. She went, she came back. She went against my wishes. What have we lost, compared to what we might have lost if she went, stayed, got bored and came back? I honestly do not see what the difference is - this marriage has been ripped right down to its foundation, but now we have the opportunity to rebuild it the right way. Centered on Christ.

Is not one of the first steps to recovery for the affair to end? Is it not better for the affair to end sooner rather than later? Does everyone feel that it would have been better for my wife to go live with the OM for months and come home when/if she was truly repentent? Wouldn't it be better for her to come home, be with her kids, and work her way towards repentance without being involved in the affair? Repentance is repentance - it doesn't matter if it comes in the middle of the sin (as long as you stop the sin) or after.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and I'm not mad (a little annoyed, yes, but not mad). I'm just trying to figure out why everybody seems so hung up on what I've done (or not done), and so disinterested in where I plan to go in the future.

Where do you plan to go in the future ?

More eating crow ? Changing YOU and accepting HER hoping it will make her see you in a different light ?

Or will you expose the affair to anyone important in OMs and her life to test the strength of its bonds and to help keep NC ?

Will you set boundaries for yourself ( such as NC for ever, total transparency of WW activities and efforts to keep you from further hurt) and make it clear to you WW that violation of such will require you remove yourself from that situation ?

Don;t settle for crumbs, BB. Please.

BOb Pure*,

I tried catching you on Alphin's thread. Could you chime in on "DRD's" thread? He's in England also and perhaps could use your familiarity with the legal system over there.

Sorry for the threadjack.

Mr. Wondering

Future (from what we have discussed): a marriage built on a strong foundation of trust and love, not fear nor obligation (which it was in a way). A marriage where both of us are getting our needs met and meeting each others needs.

1) Changing himself -- yes, a good thing because I was not/did not feel wanted, loved, safe, cherished, etc. I couldn't trust him emotionally.

2)Affair has been exposed, was exposed over a month ago, didn't have much effect on me. Our pastor, my best friends, my mother, etc. all were told. What HAS had an effect is my husband's prayer and the prayers of our friends and family.

OM lives in another state, this relationship is LD, so being exposed had absolutely no effect on him except losing my DH's friendship. He is already in divorce proceedings and even his friends knew that I was married and coming to visit him.

3) Boundaries bird will have to decide for himself, but I understand that he has the right to protect himself and he has at times in the last few weeks.

4) Define crumbs.

I'm not Bob Pure but Crumbs would be settling for anything less than.....


as you so elegantly defined it yourself.

Oh, and Lots of love thrown in for good measure - in otherwords, don't settle for anything less than the whole package.

BB you said that without moving your lips ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Actually, that was my lovely wife that posted that (which I assume you knew, given the smiley).

However, the quote that bigkahuna highlighted is an accurate statement of our future goals.

I originally wrote this last night. Since it contained some details on our marital history, I asked my wife to look at it to see if she disagreed with anything. Except for a few spelling errors and one wrong word, she said I was good to go. So here goes.

----------------------------------------------------------

bobpure wrote:

Ok...I think I see where we're not connecting.

First, I'm going to give you more back story than you probably ever wanted to know, but maybe with this back story you can finally understand part of where I'm coming from.

For most of our relationship, I have had a voyeuristic side of me (exposed but never acted upon with my previous girlfriend). It was a turn-on for me to think of my wife having sex with another man, or with me and another guy (now this makes me sick, but I'm talking about then).

My wife never wanted any part of that - she wanted a monogamous relationship with me, no one else. There were, however, 4 separate instances of her being with another guy (to one degree or another) in our relationship; 3 happened after we were married. All occurred because of my constant harassing her about it, and every time it happened it made her sick and degraded. I was too wrapped up in my sin to really notice the effect it had on her, and kept telling her she wasn't cheating on me because I gave her permission, yada yada yada.

The last time it happened (#4), I had some mixed feelings because I had started to change my position on the whole idea. I even tried to give the desire to God, but it came back (yes, this is an addiction) and I didn't keep fighting it - I gave in to it. My wife reached a point where she would even engage in the fantasy during our lovemaking as it seemed to her to be just about the only way to get me going.

In the case of the OM, I did not want her to do anything with him, as he was my friend and it just wasn't comfortable.

In the course of our relationship, my voyeuristic addiction completely stripped her of intimate feelings for me, degraded her, and compromised her morals. Yes, none of this justifies having an affair, but it certainly casts things in a slightly different light, in my opinion. My wife has a weakness for sex, and I exploited it (I don't believe I was consciously doing this, but that was the end result).

I make no excuses for what I did. I did not begin to fully realize it until we started MC, and then it hit me like a ton of bricks. I have confessed, repented and asked God for forgiveness. I have orally and in writing apologized to my wife and asked for her forgiveness. I have no desire for this anymore, and will work with our counselor to get rid of it for good. I know its not entirely gone - I can feel it lurking in the back of my mind, waiting for a chance to pounce on me if I drop my guard. And that scares me.

Although I was a Christian, I was not walking with God in any coherent, serious fashion. Name any responsibility, duty or obligation of a good husband, and I can pretty much tell you I failed it completely (with maybe the exception of providing for my family materially).

Add to the above that I was not meeting her emotional needs, and I was an angry, grumpy person to be around most of the time (due to unresolved grief and guilt issues with my mom's suicide), and I think I've given a pretty good picture of where I was at.

My wife was ready and willing to walk when the affair happened. She had had enough, and was tired of waiting for me to get a clue and change.

So, on to your questions. More eating crow? I don't think I've eaten any crow yet. Somebody else on these forums pointed out that each person has their own limit, the point they won't go beyond. So what is crow for one person, might be a willing sacrifice for another. People have decried my wife's lack of respect for me, and told me I have to stand up to her to get her respect. She lost respect for me a long time before the affair happened, and like many other things (trust, love) you don't earn respect back overnight. I have bent as far as I will regarding her affair, and she knows that.

But what I really wanted to address was the following question from you. Changing YOU and accepting HER hoping it will make her see you in a different light?

I don't think you understand (or I have not adequately explained) what I'm attempting to do. I am changing myself first and foremost because I have learned things about me that I genuinely do not like, and are not who I imagined myself to be. I am changing myself, asking God to make in me a new man, because I want to be who He intended me to be. I did not, until very recently, have a real, personal relationship with God. I am now building that, and have engaged in a lot of house cleaning.

I do accept my wife, for who she is. That does not mean I do not want to see changes in her, nor does it mean I won't work with her to make changes, or ask her to make changes. She is aware that there are things she needs to change as well. I can't make those changes for her, but I can certainly encourage her, support her, and reinforce the positive changes I see, and point out (lovingly) the negative things I see.

I cannot make my wife love me. I do not want a wife who feels she is forced to love me. I can, however, allow God to make me into a new man, show me what He wants of me, and hope that is sufficient to give my wife reason to open back up to me. I see nothing wrong with that. The things that my wife has wanted from me are honest and good things - qualities that I should have had already, and should have shown. I am not making any changes that I do not want to for the simple sake of trying to save my marriage. I am making changes that I want to in order for me to become a better man, father and husband, and believe that those changes will also give my wife reason, hope, and encouragement to change herself and open herself back up to me.

Yes, I believe that I have to make the most changes right now, because of how much hurt I have caused my wife. I would believe that even if the affair had never happened, and I had heeded her request for us to get counseling earlier. She has to have reason to believe that she can risk opening up to me again; that won't happen overnight, and it won't happen if she no longer wants that.

Does that make it any clearer?


I don't care about the OM. It has been exposed to many people in our lives, some by me, some by her. Her mother knows, my sister knows, many of our friends (close friends) know, several people in our church know. It cost my wife her position in the Children's Ministry at church. There have been consequences, outside of just our relationship.


Boundaries have been set. NC forever was one of my stipulations for when she came back. I have seen the last contact (e-mail) they had. She copied me on her final reply without me even asking her to. She has uninstalled all of her chat programs. We have both agreed to no phone conversations with members of the opposite sex. I have uninstalled all of my chat programs (except for what I use at work in my job), though that was fairly trivial for me since I rarely chat online anymore.

We are working on total transparency. I have been and will remain 100% open and transparent to her. We talk on a daily basis (yes, we live under the same roof but its amazing how easy it is to live with someone and not talk to them at all).

She does not want to hurt me anymore than she already has. However, as we go through this process, I know I will get hurt some more, because frankly, the truth can hurt. But I would rather she be 100% honest with me, than try and protect my feelings. I do hope she can tell me hurtful things in a nice way though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not ready to remove myself at any one violation - that sounds too much like Plan B to me, and I'm just now really getting a chance to work on Plan A.

Where do I plan to go in the future. My goal is to be the man, husband and father God calls me to be. I intend to continue to seek God first in all things. I want to see this marriage restored and rebuilt, built the way it should have been the first time. I do not intend to settle for crumbs. My wife knows that I will not stay in a loveless marriage. But I will not simply give up the fight at this early stage because people are afraid I'm selling myself short. Really good, positive change has only been coming about in the last 3 weeks, and we've only been in MC for 4 weeks.

I hope this clarifies my position(s). I look forward to any comments or suggestions you may have. Thanks.

Hi, BB.

I don't want to wade in too deep since so many others are working with you.

I do want to tell you that I think that the others biggest concern for you is respect, yours for yourself.

It is normal for a betrayed spouse to self examine and assume some guilt for causing problems in the relationship. You caused plenty.

Regardless, your wife volunteered to do the things she did unless you held a gun to her head. She made her choices to engage in the lifestyle with you.

The reason I bring this up is simple. At some point in the future, you are going to look back at your decisions. Some of it, you are not going to like. I am talking about the current decisions you are making. In the future, decisions made now, are going to affect the way you feel about yourself. That will impact your marriage in the future.

Make sure that the actions you choose provide you with a modicum of self-respect. It WILL matter later.

Lastly, assuming more blame than is yours to answer for in the relationship now, will cause a lack of respect for your wife in the future.

I commend you both for being here.

All the best,
Gimble

BB,

I can see how your past actions contribute to the current state of your M. Nonetheless, as Gimble said, your WW freely chose to participate in your (sick?) fantasies. And more importantly, she freely chose to be part of the A. Regardless of what you did in the past, she is not entitled to engage in an A. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Since I bashed you in the beginning in trying to wake you up, I must also compliment where I see you doing good things. First, your relationship with God is the most important thing and I am glad to see that you are making good strides on that end. Second, you seem to have more of a backbone than I first assumed. That is good. You need it and will continue to need it in your sitch. Third, I commend you for wanting to do the right thing in saving your M.

I do have two concerns though that you may want to think about. First, although respect will naturally take time to be earned, you must be careful that your actions do not undermine that process. I think many here, including me, are worried that your actions may give your WW (FWW?) the impression that she can treat you any way she wants to or that she can treat you without respect. There is still a sense of entitlement in her posts, which give some of us pause in your case. I sense that that the situation is not as bad as this, though, given how you delineated your situation in your posts above. I hope I am right.

Second, I think you two may want to consider going into MC. Recovery will be harder than you two seem to assume, and you would want to get all the help you can get in rectifying your situation. Even though you may feel that you can do it on your own, I strongly recommend getting outside assistance to help you deal with this.

Lastly, I will keep you two in my prayers.

Best

Gimble -


It's funny that you wrote that today. I had another IC session with our counselor today, and some of what we discussed was along these lines. It started out talking about forgiveness, and he wanted to know where did I draw the line? I.e., how much of me was I willing to compromise in the name of forgiveness?

One of the things that has become apparent to me over the last couple of days, between posts on this forum, my counselor and talking with my wife, is that my wife's ability and willingness to respect me is paramount. I was taught growing up, and still believe this to be true, that you can respect a person's position of authority, yet not respect them (I have felt this way many times, especially with a few people that I knew when I was in the military).

While my wife may (or may not) be willing to respect my position of authority as her husband, what she truly wants is to be able to respect me as a person. She gave me a note shortly before Christmas; it was intended to be a note of encouragement, and in many ways it was. One of the things she discussed in the note were the things that she wanted from me.

Among the list, a couple that stand out were for me to be strong, and to be self-confident, and that she wanted me to be somebody she could respect.

I struggled some with the whole be strong thing - given that this was within a week of her planned trip, part of me was like how can you expect me to be strong when you're sweeping my legs out from under me? Now, having had some counseling, as well as many talks with MP, I realize some things.

First, when she dropped the bomb about the trip on me, my reaction was along the lines of turning into a needy clingy kid who didn't want to lose his favorite teddy bear. Of course, this is hardly a good way to get someone to respect you, let alone love you.

Second, my wife wants me to want and desire her, but not need her. By need her, she means the needy, clingy I can't function or live without you kind of needy. I certainly do need her - she completes my life in a way that no other person or thing can. I don't think that's a bad thing; but it can be taken to an extreme. Even in a great marriage, tragedy can strike that deprives one spouse of another, or alters the relationship (like a bad accident or disease) - the surviving spouse needs to be able to continue to function, at the very least for his/her self, not to mention kids, other family, etc.

Third, she does not want me to go from one extreme to the other. The old extreme was not being as involved in family activities as she wanted me to be (and as I should have been). The new extreme that she feared/fears I was/am heading towards was being uber-involved in family activities and things with her to the exclusion of anything else (other than my job).

I have always encouraged and supported her in having hobbies and friends outside of our family (usually the close friends were mutual friends or couples), and giving her time away from the kids (since she was until this week a SAHM). She has encouraged and wanted me to do the same, and I have not done so.

In her words (from our talk tonight), she wants me to be "well-rounded". I do have friends (not many, but some), but I rarely do anything with them anymore.

Self-confidence is a whole other issue, and its late so I won't go into it in detail at this time.

To sum up, I've been able to put together some pieces of my puzzle today, and my current thinking is that in order for me to earn my wife's respect back, I need to be strong, I need to be self-confident - and to be those things, and others, I need to maintain my self-respect. After all, who would want to respect someone who did not respect themself, and was needy and clingy and maybe even co-dependent (not entirely sure what that means) all the time? We have two kids for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> - I'm pretty confident in saying that my wife strongly prefers a husband, not a third kid.


I am curious on this. It's something that I think our counselor and I will be working on in future sessions. I guess my question is how do I balance self-respect, strength and self-confidence with reaching out to my wife in a joint effort to restore and rebuild our marriage? I'm sure there's a path there, but it's rather gray and obfuscated to me at this point.


Yeah...self-blame, going all the way back to my mother's suicide in 2002 is a problem for me. I'm working on it, but it's a slow (at times) process. As I've told my wife several times, the past is the past and we cannot change it. We can learn from it, and I believe that at some point we'll have to talk about it, but we can't change it. For now, I'm trying to stay focused on today and the future, and working to make our future better than we can have ever imagined or hoped.

UVA -

Thanks for your encouragement, and sharing your concerns. I appreciate both.


No need for a question mark there, UVA. Maybe an exclamation point, but no question. They were sick, immoral, degrading, sinful and 150% inappropriate within the context of marriage (or any relationship for that matter). I sincerely regret ever having them, ever bringing them up with my wife, and pushing her into them.

I have forgiveness from God, I hope someday to have forgiveness from my wife, and if I'm really fortunate I might actually someday forgive myself.


We've been in MC since 12/20/05. We've had 2 MC sessions, and 2 IC sessions each. We've been blessed with a very strong Christian counselor who is Christ-centered and very pro-marriage. He also specializes in certain problem areas (sex addiction being one of them).

I am, and will continue to, rely on God a lot during our restoration and recovery. I also realize that God places people and tools in our lives to assist us, and I will use them (or do my best to).

I can be stubborn and pig-headed at times. It often takes some time for things to sink in. On the plus side, once somthing does finally sink in, I tend to pick a course of action and stick to it.

I do wish I had listened to my wife when she pushed for me to seek counseling regarding my mother's suicide, and when she pushed for counseling for us. Alas, I didn't. But then, not heeding her advice has been a habit of mine since we were dating (early on when we were dating, she told me the clutch in my Mustang was going out, and I said no it wasn't. Sure enough, within a week, the clutch had to be replaced).

I do realize that she owns responsibility for her actions, and she does too. I also know that I cannot change her directly, but I can certainly, with God's help, work on changing myself.

Finally, thank you for your continued prayers. I have found over the last few weeks that prayer is a very (if not the most powerful) weapon we Christians have.

Sounds good.

Hi, BB.

Quote:
=====================================
I guess my question is how do I balance self-respect, strength and self-confidence with reaching out to my wife in a joint effort to restore and rebuild our marriage? I'm sure there's a path there, but it's rather gray and obfuscated to me at this point.
=====================================

- Don't be needy, but demand truth and honesty from your wife.
- Stand up for yourself when falsely accused, but be be quick to forgive.
- If you don't know how to do a thing that needs doing, admit it, then make sure that you learn how to do the thing.
- Be open and honest with your wife, sometimes even vulnerable.
- Be unwavering in your beliefs and in your plan for recovery.
- When you are proven wrong on an issue, fix your issue without complaint.
- Don't expect your wife to act as a mother toward you.

How is that for starters?

Gimble

Hi Gimble -

That's a great list for starters <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks. I do have some follow-up questions:


How do I demand truth and honesty from my wife without being pushy (or overly pushy)? She knows I want honesty and truth, and I believe she is giving it to me, but I will admit I have some trust issues right now (not as bad as a couple of months ago). In other words, what is the best way/method to "demand" truth and honesty, without being a jerk or a controlling husband or whatever?

As I currently understand it, my being nosy and following her around the house (in an effort to ensure she was being totally honest with me) is what prompted her, in a moment of frustration/anger, to decide on making the trip. In hindsight, there were probably better ways for me to handle my quest for honesty and truth. I'd really prefer to avoid doing things that set us back, if at all possible.


What do you mean by "thing"? Like meeting emotional needs, or something physical (like fixing a broken faucet)?


I have been 100% transparent with my wife over the last month or so. I don't mind making myself vulnerable (well, there is some fear there, but I am willing to take the risk). But how do I handle those days when I'm down, or on the (currently) rare occasions I have anger, resentment and/or bitterness towards my wife? I don't think this is the time for me to be open and honest about that, since she's not yet ready, able or willing to really care about that.

Got another question, regarding being open and honest. Kind of a follow-up to my previous one.

If she asks me how I'm doing, or how my day was (which she has several times in the last few weeks), what do I tell her? I'm especially interested in those times when I've had a rough day of it (regarding our relationship). Do I simply state that it's been a rough or down day and leave it at that? Do I go into specifics? Do I state the general answer and let her determine (by any follow-up questions) how much she wants to know?

Brokenbird, I know this is these are the hardest to conquer,
You will not be able to do this alone in the flesh, only God can help you with this one.

I had let anger and resentment take root and it wasn't good.
I really hope it's gone now. I have been praying that God will take those roots right out of me. Pray before you speak to her helps. And fasting and praying together with your wife will help.

May God bind all the wounds and be healed in your marriage.

Blessings,
Lady

Ladysheep -

Thank you for your encouragement. Right now I generally do not feel a lot of anger, bitterness or resentment. I usually start to feel it when I get to feeling down or blue, and know that currently my wife is not in a position were she is able and/or willing to really care.

I do believe that God can take anything away from us - even anger. I also know that I have a long history of suppressing my emotions (under the self-delusion of "controlling" them, but it was really suppression). It's one of the first things that started getting in the way of our marriage, and I most definately do not want to do that again now. On the other hand, I also do not want them to come out in any way that will hurt my wife or make her feel unsafe.

Brokenbird, Yes I understand I believe those are the main things that need to be prayed for and removed. All the roots that don't belong there, old wounds, etc.... Pray for God to protect you and your wife from self deception. If anything the devil wants to keep you both in disunity, coming into unity is going to make him flee, coming together confessing your sins to one another that you may be healed is key to overcoming. The Word of God is powerful, praying together, and bible reading, will bring unity, and the rebuilding of love in the marriage. Pray that God would put that care in your wifes heart again. Pray the God would put that love in her heart again. Ask God to work through the both of you meeting each others needs.

I say these things only because I know they are the truth and have helped my marriage.

Lady

Ladysheep -


That is so true. I have been praying with and for my wife since shortly before Christmas. She occasionally will pray with me outloud as well, but not regularly (yet). We started family devotions right before Christmas, and my wife I started our own devotions on January 1. I am also (albeit slowly) starting my own study, since my wife's new job schedule will preclude me from going to our church's men's Bible study.

One of my oft-stated requests to God is that He continue to restore my wife and myself to Him, and through Him to each other. Our marriage was not centered on Christ like it should have been, and that is one of my goals now. I honestly do not know how marriages that do not have God in them survive. I know they do, but it must be awfully hard at times.

This morning I set up a hotmail account for my wife and I (birdcouple@hotmail.com). The intent is to provide a means for any poster on this forum to contact us directly if they desire. There is of course no obligation to do so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you e-mail this account, please be aware that this is a joint account, and we will both see any e-mails sent there. I do not, at this point, intend to post either of our personal e-mail addresses on the forums, though you all are free to ask for them through this hotmail account.

I do realize that there is great concern (justified) about "private" conversations, especially between members of the opposite sex. That is not what this account is for - rather, it's a way to make contact with both of us, and if someone out there wants to follow-up one-on-one, that is fine, though my preference would be that any one-on-one be same sex. Thanks.

Brokenbird,

I just opened my bible to read, and it opened to the same word as your signature line.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.

Ladysheep -

I ran across that scripture a couple of days ago while selecting my daily prayer out of Stormie O'Martian's The Power Of A Praying Husband Prayer Book. It reaffirmed for me what John later wrote in 1 John 5:14-15 - "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of Him."

I've drawn a lot of strength out John 15:7 and 1 John 5:14-15 lately. It doesn't tell me that I'll get whatever I want or ask for, but it does tell me that if I am submitted to God's will and actively seeking His plan for my life, then whatever I need to accomplish that He will provide for me.

Of course, understanding God's will takes some effort through prayer, listening and studying His Word. And there's always the chance that we'll interpret our fleshly desires as His will, but at least we know that if we are truly in His will, He'll give us everything (and more, really) that we need according to His will.

At least, that's my take on it. I'm no Bible scholar, and have only really gotten on track with God in the last 3-4 weeks, so my knowledge and understanding wouldn't fill a thimble - at least not yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been reading, somewhat slowly, Surviving An Affair. I'm on the 2nd Rule of Good Marriages (can't remember the exact titles, but it's the 4 rules part).

I'm curious as to when recovery starts? The A is done, NC has been established, we're setting boundaries (mutual and personal).

Is there some magic moment that you can look at and say "A-ha! This is when recovery begins."? Do both spouses start recovery at the same time?

From where I sit, I think recovery is starting, but then I wonder (based on SAA) if I'm trying to put the cart in front of the horse...I understand the concept of the WS going through withdrawal, and that the amount of time varies based on a number of inter-related factors.

Or maybe it's just that I can be very impatient at times. I wish I could just snap my fingers (not that I actually can...never mastered that little technique) and have everything instantly fixed. I know that's not a realistic expectation (and would certainly do nothing in the personal growth category), but that's probably my biggest struggle right now. Being patient. Waiting on God.

Maybe it's just the random thoughts after a long week (not so much because of our marital issues, but 2 sick kids and a lot of work piling up in the office and not enough sleep). Or perhaps I'm too hyped up on caffeine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not down right now. Just impatient. All things considered things are probably going pretty good.

Bird,

It's easy.

Recovery for a marriage starts when both partners commit to the marriage and working on righting wrongs.

bigkahuna -


Hmmm....well, we're both committed to restoring and rebuilding our marriage, we're in both IC and MC, and we're talking a lot and spending time studying God's Word together....we know what the issues are, and how to fix them...

I guess I'd classify us as either near starting recovery or just having begun. I have to keep reminding myself that she's only been home for 2 weeks, and we haven't only been in counseling for a month yet.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is a good marriage built (or rebuilt) in a day. I just get so darn impatient sometimes.

It's kind of like going to the dentist to get a cavity filled. You know you have to, you dread the process (well, I do at least <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), it seems like an eternity while you're in the chair, but you also feel so much better when it's all done (and you know you will even before you go...but it doesn't make you look forward to the experience).

Anyway, time for a date with my beautiful wife. Off to dinner to celebrate her new job <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This put a smile on my face. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Bird,

Sounds like recovery to me.

You will find that time seems compressed somehow. 2 Weeks can seem like months.

Remember, they say it takes at least 2 years to recover from this. And that's with a NORMAL affair - whatever that is. Your case may take longer.

All the best.

bigkahuna -


Ack! I was really hoping (still am) for a shorter duration (see my remarks about lack of patience above). I do hope that during the recovery process things get better the farther down the road we go.

I hate to think of spending the next 2+ years kicking myself for what I did wrong, trying to cover my hurt and pain because my wife is not yet at a spot where she is able to or wants to care, wondering how long it will be before I have her love all the time, etc.

I do believe that a path to successful recovery will snowball (i.e., we will build upon prior successes as we go along).

I've just about finished SAA, and am wondering when we can start working on the Four Rules To Guide Marital Recovery (Protection, Care, Time and Honesty). And how to bring this up with my lovely wife. I'd like to start now, to be honest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I haven't read Managing Resentment and Restoring Trust and Renewing Marital Commitment yet. I know that Managing Resentment and Restoring Trust are going to be critical for both myself and MP. She is (understandably) angry, hurt and bitter that it took this A to fully wake me up to the problems in our marriage, when she'd been bringing them to my attention for some time now.

My LBs (selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, and angry outbursts - I swear when I went through those three chapters in Love Busters Dr. Harley was writing them specifically for me) have destroyed her ability to trust in me enough to open herself up and make her vulnerable.

Of course, I have my own resentment and trust issues to work through.

What a mess. Not the best way to start of a new year, but on the other hand at least we're starting it off determined to restore and rebuild our marriage.

If we're in recovery, does that mean I should move from GQII over to Recovery? Just kind of curious as to what the accepted protocol, if any, is.

BB, with all due respect to Bigkahuna, you might be on the very edges of starting recovery.

I would say 2 years is a pretty good appraisal. It's interesting that that's the time usually given for people who are grieving. When my mother was grieving for my father (who died), 18 months was probably the worst time of all and then she began the REAL recovery.

We're over 2 years now and I would say it's taken the full 2 years. We don't talk about it any more but I know it'll always be there.

You sound so like Bob Pure when I told him 2 years. He said "not on your nellie" or other English expressions to that effect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I started on the Recovery board and then moved here. I've always felt comfortable here. The Recovery board has it's own vibe - not a bad vibe - just it's own vibe.

Also, just out of interest, did Magpie read any of the thread that's been causing a fair bit of trouble on here.

I actually thought it should be required reading for WS's. The comments about "this is rare and this is different" are almost laughable they're said so often by WS's. It made me cringe and brought back quite a few of the dreadful things I said and did during my "foggy" phase.

I know it was troll-like but, unfortunately, it was very typical of how WS's are thinking in the depths of the fog. I must add I was NOT as vindictive as that. But I guess that's relative.

Jen -


I would agree with your assertion, given that MP's only been home 2 weeks, and admission of the affair is only 2 months old or so.



So it sounds like the next 2 years are going to be pretty bad? Does it get better during the 2 years, or does it take 2 years of hashing things out before recovery begins?

Sorry if I'm being impatient or asking dumb questions. I'm just trying to prepare myself as much as I can for what the next period of time will entail (not that you can ever be fully prepared).

It takes 2 years of hashing things out unfortunately.

6 months after you've just found out are notoriously bad. And they were for us. We decided to separate in the June which would have been around the 9 month period. That lasted a day but was a particularly bad time.

There was the other time when, out of the blue, my H went through my phone records and rang me at work wanting to know what the "odd" numbers were. I told him to call the number and it was just me checking my voicemail - as I had known it would be.

I bumped into the OM one day last year and talked to him for about half an hour (VERY well documented on the board) but I told my H the minute he got home. It was still a bad time.

Triggers for my H from movies, triggers from seeing a car like his (he has a vanity plate and I KNOW my H still looks for it).

It goes on for ages. Sometimes it peaks, sometimes it's not there at all.

I'm sure if one of us brought it up we WOULD talk about it, but there's no need any more.

Jen -


I'm not sure which thread you're referring to. Is it the Magpie thread you started, or Dorry's FWW thread? I've pointed her to both of them, but do not know if she's read them (with her new job and our daughter being sick we've been doing a lot of split-shift parenting and/or one of us staying home - I can read and post from my job, but she can't).

Jen -


Ack! Again. In some ways it already feels like its been 2 years. I have to say that I'm really not liking this emotional roller coaster...of course, who would?

Well, I'd rather know up front than have people tell me things will get better quickly (though I was becoming so fond of my snowball analogy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) and then have them take forever to improve.

My wife keeps telling me to take it day by day, and I try...but sometimes it's more like hour by hour or minute by minute.

I do have to admit, there are days when things are good, and I do see positive signs along the way. I'm just greedy and impatient....

I meant any thread by Ashley15.

Yes, hour by hour, minute by minute.

Gotta go, BB. My H and I own a bookstore and he has just brought home about 30 gardening and interior design books which I get to look at before they get put in the store.

ooooooooh, bliss.

BB,

Look, recovery is a process. As I said, recovery ***STARTS*** when both partners commit to the marriage and start working on it.

The ***PROCESS*** of recovery, they say, can take 2 years. I would add, especially in your case with your issues.

I agree with your snowball analogy too actually. It does get better and snowballs. But I still have dark days and so does my wife. There are well documented stages of recovery such as around the 3 month mark, a WS will start really wondering how the ****** they could do what they did. Around 6-8 months a BS may start to get really angry about what happened.

Nut you just keep your eye on the ball and KNOW that if you stick with it you WILL get through it.

I discovered my wife's affair in September last year. In my si, I ask if it's too early to say recovered. I sure feel recovered but I know there will probably still be some peaks and troughs I have yet to travel and knowing that I am looking at 2 years will help me to get through them.

Don't fool yourself bird. It's good that you are feeling better but Magpie seems to still be in the doldrums a bit. Your situation is about as bad as I have seen. You can't possibly be recovered in 2 weeks. Figure at least 2 years or even longer. Thank God every day for what he is doing. Enjoy the good days, get through the bad. Don't set yourself up for disappointment by thinking you have arrived.

Recovery is a marathon on a rollercoaster, not a sprint on a sliperydip.

BB, KiwiJ is absolutely right. When I killed squid's affair and she stated to show me commitment I was in cuckoo land ! Recovered ! easy Peasy ! But such was gratitude and relief talking.

Jen learned this wisdom regarding recovery times the hard way - as did I.

Its been 18 months since d-day, just over a year into recovery for Squid and I, and its as hard for me as any time since d-day right now.

recovery used to be referred to as a 'rollercoaster' on these boards, which was VERY accurate. Wild, joyful hghs, desperate lows. The speed we take teh curves slows over time.

I have come to realise that we spent much of the last year "hanging on" not actively recovering ( as Squids Mom was expected to die any day for ALL that year). This makes me sigh as I know some bady healed wounds need to be reopened soon for us to continue recovery.

Its not just the duration that effects recovery but how you spend the time, too.

All blessings

Jen, bigkahuna and bobpure -

Thanks for answering my (probably frantic sounding) questions. I always knew that we were in for a hard long road, but I can't help but hope it'll be shorter.

For now, I'll keep doing what I've been doing, and try to focus on the positives that I see.

Thanks again for all your honest answeres, and your encouragement.

A slightly new question.

Once NC is established, what do you do if the OM continues to try to contact your wife?

My wife agreed to NC upon her return, and understands its importance to me and us. It's been off to a shaky start, but she has been honest with me when I ask her about contact.

During our MC session today, I asked her to delete all the OM's contact information from Outlook and her cell phone. She did this while I was getting us lunch on the way home.

We had just pulled up at home when her cell phone rang. She didn't recognize the number at a glance (confused the area code with her cousin, which I have done as well), and answered it. Guess who?

Yep...the OM. Their last contact was early last week - she called him to answer some questions he had asked her. I was not happy about that, but I thanked her for her honesty and restated my stand on NC.

I am not overly concerned about her part of the NC deal, as I believe she will adhere to it (or tell me if it gets broken, so we can re-evaluate the measures in place). I am concerned about his attempts to contact her. She told me after revealing the last contact that she did not think he would be contacting her again because he was very mad at her.

I politely told her that I had heard that song and dance before from him in early December 05, when he supposedly broke of contact....and then called her 3 days later because "he couldn't stay away".

He had intended to leave her a voice mail (thinking she would be at work), so they didn't talk very long (less than a minute).

So...what do I do about the OM? Within reason, of course.

BB, the OM contacted me by e-mail 6 months after the A to wish me Merry Christmas. I must admit I DID reply (one line and this was before MB) and I told my H immediately.

There was always going to be a chance of the OM contacting me so finally my H exposed the A to his wife. When he spoke to her he said "your H is very lucky that I haven't turned up on your doorstep to give him a punch in the nose."

Needless to say I never heard from him again.

Bird,

All you can do is ask her to hand you the phone if he calls or just just hang up on him. Other option is to swap cell phones - you take hers, she takes yours. And make sure your wife doesn't answer any calls from someone she doesn't know on your home phone. Using voice mail on the cell to screen calls can work too. Even change your home and cell numbers.

It's not too hard - assuming your wife is 100% on NC it should be easily defeated by these suggestions.

Hi Jen -


Unfortunately, in this case, there is no wife to expose to (they're getting divorced). There are others I could potentially expose the affair to, but I'm not sure what good that would do, and at this point in time I think I would only be doing it out of vindicativeness, which is probably not the best reason (clear head and all that stuff).

bigkahuna -

The advice you give is good, and are things I have thought about.

I was able to talk with my wife briefly after work before I took our DS to Scouts. I let her know (without LBing) that I was very angry, but not at her. I was very angry at the OM for contacting her. I was also scared/worried, because of the threat he poses, and the setbacks contact can cause.

We were able to talk last night during our devotion time. We spent almost 2-1/2 hours talking about various things, in addition to the scripture we read. We both came away feeling that it was time well spent, as we were able to get some things out in the open between us.

We worked up a plan for NC...well, it was mostly (if not wholly) my plan, but she did agree to it. She understands how I feel about contact with the OM, and why I feel that way.

We are going to draft a NC letter (should this be e-mail or a regular snail mail letter - maybe certified?) and send it to him.

She will continue to work on her end of NC, which she has been doing and I have thanked her for. If she slips up and contacts him, she'll let me know. I have promised her that I will not get angry or yell, or do any LBing, though I may be hurt and dissapointed.

She will not accept contact attempts from him, and will let me know if he does try to contact her.

If the OM continues to try to contact her, especially after receipt of the NC letter, I will then contact him and have a little talk with him (no, I'm not going to get violent or threaten him). If he still does not stop attempting to contact her, I will then investigate legal measures, since I will view it as harassment (not sure how the US Judicial system would view it, especially since we're not even in the same state).

Switching phones, changing numbers, etc are all valid options that MP and I will explore if NC cannot be maintained.

As I said, right now I'm more concerned about the OM trying to make contact than my wife. She told me last night that she is trying very hard (and succeeding, from what I can tell) to not even think about him, because if she does she will be tempted to contact him. She told him this also.

I do not bear any ill will towards the OM (well, at least not most of the time. I do have my moments <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). He was at one time a friend of mine. I have forgiven him for his actions, but our friendship cannot be restored on this earth. He is too much of a threat to our marriage. And I do grieve for the loss of the friendship.

One of the things that came out of last night's discussions was the topic of forgiveness. Not forgiving others, but our individual ability to forgive ourselves for what we have done that is wrong.

Last night, my wife told me (in a loving way) that I had acknowledged, repented, asked forgiveness for and taken ownership of my issues that contributed to the state of our marriage, and that I needed to stop flagellating(?) myself for them and focus on moving forward in our recovery. She has a valid point, and I realize the importance of this - I cannot move forward if I continue to focus on the past, and by focusing on the past I run the risk of slipping into a self-pity party. All rather counter-productive to recovering, restoring and rebuilding our marriage.

So here is where I hope some former BS's (and/or former WS's) can help. How do I forgive myself for what I did?

Most of what I did wrong I can forgive myself for. But I am having an incredibly hard time forgiving myself for my sexual sin (voyeurism). I now realize how absolutely devestating this was to my wife, how it degraded her, made her feel devalued, unloved. I see the pain in her eyes.

In many ways, this tears me apart more than the A. I do not know if I can adequately describe the pain, hurt, self-loathing, guilt, self-hatred and anger I feel with/at myself for this. I know God has forgiven me, and I believe that my wife will at some point during recovery forgive me, but how do I forgive myself?

I just can't simply say that was the old me and now I'm a new me, a new creation in God, and leave it at that. I don't see how it could be that simple. It can't be that simple. Nothing that has happened in my life, or that I have done in my life, not even the death of my dad, hurts anywhere near as bad as this does.

I know that what I did does not justify my wife's affair, and I'm not trying to. But it was a huge factor in the state of our marriage, and it was so utterly wrong and distasteful, and I knew it was but wouldn't let it go. I know that I need to forgive myself for us to move on to recovery, but I really am at a complete loss as to how to do that.

My wife has similar feelings about some of the things in her life (current and past). Any advice would be truly appreciated.

The Bible talks a lot about forgiveness - our forgiveness from God, and forgiving others. Does it talk about forgiving ourselves? (Yes, I am that ignorant in the Scriptures, though I'm rapidly acquiring knowledge).

Bird,

You need to do a bible study on Hebrews 6 which covers the basics of the Christian Faith, among them, (and firstly actually) is repentance from dead works.

Bird, have a look at the service archives on www.ccc.org.au for the month of September 05 (or maybe October) There is a series here on Hebrews 6. There is a great message on Warfare - dealing with strongholds of the mind and the next Sunday morning repentance.

My wife was really spoken to by God through both of these messages. Have a listen.

If God has forgiven you (and he has) why not give yourself a break.

My wife does still struggle with forgiving herself and is suffering immense pain at the moment because of what she has done to OM's family & our family. It's a process I think. It's 4 1/2 months post D-Day for us now. She hasn't forgiven herself but remember this is a process - a marathon - not a sprint.

God Bless you both Bird.

Yes, definitely a marathon.

BB, you need to forgive yourself. Forgiveness is such a special, special thing. It was the complete forgiveness of my H that was the one, the only, the complete thing that helped me beyond measure. I was able to forgive myself because of that.

Occasionally, that horrible, horrible feeling of guilt rises up in me but I know where we are NOW and I can cope with it.

You know what you've learned - you know you won't go there again.

Bigkahuna, your name always makes me smile. I always picture a great big surfer dude or a Prince from Hawaai.

I've read your sig line. Can you imagine what it was like for MY H - an 18 month PA to deal with. He's a very special man.

Hi Jen,

I won't spoil the illusion LOL!!

Prior to my wife's affair I couldn't imagine dealing EVER with any infidelity.

My reaction to my wife's affair surprised everyone - even me.

I was glad I didn't have to deal with a full on PA - Very lucky and I really believe God allowed me to discover it just before she crossed that line. The week prior to D-Day he had booked a love nest for a day for them both. How lucky am I?

I really can't imagine the agony of your husband. God bless him & you both. God bless all of us trying to recover from these wretched situations. We all find strength we never knew we had.

Is KiwiJ from NZ, the land of the long white cloud?

Bird and Bigkahuna,
I went to this website and the behold, I was very touched to see that the message for Jan 8 is "Forget the Past"

This is the same thing the Lord has been telling me for 3 days straight. Monday night at a meeting. Yesterday the scriptures he gave me were.
Philip 3:13-14 and Hebrews 6:1, Luke 9:62 And again this morning on that website. Okay I'm getting it!!!! This is what God wants me to do. I even asked God yesterday to help me forget the past. Forgive and Don't get stuck in the past. How can we overcome if we stay in the past? We can't. He has forgiven us, He has forgotten, we are to do the same.

Focusing on God and Jesus, listening to the Holy Spirit, and the recovery H and I are in today is what matters. God is doing miracles.

We went from the infidelity, to his continually lying, to his getting an apt last week, had his things all packed. 2 hrs later his things unpacked, then canceled his apt. He couldn't stand to see the pain I was in, and thought his leaving would be best for me. I was so stuck in the things and pain of the past, God knows!!!

He has promised not to lie to me (friends helped me here, I had to go to members of the church about his lying it was getting so bad, and he got some rebuke). He wants to learn how to love me the way I should be loved and to be the spiritual H and father of this home. He has admitted and confessed many things to me. He has come out of some major fog and deception. He wants to renew our marriage vows. Go on a 2nd honeymoon. It's amazing the things God is doing.

There were prophesies in church Friday, and Monday that God is healing marriages, even at the last minute when things look the worst. BB and Magpie, yours is one of those marriages too.

BB loves Magpie

Magpie loves BB

And God love the both of you!!

Forget the past, stay in today. Your Forgiven.

As you continue Submit to God, resist OM (enemy), he will flee.

Blessings,
Lady

Bigkahuna - thanks for the suggestions, and the links to your church's archived services. I will indeed look at Hebrews 6 as well as the services you mentioned. I was hoping to get to them tonight, but don't know if I'll be able to.


I know I need to forgive myself...but it's hard at times. I found it fairly easy to forgive my wife, and even the OM...but forgiving myself is going to be a harder. I will continue to work on it though.


If I do, I deserve to be shot (or worse). I have prayed to God, on several occasions, for Him to continue to heal the pain and hurt my wife and I have both suffered....but I also asked Him to never let me forget it. I do not ever want to do any of those things (especially the sexual sin) again.


Ladysheep, thank you for sharing those verses. They were great, and really helped me to begin to at least see a path to forgiving myself.

I am slowly reaching the point where I can actually see myself forgiving myself for what I did wrong. It's amazing to me how easy it is to forgive ourselves for little things, even if there's a ton, but the big things seem to stump us.

Bigkahuna, Jen and ladysheep - I want to thank each of you for continuing to answer my questions, give me advice and encouragement. You all are true blessings, and I wish each of you continued success in your situations, and in life.

Thanks, BB, that means a lot to me. I've always thought that something good has to come out of what we've been through and I am always happy to help. My life is wonderful and that's what I always try to tell everyone here. There is an end, and it can be a very good end.

BigK, yes, the land of the long white cloud. I'm always impressed when someone knows that.

Last night my wife and I were talking, and she told me that the OM's phone call on Tuesday had really affected her, since she was not expecting any more contact from him. Since her return, she has been trying very hard to not think about him, and since the unexepected phone call he's been back in her mind.

I was not overly surprised that he called. He wanted to ask her if she had sent me some stuff via e-mail that pertained to their affair (she had, quite some time ago, at my request). He also mentioned something about e-mailing me, but she wasn't sure if it meant he intended to e-mail me, or was going to e-mail me if she hadn't given me the information I had asked for.

She understands the importance of NC, and can see what the most recent contact has done to her. I do believe that my lovely wife is committed to NC, but am of two minds about how to proceed, and so is she.

At this point, I'm not sure if he will contact her again...I can't get a clear "feeling" on this one. So...do we let sleeping dogs lie and not send a NC letter? Or do we send one anyway to clarify in no uncertain terms our position?

If we let sleeping dogs lie, we run the risk of the OM potentially attempting to contact her again (I doubt that he would contact me, and if he did there's really only one thing that I would care to hear from him).

However, on the other hand, if we send a NC letter I'm concerned that it may increase his desire to attempt contact (this may be an entirely irrational fear). At least with a NC letter I could, if further attempts were made by the OM, step in and reiterate our position, referring to the letter.

Also, is the NC letter best done by an actual letter, or is e-mail sufficient?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm not willing to take a stand, but that's not a case. I will take a stand, but I want it to be the best one, not the first one that comes to mind.

Send the NC letter. Make it very stern, direct and to the point, nothing nice, don't worry about his feelings. Then if he makes contact again get a restraining order. That should do it.

Eagle15 -

That's pretty much the point I'm heading to. I do have some concerns for his feelings, because he was my friend as well (and first). But not nearly enough to jeapordize our marriage.

For his sake, I hope he respects our wishes. I do not want to escalate to a restraining order, as it would negatively impact his current legal situation, but I will if I believe it necessary.

I would like some input on this NC letter. I based it on the examples linked from Dorry's Guide. I customized it some, mainly to reflect that the OM was my friend as well. It should be obvious that I want nothing to do with him anymore, but for the sake of completeness I wanted to state the obvious.

I will show this to my wife when she gets home from work tonight and see what inputs (if any) she has. Thanks in advance for any inputs/suggestions.

------------------------------------------------------------
[OM] –

We are writing this letter for one reason only. All communication between you and us must come to an end immediately. If [BB] and I are ever going to resolve our differences and re-establish the trust we once had, there can be no contact between either of us and you ever again.

What happened between you and I should never have happened. It was wrong and immoral. Friendships have been destroyed, integrity and honor have been compromised, and a marriage already in trouble was further damaged.

[BB] and I love each other and our kids. Our marriage deserves 100% effort from [BB] and I to make our lives together as happy, loving and fulfilling as possible. We will initiate no further contact with you, and will not accept attempted contact from you. We will be totally open and transparent with each other. Any attempts to contact us will be made known to each other.

We wish you well, and we will appreciate your respecting our wishes.

Sincerely,

[MP] and [BB]

Bird,

SWAP MOBILE PHONES IMMEDIATELY

The letter looks OK to me.

bigkahuna -

Thanks for the feedback on the letter. Based on some inputs on another thread, I've asked MP to write the letter, and then I'll look at it and make any suggestions I might have.

It really needs to come from her, and needs to be written in her voice. I intend to send it certified (or return receipt requested) mail, to ensure the OM gets it. That way, if my wife maintains her side of it (i.e., NC), we have more legal options open if we need them.

We did switch cell phones for one day. I've discussed changing our numbers as well, just as a precaution.

So Friday OM contacted my wife. MP told me about it first thing Saturday AM (in fact, she woke me up to tell me). I was glad she waited a bit to tell me, as Friday was a really rough day for me, and I had just reached some peace and calm right before she came home. I don't think I could have handled the news quite at that point as calmly and well (no LB's) I did the next AM.

Anyway, OM has, as I understand it, decided that MP is the one for him. I hate to dissapoint (well, in this case not really <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), but she's already spoken for - by me. This does however explain (to me) his earlier phone call, regarding whether or not MP had told me about a certain thing.

Turns out she hadn't. Now, based on what that thing was, I'm pretty sure (though I could be paranoid) that OM is going to do what he can to hinder our recovery and rebuilding efforts. In any case, if that was his intent, it failed. I am committed to letting the past remain the past, and focusing on today and now, so that I can do my part to make a better future for MP, myself and our kids.

In some ways, as I told MP last night, it's water under the bridge. Doesn't mean that I'm/we're not going to have to deal with it at some point, but I have more important things to do than dwell on the past.

In any case, OM is apparently willing to take MP any way he can get her (as long as she goes willingly), even if that means he's her plan B (not to be confused with MB Plan A/B). MP has chosen our marriage, and he knows this. She told him to leave her alone for the next 2 years. Not quite what the ultimate goal is, but we're getting there.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I told MP last night that she does not, and will not, need a plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some of this (especially the latest stuff with OM) would be downright funny, if it's wasn't real life....

So the current plan we're working on is that MP will write a NC letter (this will be the "So Long And Thanks For All The Fish" sort, not a check back in 6 months to a year - or at least that's my intention), we'll review it, and send it off. If he continues to try to make contact, we'll look at other options as they apply.

Meanwhile, MP will not answer any calls that do not have a name associated with them (i.e., any calls from sources that are not in her cell's phonebook, and OM has been deleted from it).

Now all I have to do is keep reminding myself that there is no value in going over to thump OM's melon.....even though there are times that idea has very much appeal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BB, this is a toughie. I kinda know what'll be going through MP's head right now. I was lucky that I was told in no uncertain terms by the OM that his M and wife were much important than me. I mean that, I was lucky. Having said that, he still tried to keep in contact.

I admire MP HUGELY if she is serious about the NC letter and everything she is doing. HUGELY.

Oh, go and thump his melon with my blessing. (Just kidding)

Hi Jen -


If you would be willing to share that with me, I would appreciate it. I know some of what is going through her head right now. She does still miss him, at least somewhat, and I know with NC that will diminish with time.

Right now, she's told me that she's frustrated with what's she's done, with how she has hurt OM, and that it took the A to wake me up to the problems in our marriage. I don't think she's at the point yet where she has much thought for what her actions have done to me (which I understand, but it doesn't make it much easier for me).

I do respect and admire her (and have told her this several times, and told our counselor at our last MC) for deciding to work on our marriage, and for giving a solid effort in regards to NC. It's not quite where I would like it to be, but I realize how hard it is for her at this stage.

She's also working on being open and honest with me, and I greatly appreciate that as well.

All in all, I know she's putting forth as much effort as she can, and I intend to encourage that. I am, at this point, much more concerned about OM's efforts to derail us than MP's commitment to our marriage.

She told me today (in an e-mail) that she's so emotionally drained right now that's she basically letting me lead. That's fine by me for now...I have told her many times in the last month that I have no problem if she wants to lean on me 100% for support right now. It's what God directs husbands to do, and what I didn't, until recently, do - lead.

Pretty sad, if you think about it, especially considering the fact that I spent my youth as a commissioned officer in the US Armed Forces. I was trained to lead, and I have experience in it.

Anyway, if you'd care to share any of your insights as to what my lovely wife is going through right now, I would be very grateful. Thanks.

I can't understand for the life of me why you don't swap cell phones with MP. Your M is more important than whatever reasons you may have for delaying this exchange. Can't you see that MP is drained and will continue to be drained every time OM contacts her? Your job is to do everything you can for NC, and that includes making it hard if not impossible for OM to contact MP. What are you waiting on?

UVA -

I don't, I'm afraid, have a good answer on that one. It may be, perhaps, that I'm trying to walk a delicate line between being overprotective and underprotective.

Yeah...reading that I can tell you're going swing a 2x4 at me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I didn't realize (or was simply too stupid...still) to realize how drained my wife was, until her e-mail (a reply to one of mine on something else) this morning.

I do feel that either swapping phones, or better yet just getting new numbers (I have no desire to talk with OM, unless he refuses to follow my wife's wishes) is the path we will need to go down. I do not think OM is going to simply fade away.

Personally, I believe that he is something of a manipulator (whether it is conscious or not I do not know). For example, and I shared this with MP last night, he blames her for the loss of his and mine friendship, because she told me about the affair.

Well, I'm sorry but as her husband, I had a right to know. He did not want her to tell me, but she even told him that if I asked her to her face, she would not lie to me.

In any case, the loss of my friendship is a direct consequence of the actions he chose to take. He did not have to have an affair with my wife.

I digress. You make a valid point UVA. MP came home early from work tonight as she did not feel well at all, and went to bed before we could talk (I was busy with DD's bed time routine).

I will bring up the changing numbers idea again tomorrow AM. I don't know how she'll react to it, but if I were to guess the only real issue for her would be that she's had that number for years, so lots of friends, family and business associates have it. Of course, that's not a good reason to hang on to it at the risk of NC.

It's late and I should be in bed (still up trying to figure out what book of the Bible to study next...Hebrews or 1 John...).

Anyway, thanks for the gentle kick in the butt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bird,

It's enough to just swap phones. That way you don't lose any contact you want. You just give legitimate callers the new number (yours) so they can call your wife. Plus you will know if OM tries to contact. Also les him know how serious you both are.

Oh and by all means comfort yourself with the fantasy of beating the s$%t out of OM. Works for me.

bigkahuna -


Oh...I will admit that there are times I get to thinking about it. I'm generally trying to avoid fantasies of any sort right now, but that one has a tendency to show up from time to time.

When OM called a week ago, I was really, really mad. I found myself wishing somewhat that dueling was still allowed. I would have been happy to show OM what it means to be qualified "Expert" on a pistol by the US military <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I would have had a perfect score the last time I qualified, except I was thinking .45 when I was actually shooting a 9mm, and jacked one round out of the chamber. Ooops).

Anyway, that's all I'll say on that. It's probably rather counter-productive, and as I said above my energy is better spent elsewhere. There are still days though....but that's what the gym is for <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Or a real good physical game of basketball...

Time for another update, for those following along (if anyone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Last week, MP asked me why I didn't have (or didn't appear to have) any consequences to back up my boundaries. That was a good question.

Short answer, I didn't when I set them in place back in late December. I had actually begun thinking of some about a week before she asked me about them.

In coming up with consequences (i.e., actions I would take if she did not meet my boundaries), I wanted to make sure they weren't knee-jerk reactions, vindicative, or have the appearance of an ultimatum. More along the lines of, if you follow course A, I have choices B and C, and I will choose C (for example).

NC has been a struggle. Last night I came home intending to clearly define my boundaries and the consequences. I got home, and before dinner she asked me how I was feeling.

I said I was fine. Then she paused and told me that OM had asked permission to call her, and she said OK. They talked for 45 minutes. (Note here...I was happy that she told me, as there had been dishonesty last week about contact).

She then told me that at the end of the conversation, he told her to never contact him again.

Well....that kind of threw me for a bit. After the kids were asleep, I decided to presented the boundary conditions (regarding no contact and 100% honesty), because I'm placing the responsibility for NC on her shoulders, though I will help in any way can.

The consequence? The frist one - I would terminate our internet connection and quite possiblyl her cell phone, because I am no longer willing to fund her affair, even if it is primarily EA at this point.

I asked her if she had any questions or comments, and she said no questions, and it sounded fair to her.

I would like to believe that OM will keep himself out of the picture, but I've heard this line from him before (well, it wasn't that exact line, but he was going to stop talking to her) and he contacted her a few days later.

I have been learning and growing a lot in the last couple of months, and the last couple of weeks especially.

I have learned:

1. I cannot control other people; I can control how I react to the choices they make.

2. There is nothing wrong in setting clear boundaries with consequences, as long as the consequences are not punishment or a way to get back at someone.

3. You can be too aggressive in Plan A (trying to meet all of your spouse's ENs all the time at every opportunity), which can have the opposite result of what you intended. I.e., you can "smother" your spouse (or as MP put it, "overwhelm").

4. For me, at least, it is amazing at the sheer number of ways that a husband can give the impression of being "needy" (in a clingy way) without even intending too.

5. Finally, from a spiritual side...trusting 100% in God all the time is really, really, really, really hard! That and having patience.

So there's the update. MP is working on a NC letter, we are (still) in MC and IC with a strong Christian, pro-marriage counselor, and I'm working very hard on being a strong, confident person willing to meet my wife's needs without going overboard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This journey is a lot harder than I thought it would be, but I have to keep reminding myself that she's only been home for 7 weeks. At the very least, I have become stronger and am becoming more self-confident, two of the things she said she wants in/from me. I hope to continue on this path and become both a better person and have a recovered, restored and rebuilt marriage.

I know it's hard, but I see a lot of promises for you and MP. I will keep you in my prayers.

Thanks UVA. It is hard, but I try to keep a positive outlook. MP does want to keep moving forward in rebuilding our marriage and see where it takes us, even though she doesn't have as much confidence (at this point, at least) that we will succeed as I do.

I've had a lot of growth in my walk with God, but I still have a long ways to go. It's kind of funny - today on the radio (Air1) the verse of the day was Philippians 4:6...I heard it twice. And tonight when I was reading our DD her bedtime stories, the verse was quoted (but the reference not given) in one of the stories. It seems to be a good fit for where I am right now:

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." (NIV)

I need to work on the anxious part, and the thanksgiving. I've got the request thing down real good though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This weekend we went camping as a family. MP and I (and the kids) enjoyed ourselves - it was the first family vacation we'd done in a very long time...too long.

The only down-side was our DD's atrocious behavior, but I managed to stay pretty calm, with some help from my wife.

Did manage to blow it once we got home though. After we got home and our stuff unloaded and put away, and the kids in bed asleep, MP wanted to take a bath. I told her she could take it alone if she wanted downtime, or I could join her after a while if she wanted me to.

I fell asleep waiting for her. Then I got up and took care of some laundry. She was out of the bath after 45 minutes, and said she'd asked me twice if I wanted to join her, but I was either asleep or didn't hear her (the door was closed to keep the heat in).

I got pissy about it (one of my patented LB's), and pretty much derailed the rest of our evening. Things were better this morning, at least.

I'm pretty bummed. I realize, on one level, that there will be bumps in the road. I also feel like (on another level) that I cannot afford to make any mistakes. Yes, I know that's an unrealistic expectation. But it's bumming none the less.

I know better than this. I even knew it while I was being pissy. I don't know why I can't stop myself, especially when I know better. We have more important fish to fry besides me getting pissy when I feel I've been slighted by her. There are days (like last night) when I just want to step outside myself, slap me real hard, and say "Grow up, you idiot!".

I have mentioned how much I hate rollercoasters, be they real or emotional?

Lighten up on yourself bird. An ocasional lapse isn't going to destroy your marriage. We all make mistakes.

Time for another infrequent update.

It's been a stressful week. MP and I had MC on Tuesday, and the counselor really pushed for me to put my consequences in place for my boundaries, and pushed MP to commit one way or the other (to work on or not work on the marriage).

We didn't get a chance to talk until last night (Wednesday). She went out to get a break from our DD, and got back about 1 AM. She had 3 things for me.

1. The NC Letter, which I have and will mail tomorrow. The OM has already told MP to never contact him again (a couple of weeks ago), and I believe there has been no contact since.

2. The stuff I asked of her to meet my boundary conditions and begin to rebuild my trust in her.

3. A letter describing her current emotions, and pointing out a couple of spots in the course of the affair where my actions, intentionally or not, led her to believe that I didn't love her (by not appearing strong and firm, or by indicating that it took someone else showing an interest in her to make me want her). Those are her feelings/perceptions on that matter, and I accept them as valid, without saying I agree with them.

She also stated that she recognizes that I am growing and changing, but she is asking for a minimum 6 month separation so she can get to know the new me without having reminders of the old me pop up all the time when she looks at me.

Any thoughts on that one? I'm generally opposed to separations, for the simple reason that you can easily fall prey to the "out of sight, out of mind" syndrome. If it's a tightly structured separation, with a clear goal and clearly defined steps to reach that goal, in conjuction with continued counseling, then I can see where it would work.

I understand how deeply she has been hurt by my past actions and inactions, and I can see how a bit of space could help us both to start healing. I can also see the other side, of no healing happening and drifting farther apart.

We're not talking a Plan B here. The intent, as I understand it from our limited discussions, would be to go back to a courtship/dating phase, to get to know each other all over again and rediscover what we've forgotten and discover the things that we never did the first time.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.