Actually, that was my lovely wife that posted that (which I assume you knew, given the smiley).

However, the quote that bigkahuna highlighted is an accurate statement of our future goals.

I originally wrote this last night. Since it contained some details on our marital history, I asked my wife to look at it to see if she disagreed with anything. Except for a few spelling errors and one wrong word, she said I was good to go. So here goes.

----------------------------------------------------------

bobpure wrote:

Ok...I think I see where we're not connecting.

First, I'm going to give you more back story than you probably ever wanted to know, but maybe with this back story you can finally understand part of where I'm coming from.

For most of our relationship, I have had a voyeuristic side of me (exposed but never acted upon with my previous girlfriend). It was a turn-on for me to think of my wife having sex with another man, or with me and another guy (now this makes me sick, but I'm talking about then).

My wife never wanted any part of that - she wanted a monogamous relationship with me, no one else. There were, however, 4 separate instances of her being with another guy (to one degree or another) in our relationship; 3 happened after we were married. All occurred because of my constant harassing her about it, and every time it happened it made her sick and degraded. I was too wrapped up in my sin to really notice the effect it had on her, and kept telling her she wasn't cheating on me because I gave her permission, yada yada yada.

The last time it happened (#4), I had some mixed feelings because I had started to change my position on the whole idea. I even tried to give the desire to God, but it came back (yes, this is an addiction) and I didn't keep fighting it - I gave in to it. My wife reached a point where she would even engage in the fantasy during our lovemaking as it seemed to her to be just about the only way to get me going.

In the case of the OM, I did not want her to do anything with him, as he was my friend and it just wasn't comfortable.

In the course of our relationship, my voyeuristic addiction completely stripped her of intimate feelings for me, degraded her, and compromised her morals. Yes, none of this justifies having an affair, but it certainly casts things in a slightly different light, in my opinion. My wife has a weakness for sex, and I exploited it (I don't believe I was consciously doing this, but that was the end result).

I make no excuses for what I did. I did not begin to fully realize it until we started MC, and then it hit me like a ton of bricks. I have confessed, repented and asked God for forgiveness. I have orally and in writing apologized to my wife and asked for her forgiveness. I have no desire for this anymore, and will work with our counselor to get rid of it for good. I know its not entirely gone - I can feel it lurking in the back of my mind, waiting for a chance to pounce on me if I drop my guard. And that scares me.

Although I was a Christian, I was not walking with God in any coherent, serious fashion. Name any responsibility, duty or obligation of a good husband, and I can pretty much tell you I failed it completely (with maybe the exception of providing for my family materially).

Add to the above that I was not meeting her emotional needs, and I was an angry, grumpy person to be around most of the time (due to unresolved grief and guilt issues with my mom's suicide), and I think I've given a pretty good picture of where I was at.

My wife was ready and willing to walk when the affair happened. She had had enough, and was tired of waiting for me to get a clue and change.

So, on to your questions. More eating crow? I don't think I've eaten any crow yet. Somebody else on these forums pointed out that each person has their own limit, the point they won't go beyond. So what is crow for one person, might be a willing sacrifice for another. People have decried my wife's lack of respect for me, and told me I have to stand up to her to get her respect. She lost respect for me a long time before the affair happened, and like many other things (trust, love) you don't earn respect back overnight. I have bent as far as I will regarding her affair, and she knows that.

But what I really wanted to address was the following question from you. Changing YOU and accepting HER hoping it will make her see you in a different light?

I don't think you understand (or I have not adequately explained) what I'm attempting to do. I am changing myself first and foremost because I have learned things about me that I genuinely do not like, and are not who I imagined myself to be. I am changing myself, asking God to make in me a new man, because I want to be who He intended me to be. I did not, until very recently, have a real, personal relationship with God. I am now building that, and have engaged in a lot of house cleaning.

I do accept my wife, for who she is. That does not mean I do not want to see changes in her, nor does it mean I won't work with her to make changes, or ask her to make changes. She is aware that there are things she needs to change as well. I can't make those changes for her, but I can certainly encourage her, support her, and reinforce the positive changes I see, and point out (lovingly) the negative things I see.

I cannot make my wife love me. I do not want a wife who feels she is forced to love me. I can, however, allow God to make me into a new man, show me what He wants of me, and hope that is sufficient to give my wife reason to open back up to me. I see nothing wrong with that. The things that my wife has wanted from me are honest and good things - qualities that I should have had already, and should have shown. I am not making any changes that I do not want to for the simple sake of trying to save my marriage. I am making changes that I want to in order for me to become a better man, father and husband, and believe that those changes will also give my wife reason, hope, and encouragement to change herself and open herself back up to me.

Yes, I believe that I have to make the most changes right now, because of how much hurt I have caused my wife. I would believe that even if the affair had never happened, and I had heeded her request for us to get counseling earlier. She has to have reason to believe that she can risk opening up to me again; that won't happen overnight, and it won't happen if she no longer wants that.

Does that make it any clearer?


I don't care about the OM. It has been exposed to many people in our lives, some by me, some by her. Her mother knows, my sister knows, many of our friends (close friends) know, several people in our church know. It cost my wife her position in the Children's Ministry at church. There have been consequences, outside of just our relationship.


Boundaries have been set. NC forever was one of my stipulations for when she came back. I have seen the last contact (e-mail) they had. She copied me on her final reply without me even asking her to. She has uninstalled all of her chat programs. We have both agreed to no phone conversations with members of the opposite sex. I have uninstalled all of my chat programs (except for what I use at work in my job), though that was fairly trivial for me since I rarely chat online anymore.

We are working on total transparency. I have been and will remain 100% open and transparent to her. We talk on a daily basis (yes, we live under the same roof but its amazing how easy it is to live with someone and not talk to them at all).

She does not want to hurt me anymore than she already has. However, as we go through this process, I know I will get hurt some more, because frankly, the truth can hurt. But I would rather she be 100% honest with me, than try and protect my feelings. I do hope she can tell me hurtful things in a nice way though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not ready to remove myself at any one violation - that sounds too much like Plan B to me, and I'm just now really getting a chance to work on Plan A.

Where do I plan to go in the future. My goal is to be the man, husband and father God calls me to be. I intend to continue to seek God first in all things. I want to see this marriage restored and rebuilt, built the way it should have been the first time. I do not intend to settle for crumbs. My wife knows that I will not stay in a loveless marriage. But I will not simply give up the fight at this early stage because people are afraid I'm selling myself short. Really good, positive change has only been coming about in the last 3 weeks, and we've only been in MC for 4 weeks.

I hope this clarifies my position(s). I look forward to any comments or suggestions you may have. Thanks.

Hi, BB.

I don't want to wade in too deep since so many others are working with you.

I do want to tell you that I think that the others biggest concern for you is respect, yours for yourself.

It is normal for a betrayed spouse to self examine and assume some guilt for causing problems in the relationship. You caused plenty.

Regardless, your wife volunteered to do the things she did unless you held a gun to her head. She made her choices to engage in the lifestyle with you.

The reason I bring this up is simple. At some point in the future, you are going to look back at your decisions. Some of it, you are not going to like. I am talking about the current decisions you are making. In the future, decisions made now, are going to affect the way you feel about yourself. That will impact your marriage in the future.

Make sure that the actions you choose provide you with a modicum of self-respect. It WILL matter later.

Lastly, assuming more blame than is yours to answer for in the relationship now, will cause a lack of respect for your wife in the future.

I commend you both for being here.

All the best,
Gimble

BB,

I can see how your past actions contribute to the current state of your M. Nonetheless, as Gimble said, your WW freely chose to participate in your (sick?) fantasies. And more importantly, she freely chose to be part of the A. Regardless of what you did in the past, she is not entitled to engage in an A. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Since I bashed you in the beginning in trying to wake you up, I must also compliment where I see you doing good things. First, your relationship with God is the most important thing and I am glad to see that you are making good strides on that end. Second, you seem to have more of a backbone than I first assumed. That is good. You need it and will continue to need it in your sitch. Third, I commend you for wanting to do the right thing in saving your M.

I do have two concerns though that you may want to think about. First, although respect will naturally take time to be earned, you must be careful that your actions do not undermine that process. I think many here, including me, are worried that your actions may give your WW (FWW?) the impression that she can treat you any way she wants to or that she can treat you without respect. There is still a sense of entitlement in her posts, which give some of us pause in your case. I sense that that the situation is not as bad as this, though, given how you delineated your situation in your posts above. I hope I am right.

Second, I think you two may want to consider going into MC. Recovery will be harder than you two seem to assume, and you would want to get all the help you can get in rectifying your situation. Even though you may feel that you can do it on your own, I strongly recommend getting outside assistance to help you deal with this.

Lastly, I will keep you two in my prayers.

Best

Gimble -


It's funny that you wrote that today. I had another IC session with our counselor today, and some of what we discussed was along these lines. It started out talking about forgiveness, and he wanted to know where did I draw the line? I.e., how much of me was I willing to compromise in the name of forgiveness?

One of the things that has become apparent to me over the last couple of days, between posts on this forum, my counselor and talking with my wife, is that my wife's ability and willingness to respect me is paramount. I was taught growing up, and still believe this to be true, that you can respect a person's position of authority, yet not respect them (I have felt this way many times, especially with a few people that I knew when I was in the military).

While my wife may (or may not) be willing to respect my position of authority as her husband, what she truly wants is to be able to respect me as a person. She gave me a note shortly before Christmas; it was intended to be a note of encouragement, and in many ways it was. One of the things she discussed in the note were the things that she wanted from me.

Among the list, a couple that stand out were for me to be strong, and to be self-confident, and that she wanted me to be somebody she could respect.

I struggled some with the whole be strong thing - given that this was within a week of her planned trip, part of me was like how can you expect me to be strong when you're sweeping my legs out from under me? Now, having had some counseling, as well as many talks with MP, I realize some things.

First, when she dropped the bomb about the trip on me, my reaction was along the lines of turning into a needy clingy kid who didn't want to lose his favorite teddy bear. Of course, this is hardly a good way to get someone to respect you, let alone love you.

Second, my wife wants me to want and desire her, but not need her. By need her, she means the needy, clingy I can't function or live without you kind of needy. I certainly do need her - she completes my life in a way that no other person or thing can. I don't think that's a bad thing; but it can be taken to an extreme. Even in a great marriage, tragedy can strike that deprives one spouse of another, or alters the relationship (like a bad accident or disease) - the surviving spouse needs to be able to continue to function, at the very least for his/her self, not to mention kids, other family, etc.

Third, she does not want me to go from one extreme to the other. The old extreme was not being as involved in family activities as she wanted me to be (and as I should have been). The new extreme that she feared/fears I was/am heading towards was being uber-involved in family activities and things with her to the exclusion of anything else (other than my job).

I have always encouraged and supported her in having hobbies and friends outside of our family (usually the close friends were mutual friends or couples), and giving her time away from the kids (since she was until this week a SAHM). She has encouraged and wanted me to do the same, and I have not done so.

In her words (from our talk tonight), she wants me to be "well-rounded". I do have friends (not many, but some), but I rarely do anything with them anymore.

Self-confidence is a whole other issue, and its late so I won't go into it in detail at this time.

To sum up, I've been able to put together some pieces of my puzzle today, and my current thinking is that in order for me to earn my wife's respect back, I need to be strong, I need to be self-confident - and to be those things, and others, I need to maintain my self-respect. After all, who would want to respect someone who did not respect themself, and was needy and clingy and maybe even co-dependent (not entirely sure what that means) all the time? We have two kids for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> - I'm pretty confident in saying that my wife strongly prefers a husband, not a third kid.


I am curious on this. It's something that I think our counselor and I will be working on in future sessions. I guess my question is how do I balance self-respect, strength and self-confidence with reaching out to my wife in a joint effort to restore and rebuild our marriage? I'm sure there's a path there, but it's rather gray and obfuscated to me at this point.


Yeah...self-blame, going all the way back to my mother's suicide in 2002 is a problem for me. I'm working on it, but it's a slow (at times) process. As I've told my wife several times, the past is the past and we cannot change it. We can learn from it, and I believe that at some point we'll have to talk about it, but we can't change it. For now, I'm trying to stay focused on today and the future, and working to make our future better than we can have ever imagined or hoped.

UVA -

Thanks for your encouragement, and sharing your concerns. I appreciate both.


No need for a question mark there, UVA. Maybe an exclamation point, but no question. They were sick, immoral, degrading, sinful and 150% inappropriate within the context of marriage (or any relationship for that matter). I sincerely regret ever having them, ever bringing them up with my wife, and pushing her into them.

I have forgiveness from God, I hope someday to have forgiveness from my wife, and if I'm really fortunate I might actually someday forgive myself.


We've been in MC since 12/20/05. We've had 2 MC sessions, and 2 IC sessions each. We've been blessed with a very strong Christian counselor who is Christ-centered and very pro-marriage. He also specializes in certain problem areas (sex addiction being one of them).

I am, and will continue to, rely on God a lot during our restoration and recovery. I also realize that God places people and tools in our lives to assist us, and I will use them (or do my best to).

I can be stubborn and pig-headed at times. It often takes some time for things to sink in. On the plus side, once somthing does finally sink in, I tend to pick a course of action and stick to it.

I do wish I had listened to my wife when she pushed for me to seek counseling regarding my mother's suicide, and when she pushed for counseling for us. Alas, I didn't. But then, not heeding her advice has been a habit of mine since we were dating (early on when we were dating, she told me the clutch in my Mustang was going out, and I said no it wasn't. Sure enough, within a week, the clutch had to be replaced).

I do realize that she owns responsibility for her actions, and she does too. I also know that I cannot change her directly, but I can certainly, with God's help, work on changing myself.

Finally, thank you for your continued prayers. I have found over the last few weeks that prayer is a very (if not the most powerful) weapon we Christians have.

Sounds good.

Hi, BB.

Quote:
=====================================
I guess my question is how do I balance self-respect, strength and self-confidence with reaching out to my wife in a joint effort to restore and rebuild our marriage? I'm sure there's a path there, but it's rather gray and obfuscated to me at this point.
=====================================

- Don't be needy, but demand truth and honesty from your wife.
- Stand up for yourself when falsely accused, but be be quick to forgive.
- If you don't know how to do a thing that needs doing, admit it, then make sure that you learn how to do the thing.
- Be open and honest with your wife, sometimes even vulnerable.
- Be unwavering in your beliefs and in your plan for recovery.
- When you are proven wrong on an issue, fix your issue without complaint.
- Don't expect your wife to act as a mother toward you.

How is that for starters?

Gimble

Hi Gimble -

That's a great list for starters <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks. I do have some follow-up questions:


How do I demand truth and honesty from my wife without being pushy (or overly pushy)? She knows I want honesty and truth, and I believe she is giving it to me, but I will admit I have some trust issues right now (not as bad as a couple of months ago). In other words, what is the best way/method to "demand" truth and honesty, without being a jerk or a controlling husband or whatever?

As I currently understand it, my being nosy and following her around the house (in an effort to ensure she was being totally honest with me) is what prompted her, in a moment of frustration/anger, to decide on making the trip. In hindsight, there were probably better ways for me to handle my quest for honesty and truth. I'd really prefer to avoid doing things that set us back, if at all possible.


What do you mean by "thing"? Like meeting emotional needs, or something physical (like fixing a broken faucet)?


I have been 100% transparent with my wife over the last month or so. I don't mind making myself vulnerable (well, there is some fear there, but I am willing to take the risk). But how do I handle those days when I'm down, or on the (currently) rare occasions I have anger, resentment and/or bitterness towards my wife? I don't think this is the time for me to be open and honest about that, since she's not yet ready, able or willing to really care about that.

Got another question, regarding being open and honest. Kind of a follow-up to my previous one.

If she asks me how I'm doing, or how my day was (which she has several times in the last few weeks), what do I tell her? I'm especially interested in those times when I've had a rough day of it (regarding our relationship). Do I simply state that it's been a rough or down day and leave it at that? Do I go into specifics? Do I state the general answer and let her determine (by any follow-up questions) how much she wants to know?

Brokenbird, I know this is these are the hardest to conquer,
You will not be able to do this alone in the flesh, only God can help you with this one.

I had let anger and resentment take root and it wasn't good.
I really hope it's gone now. I have been praying that God will take those roots right out of me. Pray before you speak to her helps. And fasting and praying together with your wife will help.

May God bind all the wounds and be healed in your marriage.

Blessings,
Lady

Ladysheep -

Thank you for your encouragement. Right now I generally do not feel a lot of anger, bitterness or resentment. I usually start to feel it when I get to feeling down or blue, and know that currently my wife is not in a position were she is able and/or willing to really care.

I do believe that God can take anything away from us - even anger. I also know that I have a long history of suppressing my emotions (under the self-delusion of "controlling" them, but it was really suppression). It's one of the first things that started getting in the way of our marriage, and I most definately do not want to do that again now. On the other hand, I also do not want them to come out in any way that will hurt my wife or make her feel unsafe.

Brokenbird, Yes I understand I believe those are the main things that need to be prayed for and removed. All the roots that don't belong there, old wounds, etc.... Pray for God to protect you and your wife from self deception. If anything the devil wants to keep you both in disunity, coming into unity is going to make him flee, coming together confessing your sins to one another that you may be healed is key to overcoming. The Word of God is powerful, praying together, and bible reading, will bring unity, and the rebuilding of love in the marriage. Pray that God would put that care in your wifes heart again. Pray the God would put that love in her heart again. Ask God to work through the both of you meeting each others needs.

I say these things only because I know they are the truth and have helped my marriage.

Lady

Ladysheep -


That is so true. I have been praying with and for my wife since shortly before Christmas. She occasionally will pray with me outloud as well, but not regularly (yet). We started family devotions right before Christmas, and my wife I started our own devotions on January 1. I am also (albeit slowly) starting my own study, since my wife's new job schedule will preclude me from going to our church's men's Bible study.

One of my oft-stated requests to God is that He continue to restore my wife and myself to Him, and through Him to each other. Our marriage was not centered on Christ like it should have been, and that is one of my goals now. I honestly do not know how marriages that do not have God in them survive. I know they do, but it must be awfully hard at times.

This morning I set up a hotmail account for my wife and I (birdcouple@hotmail.com). The intent is to provide a means for any poster on this forum to contact us directly if they desire. There is of course no obligation to do so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you e-mail this account, please be aware that this is a joint account, and we will both see any e-mails sent there. I do not, at this point, intend to post either of our personal e-mail addresses on the forums, though you all are free to ask for them through this hotmail account.

I do realize that there is great concern (justified) about "private" conversations, especially between members of the opposite sex. That is not what this account is for - rather, it's a way to make contact with both of us, and if someone out there wants to follow-up one-on-one, that is fine, though my preference would be that any one-on-one be same sex. Thanks.

Brokenbird,

I just opened my bible to read, and it opened to the same word as your signature line.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.

Ladysheep -

I ran across that scripture a couple of days ago while selecting my daily prayer out of Stormie O'Martian's The Power Of A Praying Husband Prayer Book. It reaffirmed for me what John later wrote in 1 John 5:14-15 - "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of Him."

I've drawn a lot of strength out John 15:7 and 1 John 5:14-15 lately. It doesn't tell me that I'll get whatever I want or ask for, but it does tell me that if I am submitted to God's will and actively seeking His plan for my life, then whatever I need to accomplish that He will provide for me.

Of course, understanding God's will takes some effort through prayer, listening and studying His Word. And there's always the chance that we'll interpret our fleshly desires as His will, but at least we know that if we are truly in His will, He'll give us everything (and more, really) that we need according to His will.

At least, that's my take on it. I'm no Bible scholar, and have only really gotten on track with God in the last 3-4 weeks, so my knowledge and understanding wouldn't fill a thimble - at least not yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been reading, somewhat slowly, Surviving An Affair. I'm on the 2nd Rule of Good Marriages (can't remember the exact titles, but it's the 4 rules part).

I'm curious as to when recovery starts? The A is done, NC has been established, we're setting boundaries (mutual and personal).

Is there some magic moment that you can look at and say "A-ha! This is when recovery begins."? Do both spouses start recovery at the same time?

From where I sit, I think recovery is starting, but then I wonder (based on SAA) if I'm trying to put the cart in front of the horse...I understand the concept of the WS going through withdrawal, and that the amount of time varies based on a number of inter-related factors.

Or maybe it's just that I can be very impatient at times. I wish I could just snap my fingers (not that I actually can...never mastered that little technique) and have everything instantly fixed. I know that's not a realistic expectation (and would certainly do nothing in the personal growth category), but that's probably my biggest struggle right now. Being patient. Waiting on God.

Maybe it's just the random thoughts after a long week (not so much because of our marital issues, but 2 sick kids and a lot of work piling up in the office and not enough sleep). Or perhaps I'm too hyped up on caffeine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not down right now. Just impatient. All things considered things are probably going pretty good.

Bird,

It's easy.

Recovery for a marriage starts when both partners commit to the marriage and working on righting wrongs.

bigkahuna -


Hmmm....well, we're both committed to restoring and rebuilding our marriage, we're in both IC and MC, and we're talking a lot and spending time studying God's Word together....we know what the issues are, and how to fix them...

I guess I'd classify us as either near starting recovery or just having begun. I have to keep reminding myself that she's only been home for 2 weeks, and we haven't only been in counseling for a month yet.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is a good marriage built (or rebuilt) in a day. I just get so darn impatient sometimes.

It's kind of like going to the dentist to get a cavity filled. You know you have to, you dread the process (well, I do at least <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), it seems like an eternity while you're in the chair, but you also feel so much better when it's all done (and you know you will even before you go...but it doesn't make you look forward to the experience).

Anyway, time for a date with my beautiful wife. Off to dinner to celebrate her new job <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />