Professorg--<P>All that stuff is easy for me to say...I just can't believe it in my heart.<P>I'm so depressed today. It's like every other day actually. I come to this site to find an answer and haven't been able to find any that will satisfy my soul! I don't want to have to constantly look to a website to find my happiness! I find it hard to concentrate on my job and I haven't been caring about or working as hard as I should be...the longer it goes on the more depressed I get! I don't know if Jesus is the answer for me.<P>Hum--<BR>I did it again...called the OM! Thankfully he was on the other line and didn't answer! I HATE myself and I HATE being so sad. I just read somewhere that the average person laughs 17 times per day...that used to be me, now it's even difficult to fake a smile sometimes!<P>My problems are so petty compared to most people on this forum...I really have a good life, I don't know why I'm so depressed!<BR>

I can't concentrate at all, my work I know is suffering. <P>I'm not even going to write what I did today. I'm just a freaking *******.

Pam,<BR>He gave you those thoughts so that you can get to know Him. Those are the things He espouses. Once you get to kow Him, you will find that there isn't a feeling associated with them. They are facts just like His love for us. I used to get down and stay down with no hope. Now I can be down yet still have hope. He is the peace that I have found in the midst of my current storm. He is always there. Yes, I am in pain because my W won't say I love you or be affectionate. Yet, He has revealed to me that I need to be what He wants me to be for her so that her pain can heal enough so that she truly gets to know Him. She professes to know HIm but has none of the fruits of the spirit that indicate that she truly knows Him. He is tugging on you, that is why you are able to say the wonderful things.<P>I will pray a special prayer for you and your family.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Ladies, ladies, stop it! Beating up on yourself is NOT going to solve your problem. It is NOT going to help you get over what you've been through. If anything, worsening your self-esteem will make you MORE susceptible to this happening again.<P>You have to forgive yourselves. You have to acknowledge what you did, that it was wrong (which you have or your wouldn't be there), and work on BUILDING, not destroying.<P>This self-flagellation is not helping you!

D&C is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, 100% CORRECT. You must forgive yourself before you can go on. There is no need to beat yourselves up over a mistake. We all have made mistakes and will continue to do so. It is what you learn from your mistake that truly counts.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

I rarely post but this series of posts yesterday and continuing today has prompted me to share some thoughts with this board. Particularly Maya, but perhaps Holly and others will see what I am driving at.<P>Maya,<P>I have been following you since you came onto this board, and I have found you to be very insightful not to mention funny. Your discussion of your difficulties with falling back into love with your H has really touched me. Until yesterday I felt that I had nothing to add, but I think I do now. You may disagree.<P>I was surprised by your comment that your H and you have never really be friends. While I cannot imagine marrying someone that was not a very good friend, it really started me to thinking. Please stay with me as I ramble. It occurs to me that there may be a way for you to not only regain feelings for you H but perhaps really surpass anything you have had before. <P>Let me start in a rather disjointed fashion since it is hard to put into words what I am thinking. Your current situation is that your H has forgiven you and basically given you unconditional love at the same time you decided to stay in the marriage not because of his love but out of "obligation" or firm religious belief. The problem as I see it is that neither of you had to "work" to get back together. You H forgave you and he loves you. You did not want to accept this gift but came back for the above reasons. Unlike many cases on this board, neither of you returned because of the plan A plan B stuff but rather own agenda so to speak. The problem is that you don't really feel anything for your H other than obligation and duty and you want to cross this gap to a firmer relation.<P>Meanwhile, you still have strong rememberances for your feeling during the time of the affair, not necessarily for the OM. How can that be? Your discussion of your lack of friendship with your H triggered the following ideas. You do not need to love your H, you need to become friends with him again. Just as Sir Hurts Alot had to do or K and many others. What I am saying is that you need to treat your H the same way you would treat a neighbor or fellow church member who has undergone a major loss. You go to them and you give. You put the salve of your understanding on their wounds. You would not really expect anything back. <P>Your H may not be showing it but he has been very damaged by this. He is in a position that he does not know what to do. I believe you said that he had given it over to God. That means among other things that he will accept whatever the final outcome is whether he is really happy with it or not. Meanwhile, you are not telling you H of your concerns, fears, and apprehension. What can he do but sit there. Further, he apparently not only doesn't know you have problems, but he doesn't have resources such as this site. That leaves the job to you.<P>Now let me give you my take on the affair and the OM. You as most people on this site did not set out to have an affair. But you met someone and began to talk. These discussions on your part at least were simply reaching out to someone. If you found they had problems you worked with them to try and help them. You did not expect anything in return. Gradually, as the two of you or any couple in an affair, begin to get deeper sharing and giving more of yourself. Evenutally, the interaction is so intense you are willing to give the OP everything (your relationship with the spouse, the kids, the house, everything). Of course this intense interaction, where all is sacraficed, can only work if all outside annoyances are pushed away. That in my opinion is why it is called a fantasy. Not because the emotions and commitment are not real but that such an interaction cannot be sustained in a vacuum. Further, you have already given everything, what is left to fuel the fire? <P>Now here is the realization I came in your posts yesterday. You do not miss the OM and I think you do not miss what he gave you. What you miss is what you GAVE him. It was and is the giving part of the relationship that you miss. That is how you can hate the OM but still miss the relationship. You started out giving help just as you would a neighbor in trouble, expecting nothing but receiving some satisfaction. As the level of giving became deeper or more intimate, the response becomes stronger.<P>Maya, what I am thinking is that you need to take your H and give him the same courtesy and kindness you give a friend or neighbor who has sustained a major loss. You would treat a wounded animal that showed up on you door step the same way. Become friends with your H. Now you will say it takes two people to do this. Eventually, that is true but in the beginning (ask SHA or K and others) it does not. It simply takes giving. You cannot accept your H's gift of love because it is much harder to accept than to give. Once you can give to him you will be able to receive and enjoy. I am not a bible scholar by any means but my recollection of the scriptures is that the concept of giving is just a strongly advocated as the concept of love. In fact the statement of love someone even if you don't (fake it), I thinks is slightly misinterpreted. When the Lord said love thy neighbors I don't believe hop in the sack with them or love them the same way you would love a spouse or a child is what was meant. But to treat them with kindness, understanding, sympathy, etc. The LOVE part comes from the sharing of the gifts. It will grow out of this. Therefore, I think that the feeling that you miss from the OM are not the love but the giving without regard to consequence.<P>You feel empty because you are a giving person and you are not giving. Talk with SHA or K or for that many other here how have regained first friendship with their spouse and then love.<P>I hope my ramblings have made some since. Maya you are not a bad person and I think that you can make your marriage something far more than an endurance contest.<P>There is much more I would like to say but this is getting too long and rambling. Think about what I said. If you look closely at the Harleys principles you will notice that it really does not matter about which needs and what came first. What matters is that the partners give to each other as they can and the relationship can develop again.<P>I hope this will at least get you thinking.<P>Good luck and God Bless You.

Professorg--<BR>Thanks for praying for me...I started to cry when you said that, and of course someone walked by!!!<P>Hum--<BR>Did you talk to the OM?<BR>I just calculated how long my affair went on until I confessed to my husband...25 days!! And before I confessed I told my husband that I missed the OM because we had recently moved! I can't believe I'm sooooo hung up on something that lasted only 25 days, in which I only saw him 6 times and spoke to him half of the 25 days for about 20 minutes at a time! DUH...what is my problem!!! I can't believe I was ready to throw away my marriage after only 25 days with someone...it's almost laughable at this point!!!<P>Just Learning--<BR>WOW...I think you have a great point that just opened my eyes. I did give alot to the OM and I expected nothing in return...and was happy doing it. I always have a more difficult time giving to my husband...I guess I take him for granted. I'm going to try giving more to my husband and stop expecting so much from him...and see what happens from there. Thanks.<p>[This message has been edited by Holly (edited September 30, 1999).]

Just Learning,<P>honey, you're going to have to change your name, because no one is believing this 'just learning' bit any more! <P>you have so much insight, and you opened my eyes to something big in your post. I did so enjoy giving everything I had inside me to OM. It made me feel validated, needed, admired, wonderful. I'm going to really think about this today. thank you.

Just Learning,<BR>The Holy Spirit moved on you and you spoke God's truth. What you described as giving without expecting anything in return is unconditional love. God is using you in a mighty way. You just gave a powerful testimony. Though being able to quote scripture is important, being able to testify is more important because you are showing what God has revealed to you. God be with you my friend.<P>Tamis is right. You have the wisdom that God has bestowed upon you. He is certainly using you.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Well the me and OM talked today. I just wanted to explain myself and the reasons why I can't look at him, etc. This opened it up for him to say he still questions everything, still loves me, thinks of me all the time and how sorry he is. We started talking again about how it's not he doesn't want me but he can't leave and he didn't know until he actually tried to leave. I got upset and cryed at lunchtime in the bathroom.<P>I got so angry that I sent him this email:<BR>****************************************<P>You loved me so much that for 2 yrs. you constantly pursued me, were finally successfull in getting me to change my mind that now your letting me go forever.<P>I'm sorry this does not compute with me or will it ever. Why I continue to beat myself up over someone who constantly kicks me in the face is beyond me. You don't deserve any tears I shed for you. You say you still love me but you can't be with me, your problem is you don't what the meaning of true love is. You never loved me, all I am is an temporary escape from your marriage. <P>My father says "Love is never having to say your sorry". You've given me a lifetime of I'm sorry's and hurt and I should be thankful and counting my lucky stars your out of life forever. <P>Leave me alone understand, don't look at me, talk to me, nothing. You are cut from life completely and forever and I want nothing to do with you. I wish we never happened, you were the biggest mistake of my life!<P>I can't even stand the sight of you. I hate you with everything I have.<BR>********************************************<BR>Now I feel bad.

Wow Hum--<BR>Please don't feel bad...it's your way of closing the book on a relationship that has caused you so much pain.<P>You both need to get away from each other...it's the only way to heal.

so this is where you guys all went, we need to get sosad in here. Just learning, that was a great post. It has actually given me some hope that my wife will actually have a way of coming back if she decides. As I wrote on the other thread started by airheart, I still think those intense feelings in an affair cannot not be replicated in a marriage and should not be expected to. They are way different than unconditional love.

just learning,<P>That was indeed a great post! One I think maybe Maya will greatly appreciate! I wonder if she's read it... Unfortunately, I don't think it can apply in my case. <P>I've been friends with my wife for years. We were friends before we started dating. Any relationship I've ever had in my life (and that includes the affairs) have always started out as friendship. I totally get the idea of "giving" and "unconditional love" and all that... but come on! There IS something more in the love all you betrayed feel for your spouses! You know it. I know it. We all know there's something you have that we (Holly, Maya, Hum, me, etc) don't. And I'm not talking about that fireworks in-love romantic thing that happens in an affair.<P>Sorry... maybe it's just my depression talking again. I'm just awfully discouraged lately. My wife told me that she read on another website (www.vaugh-vaugh.com) that it could take TWO YEARS for a couple to truly decide that they want to keep their marriage... TWO friggin YEARS!!! holy crap. The prospect of feeling this way for that long is rather overwhelming.<P>--andy

Andy--<BR>What's this vaugh-vaugh website? The address didn't access for me. Is that the correct address?<P>Pam

Just Learning .... thank you so much for your thoughts. You are wise beyond your years.<P>I don't think I'm a giving person at all. I feel like I'm a TAKER. I am a selfish person, and that's probably some of the reason I'm so quick to give up on this marriage. I don't WANT to work at it.<P>All the "stuff" with the OM just happened. (or so I thought) ... I didn't have to work at being nice or loving him or anything ... he made it very easy.<P>Now my H, you'd think, would be easy to love too .... he's trying his butt off, but doesn't know WHAT exactly to do because I don't give him a clue what my needs are. I don't know what my needs are. And I don't know that I want him fulfilling them. Is that SICK or what?<P>Counseling should help. I've resisted soooooo long. I'm scared and sick to my stomach ....

Maya,<P>I have just a few minutes. I think you may be incorrect. Your perception of yourself is not who you are. Hence you are having this terrible struggle. I think your decision to go to counceling is correct. I as many others have seen your posts. You are not as big a taker as you think, and deep down you know it. I wish you the best of luck and hope that you continue to work on yourself and your H.<P>Airheart,<P>I some ways I agree with you BUT I think you missed the point. You must be friends firts to go further. If you are friends then you and your W can indeed go further. That is what I trying to tell you. The feed back you get from giving can be addictive and lead to more and more involvment. I have no idea if betrayers have less of something than the betrayed. I somehow doubt it. But they do know what the are fighting for and you may not. My suggestion is to go back and read SHA's posts and talk to K. Look at the evolution of their relationship and how it is healing. Consider how you got into your emotional affair are there similarities? From the view of a lucker there sure seem to be. As for the two years, there are a lot worse things you could be doing than spending two years with a close friend who happens to love you. You view it as work, I suspect because of the withdrawl but your friend (W) had nothing to do with that pain. Two years with her is not two years with withdrawl which you are going to go through no matter what. Be a good friend to your wife. Even if you two do not stay together, leaver a healed person, be kind to her, take care of her. Don't pull the I'm distancing myself because I don't want to hurt you crap. Most of the time this is just an excuse to avoid working and being pleasant.<P>Must go. Think about it Airheart. I as do many others here think you will make it. You need some patience, time and some work.<P>God Bless you both

Pam -- whoops... user error!! I'll have to recheck that link tonite when I get home. I spelled it wrong. It's supposed to be vaughn-vaughn.com, but I just tried that too, and it didn't work. I dunno, maybe the link is down?<P>Just Learning -- Well, actually I am behaving as you suggest. I am treating my wife like a friend. I am not distancing myself from her. Believe me, I'm committed to making this work! I hope what you say is true. I'm just not convinced of that. And I'll tell you why- because we were friends for years. So how come I don't have that feeling already? How come I never had it to begin with?<P>The reason why the "two years" thing depresses me is because it's already been hellish for the last 4 months (8 months really, if you count the duration of the emotional affair). Going through these feelings day after day for what could be two years will be very wearying! Even if I'm doing it with my bestest friend in the whole wide world! I realize that it probably won't be as intense as it is now, but look at how Maya feels... I can see me like that next year. <P>Also, for the record, I don't view treating my wife nice and being her friend as "work". Actually that comes naturally to me. The "work" as I view it is dealing with my feelings of depression from knowing that I don't have the feelings I should for her. Withdrawal is starting to go away for me, so I don't even view that really as a big problem anymore.

Wow, Just Learning, I don't know where you're popping in from, but every post of yours I have read has been a keeper! <P>I too had a terrible time regaining 'feelings' for my H Dunc after my affair. We were in counseling, I was not involved with OM, but I still felt very distant (WE didn't kiss either!). I spent a lot of time casting around for reasons why this was such a struggle, without much success (if you measure success by change in behavior or feelings).<P>What finally shook out for me, and I'm talking years later, is realizing that my sense of shame & 'unworthiness' went far deeper than I realized, and truly poisoned our relationship for a long, long time. I just couldn't open up to, or enjoy, my relationship with Dunc, despite the fact that he was trying so hard and I knew I cared for him deeply. I suppose I just felt, on some deep level, that I didn't deserve a good marriage, that I had permanently screwed up my 'eligability' for one. So by God, I wasn't gonna have one! Dumb, huh? And I never realized I was punishing Dunc as much as myself...maybe more.<P>So this is why I found Just Learning's post so meaningful...I really think he's on to something. In my case, it was Dunc's affair last fall that finally gave me an opportunity to *do good* - to be the giver, to nurture him, and make saving and renewing our marriage possible. I knew I had done something strong and valuable and good. I finally had something to be *really* proud of in my marriage, in my life. And, miracle of miracles... my burden was finally lifted.. I was no longer Unworthy in my own eyes. Wow, what a sea-change. it has *completely* changed (for the better) the dynamics of our relationship. Suddenly, I could be the joyful partner Dunc had been deprived of for so long. I do consider what happened to us nothing less than a miracle.<P>NOW - let's not have betrayed spouses running out to start their 'even the score' affairs! But think about what Just Learning has said... it sounds so simple but is so profound. I think what I lacked, and what many betrayers lack, is first: the knowledge that they have a deep need to *redeem* themselves in their own eyes in order to feel like a valuable part of the marriage again; and second: lack the means to do so. Like I said, I don't recommend the turn-the-tables affair! But, like Maya, I was stuck in my own unhappiness and lack of fulfillment. Perhaps, as JL suggested, the means to get past this sad & depressing 'stuck' feeling is to make a concious decision to go all out for your spouse - forget for the time how much you miss having the romance with your spouse that you shared with your OP - don't try to force romance with your spouse (we all know how fake that can feel) - but just really *give* to them as a good and trusted friend in every way you can think of. Nurture them; plan times to be with them, stuff they enjoy doing; give backrubs or hair-brushings or whatever they enjoy; share some wine and/or music ...whatever you both enjoy. <P>I think a lot of betrayers have, without even being aware of it, internalized this idea that they are no longer worth anything to their marriages. They have given up because they feel they have nothing of value to offer their spouses any more. Nothing could be further from the truth. Don't waste the time I did, and continue to deprive your spouse of the mate they truly want, simply because you've decided you're not worth wanting.<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Hi gang,<P>I've got to make this quick... have to get to work. I thought I could add something of value since I lived the other side of Suse's story...<P>Maya, Holly, Hbird, et all... can you imagine how humbling, frustrating, and sad it is to be quietly on the other side from you? There were sooooo many times I'd hoped Suse could open up to me. There were so many times I'd wished that I could be offered the opportunity to really comfort her. That I could get close to her and mean something to her.<P>Between Suse and me, our insecurities kept this distance. I was trying and trying hard. I'd reach out in little ways and in many cases would not get through "The Wall", as Suse used to call it. There were times which should have been intimate which were not. Even then, when I'd try to console, when I'd risk it all and ask, "hun, what's going on?" I'd get back from her a shaking of the head, a moment of silence, and, "things are okay, I can't talk about it".<P>Can you imagine how impotent I felt? Good word, eh? And, it didn't really apply to the physical aspects of sex. It was deeply, deeply emotional. I felt incapable of satisfying her. Deeply.<P>So.....what do guys usually do with this? They withdraw. Eventually I sure did. I don't know whether it's due to "nature" or "nurture" but I think it's a very valid generalization that guys have trouble opening up and being vulnerable. When we do so in little ways and are hurt? It's all over. SLAM!!! goes the steel door to our hearts.<P>So, what happened to me? Welll.... I stayed in the relationship, hung in there for years. Partially because we did have a friendship, partially out of obligation and a compassionate love for her. Another key point, we have sons whom I dearly love.<P>So gradually, my unfulfilled need for deep intimacy wore me down. Eventually, I came to the conclusion I HAD to find some outlet for it. Wellllllll, I did! I made this conscious choice to try to live a double life. Didn't work, thank God! LOL. And...now we're here. That act of insanity gave Suse the opportunity she needed.<P>Women, your guys may really WANT to love, nurture, console, and cherish you. I'm sure you felt like your OMs did that, albeit briefly. Suse describes what happened between us very, very well. Please take it to heart. Maybe you all can learn from what happened to us and bust thru. I sure wish we had someone telling us this stuff during our difficult times.<P>Good luck!<P>

Suse and Dunc,<P>I am glad you understood what I was trying to say. You have provided a much more concrete explanation and description of what it seems the process really may need to be. You know reading some of the later posts by Holly where she contacts the OM again. I think you r description is really apt. She and others are still willing to go to the OM although they have left them. Talk about willing to give with no expectation of return. It sure is confusing. Do you suppose it is the guilt driving them to do this?<P>I feel people like you and Dunc really give this board what it needs. Experience and retrospective evaluation. I always learn something new from your posts.<P>Tamis,<P>I hope my thoughts have been of some help. You sure have come a long way in your time on this board. I hope that you are proud of yourself. You should be.<P>Holly and HumB,<P>Please time to think and evaluate your situation. You are getting very good advise from people that have been there. I would like to add one thing. If you sit back and analyze your marriage (plusses and minuses, etc) you will not get the true picture IMHO. You get the current snap shot. If your H's are good people and you loved them enough to get married, you can create a better marriage. The snap shot is not where you will be but where you are with all of the feedback thrown in from the affairs. This is true whether or not your H knows about the OM. However, marriages are living things and they change constantly. And you have as much control as anyone how this marriage will be. Your H will respond to you. Again look at Suse and Dunc. Even having a second affair can produce good results (when it should not) if both partners have good in their heart. They did love each other although it was not obvious. Treat your H's with kindness and care and I suspect you will get it back. This by the way does not mean be a doormat.<P>I am rambling again. Good luck to all and God Bless