I originally posted to brokenbird's post because I was upset at what UVA had said. I was trying to give a little perspective and oddly enough, defend my husband. I got flamed for my trouble and honesty. I am not trying to justify anything as many of you assume. Admittedly, I am not repentant (yet), but it takes me a while to process some emotions. I am not usually a cruel, heartless b1tc4, only when pushed too far. What you have not seen, yet my dh has, is my change from total unresponsiveness to actually considering his efforts. And the pendulum swing back and forth depending on the daily issues that effect such things.

I realize that most of you are BS's and it's a wonder to me that you have marriages that work if you are this hateful and cruel to WS's. I thank Lem and Van for realizing that I am in the midst of it. Now, I believe in calling things what they are, but I also believe in telling the truth, and chastising, admonishing, etc, in love. And frankly, why should I try this method if all I get on the forum is hatefulness. Some of you have said that you will change your mind about me when I change my actions, but I don't know if that is true. Did you stop trying to fix your marriage because your WS was not repentant? Even when my dh asked that you respect *his* wishes and quit the name-calling, only one person responded.

To reply to faithful follower: My dh is in the process of changing. He's done this before, so I am a little skeptical and he knows it. I’ll admit that I might be full of [censored], but not entitlement. I haven’t exactly humbled myself before my husband, I think he would have a heart attack if I did, but I have told him that I will abide by whatever he decides. He has decided to show me love, mercy, and grace. And you guys ream him for it.

My children may one day know of the A. Right now they know that we are having difficulties and I have decided to separate.

To those of you who say that I am arrogant and don't know right from wrong, I'm not sure how you got that from me trying to explain the [bold]reasoning[/bold] behind my actions. Though I guess none of you can understand the disconnect between heart and mind. I have repeatedly admitted that [bold]intellectually[/bold] I know what I am doing is wrong, but have been hurt enough that I don't care. How many of you practiced LoveBusters on your spouses till they lost their love for you? Stopped trusting you? Stopped being open with you? Stopped caring for you? Stopped caring that they were hurting you? Do you know how easy it is to hurt someone that you DON’T care about? I've seen many posts by BS's complaining about this very thing. Don't you care or wonder what happened? Or do you just want to cast blame because your WS found what they needed somewhere else? Many of you might take my tone for arrogance, but it's anguish. It hurt me to feel that my dh did NOT love me any more, but neither one of us believes in no-fault divorce. So I gave him a Biblical reason. He chose to change and right now we are like a modern day Hosea and Gomer. I am resistant. I don’t want to get my hopes up again.

To Mel and kahuna and others who have encouraged their statements: Thanks for all the name-calling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> It’s really encouraging and uplifting. You guys are under the assumption that I have the warped view that what I am doing is a good thing. NO WHERE have I stated nor implied that. I have ADMITTED that I am in the wrong. I am slowly getting to repentant, but not there yet. Is that what you have a problem with? Then say so! Rather than calling me all sorts of hateful names, passing judgment when you don’t have all the facts, let alone know me as a person, and, IMNSHO, tearing down rather than lifting up. You guys have said nothing to make me believe that MarriageBuilders is about rebuilding the marriage.

But honestly, I am the type of person that has to end things in person. Like I said, I’ve tried NC twice now. The first time was voluntary, the second wasn’t. For [bold]me[/bold] it’s easier and longer-lasting if done face-to-face. For all you nosy-nellies I have NOT been rutting like a ****** in heat. I’ve either been drugged out on cold medicine or responding to posts here or talking with my dh. Some affair huh? (have a sense of humor, will ya).

To Longhorn: I never stated nor implied that I had a God-given right to do what I am doing. I just LOVE how you guys are putting words into my mouth and assuming the reason behind my actions. I DID say that I was hurt. To clarify, I was so hurt that I lashed out. He!! hath no fury like a woman scorned, neglected, etc. Not an excuse nor justification, but my [bold]reason[/bold]. It doesn’t make it right, but it’s the WHY.

And what the heck is SH???

BTW, I am here because my dh asked me to. However resistant, I do want to see if we can get to a place of loving, a place where I don’t need to look anywhere else, have no desire to look anywhere else, and where I am treated as a person in my marriage. He desires for me to feel safe and loved again, knowing that he is the one doing that for me. We DO want a good marriage, we just have no idea how to get there, and that is why we thought MB might be a good place to start.

Magpie, are you listening? And hearing? I'm new to the thread, but your post contains an awful lot of rejecting. Can I ask what part of the posters' advice you have accepted?

Magpie,

I posted to you earlier and stated that I have more than a few things to discuss with you, when you are ready. I note that you have asked no questions of us here, suggesting several things. One you are still deep in the affair and don't want to hear anything. Or perhaps you feel that knowingly doing something you KNOW is wrong is somehow justified.

On this last point I would like for you to consider something that has more than a few people puzzled but as Lemonman stated probably should not (you are typical). If you have felt the compulsion to leave the marriage because of your H's actions and inactions, there are a variety of paths for you to choose. One is simply divorcing him which may hurt but is honest, clear cut, and within your rights to do. The second is to have an affair which you know is wrong, you know is destructive to you, your H, and your family, and yes even the OM. You chose to do something you KNOW is wrong. Hence people are wondering about your statements concerning your marriage.

You will find if you post here long, that self-justifications do NOT fly well no matter if you are a BS or a WS. You may not realize it but you have a variety of WS's posting to you. You are with the OM now, and your H knows it, that rubs people the wrong way as well.

But Magpie, no matter how your marriage ends up and this is NOT a marriage at all costs sight, you will regret handling the issues in your marriage as you have. People here are hammering on you to end the affair, that is the #1 thing that MUST happen in order to resolve your marriage issues even if it means divorce. If you don't your chances of happiness are far less than you realize.

I think if you continue to post here, I hope you do, that will find the Mel, Lemonman, and many others are going to be far more compassionate than you can ever imagine. Many of us have been here a long time, and frankly you are NOT as unique as you think. Most here realize that all issues have two sides, but to resolve them each person needs to listen.

I will tell you this fact and it is a fact. IF you decide to end your affair and work WITH your H to address both of your issues via counseling or even just talking here, the odds of you having a much better marriage than ever before are high. It is often commented here by BS and WS alike, that they hate what the A did to them and their spouse, but it seems to have been the catalyst for a huge improvement in their marriage. It is almost as if the A was a good thing. That last comment bothers them greatly, but the reality is that the A was NOT a good thing, it was how the couple responded to it that turned the marriage into something it had never been before.

In your current situation it is hard for you to see this. It is hard for your H to see this, but please trust me on this if nothing else, you two can change your marriage and it does NOT require either of you to change who you are. It simply requires that you two change your perspectives on some things and how you respond to events in your life.

IT is easier than you can imagine right now. The hard part is healing the scars from the damage you both have inflicted on one another. It requires rebuilding lost trust and you both have lost trust in the other. It requires honesty, and yes some empathy on both of your parts.

Please think about these things and once you do, perhaps you will have a few questions for us to answer.

God Bless,

JL

as usual...
JL speaks volumes of wisdom and calmness....

pray that you heed you his words....

ARK

Magpie, you can get there, you both can. But you need to stop being the prodigal WW and get back home. You are fortunate to have a H that will reconcile and love you and work to be a better H. And you are fortuante to have 2 children that need you home with them, taking care of them.

I understand your reasoning, you were neglected as a wife, even though that can never be an excuse for an affair. And I'm sure there is much more to the marriage problems than that. But now, I think you have both learned something, and that is your marriage was and is in serious trouble, but you both have the choice to make it better.

The one thing that bothered me the most after my H waywardness, was that we were on totally different levels of thinking...really...he had a deceptiveness that I could not stand, but I also realized that came with the sin he committed against me and God. I had to put up with a lot of fogginess, lies, etc... and it's not all gone yet, but little by little being lifted. I would love to see the day we are "likeminded" again, and in love. That takes time, but the more honest he is with me, the faster we will get there.

Again Magpie, you are so fortunate to have a loving H willing to forgive, and I hope you can come to a place to forgive his wrongs too.

Blessings,
Lady

magpie,

How you are acting, what you are doing and saying while in the midst of an affair is really no different than what a lot of wayward spouses(WS) have done or said in the middle of their affairs.

My H said and did some incredibly cruel and heartless things while he was in the middle of his. And he just did not care. He had, for all of our marriage before his affair, a severe addiction to pornography and swingers mags.(Only God knows what else he did) It did a lot to make me feel unworthy. And I did a lot of love busting and made a lot of disrespectful judgements because of it.

It came down to a lot of larger issues in the end, which we/he did not figure out until awhile after we were in recovery. He had a lot of abandonment/rejection issues from childhood, and the pornography kept him 'disconnected' from true intimacy.

Sounds like your H is sorry and has repented, let go of his evil ways and changed. He has asked for your forgiveness. At this point, you have not forgiven him for the years of his addictions, and have tried to recover your self esteem by 'falling' into an affair.

I hope that you see this is not helping. Anyway, I am not judging you, and I see where you are at, as this was exactly where my FWS(former wayward spouse) was at.

I was also where you were at with your H's past addictions. It is very degrading, and makes a person feel so unworthy, you cannot compete with sexual addictions. And I don't care what anyone says, it is unfaithfulness. However, just as it was your H's choice to indulge in his form of unfaithfulness, likewise, it was your choice to have an affair. At least you need to own up to your own choices.

Did I read correctly on broken birds thread that you had participated in your H's voyeurism in the past? If this is true, a lot of damage has been done to your soul. Sounds like you two have a plethera of problems to work out.

My hope is that you can pull yourself out of this before your children find out. I was not so lucky. My children knew before I did. My daughter knew 2 months before me. She was such a daddy's girl, and it has forever changed their relationship, and hurt her beyond belief as my H abandoned her as well as myself.

We are very good now. Our family is very close to being completely healed, except me, and my issues are coming to a close soon. I do understand what is going on. People just don't understand how you can be this way. I do, and I think a few of these BS's see their own WS in you, so their anger is coming out.

I hope your read up on what marriagebuilders is all about, I am glad you are posting here. I hope you learn the skills you need to recover your marriage. I hope you and your H learn to meet each other's emotional needs, I see a lot of hope for you two, and I admire your courage to post here, angry, defiant, or otherwise.

Please think about getting the books 'His Needs, Her Needs' and 'Surviving the Affair'. They can really give you some insight into what is going on and how to help recover your marriage.

Oh, and SH means Steve Harley, founder of this sight and author of 'His Needs, Her Needs'.

God Bless you magpie, and broken bird also. I have to agree with lemonman that we all have a lot to learn from this. Not very many WS's post in the midst of an affair.

Hope you can pull yourself out of this, find forgiveness for your H and yourself. And please think about your kids, what this could all mean if all this madness doesn't end soon. Not to be mean, I have just been there.

Praying for you both,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Magpie,
I am so glad you came back here after the beating you took the other day. It says volumes about the kind of person you really desire to be. Many would never have returned, but you have, and I think that speaks so much about what's really in your heart.
This forum is made up of countless numbers of people who have been in your shoes, or suffered greatly by actions very simular to the actions you chose.
We all carry our battle scars, and it affects our very thoughts on a day to day basis. But, most of have survived and learn to appreciate what we have, because we weathered the worst storm of our lives and have finally come out on the other side. The good folks here on this board sat in witness of yet another who was trying to navigate their boat in a tumultuous sea that was bent on capsizing you and your marriage. Orders were given: "steer into the wind, don't pull that rope, shift your weight to the other side, break out the life vest, etc. etc."
What you probably don't realize yet, is that all was done in a loving context. Harsh times require harse words. We all felt panicked over your wrong choices.
Magpie, stick aroung here. Lower your voice and the you will hear HIS.
All Blessings and prayres for your recovery in your Marriage.
Jerry

All right, Maggie. Some of the kinder, gentler folks on this board have given you some warm strokes. I don't think they've read and absorbed everything you've written. Probably they are better Christians than I am. I'm going to lay it on the line. Don't bother reading it if you don't want to. I'm pretty sure nothing I say means anything to you at all.

Frankly, I've heard a lot of self-serving nonsense in my long life, Maggie, but this dribble takes the cake. It's what YOU want, what YOU desire, what YOU think, and what YOU feel.

YOU, YOU, YOU! You think you're the center of the universe and everyone else is only there for your benefit. They'd better get out of your way when you're not happy and the ****** with anyone who disagrees with you, right? We don’t understand the “disconnect” between heart and mind? Sure we do. We deal with it every day of our lives. However, when it's carried to the extent that you have, it is reminiscent of a sociopathic response. From the way you write, NOTHING in this world matters except what you want to do.

You’re correct. You never SAID anything about having a God-given right to be the way you are. However, you darn sure are ACTING as if you have that right to be a cold, cruel adulteress. You know you're doing wrong, but you don't care? Awwww…poor Maggie. Can’t anyone understand the universe needs to be more understanding? It’s the universe that needs to change, not Maggie, right?

Here's a thought. How about correcting your conduct just because correcting it is the right thing to do?

You said we don’t know all the facts. We don’t need to. What you are doing right now cannot be justified by ANYTHING. Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, your husband has ever done or said to or about you makes what you’re doing anything but slimy and repulsive. Get the picture? What he has done wrong (that he has admitted to) is reprehensible in its own right and, as you say, we don’t know anything but what he has told us in his post.

So what? Worst-case scenario--even if he HAD forced you into a disgusting sex act with another man for his voyeuristic pleasure, you are STILL not entitled to engage in infidelity with another person. Now do you see where we are coming from?

By the way, I violently disagree with your husband’s ever having broached that fantasy with you. I have nothing but contempt for the tiny fraction of males in this world who fantasize about that particular perversion. But he has repented, he knows how stupid a thing it was, and has unambiguously stated he was wrong and does not want it. He probably should get some professional counseling from the psychiatric community so that he never goes there again.

So what? His wrong can NEVER justify what you’ve done and are doing still.

Look, when you've stopped your selfish, destructive behavior, I'll support you and your husband in your attempts to get your marriage back on track. But it’s vitally important you come to terms with how screwed up your thinking is. Until you do, there's no chance of you reconnecting with him.

I can see you don’t like what I, and others, have said about you. That’s unfortunate. There’s an old saying to the effect that the truth hurts. I’m sure it does in this instance, but I'm not about to condone your actions even to the extent of remaining quiet and not raising objections to what you say on this board.

Get used to it. It's YOU that needs to wake up, not everyone else, woman.

Magpie,

If possible do a search on member Myrta. She too was a WS with a lot of the attitudes and perceptions that you exhibit. Please take the time to read through her progression of posts and note the subtle changes that she exhibited. It happened slowly at first but when the acceptance of reality hit, the transformation was nothing short of miraculous.

It was helped in no small part by a loving and caring husband that posts under the name of Stanley.

Trust me, we are all rooting for you and we know if you are here and communicating you won't regret the time spent.

You are in my prayers.

Okay, the rest of you can get out the 2X4s. I know the above is not nice and supportive. I guess I'll just have to live me not with not being nice and supportive this time.

Longhorn,

I think you are missing something when you say our posts are supportive. And that is one can support a marriage, one can support a person, BUT still not support the affair or her decisions to this point. I don't think anyone supports her actions and decisions at this point.

What we do know is that actions and decision making change and if changed new and better results occur.

You are right she is focused on herself, and that is very normal for a WS still in an affair, or even just out of the affair and in withdrawal. That will change IF she changes her actions and decision making. It does take time.

As Cy pointed out Myrta came here with some considerable attitude and as she learned, as her perspective changed, her reactions, her focus, her whole life began to change. It can and does happen around her with great frequency.

IF you want to search the old archives and even some recent posts look up Facing_Choices. She is the reason I finally registered and started posting after reading here for 6 months. Unfortunately, many ofher posts were lost in the "great disk crash" of 00 or 01 I forget now.

It happend Longhorn, have some patience. Nothing wrong with your thoughts, but bit of patience is required at this point. Magpie has some big decisions to make and as she makes them I suspect it will become evident as how we can help her.

God Bless,

JL

PS: The Horn's better when next week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, JL, I know the other posters so far have not actually been supportive of what she’s doing. I didn't mean to imply that. I freely admit I'm more than a little "confrontation prone."

I'm retired military, Scot-Irish by ethnicity, and…I’m a Texan. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I’ve admitted on other threads that I call spades by their true names…shovels. I attended the College of Engineering at UT. I trust that gives you a fair mental image of who I am and, if so, perhaps you can see why I have patience with people who don’t use logic and persist in self-destructive, and family busting, behavior.

Perhaps I can be of service out here to present a counterpoint to what others say and thereby contribute to a better discussion. I like to get others thinking more in depth about what they say.

If you’ve seen my other posts, you know I actually do embrace the concepts of this website. Sometimes, though…

Thanks for your support for the guys in burnt orange. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Magpie -your words struck me so strong -I have never had such emotion before. I had to walk away and cry. I almost thru up. I am not like this. Now listen to me my H and I have had a very loving M for many years he is 60 and I 53. Until 3 yrs ago we had trouble walk in the door. His mother died, his kids changed there last name to their step dad's -their mothers wishes, not they're fathers, we had a lien on oiur house ude to so much I will not go into it. My H turned against me. Turned bitter and blamed me for everything and turned to OW. He almost destroyed our M. It is still not healed. He worked with her told her half truths about me and us. He lied to me for 2 years. He was verbally abusive and cruel. The total opposite of the man I loved. I should have left -some how I could not. One day I found his e-mail site. I was crushed. It was true I was not crazy he was having an A.
Now what I am telling you is if you did somethings with your H that you did not want to do. Maybe you are angry just as much with your H as you are with yourself. But punishing someone by having an A fixes nothing. Don't you see that? You mess up your M, your kids and the OM's life. If you mucst leave your H till he gets counseling so be and you need it to. You need to set up boundries with your H and just say no and stick to it. Don't you see how badly you are hurting youself as well. Were are your morals, selfrespect and diginity.
For your childresn sake go home -they need a mother. What example are you setting for them. Please gohome and work on yourself and your life.

Magpie, where are you now? Are you still with the OM, or have you returned home?

On the other thread, I told BB to not let you near him until you get tested for STD and pregnency. Even if there are no grounds for your need to do it, it will show a good start to rebuild your marriage on your part.

Maybe you should get your own place to think out what you really want. If it is to rebuild your marriage, then you could start dating again. If it is a divorce, then do it and stop stringing your husband along.

I have not yet posted but think I have to. I looked at this like lemonman did....she was giving me insight. I wanted to yell at her because of what I have learned. Like everyone else here she will need to learn on her own. I really have nothing of substance to add to either conversation.

That being said... I thought of Myrta because she was on here around the time that I started coming on here....and I lurked for quite a while....before I signed on...so..I for one hope that there is a positive change for her. I also hope that she can be honest to which she only knows the full extent of her actions, her intent. Because as a BS...it was the lack of honesty that crushed me....

I only have one thing to say to you MP.

Right now it feels good - right now you feel better than you have in YEARS. Right now - no one can convince you there were good moments. Right now - you KNOW the marriage was a mistake...that you married for the wrong reasons. Right now you look at your marriage pictures, and remember not feeling the joy you should have felt on your wedding day. Right now you feel OM makes you feel so alive, so like a woman - so the way you were MEANT to feel!

Right now you are on a high...you feel a bit guilty, and a bit sad - but you KNOW for the first time in a long time - you have it all figured out and things make sense for the first time in years and it feels good - like you know you are okay!



That will all end MP...and all these people are just trying to help prevent you from dropping from even higher than you are now, cause the crash is hard.

Yes - okay - I hear your defense - I don't know your situation, I dont know the real details - for you it's different...yeah - k - your story is different...but all in all it's the same.

I was there MP...so were MANY MANY other FWW's here on this board. This "rewritting" people talk about - right now you probably can't see that you are doing it. people like my mom tried to show me the truths of my marriage and I told her she wasn't a part of it - she didn't know.

Only in NC with OM did I come crashing out of this fog...only after NC with OM did I realize that we had actually had an okay marriage - yes there were some bad issues that needed to be corrected - but there were some REALLY good things about our marriage...but during my A and contact with the OM - I couldn't see it.

I did have sex with OM - but it was never about physical - it was about how he made me feel - so alive, so different...I puke thinking about it now. It kills me to know I was once that person.

I read your posts and my heart breaks - you are so full of entitlement, so full of confidence and self-assurance - so like I was. And that's what breaks my heart, as I truly know from experince how convoluded it is...and how hard you will come crashing down. Maybe not now, maybe not next month...maybe not for a year - but when you crash - you may be alone if you wait to long. No husband left to help you pick up the pieces, children long gone with him.

This is your chance now to try.

Give it a year - NC with OM, NC with men of the opposite sex, councelling. If after a year things dont change - then do it right, file for divorce and leave.

This way - you will regret it and always wonder - you have already said this man is not the fatherly type...so why are you doing it? Is he REALLy worth it in the long run?

I know this probably wont get through to you - as nothing anyone said to me got through to me until I wanted out - but trust me as someone who has been there. You are going to fall - here's a chance to lessen that fall.

And the pain YOU PERSONALLY are going to feel after this - is SO FAR WORSE than the pain you have experienced in your marriage...the pain of what you allowed yourself to do, the way you allowed yourself to break YOUR morals. It wont always be about what your husband has done to you...it will one day be about what you have done to yourself - and there is no escaping that pain...

Longhorn,

You said
First, people in affair don't use "logic" as most would consider it, that is why it is called the "fog". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Second, I can identify with the military background, grew up in it, was in it in college, and on active duty. I believe the procedure goes something like: establish the objective, determine how to meet the objective, take the objective...right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What we are trying to do is establish the objective while showing her how to meet the objective with minimum loses. She is taking some big loses right now and that is part of what has to change.

I also spent time at UT and got one of my degrees there. Don't really want to go into specifics. But, they darned well better come to play against USC and kick some rearend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Then you said
Perhaps you can Longhorn, perhaps you can. But remember most defensive people, just defend harder if they are in a corner, and MagPie is really in a corner.

Must go, I looking forward to MagPie's response to all she has heard.

God Bless,

JL

JL, I hear you. You've presented your feelings in a lucid manner. That you do defies logic, in a way…considering your suggestion that USC has a chance next Wednesday night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But your opinion is valued. Consider this though. Is it not possible the shock of seeing one's "foggy" thoughts pulped by unsympathetic viewers might bring one out of that fog all that much quicker? Can an outsider influence a WW to “defog” by patting her on the back? To me, that just reinforces the certainty in her mind that she is “right.”

That’s just me. I don’t demand anyone agree with me. I wouldn't even have posted on this thread if Maggie hadn't singled me out for a couple of comments because I think she's a lost cause. She's doing nothing to improve matters and I have little patience with people like that. For my money, Dorry’s post is the most effective thing anyone can possibly do.

First to Magpie. I'm interested to know why you didn't respond to anything I've written. You'd think that as I've been there done that I might have something to say to you.

Longhorn, JL's been doing this a loooooooooooong time. He's got through where no one has ever got through. I started off very well on here 2 years ago (or so I thought) and then JL prised it all out of me, the real truth and my real feelings. I proved as difficult as any other WW when it came down to it.

I know he blushes and carries on when I say this but he was one of the most important reasons my marriage is in the recovered state it is today.

And Longhorn, no, shock and abuse don't help in any way whatsoever. JL and others here know what works and, boy, does it work. What works is looking inside yourself from a different perspective and if anyone can make you do that, JL can.

Jen

and so can Pep.