Actually, I'm waiting for your explanation of how fluid retention is actually excess calories. Evidently tap water contains fat in your world or something.

If you don't believe me, perhaps a quote from webmd.com, one of the nation's most respected health web sites, mgiht be enlightening:

From webmd.com:


So MOS, if you still find this silly, why don't you educate AGG and myself and tell us what YOU think causes people to gain weight? I can guarantee you that in nearly every case, be it depression, stress, too busy, not busy enough, etc., it can still be traced to calories in > calories out.

For example, I could blame my weight gain from my mid-20s to late-30s on metabolic changes, but in truth, it still came down to calories in > calories out. I just can't eat as much today as I could when I was a teenager before my metabolism slowed down with age.

Your claim that this is all so silly flies in the face of common sense, MOS. But do tell us what your theory is. Enquiring minds want to know.

Now you're just being goofy. Trying to pretend I said things I didn't, as you're doing repeatedly on this thread, won't change the actual truth of what I did and did not say.

Basically I've said two things in response to you:

1. calories in > calories out == the one and only cause of weight gain is false and I find such statements funny for their sheer falsehood

2. I've repeatedly agreed with you that consuming excess calories is an important cause of weight gain

Since you're still trying to argue, evidently agreeing with your main point doesn't satisfy you. You seem upset that I disagreed with your false statement. Reiterating your main point that I've already agreed with doesn't change a thing, because I already agree and have had no problem saying so. Claiming that the "rightness" of your main point means that anyone who disagrees with the false part of your statement must be wrong is silly, and I'm really not following why you're pursuing that.

I would venture a guess that fluid retention occurs when one absorbs more fluid than they expend. I will grant you that this is an example of mass in > mass out (as opposed to calories in > calories out), but I think you'll be hard pressed to find examples of anything other than "mass in > mass out" or "calories in > calories out" as the reason for weight gain. Mass (weight) and energy cannot materialize out of thin air.

AGG

Sure, you've got the definition of fluid retention right. Again, that's excess weight that is not caused by consuming excess calories / eating more calories than are burned / overeating. It seems that we're in agreement.

MH, IMO this all comes down to acceptance. When W was 185, you proposed, but you didn't accept her as she was, you expected that she'd keep losing. And that was a reasonable conclusion from your perspective.

As you can see from all these posts, though, all anyone asks on this issue is to be accepted for who they are. No one's saying you're evil and bad for having your thoughts and actions, and I don't think you're saying that your W is evil and bad for hers. I don't know why I married a guy who didn't accept me at my weight (back when I was only 135), and I don't know why your W married you know that you didn't see her as "good enough." That's why I come to this board, to learn from others' experiences. The best guess I can give is that I thought my other good qualities would be enough, the way you said you honestly thought your W's would be.

How depressing. So where to from here?

Cat_A,

Thank you for your kind words.


Is a diamond. And it's funny you should mention "wackos" as I have the distinction of probably being the only man (not working in a psychiatric institution) to have come across not one, not two, but THREE attractive single women with MPD (multiple personality disorder) in one three month period. Two confirmed, and the first one fairly obvious after having met the other two. I would hope that the folks here would at least agree that that constitutes "bad luck".

Me, standing at door: "Hi! How are you?"
Anne (with *really* blank look): "Ahhhhh ... come on in."

.
.

Anne: "So where did we meet?"
Me, puzzled: "At Andy's, on Thursday night."
Anne: "And I made a date with you?"
Me, getting a wee bit panicked: "yeah ... diner tonight ..."
Anne: "I see. Well, that wasn't me."

She gave me a quick once-over, said something like "you seem like a nice guy" and invited me in.

We became friends, and I got the whole story later that evening, after which her greeting mad a little more sense.

And no, we didn't "date". I wasn't that brave <grin>.


It's been addressed many times, but never *resolved*.
And we're more in a state of suspended animation than conflict.

Again, Cat_A, thank you for your kindness.

MisHubby,

Can you do the LB questionnaire with your W? When I sat down with my H to fill it out we made sure to be in a safe place and we were able to really talk about what bothered us. Perhaps your W feels disrespected by you about other things, and eats to help soothe what she's feeling.

I know that I will often stuff my face if I have a fight with someone, or if I feel really down about something. Sometimes I feel empty, it's emotional, not physical, but it materializes as an emptiness that I fill with food. If your W is the same, then perhaps she'll be able to open up to you with the questionnaires.

Also, you could always start working on your own physical appearance, and maybe your W will like the extra energy that you have and want to join you.

Cat

This is a very important fact which should be in BOLD...


So do you feel that she "fooled you" - into M? Is that also a part of the resentment???


I would think your wife is in a horrible place emotionally - she has little to no SF w/you, and she knows your not attracted to her figure. I understand your thinking you could "adapt" or that it would be less important.
When I M my WH - he was not my "ideal" sexual partner. He didn't seem to care if he satisfied me not, and it was his way only. It was when he wanted it and how - in his mind I wasn't supposed to "enjoy or want it"..I wish I would have seen those red flags..I too thought I could get past that -I thought he just had a low sex drive.. I put my SN on the back burner. Unfortunately, I think my WH has deep sexual issues and he just started getting his jollies elsewhere. I think in his mind that's what real, successful men do..




Maybe she's so use to not "getting it" that to her it's not significant anymore. That's kind of where I went emotionally after so many rejections you don't want to ask for it anymore.
So you can't make love to her anymore - have you asked her to give you pleasure??

I wish that's all I had to do to save my M was lose weight..you guys still have a chance to save your M - you gotta get her to understand she needs to do this to save the M - part of a healthy M is SF..being proud of the person you are with/not resentful. If you telling her isn't working then maybe you need professional help. Maybe she has sexual issues and keeping the weight on keeps you at arms length - w/o really getting to the root of the problem it ain't gonna fix itself.

Hugs...

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She lost weight, got down to maybe 185. It was still out of my “comfort zone” … no, let’s be honest … it was way out of my “lust zone”, but things were at least much improved.

YOU SETTLED FOR THIS WEIGHT LOSS BECAUSE NOTHING BETTER HAD COME ALONG.

Please don't insult my intelligence by insisting that you were insanely happy with your Wife's appearance when you married her.

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OK, here's some RH for you. The above statement is total bull. As you prove in your last sentence.

I have to obligation to be radically honest with you--you're not my Husband and we are definitely not engaged in a relationship together. You came here for advice and I gave you a perspective that YOU don't like because it puts the blame on YOU for your situation.

My last statement was based on radical honesty--I really believe that your Wife is unhappy because of you. I can't imagine that she COULD be happy...REALLY!

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Not true. As I've stated, the subject has come up in a major way about half a dozen times over the years. I try not to *nag* about it.

Alright--so why not read the concepts here and learn how NOT to nag! Marriage Builders can show you how to get your point across to your Wife WITHOUT nagging her! It CAN be done but you have to let go of the ANGER, DEFENSIVENESS and the BITTERNESS...FIRST!

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Well .... actually, I checked out those photos before I wrote what I did, and I must admit that I was thinking of you. I did NOT say "ALL men" ... I said "chance", and "odds", and I think that the truth of the matter is hardly debatable: most men find fat unappealing.

MOST men MIGHT, but not ALL and those who DO find fat unappealing usually marry thin women.

I realize that you think I'm against you because I'm a HEFTY woman and I have a problem with men who don't like FAT chicks, but you've made the WRONG assumption. Anyone can tell you that I'm the first person to advocate that a woman LOSE weight when AS is an issue in the marriage. My problem with you is that YOU KNEW she was fat when you married her! I think you should first work through the mistakes YOU made...accept them, work on YOURSELF and after that point, you can begin to ASSIST your Wife in losing weight.

As for you having me in mind when you made that comment--I'm not here because I have problems in my marriage. I'm a newlywed and if you checked on my past posts, you'd find that my PRINCE of a Husband went through ****** and HIGH water to be with me. I have NO experience with men who dislike FAT women--fortunately for me, I've NEVER had that problem. I had men asking me for dates, even when I was engaged to my Husband.

Quote

Hmmm ... and what are you compensating for?

Well--for the most part--a sh*tty ex-H that had a problem with telling the truth...but truly--is this the reason why you're here? To try and one up the FAT chicks who beat you with logic and win?

And she was *so close*. And I never would have believed that it would remain such a problem for me, this far down the road.


Here I beg to differ. Seems like better than 3/4 of the women here are saying *exactly* that.


No, I'm not. I'd be a saint if I wasn't resentful, and I'm not a saint. But when I look at the situation, I'm *real* aware that it's not a helpful emotion.

I'm a fixer. I make things work. It's what I do. And when I can't do that I get very frustrated.


Good Lord ... what are you, four-foot-nothing, that you could be too heavy at 135 ?????? Whoa! To me that sounds so unreasonable, more like a case of "there's something *else* going on here".


Aye, there's the rub.

Having gone through this forum exchange has helped "unwind" a lot of my current tension. Hopefully to the point where I will again be able to address the subject with her in a more constructive fashion.

Perhaps the biggest change (and I am not sure it's actually good in terms of keeping us together) is that having found this site, and read the HNHN book, I've finally given myself "permission" to acknowledge my need to like what I see when I look at my wife. And to not feel guilty that I currently don't. "Cognitive dissonance" is not pleasant, and that's probably the best way to describe the experience.

That's what you can learn through MB, healthier perspectives and strategies. It's hard to be mad at someone, for example, when you make their favorite meal, ok that's a bad example!, I mean take them on a great date and they thank you sincerely for it or even better brag about you to family.

I'm 5'4", so 135 was well within healthy weight, but like someone else said on another post, not a "pinup girl" weight. I never expected that I'd weigh the same after kids, no one else I knew did. But I took to emotional eating because of the stress at work and in my M, and that's where I went off track.

Awesome!

I think you will see sooner than you think that actually it's a good thing when you can see that your needs are valid. You won't be frustrated into complaining about something else that's more "permissible" to be frustrated about. Ever done that? But you're not in a position yet where negotiating to get this need met will likely be successful. That will take time eliminating LBs and meeting her needs so that she can come back from a state of conflict to a state of intimacy.

MH,

There is no doubt that weight issues tend to be a hot button for many ladies on this board. Even ladies who haven't struggled all their lives with weight, have usually faced weight issues after child birth or entering menopause. It's no secret that metobolically men have a much easier time of maintaining weight.....so this does tend to be a polarizing issue on the board.

I think you have a legitimate complaint, and I have never been very happy about how men with AS needs get treated on the board. You're taking a relatively harder clobbering because you went into your marriage with unrealized expectations.....probably a mistake....but one made by thousands of people who think love will change their spouse. The important thing is to deal with where you are NOW. Yes, you could have made better decisions in the past (waited until you wife maintained a weight you were happy with before marrying etc), but you didn't....and now a marriage and family hang in the balance, including a precious child....so all this bickering just keeps us from dealing with the project at hand IMO.

I'd like to focus on where you are now, and what you can do about it....considering where you are. And for the record....I don't think you are shallow. Love is not unconditional....no matter how many of us wish it was a matter of "acceptance"...it just isn't. If it were, we'd have to "accept" all kinds of things like addiction, abuse, etc. I'm not saying there is NO acceptance....afterall somethings we are powerless to change, like aging, illness etc. My husband also has a very high need for AS....one that I take dead seriously. It's certainly not the most enlightening or endearing part of his personality...but it is REAL and it does matter, and I care enough about him and myself to try to be attractive to him.

There are needs in Harley's hierarchy which tend to divide along gender lines. The two that get called "shallow" most often are AS and FS. So for women to understand how AS tends to affect men....I usually compare it to THAT need...financial support. What if your husband refused to work and you had a high FS need. It's not that dissimilar. They both require hard work, consistency and dedication to accomplish. They both cause huge love bank withdrawals no matter how unreasonable they seem to their partner.

For either of these needs....I try to ask folks to look realistically at what they really "need" instead of just "want" so that the objective has some hope of being met. (For instance, if I marry a carpenter and I have "doctor's wife" tastes....that might not be too realistic. Or I a man is married to a 45 year old, and expects a 18 year old porn star....he is likewise out of luck too) but reasonable changes are the kinds of things that make huge changes in how we look at our spouses. Effort is a big thing (carpenters become contractors....45 year olds can have great bodies)....just the idea that the other spouse is actively trying to meet a need really does count for something....and I think many people lose sight of that. My weight tends to fluctuate up an down 15 pounds or so....and even if I'm still on the higher side...the minute I put on my warm up suits and get back to exercising...I immediately become MORE attractive to my husband even if I haven't lost a pound.

So....on to your question....how do you talk to your wife, or help your wife both recognize the depth of your need for AS, as well as your fears for her health should she remain obese.

Many weight analysis experts recommend a "buddy system" when one spouse wants to help the other lose weight:


On the other side of this coin is that your inability to have sex or give much affection to your wife....along with her knowledge that she knows you find her unattractive...is no doubt undermining the very self esteem she needs to fight her weight problem. In order to create an atmosphere where she "is motivated to change"...you must change...first. I understand your viseral reaction....so, you must find other needs to meet in abundance in the ways that you can meet them. Double your efforts in other areas. While you cannot be physically affectionate...you can still be romantic and loving. Write notes, highlighting the wonderous things about her that you married her for. Praise her good qualities and even if passionate kisses are not on the table right now....hugs and pampering needn't suffer. Help her feel good about who she is....and the liklihood that that she will "want" to change will increase. Give her the safety and security that you are in this marriage for the long haul and won't give up.

Good Luck

Call me a fool for asking but.......UMMM didnt you say6 you had a child together????????but I thought she was out of your 'lust zone'


PS Call me a cynic....but Im betting your one of those wonderful husbands that uses porn and thinks it justifiable?????????
If so then IMO you created the problem

Dear star*fish,

Thank you. Everything that you've written rings so true. I don't feel that my expectation are unreasonable ... although to someone who's been overweight most of her life, with only brief periods of normal weight, they might seem so.

Her younger sister (who was considersbly heavier) had a gastric bypass about six months ago and has become the incredible shrinking woman ever since. My wife is not *that* heavy, so she is in no way a candidate for that sort of thing, just as you say, hard work, consistancy and dedication.

And please don't *anybody* think that I'm unaware of how she must be feeling, and what I'm *supposed* to be doing that I don't do.

In my mind I've run through the conversation endlessly; or at least this year's version of it.

"If you won't do it for me, then can you do it for Ty?" is one possibility.

Ah ... right now I need a break from all this. The feeling of despair was lifting, but just a moment ago I made an appointment to take one of my dogs to the vet tomorrow evening ... and he won't be coming home again.

Sometimes life sucks.

Anyway, thanks again. It's tremendously silly, but when the whole d*mn world tells you something you think you need is unreasonable (or worse), it's awfully nice to hear otherwise. I am grateful.

BTW, his name is Riggs, and he's a 4 1/2 year old Golden whose had seizures since three weeks after we got him from the SPCA at seven months of age. The phenobarb and KBr dosages that might possibly stop the seizures make him into a zombie. The dosages that leave him functional also leave him with up to five seizures a day. I love the damn dog ... he doesn't have a mean bone in his body, and I HATE having to do this ...

Hi there...

I've been staying out of this whole flap. But I just read about your dog, and wanted to say how sorry I am...that is an incredibly hard decision to make. Will be thinking of you and Riggs...

Kathi

MH.....So sorry to hear about your pet.....:sad:

letmejustsay....WOW....My husband has a high need for AS and he has never had a porn problem. I for one have alot more sympathy and understanding about men who use porn (instead of cheating) when their wives don't make an effort to remain attractive. I'm not an advocate of porn, at all!! and I think it generally does far more harm to the marriage than solve anything....but I see women on this board all the time who withold sex or gain copious amounts of weight and then become confused about why their husbands use porn or have affairs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Most men have sex as their top need....that drive is going to manifest itself <somewhere>.

Out of the five or so years I've been here....I have seen only a few instances where a spouse "preferred" porn to an available and attractive wife. What I do see....is men who don't encourage sex by taking the time to be romantic to their wives and giving foreplay a strong place in their technique...and that has to be addressed....but so does the other side. Women use sex for manipulation, punishment etc. So the sex issue....has gender issues on both sides.

There are many many men who love plus-sided women and who don't care a lick about their weight. But in terms of "sexual attraction" there's no sugar-coating the truth that <most> men have weight issues when it comes to sexual attraction and that attraction goes UP as weight goes down. Even the pretty plus-sized models are in good physical shape and look healthy....and let's face it...none of them are really terribly overweight....just a little rubinesque like some of the Renaissance paintings. I also believe that most men are not hung up on having their wives look like stick figures....but a healthy range of weight is the most attractive to the most men. There are some evolutionary reasons for that by the way.....probably buried deep in our genes. In terms of procreation....the basic human drives for sexuality is going to encourage us to find healthy people to mate with. From an evolutionary standpoint....women look for more than attractiveness...because having babies means needing protection and support.

That's hard for us gals to deal with....because we live in a world that's very unforgiving, bombards us with images that reinforce unrealistic beauty standards....plus we're wired to be the gender more likely to struggle with weight loss/gain.

I've been married 24 years. When my husband and I first married I was a size 6 and I'm 15 years younger than him. It is second marriage and he got the young, sexy wife of some men's dreams. My husband has never said anything about fat women turning him off, but he use to make negative comments about fat women. For the last 15 years I have been very overweight. We had a period in our marriage where our sex life was almost nonexistent due to his lack of interest. I always suspected that was due to my weight gain but he vehemently denies it. Right now our sex life is great and I haven't lost any weight so perhaps he was telling the truth.

My weight increases with stress and decreases when things are going smoothly. However most of the stress I experience is due to things within my control. I could reduce the stress and probably lose weight by doing so. However the motivation to downsize my life and my body isn't there for me YET. I keep thinking I will eventually turn my life around. That motivation has to come from within.

My husband loves me for who I am and not what I look like although as I said, I know he wants a thin wife. The reason he doesn't have a thin wife is that I know I don't have to be thin to maintain this marriage. I'm not saying he should give me an ultimatum to lose weight or he is leaving. What I need from him is for him to not be so accepting of me. He tells me every day that I'm beautiful. I know he wants me thin but I want to believe his words. He also knows the foods I love that I shouldn't love so much and he offers them to me. He does this because he knows I love them. His love is enabling me to remain fat. I'm dependent and he is co-dependent.

If you want to help your wife. Lovingly but consistently tell her that you want her to lose weight. Support her efforts in doing so and don't sabotage them. Be honest with her. Compliment her on the things you do admire about her but not the things you don't. Don't tell her she is attractive if it isn't true. Self-esteem should be based on admirable characteristics, not on falsehoods. Don't focus on her weight, focus on all her wonderful qualities. In other words, put this issue into perspective. The message should be that you love her and want to stay with her whether or not she loses weight but you want her to lose weight. You aren't a miserable hubby. You are a happy hubby who wants his wife to lose weight. Focus on the good but don't sacrifice your need. Aren't you really saying that you can be satisfied with what you have but you would like to have a thinner wife? If that is the message, then tell her that.

She may never lose the weight. She controls the ability to do this. You can't control her motivation. However you can help her understand how important this issue is to you. Treat this the way you would want her to treat you if there was something about you she wanted to change. I would really appreciate my husband watching less TV. He knows that recreational companionship is one of my needs. So far he is doing a very poor job of meeting that need. I'm doing a poor job of meeting his need for an attractive spouse. Neither of us may ever get those needs met. But I really do feel in our own way we are both trying to do so.

Good luck!

MH,

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT....

Have you had your sweet dog tested for a gluten allergy??????????????

My mom's dogs both have seizures, one started when she was very young, the other just started recently. The older one was on Pheno and several other meds, which didn't help, the younger one, for some reason was tested for allergies, and it turned out that BOTH have gluten allergies, so they are now on a special diet which has greatly diminished their seisures, now they only have them when my Stepdad sneaks and gives them a bite of waffle.

A friend of mine has a dog that recently started having seizures as well, I recommended she have him tested for allergies, and his came back as a gluten allergy as well.

Please don't do anything that you don't HAVE to do yet, research other possible causes of what could be causing the seizures.

I don't think that this is a good way of going about it... If your W is going to lose weight, it's going to be because she wants to, not because she should do it for someone else.

I think that you have the right idea, just not the right approach.

I'll think about how I would want my H to approach me about this and get back to you.

I'll also be thinking about you and your dog. I hope that they're able to do something for him.

Cat