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I'm trying to refresh my understanding of MB concepts. There are 2 MB things I never understood.
(1) I've read that the Harleys say if either one had an A they would immediately divorce. If true, what was the reasoning behind this? (Is it because they already practice MB concepts & meet EN/avoid LBs, etc, so if one had an A then it's an indication of some serious problem with that person & not with the M? Just guessing...)
(2) I've read that the MB stuff doesn't work when the WS is also struggling with addictions. I'm not sure how addiction is defined, but I'm assuming alcohol addiction, etc (although I don't know where the line is drawn - for example, problem drinking that will lead to addiction if unchecked?).
Thanks everyone
Nev
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(2) I've read that the MB stuff doesn't work when the WS is also struggling with addictions. I'm not sure how addiction is defined, but I'm assuming alcohol addiction, etc (although I don't know where the line is drawn - for example, problem drinking that will lead to addiction if unchecked?).
Thanks everyone My understanding about addictions (since reading Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders) .... is that when some behavior cannot/willnot be POJA'd it is indicative of an addiction (per Harley's definition) POJA is the heart of their marriage-building concept .... so without an ability to POJA ... their method falls apart. That's my thumbnail understanding .... anyway.
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Another reason that MB principles do not work on an alcoholic is because they are so profoundly self obsessed that Plan A efforts are only viewed as a fresh opportunity to exploit. An alcoholic does not love, they exploit and and use for the sole purpose of feeding their addiction. They can't respond to Plan A measures as would a normal person because their emotions are warped.
That being said, the tough love section of Plan B can be very effective in protecting a BS from the destructive tendencies of an alcoholic. And an alcoholic usually only responds to tough love, since reason has no place in their world.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel and others....
would you consider porn-viewing an addiction? (when there is an inability to stop porn when asked to do so by the spouse)
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(1) I've read that the Harleys say if either one had an A they would immediately divorce. If true, what was the reasoning behind this? (Is it because they already practice MB concepts & meet EN/avoid LBs, etc, so if one had an A then it's an indication of some serious problem with that person & not with the M? Just guessing...) I don't know what their reasoning is and can't answer for them, but many people do choose NOT to save the marriage after an affair. It is a tough decision to make and some choose to just move on. For me, personally, I know myself and know that I would not have stayed in the marriage if the affair had not ended upon my discovery. I would not have done Plan A or Plan B. And I would not stay for a repeat affair under any circumstances. But those are my preferences and everyone has to decide for themselves what they would or wouldn't tolerate.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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For me, personally, I know myself and know that I would not have stayed in the marriage if the affair had not ended upon my discovery. I would not have done Plan A or Plan B. And I would not stay for a repeat affair under any circumstances. Mel <~~~ my sista from another mother !
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Mel and others....
would you consider porn-viewing an addiction? (when there is an inability to stop porn when asked to do so by the spouse) I think that it is. But I don't know much about it. I don't know, for example, if it would be an obstacle to the MB program as would alcoholism and drug addiction because it is not mind altering.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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because it is not mind altering I believe there is evidence of brain changes watching porn (found on PET scans) ...
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[
Mel <~~~ my sista from another mother ! Your southern sistah! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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interesting...
I believe your guess for #1 is probably about right. Many MB'ers say the same thing, either after going through recovery once, or regarding their 2nd marriage. Something along the lines of your guess.... once we've learned and applied the principles, and have done everything we know to do to ensure the best marriage possible, an affair seems "unforgivable". But without knowing these principles first, it seems acceptable and appropriate to allow the WS home, forgive, learn and rebuild.
I agree with Pep and Mel's points on the addiction question. Addiction affects every area of life, and none of those areas can be "fixed" until the addiction is fixed (job, kids, finances, etc).
Pep, I would think that substance addiction is more of a problem than other types of habits/addictions. The person addicted to porn, football, food, sex, etc., seems more capable of reason/POJA, than someone controlled by alcohol or drugs.
JMO
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Pep, I would think that substance addiction is more of a problem than other types of habits/addictions. The person addicted to porn, football, food, sex, etc., seems more capable of reason/POJA, than someone controlled by alcohol or drugs. I agree
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Mel <~~~ my sista from another mother ! I'm still going to claim you guys as my SISTAs..even though, you both know my thoughts on PLAN A and PLAN B... I haven't decided about any future Affairs yet... I'm am just so very doubtful that another A will/could/would occur...because of ALL OF THE PAINSTAKING WORK THAT WE DO ON THE MARRIAGE EVERYDAY..maybe that's why the Harleys have that response...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I know what you mean Mimi ... I take our marriage temperature quite frequently too ... and I check myself into the serenity clinic whenever I feel my anxiety taking over .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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Mel <~~~ my sista from another mother ! I'm still going to claim you guys as my SISTAs..even though, you both know my thoughts on PLAN A and PLAN B... Yes, you are indeed a sista! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am very much an avid supporter of Plan A and Plan B, if the BS has the capability and the willingness to do it. I have seen many success stories on this forum over the years.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I don't know, for example, if it would be an obstacle to the MB program as would alcoholism and drug addiction because it is not mind altering. Actually porn addiction affects dopamine in the brain. Dopamine is responsible for the pleasure center in the brain and it creates a chemical change similar to the changes that take place with cocaine. So you could say that porn addiction does cause a mind altering experience. Have you even known people who have to smoke after sex? Dopamine is released during sexual experiences. Some people cannot tolerate the dopamine release because it can increase anxiety. For schizophrenics dopamine will increase psychotic events. Nicotine lowers the dopamine thresholds and reduces the anxiety. So is sex addictive, for some people it can be.
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For me, personally, I know myself and know that I would not have stayed in the marriage if the affair had not ended upon my discovery. I would not have done Plan A or Plan B. And I would not stay for a repeat affair under any circumstances. Miss Mel...we're in the same boat here..as my XW and I head towards the day we're getting remarried (2/17/06)...I have the strong need to make it very clear that the choices she (and we, in some cases) made are NON options this time...while we have discussed it, at length in the recent past I feel the need to do so again in a stand alone conversation so I am clear. In my mind I am done if she ever had any type of affair or if I found out about any lies, past or present. Due to multiple D-days regarding her PA I feel really strong about this... She knows about this...should I bring it up again? I am not "looking for the out"....which is how she tells me she always feels when stuff from the past is brought up.
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Pep,
there is a serenity clinic?
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SMOMY,
Give it to her in writing. Sign it. Frame it, and hang it on your bathroom wall?
With prayers,
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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For me, personally, I know myself and know that I would not have stayed in the marriage if the affair had not ended upon my discovery. I would not have done Plan A or Plan B. And I would not stay for a repeat affair under any circumstances. Mel <~~~ my sista from another mother ! I would have and did in my weak state, but not at the point I am now. I'd never go through that again. I'd be taking him to 'da cleaners the next time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I'm like Mimi and think it would never happen, but... "Never say never" or think "it couldn't happen to you". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> P.S. I take our marriage temperature frequently too and just Sunday recommended that sometime we may want to see another counselor for an occasional or yearly tune-up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail.
~ Kinky Friedman
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