Hello all,

My wife (Crystal43) and I had a low-key argument this evening. Some of you have been following the development of things under her post "How to ask for a divorce w/o hurting him" (or something like that).

Anyway, my main point is that we have to give counseling a CHANCE to work if we want to say we actually tried to save our marriage. Her objection is that she doesn't want to go to counseling for 2 years or so, be just as miserable as she is now, and then have "wasted" 2 years of her life that she could have used to start over. I don't think she gave our recovery a chance... I think we had a really good start, for about 2 months, till she gave up.

Anyway, she fears that I will never agree that she gave our recovery a real shot, because, if she still wants to go at some later date that desire will be proof that she didn't try.

On the other hand, I don't want to give a specific time table because that's basically what happened before. We agreed to step back after 6 months or so and see how things were progressing... She started watching the clock WAY too early, decided things weren't progressing and stopped working. I fear she'll do the EXACT same thing again if we set a definite time.

I suggested the thought that we could go to a pro-marriage marriage counselor for a time and let the counselor say when we had exhausted all reasonable efforts in good faith.

The problem is, silly idealist that I am, I believe what I've read (and what the one counselor we did go to see 2x said) that if BOTH people want the marriage to work, it WILL work if they learn the right relational tools (avoiding LBs, etc.). So, to an extent, my wife's fear is not entirely unreasonable. I do think that if she's putting in the effort (I know I will), then our marriage can be fixed, so if it fails, that means somebody didn't put in the effort.

Any suggestions on how to negotiate this point?

My STBX used to always claim this axiom about marriage. "It takes two to make one and it takes two to break one"

I told her that was a bunch of hooey. It only takes one to break it.

I'm feeling for you Dupe. The best years of your marriage could be just ahead of you two. Your just finishing school and taking the Bar for crying out loud. (Just don't become a divorce lawyer)

And you should change that Screen Name. I was a Dupe too.

I'll think about changing the name.

Don't worry... I WILL NOT be a divorce attorney. I know how hard marriages are to keep together (and how hard they are when they fall apart) that I just don't want to be a part of taking apart any marriages.

The only family law I ever plan on practicing is, possibly, doing some Pro Bono work every now and then to help families of modest means adopt children. THAT is a noble use of the law... and it's one I don't think I would feel right getting paid for. Ya know?

A better (and more truthful) axiom is, "It takes 2 to make 2 into 1, but it only takes 1 to make the 1 2 again, however often there are lawyers that come to scavange, and that really throws off the simple math."

I guess it doesn't roll off the tongue very well.

Dupe - don't have a better answer for your question, but I did want to offer an observation and ask you a question.

For what it's worth, as I read crystal's first words here, the very first thought that popped into my head was, "I wonder if her husband knows she's having an affair?" - this was before she revealed it later. The classic symptoms were all over her post.

Your marriage has NO CHANCE of entering the recovery room until her affair is dead and buried. Period. Maybe this was aired out later in that thread and others have discussed it.

What is your basis for thinking the affair is over (if you do)?

If it's not, or if your basis is thin, I believe you should spend your energies currently on Plan A and B. It doesn't matter that she may know what these involve - including the specter of exposure.

crystal - if you are ****** bent on ending the marriage and no other option is viable to you, please consider filing for divorce on whatever basis you think you can justify, and do the most honorable thing you can by not asking for nor expecting any marital property, any alimony, or any more than joint custody of any children.

Great you are both on MB. I don't know the history other than what I read here, so there are kids involved and it is always better to try than not.

Rather than waste a huge amount of time in counseling, have you considered attending an MB seminar? Think of it as a crash counseling period, the cost would likely be the same as extended counseling.
And, since you are both on this site, you both must see some benefit.

I have friends in a very similar sitch. He makes great money and she's educated and SAHM. I try to translate but since I work with him, I think more like him. Some of this is so textbook and could easily be improved. They actually went to an MB seminar, but never did the followup. So far, 2x4's haven't worked with them, but try MB seminars and counseling.If you had a good foundation, you owe it to yourselves and your children to try to recover your M, and likely have a better M than you ever imagined.
D sucks for everyone - particularly the children.

Crystal isn't reading here anymore. Turns out, she's not getting as much "You go girl!" response as she had hoped from this particular bunch of heard-hearted ball-n-chain fanatics. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> She even got mad at me for leaving the "Fall in Love / Stay in Love" open to the chapter discussing "Radical Honesty." It was an "honest" mistake, I promise! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, to answer your question... Is the A "dead"? Yes, sort of. Is it dead and burried? Nope.

I do believe that she's stopped having SF with OM (or anybody else... including me), however, I know that she has maintained (or re-estabplised) contact with OM and others that facilitated the A.

And, yes, I KNOW that our M isn't going to survive in it's current state and condition. I see a couple of possible paths at this point - (1) she leaves and never comes back; (2) she leaves, wakes up, and comes back, (3) She doesn't leave because she finally *gets* that despite everything that's gone on before, we CAN fix our marriage because there's a lot worth saving and we're neither-one fundamentally unredeemable.

As for what she'll ask for... it depends on her mood. When she's calm and is willing to peacefully discuss how things should end, I make sure that I treat her respectfully, and don't try to take advantage of her (since I'm going to be a lawyer, if we came to an agreement that appeared in anyway too lopsided in my favor, a court would throw it out on the presumption that I coerced or tricked her into it). When she's fired-up, though, she seems willing to try a scorched-earth approach.

Why she thinks a scorched-earth approach is something appropriate to threaten, I don't know. I think that she's desparately trying to exert control over everything in her life (as the saying from "Dune" goes, "the power to destroy a thing is the power to control a thing."). However, in our state, she simply does NOT have a no-fault way out of the marriage within the next 2 years without my express agreement. Right now, I'm the only one who has grounds for a divorce, and if she walks out, that's just another one. In our state, we don't have "legal separation," we have "limited divorce," and even that requires grounds, which she doesn't have. True, she has the power to end the marriage, but if she uses it, it won't be on her terms.

Now, it appears that she's trying to build a coalition of friends to support her choice to leave at our church. She does have more friends there, but she's ONLY discussing the part about how miserable she is and how she has always been miserable being married to me, and she can't take it anymore.

It brings to mind the axiom that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich. Why? Because the indictment process is entirely one-sided.

The one thing that has frustrated me the most in all of this is that the good compassionate people that most Christians are, there are very few who are willing to speak the plain truth in love. The Senior Pastor at our church knows a good-deal of what went on this Summer, but nothing of what's happened lately. It is possible that he will be willing to speak up on this point. I don't know. It might even be possible that she would be willing to hear him if he tells her that it is possible to rebuild a marriage, even one that has fallen to where ours is.

That's her main objection... She flat-out doesn't believe that we CAN recover, so she's just not willing to "waste the time" trying. If she would just read some of Dr. Harley's stuff, she *might* get enough hope to really try to recover. I'm not ready to hold my breath just yet.

Of course, it's even more important to try when there are kids involved.

And, yes I would happily attend an MB seminar with my bride. However, she won't go and she doesn't see any chance that anything will work, so she doesn't see any way to avoid the D despite the impact on the kids.

I still scratch my head sometimes (no, I don't have dandruff)... She has the power she craves. She can destroy the marriage is che chooses to do so, but she seems to act as if there is no real option but to use the marital-nuclear bomb.

That's why I think that if we could come to some sort of compromise whereby she really would try MB (or MB-type) coulseling that would assure her that if restoration really is objectively impossible, that she won't have to suffer for ever, but which also says that there is no specific time-limit. I truly belive that if I could get someone to whom she will actually listen to tell her clearly that if we're both working on the marriage it will get better and she will find happiness in it, then she would be willing to try.

Dupe - I understand everything you're saying and you sound logical and objectively based.

But I have to say that you may be committing a standard betrayed spouse error > you're trying to see her as a rational person. She is not.

So, the church people know of her affair, including the pastor? And he/they haven't practiced what they espouse? Some of these "friends" are her supporters in adultery? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> So much for intelligent design.

If she has not renounced the affair as the biggest mistake she ever made, it's the same as if she is still boinking the OM. The affair is either dead and burried or she is still intoxicated. There is no inbetween.

I recommend you have this very same conversation with your Pastor and anybody else who may be influential in her life. Expose the affair. Guaranteed you are underestimating the significance that the continuing affair has on her thought process and this will continue until she absolutely ends it and stops trying to vilify you. Scapgoating you is a requirement to justify her affair decisions.

Do "they" know? Not really. The Pastor is the only one who really knows anything. And he is really only aware of where we were by the end of the summer... At that time, she HAD renounced the A, and during that brief period she was working on the M. For the most part, the others at the church are not aware of the A. Previously, the exposure of the A was only to a few influential people, and although many people knew something was up, what they saw was that after a month or so of problems we seemed to be back together and on the right track.

I care enough about my wife that I didn't want to damage her reputation one bit more than necessary.

As for Contact = continuation, I am 100% in agreement, but most people, unless they've had to go through this and learn what affairs are really like do not get that any communication with OP is poison to the marriage.

Oh, and no, the friends who supported her in the A are NOT in our church. I believe that almost everyone at our church would, even if they told her they wanted to be her friend, would strongly oppose her actions if they knew they stemmed from the A. Of course, in her addled mind, none of her current actions stem from the A. She's *only* acting based on the life of misery she's lived for over a decade, and that's what she's telling her friends at church. She certainly wouldn't want to confuse the topic with irrelevant facts like her A and continuing contact with the fellow who is now "just a friend."

The ones who supported the A were/are online chat-buddies. That's where she met OM, and prying her away from her computer is something I've never been able to do for long.

I’m so glad that all of you in this forum seem to KNOW who I really am. Oops! I’m sorry…I guess that was a DJ.

I am posting this same message on every one of my husband’s (TestedDevotion) threads.

I know that people in this forum are trying to be helpful. However, it’s very difficult to be the judge and jury when you’ve only heard half of the case (as hubby would say, “It’s easy to indict a ham sandwich”), and perhaps it would be wise to think twice before making far-reaching assumptions based solely upon stereotypes and one-side of the story. I’m not going to use this opportunity to justify myself or my actions, because I don’t have the innate need to be right all of the time, unlike TestedDevotion (yes, that is a DJ, but a well-earned one). Perhaps as you read the letter he posted on the Letter I sent to foggy WW - Was it a mistake to send it? thread, you might just get a glimpse of what life is like in my household. Maybe if you’d lived in an atmosphere like that for a decade or more AND felt devalued by your spouse daily (in actions, not words…and we know that actions speak much more loudly) AND dutifully catered to what you felt were the selfish desires of your spouse AND felt as though you bore 90% of the burden of raising three small children…maybe only then you can understand that I’ve just had it! My body, my mind, my spirit, and my heart are all completely worn out. For me, staying in this marriage to heal it (it’s been shot in the head 10 times and is on life support right now) is like expecting a tire who’s tread has been worn down to the steel belts to perform perfectly in the snow.

Should I have had an affair? Absolutely not. Am I sorry that I did it? Yes, I am VERY sorry that I did it. I only wish I’d had the strength to separate from my husband before getting involved with another man. And, as it turns out, I was never really “in love” with the OM…I was merely in love with the idea of being “in love,” as I have so desperately craved love throughout my marriage, and TestedDevotion was unable to give it to me.

And perhaps, before rushing to judgment about me, you should know that TestedDevotion’s old screen ID was BronzeGuy from this board (Summer 2005) and mine was PHgirl (also summer 2005), and our exploits into “swinging” and the subsequent turmoil that lifestyle created are clearly chronicled in the “In Recovery” discussion topic.

For the record…had the “swinging” never taken place, the affair never would have either. I was a monogamous, devoted, caring wife to my husband for the first 12 ½ years of marriage. I gave him MUCH more emotional support and made MANY more sacrifices (both for his sake and for the sake of our family) than he ever did for me. However, because he had undiagnosed depression during that time, he has acted as though that’s his “get out of jail free” card…he “unknowingly” destroyed my self-esteem, depleted my love bank, emotionally neglected me, and manipulated me into his way of thinking (hammering home his point until I cried “uncle”)…so I should just forgive and forget and move on as if my heart hasn’t been broken (more like ripped to shreds) for the last nearly dozen years???

I am NOT saying that there weren’t good times that we’ve shared over the years, NOR am I saying that I played no part in the breakdown of our marriage. There were many good times, and perhaps it’s those good times that had given me the strength to stick it out in our marriage for as long as I have. My contributions to the marriage’s demise aren’t minor, I’m sure. I had the affair. Ok, we all know that by now. I was very critical of him in the beginning of our marriage, especially when he made mistakes that I know I wouldn’t have made…my perfectionism was often difficult to live with (even though I held myself to a higher standard than I expected of him)…I yelled when we had arguments…I was judgmental of him when he was too “blind” to see the important details in a given situation (but details are part of MY personality and he’s more of a “big picture” guy)…and I’m sure the list goes on and on.

The sad thing is that he said, throughout our marriage, that I expected him to “read my mind.” However, I told him in so many ways what I needed, but he never heard me. It wasn’t until he read one of the Dr. Harley books (12 ½ years after we were married) when he finally GOT it, to some extent…and I said to him, “I’ve been telling you those VERY same things for years, but you never listened.”

Beat me up all you want for wanting out of my marriage. Argue that I’m “in the fog” (of an affair that is NOT continuing). Continue to support TestedDevotion in his one-sidedness. This forum has fanned the flames in our household recently, both before and after I discovered what he was posting. I’m moving out of our house very soon. We’ve told the kids, and I’m hunting for a place to live. Perhaps some time apart, where we’re not in each other’s faces all the time (he ONLY wants to talk about the state of our relationship at any given moment), will give us the chance to reflect on what we’ve done to kill this marriage, and why we ever got married in the first place. I have no idea what the future holds…but perhaps all of you veteran MB’s can look into your crystal balls and tell me what lies ahead (there goes another one of those nasty DJs).

Crystal

And yet you spent the next several paragraphs doing precisely that.

Until both of you are willing to look in your own mirrors and see the things that you contributed to the situation.....until you are both willing to admit that you had a role in arriving at this point......until you both admit that you are broken individuals......until you accept individual responsibility.....until you both work on your individual issues......ONLY THEN can you work toward healing personally and as a couple.

But you have to stop blaming each other.