Gosh. It has been SOOOOOO long since I have been here. Feels a bit wierd to post after this long, but I again find myself at an impasse and I need some advice.

To recap my past 4 years (in a nutshell):

WH had affair 4 years ago and that is when my ****** began. It took a mental breakdown for me to finally expose it after 4 months and I spent the next two years in counseling by myself because WH refused to come along. We have limped along all this time, but I really feel like we made some progress along the way. But, there have also been many bumps and a few times we came very, very close to separating. The last time was about 10 months ago - but after lots of consideration, we decided to try harder to make a 'go' of it.

Some things remain major issues to me, though. WH still sleeps in another room..... yes, after 4 years he still will not sleep with me. He continues to insist that it has nothing to do with me, but the reality is that it makes me feel worthless. We essentially live pretty separate lives, but I manage to convince myself that it is normal. We have 2 sons, ages 9 & 5, who are active in many things and manage to keep us running in different directions. Last summer, he decided on a whim to take the boys on a vacation for a week and I was left home alone because I had to work. I was devastated - they went on a family vacation without me! On top of that, they were gone on my birthday!!!! It still hurts me to think about it, but WH seems to think that there was nothing wrong with it. His opinion: They all have the summer off from school, so they should get to do things. It is not their fault that I have to work! Warped, huh?

Last week was our 14th anniversary. I lost it that day - I think due to the emotions that had bult up over the past year or so. Through it all, what stuck with me was the fact that WH told me that the most important thing to him is being a good dad to our boys (because his dad left when he was an adolescent and he has never gotten over it) and he intended to do that even if it cost him everything else. I just don't feel like I have a place of impoertance in his life except to clean house, run errands, cook, and bring in a paycheck. (I am the primary income - he is a teacher and has more time to spend with the boys.)

However, each time I look at my kids or hear them talk about how they love our family, I just cannot muster the guts to make a split and ruin their lives in order to search for something better for myself. Make any sense? I just can't do it to my kids......

After my latest breakdown, I decided to renew my commitment to improving my marriage. Some days it is hard, but my kids are my motivation.

Now,a minor issue has me questioning things again and I am so tired of thinking about whether or not I am wasting my life AGAIN - I need somw fresh perspectives.

I come from a very close family. WH does not - his family is very broken (still) and is not close. WH has always known how important my family is to me, and he was very accepting of that for the first several years that we were married. However, over time he has become more hard-headed when it comes to them. He has fallen into a pattern of finding 'excuses' to keep himself out...... I hate it. We spend time with my parents, sister's family (sis, hubb, & 2 kids), and me and my kids. It is painful to me (an all, I think) that he excludes himself.

My parents are retired and are 'spending our inheritance' living a fantastic life they deserve it!). Before the affair, my parents took my entire immediate family on a few once-in-a-lifetime vacations. They have mentioned since the A, that they wanted to do another family trip, but they weren't quite sure what to do about WH and I.

So............ the time has come. My parents have come to tale to us about making plans for a spring skiing trip for our whole family. What a fantastic opportunity!!! But, you guessed it. WH told me tonight that he will not go. He says it does not sound fun to him, that he does not like all the planning that my family does, and that he will not participate. Sure, they boys and I can go, but he will not. He is spiining out all sorts of excuses, but the bottom line is that I am tired of having to make excuses for him so that my family does not get their feelings hurt and I am tired of doing 'family things' without him. I feel like a loser when he does not come along and I miss the memories that we could have of times togher with our kids. Seriously, I do not want our kids to think that it is normal to go on some vacations with mom and others with dad when we are supposedly 'happily married.'

Am I over-reacting? Part of me thinks that. The other part of me thinks that maybe it is time for me to just make the break and move on. But, I absolutely cannot imagine the thought of not seeing my kids every day. (If split, we would have joint custody of the kids - something I have to deal with since I work more and he spends so much time with the kids. Bites, huh?)

Can anyone give me a fresh perspective? Is this worth fighting for any more? Or, am I fool for living like this?

Thanks,
WTW

(I should change my name to something more like 'have I waited long enough,' or 'was the waiting worth it?')

You aren't over-reacting. Why is he so willing to take "family vacations" without you? To me, that's a big red flag. I don't mean to be harsh or anything but, as a FWS, he's got it made. You are supporting him, he gets to be with the kids all the time, etc. and he can still live life the way HE wants it. It's all about him and he knows how to play the game - no accountability. I can tell you that he's laughing inside. Don't do this to yourself. He has no respect for you OR your kids. A good father wouldn't do this to his family.

Hold him accountable.

Go on the vacation and let Grumpy stay behind. Have a fantastic time and take lots of pictures of smiling face.

As for the continued relationship with the your WH, he can't be said to be a FWH because he's never worked to rebuild the marriage, right? Four years is a long time to wait for a spouse to get back together with a betrayed spouse.

I don't see you losing any time with the boys if you split. You'll have them 50% of the time. Are you getting that much time with them now, considering that his job gives him so much more free time?

I agree...take the vacation without him. I also agree that he can't be a FWH if he's never worked on rebuilding the marriage. Four years is just too long to wait if there's no movement toward TRUE reconciliation.

OK - what a nightmare...... I guess I have been gone so long that something is wrong with my user ID. Everytime I go to look at a post, I get a message stating that the Page is Not Found. What is up with that??????

I just registered for a new ID until I can figure that one out..... and ideas how to fix it?

Back to the topic.....
I know, I am sure I will end up going on the trip without him. We'll have a fabulous time and the kids and I will have wonderful memories. I am a photographer (trying to build a business so I can quit the day job eventually!) and I know the photo opportunities will be priceless.

I've done it before - I'll do it again. It just burns that he is always absent, you know?

The underlying problem is the fact that we continue to be so far apart. He does not tell me he loves me very often. That hurts. So much hurts. But, to be fair, I'll admit that this past year has been a selfish one for me. I think that I spent all I had for two years trying to get myself and my marriage reparied that I just couldn't do it myself anymore. I needed 'me time'. I focused on getting my fulfillment from other things in an effort to be happy. I spent TONS of time and energy working to build my photography business - with WH's support. He was great about handling most of the responsibilities at home and with the kids while I worked tirelessly at my 'second career.' It feels so good to know that I am great at something and to hear from so many clients that I provided priceless memories for them! In part, it is possible for me to do that because WH is supportive. But, I'll also admit that I let myself fall into bad habits regarding our marriage. For example, he doesn't say "I love you" so I quit saying it, too. I refused SF because I just didn't want to deal with him. For a loooooooong time - probably not a great marriage-building move, huh? So, don't let me lead you to believe that I am the ultimate wife. I know that I have some fault for the slow/stale progress lately, too.

Anyway, things like his support of my photography make me think that he IS making some effort. He is better at controlling anger and is somewhat better at communicating. Life is usually bearable, just not anywhere close to the 'fairytale' that I long for.

My kids - they are the major reason that I stay. I cannot imagine putting them through a divorce. My oldest is extremely sensitive and I cannot bear the thought of turning his world upside down. Two homes, two bedrooms, two Christmas's, two birthday parties, etc. Makes me sick to my stomach. I know that they essentially experience WH and I separately now, but there is something valuable in the reality that we all we all go to bed in the same home every night. One home, one bedroom, one holiday celebration. Make sense? How can I take that away from them just to make my own life more full?

OK - after reading my last post, I think that I made myself out to be more of a loser than I am.

I refused SF because he would not sleep in my bed/bedroom. It is degrading to have him come in my bed for SF and then leave. It was not just because I didn't want to deal with him. I didn't want to let him continue to make me feel bad.

And - yes, he has been supportive of my business efforts. But it also allowed him more time to do what he wanted with the kids without my interference. So, we both got something from it.

Some observations:

(1) If you are "blowing up", that means that you are bottling up your emotions. You aren't being honest with him.

(2) An A is a symptom of deeper problems in the M. For some reason, you and he have never addressed the problems within the M. Until those problems get fixed, your M is not going to be fulfilling for you or him.

IMHO, it sounds like you and he have "polarized"--you do ABC, so you think that is the most important thing in the world, He does XYZ, and he thinks that his the more important thing in the world. Do you two appreciate what the other contributes to the family?

It sounds to me like you are making the $$$ and he is doing most of the child rearing. So, it sounds like you and he are splitting the family responsibilites.

(3) You and he have to negotiate, discuss and resolve problems. It does not sound like you or he have the requisite skills. You guys aren't even trying.

The "ski trip" is simply a negotiation where you and he have to come up with a solution that is "win-win". You have to be happy with it, and he has to be happy with it.

Similarly, his "summer vacation with the boys" was also a chance for negotiation, discussion and a deeper understanding of each other.

(4) More generally, why do women seem to value child care so little when the man does it? Honestly, the women who make a lot of $$$ today sound like men from the 1950s. (My W is a teacher and I make much more than she does. Does that give me special rights that I don't know about?)

Yikes! That is some serious stuff to think about..... Very valuable observations. Probably not what I WANT to hear, but what I NEED to hear.

I only have a few minutes right now, but I'll add a few things.

First of all, I gave WH everything I had an more for the first 2.5 years after the A. I went to counseling (he refused) and I tore myself to the bare bones to try and fix the problems in our relationship. I did everything possible to discover and remedy the problems that our marriage had. But, seriously, can one person do it all by themself?

I think that over the last year, I finally tired of it all and accepted that our dysfuntional relationship was OK. But, deep inside, I know it's not and I know I want more.

I will also say that I certainly don't undervalue the contributions that my WH provides via childcare. I know that my kids and I are SOOOOO lucky to have a man who believes in how important raising children is and who puts everything he has into doing it. It frustrates me that he is in a positin to do that because of choices that WE made early in our marriage and now, if we ever split up, I will have to provide for him financially and still give up so much time with the kids. Selfish, I know. But, reality.

Also, I do believe that there is something dysfuntional when the kids are the ONLY important thing in a family. If there is no nurture between the parents, what do the kids learn? That they are the ONLY thing that matters.

I'll be back later. Need to get the kids to school now.

ww, you say:

1. But, to be fair, I'll admit that this past year has been a selfish one for me.

2. I needed 'me time'.

3. I focused on getting my fulfillment from other things in an effort to be happy.

4. I spent TONS of time and energy working to build my photography business - with WH's support. He was great about handling most of the responsibilities at home and with the

5. For example, he doesn't say "I love you" so I quit saying it, too.

6. I refused SF because I just didn't want to deal with him. For a loooooooong time - probably not a great marriage-building move, huh?

And you wonder why he isn't in the marriage? THERE IS NO ONE THERE! WW, you are doing the very things you accuse him of, namely refusing to meet his needs, yet we are to believe he is the bad guy here. Why is it ok for you to refuse to meet his needs and its not ok for him?

I don't see anything here that would lead me to believe you are trying to attract him into the marriage. If you want him in your marriage, then you must find out his top needs and start meeting them. Start following basic Marriage Builders principles by devoting your time to HIM and doing things with him.

I can understand why he doesn't want to go on this family vacation with you. He feels estranged from the marriage, which makes for an awkward situation around your family.

Go get these books: Fall in Love, Stay in Love and His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley. You can get them on this website fairly cheap.

Willing,

You can't improve your marriage if your FWH doesn't care enough to work with you on this. It is very nice that he values family and your children, but don't think for a minute that they aren't aware at least on some level that all is not well with Mom and Dad.

IMHO, I think you need to look deeply into yourself and determine if this is what you want for yourself for the rest of your life. You are clearly not happy with the way things are and I, for one, don't see anything changing after all of this time if your FWH isn't willing to make any effort.

My FWH has worked his a** off on our marriage every single day since D-day and it has still been a very bumpy ride for me.

FWIW, don't be too sure that you will have to provide for him financially if you decide to cut your losses and start over. Has he suggested that he would seek spousal support from you?

OK, guys. I really, really value what you are telling me. I know from past experience that there are so many smart people that I can learn from here and that is why I am back to try again. I need your help.

I do want you to know, though, that there is a lot of the story missing here. I have always wanted to save this marriage – that is why I came here in the first place. That is why I went to marriage counseling for 2 years. I desperately wanted WH to go with me, and I invited him every time. He refused. But, I did everything, I mean EVERYTHING possible for over two years with basically no effort from WH. By last year, I was pretty much emotionally spent. I was giving, giving, giving and getting barely anything in return. My self esteem and self worth were non-existent. Am I expected to do that forever? It seems that I am getting scolded for having a ‘selfish’ year = probably rightfully so. But, something had to change.

I got to a point that I was emotionally tapped out. I am not sure that I even feel love for him anymore sometimes. I know I love him and I know I want to spend my life with him. But he has not treated me well for many years. It is frustrating to think that it looks like I am the only one to blame because I needed some time to get some kind of life back after an ordeal that consumed me for over two years with very little effort from WH.

Melody, you mentioned that there is no one in the marriage. I think you are right. I need to find a way to change that. But, I was there for so long and I fought so, so hard for him during and after his A, yet I have still never managed to get much in return. He still sleeps in another room, remember? I cannot even tell you how much that hurts me – every single day.

I have all the Harley books. I also have the 5 Languages of Love, Dobson’s Tough Love, Private Lies (forgot author), and several others. I would never have survived without them. You are right, I need to start looking at his top EN’s again and start trying to fulfill them. It is just SO hard to do that when none of mine have been met for SOOOOOO LOOONG. I am not sure that I can spend the rest of my life meeting his needs if I am never going to get any of my own met. That is the way the first 2.5 years after the A went.

I have suggested counseling again. WH told me that if I was going to do that, I may as well just leave. That he would have no part of it. It is frustrating to hear that, you know?

Please help me with some direction here. I am a blank slate – I want to improve my marriage and save it. But, I am discouraged. I know that I am half of the problem, but I am not ALL of it. How much can change if only one person admits that they are willing to try?

Thanks, MB’s. I knew that coming back here was the best thing for me – even if the truth hurts.

BTW - I DO try to plan things for the two (or four) of us to do together. WH refuses. He will go out to eat with the kids any day of the week - but, not me. He will flat out tell me that he does not want to be with me. Inviting him out, or showing up when I know where he is with the kids - I have tried it all. I just end up back home in tears because my feeling are so hurt. Not fun.

You (and he) have a right to a rich, fulfilling M. If he isn't willing to work to improve the M, then maybe you should pull the plug. The bottom line is that keeping a M alive requires constant work. If he isn't willing to work at the M, then the M isn't worth having.

I don't think there is a way to tiptoe around the problem. Find a good MC and a good divorce lawyer, and ask him to pick which one you and he will go see.

Sad thing - I already know what his answer would be.

"You do whatever you want. I don't care anymore and I am tired of going thru this. I don't think we shuold split up becuase of the kids, but I will not go see a counselor, so you can forget that."

I've heard it before. As recently as last week.

So much is on my mind.......

One moment, I think that if I really kick it in and do a good Plan A, that things might change. Maybe not in the order that i expect or in the ways that I think they should. But, I have come to realize that I am hard-headed at times. My counselor worked with me alot on my issues of 'normal' and 'perfect' and my expectations of how things 'should be.' I need to be more open minded and willing to compromise. I have realized that from the comments that some of you have made. But, I can do it! This gives me hope.

The next moment, I think about all the walls that WH has put up to keep from feeling anything about anyone but our kids. I am not sure that I can overcome that and still remain true to myself. How can I get thru to him if he refuses to allow any opening? He can't say that he loves me - he just says that he loves 'things about me'. He acknowledeges that he does not feel about me the way a husband should feel about his wife. But, hey, he is OK with that because he gets what he needs from the kids. Where does that leave me?

I feel like I have two little guys with opposite opinions sitting on each shoulder and I don't know who to listen to.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you have to pull the trigger and move on with your life. If you have tried repeatedly to engage him in Marriage Building and he has refused, then you have got to get him "off the dime".

Also, are you sure there is NC?

IMHO, you need to get MelodyLane's thoughts on this. She usually has great insight into this type of situation.

MelodyLane - can you help me? What is your opinion?

Thanks, Joan

Thanks for the vote of confidence, JimmyMac. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am headed home from the office and will comment when I get home.

WW, what is his reason for not sleeping with you? What are his main complaints about you?

Melody -
He started not sleeping with me during the A. At that time, he told me all sorts of reasons - I like being near the kids (he sleeps in the extra bed in one of the boy's rooms), it has nothing to do with you (meaning me), etc. But, the one that stuck with me is the one about feeling unfaithful to OW when he was in bed with me. WHAT!?!? Fog, I know, but it pierced me deep and stuck with me,

I worked thru my issues from the A during my counseling and I can honestly say I have forgiven it and moved on. Only through the grace of God, that's for sure...... but I have been at peace with it since I got there. The A is not the issue any longer. Sure, when I get down about the status of our marriage, thinking of it makes me angry. But, that is not often at all. And, I would never think of holding it over him - I just don't feel that way. I am through it.

On the other hand, I don't believe that WH is through it. Through WITH it - Yes....... worked through it emotionally, no.

As I amy have eluded to earlier, WH comes from a broken family. His father had multiple A's and that is the reason that he left home. The relationship between WH and his father has been rocky (to say the least) since he was a teenager and they actually did not even speak for several years at one point. The one thing that WH never wanted to be was like his father. So, not only did he never deal with the residual emotions of his feelings toward his dad, he has never been able to deal with the fact that he did the same thing that his dad did to his mom. That may explain why he is SO adamant about being a good father to our boys - that is the other thing that he hates his dad for and he does not want to repeat that, too.

Anyway, back to your question......... now, he tells me that he sleeps in the other room because he likes being near the kids and he knows that the time he can do that is short. ?!?!? He insists that it has nothing to do with me, but I just can't believe that - that old statement from during the A just sticks with me, you know?

It also bothers me that he seems to have no problem waking up early and getting into my bed when he wants SF. The situation makes me feel used. That is why I stopped letting it go on - I told him SO many times how I felt, and he always said he understood - but, nothing changed. He would just come back the next morning like the coversation never happened. If he can't sleep in the same bed with me, how can he have SF? I don't understand.......

OK - what else do you want to know? What is your insight?

Thanks!

Oh, yeah........ his main complaints about me:

1. I don't keep the house clean enough....this is by far his number one complaint! (The thing is, I do keep the house clean. Now, I am the one who works outside the home more hours during the day, but for some reason he still seems to think that I am the only one responsible for this...... go figure. Really, we have a housekeeper who comes every two weeks, so even if I did nothing (which is not true!) it wouldn't ever get bad.)

2. I don't know what else bothers him about me - he will not tell me.

How's that for not much to work with?