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Joined: Jan 2006
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Hello everyone,

I am new to Marriage Builders but have read Dr. Harley's "Surviving an Affair," understand the Basic Concepts, and Love Busters, and Deposits/Withdrawals.

I have experience on the DB boards, but would like to experience any new perspectives, or confirmation that I am just fooling myself for something that could never be: reconciliation.

My story, as briefly as possible, I am 36, W 34, Married 17 yrs before the Separation, 8 children (5 das, 3 sons--in that order). Wife left April 2004. She has been involved in an Affair for sure since Dec. 2003, and possibly since Sept. 2003. She left all of our children behind and went to go live with a female coworker that April; and eventually, she moved in with the Om shortly thereafter, and for sure by July 2004.

From the time she left, until Dec. 2004, I supported her & met many of her needs, and tried to avoid Love Busters, but I consistently damaged that by persisting in revealing the Affair--which she finally admitted that Dec.

After the Affair was revealed, I tried Plan B from Jan. 05 through March 05, during which time, W had NO CONTACT with myself OR our children. She only attempted to contact ME in February, and that was only for help with her taxes. Then in March, she finally said she wanted to have contacts with the children AND me, so we started visiting again.

From April to July 04 (when she first left), she would visit with 6 of our 8 children alone (with OUT myself or the Om) until she invited me in July 04, to start joining the visits. Eventually, all 5 daughters disowned their mom, and by Nov. 04, only myself & our 3 sons have been visiting with her on Sundays. These have been "family outings."

She usually calls our 3 sons for a "goodnight" call in the evenings, and does not attempt much more contact than that even during her free times (weekends, days off, school holidays.)

There have been at least 3 times over these last 21 months, that "out of the blue" she has considered returning to me, then just as quickly, she has backpedaled and "changed her mind."

She is in a "distant" phase again that just started this Wednesday, whereby she "no longer wants to talk with me or see me at visits." This after nearly a month of having 20 minute calls with me each evening after the kids' "goodnight" call.

Another odd element is that she never brings up the Om(affair partner). He only exists whenever I bring him up. But during those times, she has told me that he is better in everyway than I was. (But she also goes back/forth about that admission, sometimes saying she "only wants to get me mad." and sometimes saying: "if I tell you the truth, you'll just take away the kids/not let me see them.") But again, he doesn't exist only whenever I bring him up.


So what to do?

My main question is this:

--If I have never made a good show of Plan A (meeting her needs, trying to make emotional deposits; but consistently contaminating that with withdrawals) and have already tried Plan B (leaving her totally alone, & her going further by not even attempting to see the children during that time) what attitude should I take with her?

--That is, should I start from square one & try my best to restart Plan A, or should I just cut myself out of the picture and do Plan B, again?

Hopefully, if you've made it through this entry, someone might be able to reply. Thank you.

Gg

Last edited by GGhoping; 01/06/06 02:55 PM.

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I'm not really one to give much advice because I'm in the same situation as you except less children but I think it would be counter productive to bring up the OM. You have to act like he does not exist. I'll definitely like to hear the opinions of others on this one.

I'm not really sure if plan a or b would be the best. Maybe just play it the way it has been going but remember no LB's and no talk of the OM. This will cause her to react in a negative way to you.

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Thanks TreborRose

In my sitch, exposing the A & bringing up the Om has done probably been more damaging in that it has created (or reinforced) my Ws fear that now I have something to "throw back in her face."

As far as leaving things as they are now, well, I think that just leaving her alone for the most part is best. Whenever I do leave her alone, she ends up contacting me & communicating with me more. Especially if I act disinterested or busy. ...It makes her wonder what I may be up to. But then as soon as I start expressing any interest in her or express any kind of affection/flirtiness/interest in "US", she gets perturbed by it and she shoots me down. I've not been able to figure that out. And actually, I'm kinda tired of it and that's why I've felt that maybe I'm just wasting my time and maybe need to just start going out/dating again.

Hope to catch up on your sitch soon and that you're doing well for the most part. Thanks for your thoughts & reply.

Gg


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GG,

What I have found is that it is best to turn a cold shoulder and not to let up. My WW acts the same way. Hates the fact that you don't want anything to do with them. They want to make sure you are hanging around. It's that whole safety net thing. Well, pull that safety net out from under them.

We're in a similar situation except that you have a whole team of kids. I just have one. You have to come to understand what plan B is really about. It's about your sanity. The more you keep in contact with her the more your heart breaks. She can't help herself from hurting you. She isn't in the state of mind yet to come back. That day may or may not come. But every so often I bet she sees a little reality. Once you break it off you will start to feel better about yourself. It takes a little but it is better this way. Sometimes these things take time.

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well I am in almost the same situation as you except less children and the affair is emotional instead of physical. Still does plenty of damage. After reading all the books and doing a plan A for about 6 months I am now forging forward into Plan B. I am going to give her the letter this week and send to her parents also.

If she does not want to reconcile after about 6 months to a year then I am sure most of the love will be gone by then replaced by apathy. That is my plan you should come up with one and stick to it. Sounds like you had a plan B in place but did not stick to your guns. good luck, stay strong and I will pray for you.


I don't really care if they label me a Jesus Freak - There ain't no denyng the truth - DC Talk
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Thanks for your insights TreborRose and jonybgood007,

I hear you both about leaving her alone & kinda just "disappearing."

The main reason why I haven't just disappeared is because I have been "protecting" my children from exposure to the Om. I know that the fastest way for W & Om to really see what their "R" is made of (for him: simply pleasure, for her: an escape <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />) would be for me to drop off our 8 children on their doorstep & say, "Good luck!" But I would never do that to my children.

There have been many times over these last 21 months that I have not wanted to be part of the visits with W & our 3 sons (our 5 das have disowned her), but I continue to attend partly to avoid her taking them over to the apartment or wherever they may be exposed to Om. And partly to try to keep W "incorporated" in my life; & to make the Om jealous; and to show W the best of me.

Am I wrong in that--wanting to shelter my children? Should I just let that go & let my sons experience that confusion & pain?

See, another thing W did before she left was flirt with Om in front of all our children & tried to get them to talk with him whenever they were "visiting her (female) friend/coworker."

All my children were hurt, scared, and confused at how Mom was acting in front of another "m" behind dad's back. And that was not even the only time they had witnessed such behaviors. (I learned later from my kids that W had flirted with other men in front of them through the years, even if only mildly.)

So what would someone say about that?


I've been feeling pretty foolish again today since I allowed myself to be a doormat again last night. I gave W $20, and got her some groceries--again; since she was flat broke. I confronted her with "why don't 'ya'll' put your $ together?" And she just stayed quiet about that.

I know that in helping W financially, and otherwise, I have actually facilitated the A, and sheltered it from suffering. I just haven't had the heart to consistently let her suffer and I go back & forth about that. I want to kick myself over it.

My supporting her also kinda ties in with sheltering my children, I think; in that if I reject her, then I will not go to visits either.

I also know that she acts better towards me when I "help her out," & when I'm getting things for her.

--But is that mostly to keep me "buttered-up" rather than bringing her closer to me?
--Or would that count as "making deposits;" & "fulfilling a primary need better than the Om can;" or even as "speaking one of her Love Languages--Receiving Gifts?" (Words of Confirmation is her Primary lang.)???

So, here I go around in circles... Any comments, insights, welcome. Thanks and good luck everyone.


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GG,

I fully understand the situation with the kids. I do the same with mine. TRying to protect them from the insanity is perfectly natural and understandable. There will be pain for them when they do find out. The question is do you let them find out now or later in life? That's a tough one to answer. I know if they knew it would bring some reality to her situation but it also brings pain to the kids. As far as I'm concerned their needs outweigh anyone elses. You are the person they need to be a hero right now. So you have to make the right choice for them. Thats the only advice I can really give on that.

AS for your other question about being buttered up. From what I understand and have seen you can't 'make deposits' as long as she is with the OM. It is pointless. You are also rewarding the wrong behaviour. Make the OM fulfill all her needs if he can. And if she is coming to you then he probably isn't. She has to see that he cannot fulfill all the needs and that you can.

There is something else I would like to bring to your attention. There is talk of this 2 year mark thing. I don't know a lot about it but from what I have read and understand most affairs of this nature break between the 1 1/2 to 2 year mark. FRom what you have been telling me you are starting to see signs of it. I would say continue what you are doing for a little longer and see how it goes. Give it a couple more months. Be patient and no LB's or talking about the OM. Also, if you have a few extra $$$ give the pros here a call. The Harleys that is. I believe they are pretty reasonable the last time I heard. A couple hundred to get the answers you need. I wish you the best of luck. We are both in the same boat. Just less kids. You must have rabbit genes.

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Thanks for keeping in touch TreborRose

As tough as it is for me to stomach the sitch, you are correct:
Quote
their needs (my children's) outweigh anyone elses...So you have to make the right choice for them.

So I will keep things as they are concerning visits/contacts. As I've mentioned B4, it is perplexing that W has not been adamant about having the kids on her own--or about introducing the kids to "IT/Om." Unfortunately, I believe it is mostly a financial matter--relying on me to invest in the visits(gas, food, etc.) than anything else.

It upsets me though--the "enabling" that I put myself through, and the going around in circles. That is, by making visits easy for her, I shelter the A from suffering. She does "see" that "It" cannot meet all her needs, but she does not "ackowledge" that deficiency & is even more tolerant of his faults/deficiencies than she was of mine.

---And we actually had a spat over exactly that just last night. Yes, I (erred/LBed/withdrew)/confronted her with "So I get to do things for you, & "It" gets to enjoy it?" Of course she did not like that & defended him.

I totally understand that her stance is merely defensiveness, & a coping mechanism so that she can maintain her sanity (insanity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)--avoidance of admitting that the A was merely an escape from reality; and her struggle to maintain the fantasy that it would bring better things for her.


Concerning the kids knowing about the A/"It"...they do. For several months B4 she left, W was around "It" & flirting whenever she went to visit her female friend. That why our daughters have disowned her, & that's why our sons don't feel comfortable being around her by themselves.


Now,
Quote
You must have rabbit genes.


Well...it took me a while to figure out that in order to work, the TV remote control uses batteries...! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ha, ha, ha <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Actually, we did try various methods of family planning, but we were both very fertile, and it seemed that "spontaniety?" usually did us in. But I wouldn't trade any of my babies for the world <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Thanks for giving me a lighter moment to enjoy & again, for keeping in touch.

I will look into investing into a "formal" opinion, probably next month when I get more funds. Take care & best wishes to you as well.


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Well here is al ittle background on my situation. As I said it is a lot like yours. I had the two boys and she moved out into her "own" place. Well as I found out OM wasn't actually living there, he was there all the time. He furnished the place with his stuff and he had a key. So what would you call it? I call it living together, but he did have his own place too. I did a background check on him and found out that he was a level two sexual preditor. Did jail time and everything. He actully was a level three, but a good lawyer, and they will deal that stuff in New York State.

So my next step was to have a lawyer prepare a letter basicaly naming him the reason that she was to lose all her rights to even see the children unsupervised. Then I called both her parents and let them know exactly what I did and why. Then I told her that she had 24 hours to inform anyone she had contact with that had children what she was now bringing around or I would. Well, needless to say he dropped out of the picture quickly. I should say he is under the radar, but I know he is still in the picture. At this time though, he has no contact with my children or her families children which is the main point.

After that for the past 6 months I have not really let her take the children at all, only recently have I let her start taking them to her house. Through all that 6 months I was in Plan A. I did give her money sometimes and helped her out just to show her I was there, and could always be counted on. At this time I have gone into Plan B.

So now that I can trust her to take them ( I am always watching though) I make her take them, for fairly long periods of time(like 12 hours at a time or over night. None of this two hours and what a fun day they had. She has to really deal with them. I send homework and everything. No way is it going to be all fun and games at her place and me be the real parent). The point of this is that in my opinion you cannot let her dictate your actions. You must show her that while you cannot contol her you can control you and no matter what, you are going to do the right thing for you and your children. You must set some parametors and no matter how difficult it is stick to them. Come up with a plan and work that plan. Always keep your eye on the prize and never take it off. You will not be sorry.

Sorry this is such a long post but I want you to see that others have been there too and there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I don't know if my W will ever come back to me but I do know that with God's hand I will get through it and be stronger for the experience. You will too, hang in there.


I don't really care if they label me a Jesus Freak - There ain't no denyng the truth - DC Talk
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jony,

It looks like you have a good plan together and well thought out. It took me a while to get one together but once you do it is a huge difference and help.

I have just one question for you. How did you get the background on the OM? I would like to do the same but haven't figured it out. Crazy how she would even consider a guy like that. I find that pathetic. Especially if you have children. Good that you have taken the steps to protect your children.

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Gg,

The Om may be with your w and that is very painful, I have lived that for 1y1/2. I tried at all costs to avoid my children having contact with om till one day it happened, she knew that would destroy me so she made sure i found out they went all out toghether to a pool party.
I have learned something now, you will always be important to your children no mater what, and believe me it is very dificukt for someone to take your place, specialy if you are a good Fth. Guess what my children dislike the Om quite a bit and that is to his disadvantage.

They have gone several times together for lunch.And he may want to be good and give presentes ,etc. but guess what , you are the guy that is always there for them, so don't worry, he still has a long and winding road ahead, and you really love your w & are the father of the kids, so you have a good head start.

hope this helps,
ps I will tell you all my story as well and hope you can give some advice,

regards,
2112

Well one thing for sure is there are a lot of us that have seen jesus´s teaching´s helpful.But you got to be strong to follow.

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2112,

Yeah, I know that in many things, there is always a "honeymoon" period. That is, if/when the Om & W first start visiting with my babies, they (Om/
W) will be on their "best behavior" and "tolerate" whatever (mis)behavs from the kids, then eventually, it'll all be just the same. I also have no fear of "loosing my place" in my kid's hearts. I just have not wanted to expose them to more pain than they've already been through.

However, after this weekend, I am finally gonna give that up, as much as it hurts me, and drop out of the picture completely except to verify visitation times/locations.

I think I've mentioned that I've felt the Om finally pressuring my W for all the "freetime" she finds for me and I got the brunt of that this weekend. After 4 days in a row of spending time with my W in the evenings (couple of hours at a time), she suddenly tells me Friday that she no longer wants me involved in visits and she no longer wants to talk with me at all, only for stuff about the kids.

We end up arguing all weekend, rehashing the A; the last nearly 2 years; her threatening what she's gonna do to me; and her just being impossible with taking any responsibility for her part in all this.

I am FED UP. I have detached over these last several months and I am tired of repeatedly going out of my way to try to "make deposits" since it only facilitates HER life, and really, the A as well. As long as I make things easier for her---for which she does not give me credit (& I'm not looking for it either)---it only makes it easier for continue in the A; and, at the least, make the A seem better that what it really is.

For ex: She actually has 4 incomes, hers (from 2 jobs!) the Oms, and the Oms dad, and SHE STILL struggles to make ends meet! What's more, she only throws pennies towards the kids, and moans about it when she does! And there I am helping her out financially, frequently, from my heart, to get her out of her ruts!

Neither will she will not ackowledge the emotional challenges of dealing with a (large)family & criticizes me for ANY parenting issues. She is unrealistic about so many things.

So, as much as it hurts me, I am going to have to drop out of the picture COMPLETELY (except for verifying her visitation times with the kids) and let her take the kids herself. I pray that they will be OK and not throw it back at me when they get older. Thanks for your thoughts and good luck to everyone.

Last edited by GGhoping; 01/23/06 06:54 PM.
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Hello everyone,

Just wanted to posts my thoughts. Feel free to chime in with any insights or info.

I was reviewing last week's events and I still cannot find it in my heart to let my babies suffer--letting W visit with them on her own & take them around the Om. If I could trust her, I wouldn't care. And I don't want that (them around Om) to happen until if/when there is a court order that makes it unavoidable.

Plus, the reaction from W about not wanting me around anymore was to be expected; and, at least to me, a sign that our contacts (mine & W's) are affecting the A/Om.

So I'm thinking that instead of just giving in (& dropping out completely), maybe I could stay involved, just to keep adding fuel to that fire.

I really don't care to see W. And I really am exhausted with the whole sitch. And I really am not even holding on to fix things anymore. If it happens, it happens, and since I don't have much of a choice in that matter anyway, I'm trying not to stress over what happens anymore.
Is it wrong to have devious intentions for maintaining contact with W (to stress the A)? Remember, I'm just free-thinking right now. I'm not trying to be bad. Release feels good though.
------------------------------------------------------------

What upset me on Friday was that I know she went out (yeah, I know I can't control her) and goodness knows what she did. I mean, why was it so hard for her just to call me back & say goodnight, gotta go, talk with you tomorrow. ESPECIALLY if (as she accuses me often) she "knows" that not calling back would upset me? I haven't been that way for nearly a year, but it's still something she holds onto.

Instead, she got VERY Defensive & sounded VERY guilty/ashamed over whatever she did that evening. It was more than her not wanting me to be snooping in her business. Her reaction was so severe that I could't help confronting her about it. Actually, I let myself REACT to her emotions, & let it affect me.

Yet, I only confronted her, AFTER & BECAUSE she became defensive. She did call back at Midnight, and when I simply said, "well, that was a long 5 minutes" She just tore into me!

So because of that reaction, in my mind, all the bad rumors I've been told about her popped into my head. I know that I shouldn't listen to rumors, especially in Smalltown, USA; however, many of the things that have been said about what she does is VERY hurtful to me. I know I should control my reactions and that it does no good to confront her, but again, I am not perfect, nor pretend to be.

After her reaction, which included cussing me (she does that often) I couldn't hold back & I told her that I had only made a simple comment and why did she feel so guilty? What in heavens WAS she doing to get so upset? And what had happened tonight for her to want me to disappear? Then things just went downhill from there for the rest of the weekend.

What are the rumors some might wonder? Well, that she hangs out at bars, gets drunk, flirts, & even sleeps around. Of course she denies all of it. And as much as I've tried to stay away from others, every so often, myself or one of my relatives, is "told" something else by random townfolks/family friends about her. I can say at least this much, that when she first left, she was "partying" pretty hard, but that seems to have ended within several months after her "friends" got tired of treating her. Now, honestly (& painfully), there are also some sexual issues to our sitch and sometimes it seems that she is "exploring" there as well.

Anyways, I don't know how I feel now. I thought I'd feel better, but now I think I re-opened some doors I didn't want to. I'm gonna have to think more about this visit thing...


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Hi Gg,

I hear you, mind really plays tricks on us and we imagine and hear a lot of things, and they may be true, or even worse. But forget about it. remember if you play with fire you get burnt sooner or later, so will she.


When we are sarcastic it is like a firecraker up a horses [censored](xcuse my wierd sayings), they just go nuts, so we have to avoid being sarcastic.

In the hardest times life requires from us things we don[t think we have, like being cool when you are hurting inside.


She will get tired, nothing is for ever and if you push she will run. just play cool and keep your heart at ease. Now be good to yourself, you are important and a good person wanting to do right, you will have your reward, you have already payed for your mistakes, but also you wished to do right, and will get your reward sooner or later.

She had a chance to make it right and chose to go wrong, justifying her actions blaming you.If you throw a black ball against the wall you will recieve a black ball not a white one.

Be patient give it time, and heal your wounds, this war ain't over. trust me.

If she sees that you are happy she will wonder what is going on and why you are not knoking at her door.
She knows she's got you way deep in her heart she knows, but that can change and when the A is a little bit older she will start to wonder.

You will sucseed just be patiend and do good to your kids and yourself, she is not in the game now. Don't give her weapons to use aginst you, like sarcasm and her knowing shes got you. just be cool, friendly and distant.and be happy ( yeah U can do it).

Plus there are a lot of beautiful women in the world. I know and you know there is one special one, but she doesn't have to know for now, she just can't see it. The things that we fear are weapons to be used against us, she knows your feelings. And doesn't care about them for now, wait some time. Heal the wounds.

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Hello everyone, just wanted to hop on and recap February 06, but moreso, just to journal after another down/blue time in my sitch.

The month started out status quo as per my last post, with myself teeter-tottering about how to handle visits. It ends up that I was still a part of them for the first part of the month.

For Valentine's Day, I ended up sending a fairly simple, yet nice flower arrangement-3 red carnations bordered with purple daisy/poseys--and a quite large "singing balloon" with a card from me, and then 3 heart boxes of chocolates, one from each son. This was delivered to her work. But that weekend before, we had another typical fall out/ spat, over her "going-out" and disappearing for the weekend-which is pretty much where she & I have been since.

I know I need to leave that alone, but it is so frustrating that after so long, she is still having her cake--barely talks/sees the kids, and still goes out for her fun on the weekends.

Since then, I've ended up completely cutting off ALL contact-no visits, and not even answering her calls. Which, by the way, she only calls once in the evenings and leaves a quick voice message on my cell phone (our daughter's have blocked W's # from the home phone) to say goodnight to our sons. Oh yeah, and she has yet to leave a voice message on a Saturday, at any time...too busy having her fun I guess. And she has done nothing to push for a visit with the kids--through me or by any other means.

So anyway, it's been over 2 weeks that I've maintained that stance and I'm wondering how long should I stay this way?

Oh, and as far as her reaction to the Valentine, after our spat--before she received it--I had told her, to just throw away what she was going to receive. She had not mentioned anything about it until after a few days of us not having contact with her. In one of her voice messages, she ends leaving a pathetically lame attempt to butter me up saying that she was going to keep it after all and that she did "think of what we had," so could I please call her back so she can talk with the boys.

I know I'm faltering, but I'm not perfect, ya know.

Something else, it has been getting harder for me to resist the temptation to actually find a girlfriend/companion in addition to the active (but minimal) flirting I've been doing. Hey, after 23 months, I miss having my fun too, ya know.

Anyway, util next time, I just wanted to let everyone know that I am still here, and to wish good luck to all with their respective sitches.


Gg

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