W2W,

You are awesome, really a strong person and an inspiration. Wishing you didn't have to go through this, but you are a shining light for your sons, who most likely sense some change has happened.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

this is very nice to read

How is your husband's attitude different than it was after D-day 4 yrs ago. Has he said anything to indicate that he is different than he was then? Was he as contrite and remorseful then?

You obviously now hold the cards and have the upper hand. You can cut your losses and move on, take a chance on the unknown out there. Or, you can take another chance at having a better marriage with the father of your children.

I agree, NC is imperative.

Hope you realize how much strength some of the new folks here are gaining just from reading "your Story." You are doing just great in the situation that many of us BS fear may be in our future and you are handling it with dignity, class, and a single purpose of mind.....a loving happy relationship either with your H or not. Stay tough and keep your eye on what is best for YOU!

Who

WTW,

Glad to here that you went to MC with the WS / FWS? The MC does sound like he has a good head on his shoulders. I especially like what he said about your option / not a commandment.

It was a good idea to follow through with your attorney and keep your options open. I'm glad that you didn't go for the Big "D" right away. You can always play that card later if circumstances merit it.

YOU are in control right now. Take a few days and really think about what you want to do. No one here will blame you if you decide to go for the bid "D". On the other hand if you decide to reconsile everyone here will be happy to support you in that also.

As for the "timing" of your WS's confession: Although the timing seems suspicious, my gut tells me to believe him! I will explain why.

I believe epiphany's happen. One happened to me. That is one of the reasons I am on the boards. It happened after a particularaly nasty arguement between my W & I (I'll spare you the details). As is my want, I went out of the house and "walked the fields". Only this time, instead of focusing on how angry I was with my W, I started to think about why / how the arguement started. I then started to think back about other arguements we'd had over the years. In those few hours that I was "walking" I started to see patterns in MY behavior that shocked me. I realized that if I kept up these patterns I could really endanger my marriage. By the end of this "walk" I vowed that I would NOT repeat these patterns and I would make changes for the better. I WOULD become a better husband to my wife.

That was a few years ago. IMHO our marrige has never been better than it is now.

That is my "ephipany" story. I truly hope something similiar happend with your WS.

You and your family are in my prayers. Whatever you decide to do!

Stay Strong!

The thing that is wierd is that he is much different this time than after the initial D-Day. I'll admit that I am curious as to how long it will last. The first time, he never really did show any remorse. I looked for it because I wanted it so badly. I think there was about a half a day of remorse. He seemed torn between what he wanted and what he knew was right. He was still distant. He was selfish. Now, I know why. Because he didn't intend to come back to our marriage.

Still, although he seems different, I am also different. I accepted whatever I could get back then.......... I demand more now. Maybe more than he is capable of giving. I don't know.

Plus, there is the whole other issue of how he hurt me. Seriously - 4 YEARS!!!!! It makes my stomach sick to think that a person can look me in the eyes every day for that long and knowingly lie to me. Use me. Betray me. Do those things to me knowing that I was giving everything I had to try and make the relationship improve. I don't know that I can get over that.

In the back of my mind, though, I know that I will HAVE to get over it at some point. Regardless of whether I stay married or not, I can't let the anger and resentment dictate my life. I know that I am entitled to my feelings for now, but as I look ahead, I also realize that I am going to have to find a way to deal with my feelings before I can achieve the happiness that I intend for my life.

All this talk about feelings and I don't even have any right now........ ironic, huh?

I have read this whole thing and waited and wondered about each new development/update.

I must say I am in awe of you and your strength right now! You have made such progress in a week. I love how you are now able to know what you want for yourself.

You seem so calm and determined. Keep up the good work.
Wow.

I started a long post last night then lost it. I will try again.

Okay, I understand that you are feeling different this time. It is odd how when one is willing the other isn't then it switches. How refreshing it is when both are on the same page at the same time. I would hate for you to miss an opportunity to have a restored marriage and family.

Pre-MB, aside from reading a bit in HNHN, after going through my H's 4 yr A with a couple of separations and false recoveries we reconciled and had at least a year of a honeymoon period. My H didn't understand the necessity for boundaries and still felt entitled to make whatever friends came his way. He didn't seem to understand about not befriending women or engaging in listening to women talk about their problems with relationships etc. I think he should have known better.

So, 2 yrs later he started another A which lasted 8 months with a different OW. (At first I suspected it was with the same OW) I was shocked that he didn't get it and allowed himself to get involved again in an A. It took me a while to figure it out. I felt a fool. All of a sudden at the start of the A he started being distant, disappearing for hours with lame excuses, picking little things to critcize me for, not engaging in conversation with me etc. When I was getting close to figuring it out we went on a 3 week trip to Europe. We had a great time until the last day when we were driving toward the city where we would spend the night before going to the airport the following morning. It got very stressful finding our way and we yelled at each other. He said I wouldn't listen or trust him to give directions...it was pretty lame really. I think that was an excuse to justify his preparing himself to go back to his A partner. Once home, he started drinking, staying out late without my being able to reach him. I put it together from the cell records (again!). Found out who it was and how they met.

I thought for sure I was done. I let him know that we would split everything up (we are in a no-fault state) and he can have her; we'd go our separate ways. I didn't want this anymore. I was devoid of the same kind of emotional turmoil as the last time except for the initial nausea...I was calm when I talked to him about it. He stupidly initially tried denial. i wouldn't buy it. I had found the MB website. A few weeks prior to my having proof I read about plan A and plan B.

I went to speak to our priest. He agreed to talk to him. The priest recommended a rational emotive counselor. We went to him for several sessions. He had us each read the book 'Three Minute Therapy'. He talked to my H about commitment and boundaries. At some point the light went on and he totally went NC, was completely remorseful, took the reigns in pushing for recovery. Meanwhile, I was still unsure, and felt that I would be seen as a fool or feel like a fool if I forgave him yet again. He continued to take the active roll. He read Surviving an Affair, and His Needs Your Needs. We went to the MB weekend.

It is now three years later and his is still as commited and reassuring of his love and devotion to our marriage and family. We are very happy together and do have a better marriage than ever before. We really have care and love for each other. We are recovered. Of course, there are no guarantees. Dr. Willard Harley says that we should ever trust our spouses 100%. I will say that most of the trust is restored...only due to his constant awareness to continue his reassurance. He never feels put upon...he is okay if he has a lifetime to prove his fidelity.

We will be married 30 yrs in July. We have been together 31 yrs. So there was a blip of several years of he!!. We learn and grow more in adversity than in easy times.

Our family is intact. I think we are better being together than had we DV. I am glad that we stayed married.

The choice is always yours. You have to live with yourself. You have every right to DV...or not, just as your counselor said it; he put it very well.

Dear WTW:

I can understand why you feel nothing right now. Sometimes the real facts hurt us too much. Your mind denies them, you go numb, because it is too painful for you. That happened to me after my H's A. I felt detached from everything. With time you can look at the facts closer, and your mind allows your true feelings to come out.

Within the past week you have found out, that your H continued his A and lied to you for four years. WTW, you and I have been through the initial As four years ago together. I can see myself in your position, and I can understand you so well. All of last week I have been thinking, how much it would hurt me to find out that my H would have lied to me for all this time.

The next big step after you found out about the continued A, was then that your H had his change of mind. Well, these two big events are enough -in my opinion to cause a major upset in everybody's mind.

I was very glad to hear, that you are tackling these huge challenges now with the help of your MC. From what you wrote, this MC has a very good approach and a good assessment of the current situation.

With all that said, here are some points I would like to bring upfor you to think about:

In the last four years I have learned a lot about As, about relationship dynamics. I read this wonderful quote: "In every relationship one person is the flower and one is the gardener". That is so true for many of us. Mostly the BS is the gardener, trying to make the relationship work, while the WS is selfish, in the center of attention, everything is about them. (I loved your statement how great it felt, that currently everything is about you -for a change).

My H changed to become the gardener after his A came out. He was remorseful, he courted me etc. Guess what...it didn't last. In our case the MC says that H's basic character will never change. And now we are back at our usual relationship pattern, where I try to keep things together and nice, and he is moody and takes and takes and takes without giving a lot in return.

The only way to change this pattern is to change my behavior. So last night I made him a nice hearty soup for dinner, waited fro him to come home late, lighted the candles and sat with him at the table- while he appreciated none of that. Then I cuddled up to him in bed and I got a coolish "I'm tired"...I got up and said that I was unhappy with the way he treated me and went to sleep in the guestroom. BAM, believe me I made a statement. This will put things in place for today, but after a couple of days it is back to the usual.

That exactly is my concern for you (and Cherished and myself and many others here). There are certain relationship patterns that are very hard, if not impossible, to change. We BSs have contributed to this pattern by not setting limits. I often ask myself if this is worth it. We are married to men, who are no givers, no gardeners.

Let's give your H the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is fighting now to keep you. What will happen once you are back in the M and he has the upper hand again. He has treated you so badly for so long - and didn't have a problem with that. I am afraid that as long as you are the one retreating and he has to chase after you, you'll be fine. But once things are back to normal, what then?

Your MC is right, you need time to figure out for yourself what you want. Any decision you make will be the right one. At one point I made a list and wrote down the advantages and disadvantages of divorce or stay together. When you sit down to make this list, you start to reflect on your situation and your feelings. Take the time to write. A list or a journal of your thoughts.

And stay strong. You realize now that you have that strength, right WTW? You have it in you and once you show it, others react to you differently. Whatever you decide, make one vow to yourself now: that you will never again allow anyone to treat you with disrespect.

I'll continue checking on you. I am worried about you, but somehow glad as well that one way or the other your situation will improve now.

Hugs,

That is just it, we can't let things get back to normal. We can't get complacent. We need periodic relationship tune ups and take assessment or take the temperature of the marriage.

We need to follow the 4 Rules of a Successful Marriage. We need to not be conflict avoiders. It takes awareness and effort. It isn't always easy.

No relationship will be always easy. Every relationship would require work. Sure there are low times or ebb and flow of moods. We need to change our old patterns and approach each other with care.

But, it has to be a commitment that both of you(us) make(s) to not allow the relationship to fall into those old patterns which we now know don't work.

It helped to work through the MB home study program together to be on the same page with the comprehension of these principles.

I had another session with the counselor this morning – by myself.

The reality here is that I am the one who has to make a choice – and there are really no good options. I am furious that I have been put in this position, truthfully. It is not fair. But, it is my reality. There are no guarantees and no right or wrong answers. Just several cluttered paths, none of which are really attractive at this point. Oh, don’t forget that I am pretty much standing in a fire right now, so staying where I am is not an option either.

Anyone else been here before? (add sarcasm to that statement)

I don’t want to make a choice. It is not easy. When I found out about the continued A, I was relived because I felt like WH had made my choice for me. However, his willingness to fight for the marriage put the ball back in my court. I am back to making the decision for myself. The only thing that I am sure of right now is that I will not stay in a relationship that is not happy and where I am not treated with respect. I just can’t see how to get that right now because I don’t trust anything.

It’s not that I don’t see happiness at the end of the path. I see a possibility for happiness at the end of several of the paths. I just don’t know whether they are real possibilities or illusions right now. Make sense?

It was nice to hear lots of the same philosophy from my counselor that I have read about from Dr. Harley. My MC talked about this being the worst possible type of situation since we are dealing with a LTA. He talked about setting boundaries. So many other things that many have you have brought up. I drew some comfort from that.

I just re-read my post above. It sure sounds dreary! I do not feel dreary - just confused. Releived that things are going to change, but confused about the best way to make the change happen.

My only comment would be that you cannot screw up this decision. Given where you are coming from, any decision that you are contemplating is going to be better than where you have been in the last years of your life.

WTW,
Why are you on the firing line? You don't have to make a decision right NOW do you? I don't know if this is acceptable but what if....WH moves out for a while, you go into plan B to remove yourself from some of this pain, let him work w/IC for awhile too, then let him prove his intentions and earn his way home IF that's what you want.

You've worked so hard...you need a break...why make permanent decisions while in all this turmoil?

W2W,
I just wanted to add, along with everyone else that I admire your strength. If I could have handled things they way you are at the beginning of my situation, I often wonder if things would have turned out differently.

I know with each D-day, I had a different reaction from my WH also. On Dday #1, I got the standard I love you but I'm not in love with you line. He was so confused, as he and OW had discussed a future together and he didn't know what to do. He wanted to "get over her" at his own pace he said. Well, HELLO, you need no contact for that to happen!!! I think that should be logical, whether you follow Dr. Harley's plan or not! He felt I wasn't being patient with him!!! It was a about 3 months before he could finally promise no contact. Well, NC didn't happen, since there were more d-days.

On Dday #2, I was sure he'd seen the light.
Shortly after #2, I had all the D papers filled out and I'd been working on getting a loan myself to get into a different house as a single mom.
He said he had some sort of revelation and woke up......So, I gave in and tried again. He even seemed remorseful, which was a change because after Dday #1, he said he was not sorry about the A because our marriage was in such a shambles anyway.

He always said he wasn't contacting her anymore (which would sort of be true for a few days while he said it) and seemed to be trying so hard to make himself accountable. He was addicted to her and since he has an addictive personality, when he tries to get rid of those demons, it never lasts long.

It went well for many months. Then I got an email from OW one day to let me know he'd emailed her. My world came crashing down again. I guess this would be D-day #3. To this day, he denies it was him because OW deleted the email and I couldn't show him any "proof." She said she tried to retrieve it from the "trash" but her account has an auto-empty thing every day.
I know it was him though, and he knows it was him. And of course OW knows it was him. I just don't know where that leaves us. A few more months have gone by again and I pretty much just wonder when it will happen again.

I think that what my WH learned from all of this was just to deny everything, no matter what and that what I don't know won't hurt me. I could be totally wrong on that and it may just be my bitterness talking.
As someone mentioned earlier, things can start to fall back into the old patterns so easily. I know that since all of this happened my WH and I do treat each other much better most of the time, but it really is easy to slip back into the old patterns occassionally.

I am wondering, for you, where does OW come in at this point? Have you talked to her? Maybe she dumped him.
For my situatuion, OW chose her BF over my WH after the A was exposed, and that added to his "saddness" and withdrawal. Yes, I feel second best and it is not a good feeling. OW never got to wake up next to his bad breath and wash his dirty underwear and hear his explosions when things don't go right. All she got to see was the charming side of him. She said she only saw his "horns come out" a couple times and obviously has no idea of his temper.
That's why I am wondering if you know what the OW's position is right now in all of this for your situation.

I don't understand why she would need to Plan B her H, since he in ending the A or has ended the A...or willing to do whatever necessary to save the M. I don't think that is what Plan B is meant to be used for. Yes, she can separate to get some breathing room but I don't see how that will help.

WTW,
I have been following your thread and I feel your pain. I wish the best for you and I understand how impossible your decisions are.

I just wanted to add a bit to what others have said about relationship dynamics. My H and I are doing great in so many ways in our recovery. We have been in MC/IC for nearly 2 years and I have to say we would have never made it without our MC.

What we are really working on now (besides dealing with sporatic triggers!), are issues that were in our marriage before my H affair. It is so hard to change PERMANENTLY many of the behaviors/beliefs each of you have.......even when you really, really want to! When we both are working at it and things are smooth, it is great. But as soon as a conflict emerges, we both sink back into old patterns and it is so discouraging to me. That is my biggest fear now. Not that the A will resume or he will do it again. My biggest fear is that we will slowly return to our prior state of marriage and all of the pain and heartache will be for nothing.

Now our marriage was not even in a terrible state before. I didn't really even know there was anything wrong, just a 20 year old marriage and life had taken alot from it. Obviously, I was wrong. Our MC has shown me how my H has really been all about him and his needs for the whole marriage and I am a conflict avoiding, psychotic Snow White pleaser. (He used psychotic just to show how far over from the center I have been. H is just as far over on the taker, me-me side.) But we always generally got along well and my H treated me well.

I know the difference now. I know what it can be and is becoming. But the permanancy of the changes seem so frail to me and THAT is my biggest fear. I often feel like I want to give up and just be the way that is confortable for me, but that is bad for our marriage. Engaging in conflict or sharing negative/unpleasant feelings with him causes me more pain and grief. If it wasn't for our MC pushing me along, I know eventually I would return to what was comfy for me.

I guess my very lengthy post is to validate what others have said about the difficulty in changing marital dynamics. Especially if you have been married for a long time. I am not saying it can't be done! I am praying that is not true! But I feel the pain and frustration at my OWN slow progress in change and question the strength of his.


Good luck! You have so many people rooting for you whichever decision you make.

I agree with the above, the affair has ended, so no need for plan b. There is no rush to make a decision. One day at a time. Continue MC and IC. Things will become more clear once you observe his ACTIONS, not words. You have set boundaries now. I hope he will change jobs. That would be at the top of my list. Actions, not words.

Anything is possible with love.

IcePrincess is right on !!!

she said:

You have all hit the nail on the head. The biggest issue that I have is the concern that things will eventually slip back to the way they were if I stay in the marriage. I didn't see it happening last time, so what if it happens and I don't see it again?

My counselor told me that there are no guarantees for anything. When I put him on the spot regarding how long it would be before I knew if WH was really willing to change, he told me that I should know in my heart within 6 months. If there has not been enough change in 6 months for me to feel comfortable and have some sense of trust, then I will probably never get there. So, do I give it 6 months? That is what I am pondering.....

He also reminded me that the work is really for WH to do right now. That if I decide to commit to the marraige, then the so-called 'burden of proof' is on WH. He said that he is empathetic to the WS's that he sees, but not sympathetic. He said that if I do stay, it MUST be with the understanding to WH that I will not tolerate any affair, mistreatment, or disrespect. That if WH does things without MY best interest at heart, then my commitment ends. He said that he and WH would have lots of things to work through and WH's willingness to do those things would be evidence of his commitment to me (or not).

He told me that the three things necessary for the foundation of a good marriage are trust, love, and commitment. Right now, I feel none of those. The question I must ask myself is 'can I have those with WH eventually and do I even want them with WH?'

I still do not have feelings. However, my counselor told me that he knows me well enough to believe that I do HAVE feelings, and that blocking them out is just my way of dealing with things right now. He said from my tone and my body language, he can tell that I am very angry. And he can tell from my eyes that I am very hurt. As I should be. But, for now, I am surviving. That is the best I can do.