This is off the infidelity topic, somewhat, but I thought I would try posting here as I am sure that there will be some good points raised by you folk. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I have this 29 year old friend, (not me, it really IS someone else) who has never been married. He was not brought up with any religion but is seeing an older divorced woman who is a Christian. She insists that they will not marry until he becomes a Christian too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


My question: what do you think are the pros and cons of him converting to Christianity [color:"blue"] IN ORDER TO MARRY [/color] this woman?

In most churches Christians are taught not to marry someone who is not of the same faith as them. It is called being unequally yoked in the Bible. That refurrs to a yoke of oxen who will not be pulling or working together. It is a bad idea to try to force a decision though because faith is something that needs to be holehearted or it isn't realy there at all. If he is willing to be open minded and look into Christianity to see if he realy can have faith in Christ then their relationship may have a chance but he needs to stay totally honest about his decissions and oppinions.

Speaking purely from a Christian standpoint, she has already "unequally yoked" herself by getting involved with someone who does not share her faith. However, a marriage is a much greater "yoke" and I PERSONALLY would in no way, shape, or form enter into a marriage to someone with whom I could not agree spiritually.

That said, I believe if he has no intention of being the spiritual head of that household, he should stay away from a committed relationship with her. End of story. To a devout Christian, it would be the ultimate POJA. A devoted and grounded Christian would not settle for a marriage built on a shaky foundation, and that includes entering into the marriage covenant with someone who did not share their faith enthusiastically. My own mother used their engagement as blackmail to get my father to convert to Christianity--it was and continues to be a constant source of discord in their marriage. He still, 35 years later, is not enthusiastic.

often we meet people who change our lives...
certainly a future spouse can change our lives enough to elicit great changes inside of them..

I know lots of people who have embraced, educated, learned and been iniated in to different sects based on their spouses/significant others religious choice..

lots of people brought up with no religion are seeking such a home...

there's nothing for us to think about it really...
how would we ever know anyone elses heart in that realm..

ARK

Enigma - This is NOT a situation of "pros and cons." This is an issue of spiritual faith and God.

I, myself, faced the same situation. My reaction was really quite simple because I both loved and respected my, at the time, fiance. My reaction was "if I don't get some answers to my questions that I can accept (I was Agnostic at the time), we will NOT be getting married." If you truly love someone, you should be willing to "DIE" for them. Not getting married would be a "form" of death for someone who IS truly in love, just as Christ died for us.

But to "convert" just to get married and have "ACCESS" to "legitmate sex," is a recipe for future disaster. Once CANNOT fake acceptance of Christ. Let me correct that, one CAN "fake it," but sooner or later the trials, temptations, and tribulations of life will "put that claim to the test." Acceptance of Jesus Christ as one's personal LORD and SAVIOR [color:"blue"]is[/color] a life-changing event.

Let's just take ONE divergent position, as an example of a potential future dilemna.

The Christian position: Thou shalt NOT commit adultery. No "suggestion," a clear and unequivocable COMMAND, an external STANDARD of behavior that a Christian submits their "wants and desires" to no matter what "ups and downs" are ocurring in their marriage.

The Secular position: "If it FEELS good, do it. You answer to no one but yourself and your emotions override all other concerns. It's "okay" to commit adultery because "everyone is doing it." Commitment??? It's no longer "Until death do us part." Now it's "until I no longer FEEL loving toward you."

You, and your friend, can (and will) take your pick. It's one or the other despite all the potential objections from others. On the one hand, GOD sets the standards that you are to live your life by no matter what you think or feel. On the other hand, the individual is their own "god" and can behave however they choose to behave and believe is "in their own best interest."

"Choose wisely, Grasshopper," as the universal truth we all must face every day.

God bless.

First - it is my understanding that Christianity is not a religion. Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc are religions. So, is this woman asking this man to change his religion? Or is he a non believer and she is asking him to believe?

I know many people who have changed their religions to marry the person they love. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but it has worked for many people.

So I guess it would depend on what you are really talking about.

Some years ago, when my kids were small, I had two friends who were married to Jewish men. Before they were married, each of their financees desired them to convert to Judaism.

One of them did. She took all of the classes and became a part of their temple. Their children were raised Jewish. From what I saw, it was not a happy marriage. I've often wondered if they stuck it out.

The other didn't convert. She had a funny way of describing it. She said that when her boyfriend proposed to her. She said "yes". When he laid the conversion thing on her, she got mad. She looked him in the eye and said, "So, I'm good enough to sleep with but not good enough to marry?!?! If that's the case, get your things and leave!" Within a day, her boyfriend came crawling back and asked her to marry again without conditions. From what I saw, it was a very happy marriage.

Your friend shouldn't convert unless he really believes. He shouldn't do it merely to please her. Lots of marriages work without people being of the same faith. It helps but there are plenty of people on this site with a WS who always went to church with them.

I think that spirituality is such an important facet of one's life, that I cannot imagine considering marrying someone who did not share my worldview. My Christianity is the foundation of who I am, the key to my worldview. To not be able to share my life with someone who understands my worldview is just unfathomable to me. It would be an impossible relationship for me.

While some religiously mixed marriages do work out, many don't. In fact, I think statistically, religious differences are a key factor for divorce.

The bottom line is that Christians are admonished to not marry non-Christians and I think it makes perfect sense. Marriage is hard enough without having to heap on the inevitable problems that religious differences would bring, ie: about churches and children, etc, not to mention the major problem of differing world views.

That being said, I personally think its a mistake to date outside of your religion if that is going to be a deal breaker for marriage. If your friend had limited his dating to viable candidates in the first place, he wouldn't be in a position of having to force his partner to make such a critical decision.

Enigma,

I actually have had friends in both circumstances of being married to opposite faiths.

In one friendship,a woman who I knew and went to school with and graduated with as an RN married a Jewish man.Her family was devout Catholic though she wasn't as stringent.Over the years,pressure from both families got to be too great for them and they divorced.They couldn't be left along to just love one another,religion came between them and two families made it all the more difficult for them.It was sad.

Now I have some friends that live down the street from me,the husband is Christian and the wife Jewish.They celebrate both faiths and bring their children up in a loving home embracing both worlds.It's fun for them and they are supportive of eachother and do not have issues with their families.

Personally,I would be hesitant to marry someone who had conditions for being married.I know that is not really what you asked but for me,the cons include being pressured into somehting I may not agree with.Not a good way to start any POJA.I would just worry about pressures and families and conflict if there wasn't a caring and supportive measure to any issue first not,I can't marry you if your not Christian.Maybe this friend will not be too bothered by converting if he really loves her.Then again maybe he will not find that acceptable.Who knows.

Since he doesn't have any one particular faith he follows,maybe he can do some research and talk to someone about it beforehand.What does your friend think about what the woman said? Does he want to marry her?

O

I am surprised at the responses....

I think that in living a Godly life...believing and practicing your faith...in such a way that defines who you are and what you believe...is a huge drawing factor

it can be the exact gift that draws people to us...that are interested in us....

and through certain examples people become intrigued and see the value of such a way of life...that in loving the person they come to love the core beliefs of that person and can and do come to embrace them in a spiritual journey that is an amazing thing....

someone who is brought up with no religion as is the example in the first post...can be extremely ripe for discovering, exploring and seeking a deep deep faith...a 29 year old male may be ready to seek more...as he leaves his twenties and matures toward less self centered behavior and more altruistic actions...

some of the most prolific religious leaders have huge role models who they note and give great credit to in shaping their faith....some begining with no or little faith....

some have huge conversions in to different sects
some have none and embrace that of their spouse through learning more through them and the church....

all of us should be open to learning from others
all of us should embrace in to our lives those qualities of others that we believe make us better people....

I don't see anything wrong with someone you are dating being that initial role model....and in wanting to "have what they have" in the faith realm converting themselves...
to be with them
and to better understand them and their own selves...

I am not sure that we can know the true moment of a conversion for anyone....some born in to religions go through the motions for many years...and then have an empiphany....some never do perhaps...

some convert in words...and later in their hearts and souls....

so many variables.......
but no matter what I would say the willingness to try
the willingness to convert if that is something you value...

the willingness to not convert because your own core beliefs can not fathom another route....

are all admirable decisions....

the most important key is the willingness to be open and communicate about it....

Infact it may naive to expect whole hearted conversion on our time table....
it is in God's hand....

and a person choosing should be celebrated not judged for again we know not their hearts.....and we know not what is planned for their hearts.....

and in fact if and when you know someone converting to something...we should as a community support them in prayer and in words....

and for every conversion marriage gone a wry...there is a conversion marriage gone a blessed....

I would say that all religious marriages have ebbs and tides of one being more 'faithful' or 'spiritual' or whatever....that a good religious life is full of questioning and challenging.....ourselves and our spouses...

sometimes we lead...sometimes we follow...and hopefully a lot of times we walk side by side...

ARK

Oh please, FH, not again. Do you still think that only people of YOUR chosen faith know right from wrong? What a bunch of utter baloney. Christians do not have a monopoly on moral behavior, and to imply such is one of the most offensive things I've ever seen posted on this board. Not just offensive to us non-religious types, but also to those of other faiths.

If your mantra were actually true, then no Christian would ever enter into an A. And you know that many As have been carried on between Christians, in fact, several have been referenced here. Church appears to be a great place to "hook up" as the young people would call it. On the other hand, if your mantra were true, then every single non-Christian in the world WOULD have an A, and that's not the case either. Methinks you generalize a bit too much, FH.

As to the poster's question: whether converting is the right thing to do depends on the situation, of course. Religious affiliation is very important to some people, less important to others. But like marriage, it's an important decision that should not be entered into lightly. And as a Christian, you would be expected to take on certain roles that FH, Mortarman, and other Christian men here can enlighten you on far better than I can. I personally find the "roles" a bit outdated and totally out of touch the realities of modern society. For example, I have a real problem with the Christian belief that men are not entitled to love and women are not entitled to respect. But these roles seem to work for some people, and if they do, great.

GBH, you sadly miss the point. "Converting" to a religion of some type is NOT the issue. Accepting our own sorry state as sinners and accepting the Gift of God that is Jesus Christ is the issue, at least in the case under discussion, if not in your own case.

Whether or not Engima's friend's fiancee accepts Jesus Christ as his own personal Lord and Savior IS the question of relevance. You can feel free to attack Christianity all you want, but I am NOT talking about "perfection" or "play acting at converting" in order to get what he wants. I am talking about a personal experience with the Lord and being "born-again," forgiven and beginning a lifetime of the process of Sanctification. I am talking about God's clear command to current CHRISTIANS to NOT be unevenly yoked together in marriage with an unbeliever.

It may me "okay" with you, GBH, but it is a direct violation of a command of God. We ARE free to "do as we wish" and ignore God. But let's not "blame God" for future problems that might happen because we chose against His commands (and that is also true for Christians who sin in direct violation of God's commands as they succumb to the temptations of sin). WE choose. We choose all the time. What SHOULD BE our "frame of reference" for determining the "right and wrong" of the potential choices we are faced with? Our own feelings and imaginings? Or God's immutable commands?

But GBH is SUCH a man of wisdom that one should consider his "advice" carefully, especially on matters of faith and the Christian walk.

After all, WHO is the sovereign authority in OUR individual lives IS the ultimate question no matter how he likes to denegrate Christianity or attack me personally for MY faith.

But never let it be said that GBH missed an opportunity to bash fundamental Christianity in his holier than thou brand of openness and acceptability. He is demonstrably superior in that department.

GBH, for what it's worth, it's not an issue of "knowing right and wrong." We all have that capacity as a result of the FALL. It is the capacity to surrender our will to God's will that is determined by who our "Father" is. As in ALL cases, there can only be ONE true Father, no matter what we might want to think. Who that Father is WILL determine our responses and our ability to forgive as we ourselves have been forgiven. Unless we are "born again" through the only provision by the FATHER, we cannot be "true children" and God cannot be our "true Father." Until then, the "god of this world" rules in our hearts and minds and determines the "path we will follow" and how we will respond and choose. We can live in denial of that fact, and fool ourselves that "we are in control," but it's a fools paradise that is shrouded in fog and the reality is hidden.

Assuming that Enigma's friend IS a Christian and is "born-again," then the issue really is MOOT. She is not free to marry an unbeliever unless she chooses to sin in direct violation of God's command. My guess is that she loves the LORD and is NOT willing to willfully sin against God. Hence her statement to her fiancee. HIS decision, for or against Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, WILL determine whether or not they enter a covenant of marriage with God. But I don't really expect you to understand that, or what such a covenant means.

Hence my previous answer was directed to Engima, in answer to her question regarding her CHRISTIAN friend.

Just a side note to GBH - you sadly don't understand the first thing about "God-given roles" for husbands and wives. It is sad, but it's not surprising.

If it's "entitlement" you want to talk about and use as a smokescreen, I'll be happy to discuss that with you on another thead. But I doubt the sincerity of your statement and the sincerity of any inquiry you might have in that area. You seek to merely use your "interpretation" as justification for your behavior and choices that reject Christ and Christianity.

GBH, you stated: "I personally find the "roles" a bit outdated and totally out of touch the realities of modern society."

Yep, you are right, GBH. We should all embrace the ever changing morals and mores of society as THE standards to go by. That way "anything goes" and there IS no immutable standard of "right and wrong." All is "right" if "we" ourselves say it's right! In short, the 60's mantra of "if it feels good, do it!" is true and right and any contrary position is wrong. "There is NO SUCH THING AS SIN." Now where have I heard that lie before????

How dare anyone say that adultery is wrong?!?!?!?

How dare anyone say that abortion and the deliberate taking of another person's life is wrong?!?!?!?

How dare anyone say that marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman?!?!?!?

How dare anyone suggest that ANY moral or ethical position that THEY hold should apply to anyone else?!?!?

Commandments? Naw...no such thing....only "suggestions" that have no imperative or authoritativeness to them.

Just ask GBH for definitive confirmation.

GBH, do you really believe all this drivel you are arguing for?

In for a penny, GBH, in for a pound.

FH, I have never, ever, not once, said that adultry, killing, or violating any of the ten commandments is okay.

And the part about the "roles" that I object to has NOTHING to do with commandments or with moral issues. It has to do with some of what certain Christian male posters have put here that basically denies a woman's right to RESPECT, and where it says that a woman must SUBMIT to (IOW obey) her husband. THAT is what I have a problem with, FH, and that has nothing to do with what is morally right or wrong.

Let me give an example and this is purely hypothetical. Say a husband demands that a woman submit to sodomy yet she finds that particular "act of love" objectionable and declines to do so. So would her lack of "submission" be considered an immoral act? A sin? I think not.

Or how about a wife who must "submit" to her husband's demand that she not ever be allowed to get a job (either paid or volunteer), even if it's just during school hours and doesn't interfere with child care? Or to take it a step further, that she never leave the house without her husband's permission. My point is that the whole thing about "submission" basically gives a Christian man free license to be controlling and basically imprison his wife if he so chooses.

In fact, isn't the basic concept of a wife "submitting to her husband" contrary to the MB concept of POJA? I say it is, seeing as how submission essentially means backing off, being compliant and meek, and not standing up for oneself. This certainly doesn't sound like enthusiastic agreement on anything.

More importantly, how dare you claim that I condone adultry or killing or other unquestionably immoral acts? I challenge you to find a single post where I ever said "if it feels good, do it" or where I said "commantments are only suggestions" or "anything goes." You won't find one.

I do question the moral superiority displayed by some Christians. I have seen Christians display some incredibly hateful behavior, all under the guise of their self-proclaimed moral superiority and yes, it really pushes my buttons when I hear you say that Christians are the only people with morals.

But for you to accuse me of condoning infidelity, killing, and other inexcusable acts is way over the top, FH.

oh come on gbh....been here long enough to never ever ever have seen a post like you are talking bout...

why does this HAVE to turn in to personal crap...??
why what's the point...

can't you grownups just agree to disagree...without all these personal soap boxes..

the lumpings of Christians and posts based on one posters opinion..

there's never been a post here about someone not being allowed to get a job under some ridiculous guise of Christianity...
and no one here would support it cause DA MAN said so...
sheeeesh....
(besides people that controlled by their religious freaky right Brothers..would never be allowed to type on a computer..too busy bare footed in the kitchen cooking ya know..)


oh vey...
silly silly silly...

ARK

Because I get offended being told that I have no morals because I'm not Christian.


Perhaps that's why FH's wife doesn't post?


You are right... quite silly, even pointless, to argue with a zealot.

You are right... quite silly, even pointless, to argue with a zealot.

see this is the day of new priceless tag lines for the year 2006...infact we should start a post highlighting the wisdom born here for a whole year....

and that would definitely make it....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
ARKIE

arkie - that was a beautiful post (your first one above). We all should be open to learning throughout life. I'm currently learning to make crab cakes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Talk about a religious experience!

But similar to what GBH said, FH is once again over the top suggesting - no, declaring - that knowing right from wrong is a capability secular folks cannot be credited with accomplishing, no matter what. Then when someone calls him on it, it's an "attack" on his faith. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Who's attacking whom, here? Very silly, indeed. Very, very silly.

On a side note, when Prime Minister Sharon is awakened by the docs, anxious to determine if any permant disability resulted from his massive stroke, I predict he'll think he's Pat Robertson. Talk about brain damage!

robertson has lost the gatekeeper inside his frontal lobe...

he is like someone who hit the windshield going 50 miles per hour...

good grief....

ARKie...

LOL!! Thank you WAT, you made me laugh. And ark, thank you too, for both the compliment and for smacking me upside the head for getting all worked up about this in the first place.