I am still struggling with the personal attacks...all in the name of Christianity.....

HOW DOES THIS CRAP HELP ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ark....

My ex-FIL said he converted to Chruch of Christ to marry my ex-H's mother. He *never* actually believed. It was a family "joke"... ha ha... right?

This is very serious. And I would say this no matter what religion the person is...

To convert because you want to be close to God, or to unite your family, is honorable, to me, but to make someone happy when you do not believe is dishonest to the person you're trying to please (in this case, the girlfriend or wife)... and I would think would build resentment in the person professing a belief they don't actually hold.

FH and Mortarman,

You know, you both have a following around here... and I don't doubt your sincerity.

You speak to (and, I suspect you believe "for") the Christians. But since it's not the Christians you want to reach, but the non-Christians (lest you be 'preaching to the choir)... I have to ask... Do you actually think that mocking people's beliefs, calling names, and lifting yourself to a plane higher then non-Christians is benefitting your cause? In short, would people want to turn to Christ by reading your words?

FH, your sig line says "In Christlike love at all times." Do you honestly believe that you're acting from that place when you write here?

I thought Christ was about love, not division. And please, do not lecture me about the narrow road or judgement, et al. I'm in the chior.

Hey WAT. I'm glad you get those things, because that was what FH was trying to impart and some of the posters here still arent getting. They view it as a personal attack, when no attack was intended.

On your question of being better off, I would have to answer "it depends." If that guy is NOT a Christian, then neither of you are better or worse off. Oh, in this life...sure. The person that conforms to socities norms the best can have the better life than someone that doesnt. But, with life...there are still no guarantees. We all have heard people wonder why the good guys get hammered, while the bad guys seem to get away, right??

Look, if that guy is not a Christian, then he has the same problem before God as any moral atheist. To God, the punishment is the same for the raping mass murderer atheist and the atheist that gave his whole life to helping his fellow man. As I said above, for God...it isnt that we do wrong that sends us to He!!, it is that we ARE wrong...every last one of us.

If that guy is a Christian and he did this, then some things will become very evident in his life. First and foremost, God will punish His children. Nonbelievers are not His children, so He will not punish them. He will not spank them. Not in this life. But the believer that is sinning will find God's hand on their backside. The Bible is filled with just such men and women. I know many of my brothers and sisters in Christ that have felt the hand of God on their backside. Shoot, I know what it feels like!!

By becoming one of His children, we subject ourselves to His rules, His will. And thus, if this guy is a believer, he is in for a little butt whoppin!

I agree that in this life, subjecting ourselves to the rules of society tends to make things better. But, I really dont try to look at this life outside of the context of what happens when we die. We can make decisions that can seem good in this life and help us here, only to doom us once we die.

Thanks for bringing that up WAT!

In His arms.

Argggggghhh!!!! I just spent the better part of an hour constructing a reply to a number of the posts that have appeared on this thread ..... and then lost it in cyberspace.

It was a fairly well considered reply too, if I do say so myself.

Firstly, I am stunned <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> at the discussion that has developed here. I was initially going to post this in Pre-Marriage and the Early Years, but thought (correctly) that there would be a better response here. What I didn't anticipate was the amount of handbag throwing and jelly wrestling that this thread would generate.

I have read all three pages now, although I will admit to skimming over the one-on-one battles just a little. In the post I deleted, I had extracted the salient points from a number of post and had addressed them. I can't redo that now, so will have to summarise briefly.

It seems that to convert to a religion as a means to an end (ie, in order to marry)would be an unsatisfactory situation. That said, this could also be a catalyst for him to begin a long and fulfiling spiritual journey.

Some questions popped up about the situation: she is divorced after a 13 year marriage and has a 9 year old child. The reason for the divorce was that they "grew apart". She is older than him by about 8 years. This is his first serious relationship. He has, until now, never taken a girlfriend home to meet his parents!!

I was quite startled when the issue of not marrying unless he becomes a Christian came up. I also question what her motives are and whether it is simply a power issue. Wait!!!! Just to clarify that a bit further, she seems to have set a down LOT of the conditions for their relationship. Which is to be expected, I suppose given that he has not had much experience with relationships and she also has to consider the interests of her son.

I don't think that this is really an issue of Christians vs Seculartarians (is there such a word??). It is simply an issue of "what conditions are reasonable to stipulate prior to marriage/"

thanks for your responses everyone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Who said God had anything to do with that? I dont know the case, so I cannot speak to it. And maybe that woman is a Christian. I do not know. But I do know that God is just, which means when something is unjust, it isnt of Him.


Again, how did God murder this child? Just because this woman says she is a Christian, does that mean she is? There are many people, even in my own church, that will one day face Jesus and find out that He never knew them.


Nice use of words...sect! You are good at throwing around words, GBH. As I said before though, I dont know the story so I can speak to it. But if there was injustice, it wasnt God's doing. There is a very real being called Satan. He is the most powerful being on this planet, after God. He is even more powerful than angels. And satan has dominion here. When you see things like that happening, you have to ask yourself "Who is behind this?" Remember, we ALL serve either Jesus or Satan. Jesus even said so when He said that we are either for Him or against Him. There is no middle ground! Which means many that were involved in that case and with that woman may find a rude awakening.


Thats okay, if you're talking about a worldly problem like maybe a gambling debt. But YOU can never get out of your state in relation to God. You are not capable. Nothing you do, nothing you say, can ever bridge the chasm between you and Him. All of us are that way. I am no better or worse than you are. But...I made a decision that I wasnt going to pay for it myself, I wasnt going to stay where I am at. I made the decision that rather than serve Satan, I will serve a different master. One that paid for all that I have done. And lived. You see, when we try to do it ourselves, we only die. He did it for all of us...and lived.

As I have said countless times GBH, I cant make you believe in what Christ did for you 2000 years ago. It isnt even my responsibility, nor really my concern. I use to grieve over those that die and never knew the Lord. When a friend's father died years ago, and I knew his father wasnt saved, I was distressed to know that his father was in He!! at that very moment. I liked his dad...he had been very good to me.

But I look at it now that his father, and every other ubeliever, doesnt get sent to He!!. They choose He!!. They choose it because there is an alternative, there is another way. And thus, I am actually a little upset with those that turn down and tramble the very man that gave up His life for them. And treat Him like He is nothing. He is my King, and to watch people treat Him the way they do makes me very upset.

But be that as it may...it isnt my problem. Jesus is big enough, I would guess, to handle all of this.

GBH, as I have others on here that have so ridiculed my Lord...I have and will pray that the Lord reaches you. I will hope that you will chose wisely before it is too late.

I have seen Jesus...I know Him personally. So when I hear what you are saying here, I know the fact of the matter is that you are wrong. Dead wrong. But I cant make you see what you dont want to see.

This isnt that you cant accept Jesus....it is that you wont. It is a matter of will. And thus, you choose. And you will be without excuse when you kneel before Him.

In His arms.

Poor Engima. You asked a valid question and my answer to that is the same as others have said. If she wants him to become "Christian" as in believe, that is a journey he has to make himself. She can't "make him". If it's a question of changing religion, many people do, not always successfully.

And, sorry to join the debate but the OM in my case was a devout Christian who kept a Bible in his desk. I asked him once how he reconciled the sin he was committing with his faith and he said "there are worse sins - like lying."

I'm sorry, but the hypocrisy left me stunned.

Yes, it is stunning. And as I said above...ther is a good chance he wasnt/isnt really a Christian. 1st John 3:6 says it all:


The Bible says that the way to Heaven is a very small road. many are on the large road and think they are heading to Heaven. When in fact, they are not. God has said that few will follow the small road.

Many so-called Christians today are really not Christians at all.

In His arms.

MM, he would definitely have called himself Christian. I don't know the true facts of his faith (nor is it any concern of mine, nor do I care) When we were teenagers he and I both committed ourselves. It was the reason we didn't have SF when we were teenagers.

Anyway, his spiritual path is not something I even want to discuss. This thread just reminded me of what he'd said.

You do NOT need a religion to have a firm grasp on the difference between right and wrong. That is what a conscience is for - and in terms of moral development, doing the right thing because an authority figure (such as God) tells you to is well below doing the right thing because you know it is right.

I can not understand how someone could ask their fiance to "convert" to a religion significantly different from their own beliefs - you can't just change what you believe because you want to, and why on earth would you want your spouse to pretend to believe something he or she does not?

I would not trust someone who changed their religious beliefs significantly as a mature adult, such as from agnostic to born again Christian, or vice versa.

I once read a story in "Family Life," an Amish publication, about two farmers, an Amishman and a non-Amish farmer who never attended church. The Amishman promised to sell his land to someone and then reneged when a better deal came along, while the other guy was honest and trustworthy. The question was raised as to who was the better person. I find the Amish view that you are only as good as your actions very sensible.

I was an adult before I realized that many, probably most, people end up the same religion as their parents - my immediate relatives have belonged to almost every mainstream Protestant church, as well as Catholic and Unitarian churches, and I am an atheist. The "worldview" that I grew up with, and how we raised our kids, is that everyone should make their own decision about what, if any, religion to choose. My view is that trying to impose your religion on someone else is both immoral and ineffective.It is fine to debate religion if both parties enjoy it, but it is not likely either one will change his or her mind.

Thanks Jen. I do understand. nd I am sure that he would call himself a christian. But you are only really a Christian if Jesus knows you personally. And if Jesus knows him personally, then he wouldnt be doing what he has been doing...and continuing to ignore God and making assinine statements like "well, there are worse sins."

Anyway, didnt want to rehash that. Thanks for clarifying, Jen.

In His arms.

Not a problem, MM.

As always, an interesting MB debate. Funny really, we all know each other's stances but we do keep bringing it up over and over again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I guess that's what being friends is all about.

How do I KNOW it is right? How do I know that? Because I was born with this code of right and wrong in me? if so, who put that code there? If not, then I msut have gotten right and wrong taught to me by my parents.

Again, if we can say what right and wrong is, then we can change it. We used to say it was okay to own slaves. Now, we know that isnt right. But what was moral them is immoral now, according to man. God has a different standard...and it NEVER changes.

Ever watch an infant screaming because it is hungry? Ever watch a two year old who had his toy taken away by another kid? With the feelings inside him, and an adult body, he would be capable of murder. How does that child learn that it isnt the right thing to do when he goes and punches out the kid that took his toy? He is taught that. What if he is taught that punching a thief is the right thing to do. Who is right? Who decides?


Agreed.


Agreed.


Agreed. A relationship with Christ is a personal decision. No one can force that on anyone. That is why Christians are advised that it is best to just start off with dating only Christians.

In His arms.

Yep. Thats why 2Long and I have been old friends on this board for years. we still dont agree on many things...but we are friends nonetheless!

In His arms.

Now that is scary. I can not imagine anything more immoral than not differentiating between a raping mass murderer and someone who devotes his life to helping others. If there is a god, and that is the kind of being he is, I would much rather end up hanging out in h!ll with the likes of WAT and GBH.

One's code of right and wrong is partly innate and partly learned - there is a selective advantage to operating under a moral code, whether innate or learned, in a social species such as humans.

Slavery is not, unfortunately, universally viewed as wrong today - witness the many children in some parts of the world who are sold into prostitution. Slavery existed on a large scale in the United States because it was economically beneficial to a significant segment of the population.

And it should have left you stunned. Whether or not he truly is a Christian, I will leave to God to determine. However, since he PROFESSES to be a Christian, then Matthew 18:15-20 would prevail. His actions are a WILLFUL choice to sin, and no excuse of "degree" of badness makes his choice "okay." He is/was willfully sinning against God. Unrepentance of that sin would be indicative of one who is NOT a true Christian, because the indwelling Holy Spirit WILL convict a Christian of their sin. They can "Run" for a while, but they cannot hide from God because He goes with them everywhere.

Sin, in and of itself, IS blinding to believers and unbelievers alike. It is so bad that we know that even in the last days it will be so bad that, were it possible, even the elect would be deceived. Around here, we call that blindness to the truth "the Fog."

Enigma - This raises serious questions with me. IF she is as devout a Christian as she seems to be claiming, was her previous husband also a Christian? Was he an unbeliever who wanted to leave her? "Growing apart" is NOT a valid reason for Christians to divorce, so it would appear that she is in "danger" of committing adultery if she remarries, as would he in marrying her. Remember, we are NOT talking about secular "standards" for marriage here, we are talking God's standards that Christians are "supposed to" follow.

Regardless, I would strongly caution your friend to "go slow" at this time. Much more needs to be known before getting involved in a marriage. Certainly if he should decide that Jesus IS the promised Messiah and decides to accept Christ as his personal Lord and Savior that would be terrific. But even if he did, I would STILL urge caution because there is too much not known about her and her previous marriage yet.

In addition, the "age gap," while not HUGE, is still large. (He was 16 when she got married the first time around and she was, what, 24ish?) Now he's contemplating becoming an "instant Dad" to a 9 year old? There are a whole lot of "red flags" that really need answers.

new_beginningII - Actually Christ is about both love AND division. I'll quote the relevant Scripture passages if you'd like, but for now consider this, Christ told us that he came to divide those who would accept Him from those who would not.

In the current case, Yes, it is "Christ-like" to "confront" an unbeliever who is attacking and misrepresenting the truth of Scripture just as Jesus confronted the folks in the temple and the Pharisees bent on misinterpreting Scripture for their own benefit. It may not be comfortable, and it may not be "best" tact that could be taken, but I, for one, am also human and probably more like Peter and ready to grap a sword and lop off an ear or two of those who choose to engage in conflict for their own purposes in attacking Christ. So yes, I take offense at blasphemy and twisting of Scripture, and am not willing to "go quietly into the night" without SAYING they are wrong and misleading.

But I do understand how uncomfortable it may make some readers. Just remember that at least in this case, it was someone else who decided to start a war for their own purposes.....so perhaps the admonition would be better served if directed at the instigator of the argument.

Now, to clarify something you said. I do NOT speak for "the Christians." I speak as ONE Christian who believes in the veracity of Jesus' statement, "If you love me, obey God." I use, and hold, Scripture as the authoritative Word of God and human "opinion" should be weighed to determine if it is in agreement with God's revelation, or in opposition to it.

Furthermore, I am NOT trying to "reach" unbelievers. I WILL discuss beliefs with unbelievers if that is what they want, but most "Westerners" already know about Christ and have made their choices.

God bless.

edit to add (Sorry guys. I only read the 1st few posts. Didn't see all the excitement in the next few pages!!!)

I know lots of people who have embraced, educated, learned and been iniated in to different sects based on their spouses/significant others religious choice..
But did they give up something of their own religion to embrace this new religion?
Or did they simply say, "I'm Jewish/Christian (insert your favorite religion here)" previously with no meaning, understanding or practicing of that religion?

I suggest if you actually participate in a particular religion and you convert for your spouse/significant other, the marriage/relationship will not last (for tha majority of these relationships).

Nellie, it is scary. That is why we are so adament to get the word out there, so that those that will choose, can do so before it is too late.

God does differentiate between sins. But what I was stating is that the ultimate penalty for rape is the same as for stealing a small piece of candy from a store. That penalty is death. Any sin, even if it is one sin, no matter how small, has the penalty of death.

Why is that? why would a loving God group all sins with the same penalty? Well, it really doesnt have anything to do with the sin necessarily. What it has to do is with our state of being. We were all born sinners. Even if we only sinned once in our entire lifetime, that sin would be enough to keep us from the presence of God. We could never come near Him, because He is absolutely holy and sinless.

If we were to walk into the presence of God, we would be instantly destroyed because sin cannot stand in the same place as sinlessness. It is not possible.

This has been the problem of man since the fall by Adam. How can I get close to God? Well, on our own, it is impossible. Again, we are all sinners. No matter how many or how severe, we are still classified sinners. And all sin must be paid for by death. So, if we are going to pay on our own, then once we pay...we would cease to exist because we are dead.

What God did was send a sinless man, the only sinless man to ever walk the Earth. He sent Jesus for one purpose...to take our place. He died on that Cross because of what I did, and what you did. If there was only one sinner and it had only been stealing a piece of candy, He would still have come and died. That is what love does.

An unloving God would have left us as we are. He would have said "You got yourself in this mess, you get yourself out of it." And knowing that we do not have the ability to get ourselves out of it. That would not be loving and I too would not want any part of a god like that.

But this God, the God...made a way for us to get out of our predicament. And the way we get out has nothing to do with what we do or what we have done. It all has to do what His Son did.

Many people dont know this...but there are things that God cannot do. I know, I know...an all-powerful God that cant do something? sounds weird, huh? But, due to His nature, He cant sin. He cant be unloving. He also cannot be unjust. He has to punish sin, otherwise He would be unholy. He would cease to exist being the God He is.

So, the question remains if any of us want to pay for our sins, or are we willing to let Christ pay for them? You say you would rather be in He!! than deal with God like this. Nellie, you dont know what you are talking about. If you are saying that, then you have no idea what He!! is like.

Too often, we want to give us what we deserve. Because we act good somedays, we want to be rewarded. especially more than the rapist or the murderer. "Gee Lord, I'm not as bad as that guy." That is where we would end up.

Instead of comparing us to each other for our righteousness, God compares us to His Son. So, with that standard, how can we ask God to give us what we deserve? Because our sin has made us the opposite of who Christ is. That is why I NEVER ask God for what I deserve. Because I deserve death and He!!. I have earned it.

I suspect that may people that do not accept what Jesus did, do so because they want to decide what is right. They want to decide for God what the best way is for people to enter Heaven. They want God to ignore sin, to be unjust...to change His nature. But or course, He will never change Himself. He is the same always.

so, I pray that you see that Nellie. That a loving God made a way for all of us, because all of us...no matter how bad...have fallen short.

A final analogy to explain this. There were three prison inmtes that had broken out of their island prison. Ten miles way was the mainland. As they approached the shoree, they realized they had a long swim ahead. The first guy, who had never swam in his life...jumped in the water and paddled for a minute or so, eventually sinking and drowning. The second guy, an average swimmer and the third guy (who had swam in the Olympics), looked at each other and the Olympic swimmer said "Well, I'm a better swimmer than that guy." And with that, they both jumped in. For the first mile or two, they hung together. But eventually, the average swimmer succumbed to the bone-chilling water ad drowned. By this time, the Olympic swimmer was humming along. He eventually made it 18 miles...within sight of the shore...before he too drowned.

None of them were capable of making the swim, in this example. In this example, no one is capable of making that swim...except Jesus. No matter how hard we try, we will all drown...we will all die. That is unless there is someone that can make it that will help us across.

This is the state that we all find ourselves in when we are born. Which again, takes us down to a choice...THE choice. And that is "Who do you say Jesus is?"

In His arms.