Gee, arkie, I didn't know it was supposed to "help" someone. I also didn't know that ALL of these so-called "personal attacks" originated from Christians or were only "personal" when made by Christians (meaning ME, I suppose, or perhaps that another "zealot," Mortarman, also).

"HOW DOES THIS CRAP HELP ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????"

I suppose you will have to ask that bastion of "Christianity" bashing, GBH, that question, since she began it all "in the name of Christianity."

c'mon, ark, I did NOT seek out GBH to initiate a verbal war simply because I don't like her or because I disagree with HER beliefs. SHE chose a direct AND personal attack on both me and Christianity. But NOW you have the audacity to say that it's "all in the name of Christianity???"

I know, I know, you probably think I should just "turn the other cheek" and let her plant her jackboot on that side too without standing up for what is right. That concept of "appeasement" was proven both wrong, and deadly to others, around 1939. The cost of which vastly outweighed many things, like the loss of soldiers in IRAQ who are doing exactly the same thing, confronting that which is both wrong and deadly if NOT confronted. People want to talk about "zealots," but they want to restrict the application of that term to Christians who have the audacity to stand upon the Word of God. If there is a "zealot" in the crowd, I'd nominate her highness, GBH, who is the sole arbiter of what she likes and dislikes and feels the zealous urge to attack anyone who she disagrees with AND believes she should be immune from criticism herself.

It's a nice "fog world" that she lives in, but I don't accept her "worldview" or her attempt to "shut me up" and to "ridicule" the God who gave himself for us in sacrifice so that some of us might be able to be saved from the curse of Adam.

Enigma began this thread with a specific question related to Christianity and the "motives" of the woman in question. But the mere mention of Christianity was enough to get GBH dashing in to begin bashing on me and Christianity and hijacking the thread that Enigma began, for her own purpose of silencing Christian discussion.

Let her, or anyone for that matter, stage such an attack upon ANY other faith, and everyone would scream bloody murder. But NOT when Christ is the target. Christ is "fair game." Well, not to me.....and that is how I see it. She has the RIGHT to say anything she wants to. I have the equal right to say anything I want to, especially in response to his direct attack. Or are we to give up our "free speech" rights next?

One last time, ark. I did NOT seek her out or invade one of her threads to ATTACK her. She came looking for the fight as any bully would. NOW there is surprise and consternation that someone would have the temerity to respond just as "forcefully?"

ark, GBH is a mental midget who takes a bunch of "half truths" and "misunderstandings" about the Scripture and tries to twist them into JUSTIFICATION for her less than stellar behavior. Her fog is just as great as any WS in the throes of an affair. And yet her WORLDVIEW, of "let society determine morals" is accepted as Gospel by many, but not by me or some other committed Christians.

Heaven help the poor fool who decides to "stand for God."

"I am still struggling with the personal attacks...all in the name of Secular Humanism and Christian hating."

ark, Do you really think such a sweeping statement like that should apply to ALL who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? Or have you perhaps "misspoken?"

FH - I'll accept your apology, even though I didn't ask for one. I also acknowledge that yours was not by a long shot the first ponder ever regarding my intelligence. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My son is now 17 and is WAY smarter than I am. But Mark Twain assures me that by the time he's 24, he'll be amazed at how much his old man has learned in 7 seven years.

MM - what exactly is a "moral athiest"?

Is that the term you used, above? Is it similar to a "moral Christian", or a "moral Jew", or a "moral Muslim", or a "moral Wicken", or a "moral Congressman"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> My point, again: Self appointed labels nor ascribed labels do not a moral person make.

Since we seem to agree now that a good and moral person can be of any faith or non-faith, e.g., claiming to be "Christian" is no guarantee; exactly how can one distinguish a real Christian from a fake one? The same as observing anyone else? - by their actions and not their claimed beliefs?

Also, MM, your response to Nellie (I think) regarding the topic that anyone can know right from wrong:

You're getting close, in my world view.

No, we weren't born with the right vs wrong "code" in us. We WERE born with cognitive ability (well, most of us were <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) and consciousness of self and an imagination. In my view - which I know you don't agree with - these abilities were acquired through evolution. No one put them there.

With our cognitive ability, we very early on learned the intuitive Golden Rule. It's unavoidable for beings with a sense of self and a conscience. Human societies could not have developed without it. Call it societal Darwinism. Natural selection (recognition) of our good behaviors and their outcomes resulted in the betterment of society.

Because we also have an imagination, we individually ponder and "experiment" with alternatives to societal norms. Based on how much more we learn or are taught as individuals, we can either recognize the outcome of these experiments as good or bad, go(o)d or (D)evil, right or wrong, - or not be able to distinguish them at all and/or consciously choose to be self centered. The is the price we pay for having the ability for self determination. It's ironic to me, that the same imagination that permits "bad" people to exist is the same imagination that created the world's religions. We wanted answers to questions we couldn't answer and, for some, retribution to "bad" people from some "authority."

So yes, I know I got a large portion of my own "right and wrong" guage from my parents. I bet most people do. I also recently got a brand new, titanium cased hypocrisy meter. Dern thing goes through batteries REAL fast. Especially on Sunday mornings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And yes, we can change what is right and wrong. Your slavery example is a case in point. I can add the Crusades and many other historical events undertaken in the name of numerous gods. And we don't always get it right and sometimes have to re-change again. Natural selection of societal norms seems to even things out over time - sometimes it takes a LONG time, just like in the origin of species. Ultimately, I predict, US society will cease capital punishment because it's the right thing to do - despite the objections of many Christians. Same thing with homosexuality. We'll finally conclude - despite the objections of Christians AND homosexuals themselves - that it's an involuntary biological outcome. It isn't learned or chosen, so how can it be a sin?

I'll even buy that your God's standard never changes, but so what? By observing the results, that standard is no better than the intuitive Golden Rule.

I propose we end this discussion because we will not agree on some points. This does not mean we are good or bad as individuals because we disagree. It just means we have differing views on why or how we got to be good or bad and what will happen to us in the future. I, for one, am content not having all the answers and do not expect to live forever is heaven or heck - these are, in my view, more results of our imagination attempting to provide comfort for the inevitability of biological death.

WAT

One more time, FH, and we'll see if you will ever get it.

First, I use the term zealot quite often in my life and line of work. I do not "restrict the application of that term to Christians..." You know nothing about me.

What I objected to ... and what I still object to ... was your original blanket statement claiming that the "secular position" says it's okay to commit adultry (and other sins). I can assure you that you don't have to be Christian to believe that adultry is wrong. THAT was my point, but you can't seem to get it because you are blinded by your sanctimonious Christian position.

As for my sitch and what brought me here, and your references to the "fog world" that WS like me live in and my status as a "mental midget," let me say this. If you knew anything... ANYTHING... about my sitch, you would know that I am one of the most remoreseful FWSs here (I'm sure you don't believe F belongs there but it does). Look at my posts on the Recovery board if you don't believe me. You might find them quite enlightening in more ways than one. I have beaten myself up over the past 15 months more than you will ever know, I have learned a lot about myself and how to be a better person, and I continue to be incredibly grateful to have a loving and forgiving spouse (yes, you can forgive without being Christian, too).

To see the likes of you continue your personal attacks on me with such phrases as "mental midget" and "fog world," and think you and other Christians, even those who kill little four-year-old boys, are entitled to get away with murder (in some cases) because you're best buds with Jesus... well, it makes me sick to my stomach.

I never attacked you personally, FH, I attacked the prejudicial statements that you made about non-Christians as being overly general and false. You and MM were the ones who started the personal attacks.

You don't know me, you don't know my sitch, and your posts demonstrate that loud and clear. I'm sure you're about as apt to check my old posts in Recovery as I am to re-read MM's "Roles of husbands and wives" link (I honestly tried once, just couldn't get through it).

Suffice it to say that you know nothing about me, your assessment of me as a "mental midget," in a "fog world" is way off-base and uncalled for. The fog cleared for me nearly a year ago, FH, and as the lyrics of an old 70s song, "I can see clearly now."

GBH, you still read nothing in either my posts or FH's. He did NOT say that the secular position is that adultery is okay. He did not say that. He did not say that. he did not say that. (I am repeating this over and over so that MAYBE you will see what he was trying to say...NOT what you want to believe he said. He was instead saying that if the secular position is that MAN makes up the rules, then man COULD one day decide to change the rules. And adultery could be labeled okay. Please, GBH. Get the point and move on. Arguing something that wasnt said or meant is not helping your argument, and instead shows you to have so closed your mind that you arent willing to even see the facts at hand.


No question on any of this!


Again, no one gets away with sin. Sorry about that. And again, that woman may or may not be a Christian. I will answer a question by WAT concerning this in my next post...how do you tell who is a true Christian? You see, Jesus isnt His followers. It is a very sad point that many believers do walk around thinking they have a get-out-of-he!!-free-card. And that they can do anything they want. but as I posted earlier, that is not Scriptural. Anyone that thinks that, is not a believer. 1st John 3 states this specifically. Anyone can SAY they are a Christian...it doesnt make them one. So, as I have said quite a few times here GBH...Christians are entitled to NOTHING! We deserve the same fate as non-Christians. The difference is that a true believer is changed by what Jesus did, not by anything I did right or wrong. You know, it has been reported that Jeffrey Dahmer became a believer while in prison. I dont knwo if that is true or not. But if true, then he sits today in Heaven with Jesus. Even though he murdered and ate people before he was saved. As I said in other posts...Jesus saves us from ALL of our sins, no matter how bad or heinous.

GBH...you and I are NO DIFFERENT than Jeffrey Dahmer. Not when it comes to where we sit with God with our sins. We live under a death sentence...one which we have had since birth. One that our great grandfather Adam bestowed upon us. The difference between you and I though, is that I have let someone that could pay for my sins do so. And because He did pay for them, they are gone. All of them. The ones I have done...and the ones I have yet to commit. Now listen here, as FH said this previously and it is true...the key here isnt that Christians sin. It is that we dont have to sin! Unbelievers sin because it is human nature. But a believer has Christ inside of him/her. if we are relying on Christ, then we will nto sin. Now sometimes, I dont listen to Him...and I get in trouble. it might be something minor. or it might even be a major sin. The key is that I come back to Christ, I pray for His strength in helping me to do better...I get off my knees and I move forward a better man.

Sure, even unbelievers can learn from mistakes and do better. As I said, we are all still human and have those capacities. But the believer has one thing the unbeliever does not...a direct relation with God. And as such, then we know what will happen when this life ends.

Too many people are overly concerned about this life and have little to know concern for the next. Many believe that once we are saved, things should get better. That we shouldnt be attacked, or struggle, or commit adultery, or whatever. That is NOT the case. Jesus promised peace, not happiness. He promised to be with us in this world, not take us out of it. The hope we have is not here...it is in Heaven. This is just a temporary place we all are in before we go to where we will spend eternity. In the grand scheme of things, this is just a blip in my life.

GBH, you can try to paste Jesus with the sins of His people but it will not help you. Christians are not perfect. Christ is perfect. Your argument is not with me, nor FH, nor that woman who murdered her son (if she is indeed a Christian)...it is with Jesus Himself.

As I have said over and over, there is only ONE big question on life. All of the rest are little minor questions. That question is "Who is Jesus?" And you MUST answer the question, GBH! And one day, as I know we all will, you will stand before Him. I know Him...personally. And I know His promises. Unbelievers will stand before Him and they will kneel before Him...but it will be too late. Christians that werent really Christians will kneel before Him and He will say "I never knew you."

The believer though, will gratefully kneel before Jesus and thank Him. And THAT person will be welcomed into Jesus' arms and into eternity.


I personally attacked you? I did? I called you names? I thought I was having a discussion with you. I will leave it to the other posters on here to determine if I EVER have attacked you. or anyone else on this site for that matter. I will not speak for FH on that, because he can stand for himself. But nowhere have I ever attacked YOU. I have disagreed with you...but that is not an attack! Just as your disagreements are not perceived by me as an attack.

You are using an age old argument technique that is employed by the liberal left in the US these days. Claim something, even if not true, repeat it often enough, and someone might believe you. By saying that I attacked you, which I have clearly NOT done so, you are trying to make a falsehood true. I doubt that anyone on here that knows me and that has read my posts would ever agree with you on this, GBH!! So, as I stated before, I do think an apology is in order to me from you. Will I get one? It doesnt matter to me really.


And why? Why couldnt you get thru it? I have read many things in my life that I thought that I would not agree with. I have read the Koran. So what? You see, the Koran doesnt threaten the Bible...it actually helps to show that the Bible is the Word of God. I read the Koran and studied it some because I wanted to know more about what this religion was about and why so many followed it, instead of following God. So, I read. And I learned a lot. I was able to take what I learned and find out what God says in the Bible about it, so that now I speak with people of the Islamic faith and I can speak intelligently on why I disagree with their religion. I dont have to make ascertains that are wrong with their faith, because I know what their faith is. Just as if you had read that link and tried to learn something from it, you would understand the true meaning of the roles of the husband and wife as outlined in the Bible. In short, I dont want to be ignorant and walk around trying to speak about something I know little about.


I have no idea your situation in your marriage. And if repaired, I am very happy for both you and your wife. And I wish both of you the best.

I do know, since I do know Jesus personally, that there is a fog over unbelievers that cannot see the whole truth. Sin is very blinding. It blinds me from time to time. The believer, though, has someone that can continue to clear the fog and show us the truth. The unbeliever has no one and no ability to clear that fog away. No man can clear it. Except Jesus.

I hope that someday soon, GBH, you can find away to sit down and discuss this without becoming angry. Without using words that just inflame. Again, I will not speak to what others have written, but I have treated you with respect. I demand the same.

You and I can have discusions about this in an adult manner from now on. But only if you treat me with respect. As I have treated you. If not, then you and I are done posting in response to each other. I dont want you to misinterpret what I say again into a personal attack on you.

In His arms.

WAT,

We do agree on much. So, I will stay away from where we agree.

First off, I do not agree that there is some intuitive Golden Rule that just is. That rule was placed there by someone.

I also dont believe that our good has been vetted from the bad thru natural selection. We are falling pray to the same sins that we fell to in the beginning. Murder, adultery, theft, rape, etc. All exist. In some ways, all are far worse. satan has been tripping us up the same way since the beginning. He doesnt do anything new. He doesnt need to. We fall for the same dumb things our grandparents and great grandparents did.


I think FH may better be able to answer this one with Scripture...but let me give a short overview. In short, a believer is known by his/her fruit. Now does that mean just that I might do something nice for someone else? No, that is just a part of it.

Let me use an analogy that might work here. Let's say I am in Iraq as an American soldier. One day, a firefight breaks out in a town, and I run across the town square to save some children and pull them out of the line of fire. At the same time, an Iraqi citizen runs with me, and helps me pull those children out of the line of fire. Were both of our actions equally moral? Sure. Heroic? Definitely. They were the same.

But what is the difference between me and that Iraqi citizen? Well ,there are many. but first and foremost, I am doing what I did because it is my duty. I represent the United States. I do these things because I have been trained and ordered to by the people of the United States. That Iraqi citizen did it entirely on his own.

Now, you might ask...what does that matter? If that act is equally as moral and equally heroic, then what does it really matter whether I did it or that Iraqi did it?

The difference is that I get to jump on the plane and go back to America. I belong to the United States. I get to go home. That Iraqi doesnt belong on that plane.

While my analogy is simplistic, it works for what I am trying to say. When I do something moral or something right, I dont do it because of myself. I do it because it is my duty, because it pleases my boss...Jesus. Just as that soldier had to do that because it was his duty, a believer must do the right thing because it is our duty to the Lord who saved us.

Now, my analogy could have been different. I could have used something where I definitely would not want to do. It isnt my plan. It isnt what I want. It isnt in my best interest. But as a soldier, I really have no choice but to obey that order and do it.

As a Christian, the difference is huge and is played out over their lives. It isnt one specific act that is telling. It is when that believer follows Christ, even when you know that the believer didnt want to do that. THAT is a true believer! That is a true follower of Christ.

I know you can argue that others have done good things even when they didnt want to. But I would have to say that isnt true. They did it for their master (their superiors, their boss, whatever), sure. But they did it in their own self-interest.

A believer does it purely because Christ wants it done. As a believer, my salvation does not depend on whether I do that thing or not. I dont have to do it because if I dont, I might lose my salvation. I do it entirely because the Lord saved my life, and all I can say is thank you...and your will be done.

Hope that helps...and maybe some others can expand upon this.

In His arms.

Yes he did. Yes he did. Yes he did. I have cut and pasted it many times. It is on his initial post on page 1 of this thread.


You are correct in that you never attacked me. I erred in lumping you with FH on that. Please accept my apologies. However, FH called me a "mental midget" and implied that I am still in "fog land." Nothing could be further from the truth.


That is true. Neither you nor FH know the least bit about my marriage sitch. If you did, you would know that I don't have a wife. I have a husband. We are doing well know, and I appreciate your good wishes.

Sorry GBH for lumping you in with us men!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I havent read your threads, so I dont really know you nor your sitch. That is one of the reasons I have never commented on you personally.

In His arms.

Fh....

I called gbh out the second I thought his post crossed the line....so it has certainly been a disgusting display by both of you in my 'OPINION'


Let him, or anyone for that matter, stage such an attack upon ANY other faith, and everyone would scream bloody murder. But NOT when Christ is the target. Christ is "fair game." Well, not to me.....and that is how I see it. He has the RIGHT to say anything he wants to. I have the equal right to say anything I want to, especially in response to his direct attack. Or are we to give up our "free speech" rights next?

I don't believe this is a forum of free speach..I believe that every person here is a GUEST of the Harleys and if you want to have free speech in which name calling is part of your board......feel free to start your own forum...but as a guest you should follow the rules of the hosts.....

and no matter yours or anyone elses 'debate' the rule of this board clearly state that personal name calling is to be avoided....

and each time you take the time to type out a name calling little title.......no matter your point..it is so lost on me....

I never called anyone a zealot..
I have never met a zealot....
I don't know if you or anyone else is a zealot...this is cyber space....

I did and do think that gbh's line about not argueing or whatever it was with zealots is dead on...and should probably replace the word zealots with WS...as far as I am concerned.....

this whole post has turned in to one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen here....

to believe the WE know another persons heart and sit in judgement of their own Chrisitianity is beyond my simple minded comprehension....

I don't agree with most things on this post...
But so what....

it is all just others opinions ....

But I do know that marriagebuilders is not here for me to debate all my thoughts and whims...

I have plenty of disagreements with many views posted on this topic...

but in the end FH so what and what's the point???

this is NOT a debate forum..it is a marriage building forum...and according to this post public opinion is we should now cast aspersions even before marriage....as if we know a persons point of true conversion... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

don't get that
don't buy it either thank heavens...

I don't get and don't agree with your extreme examples...
thorughout a lot of your posts here...on this topic
but so what??

He came looking for the fight as any bully would. NOW there is surprise and consternation that someone would have the temerity to respond just as "forcefully?"

even if he did..so what?

yep you can respond forcefully over and over and over again.......
if you choose to,..
which you do......
even in this post...can't resist calling him a mental midget...
so at some point the need to defend has been left behind..and the need to wound....is strong....and it is a direct refection on you...

I don't know him
I don't know you...
I barely understand half the crap on this post...cause it is all pretty much layed out in extremes...
there is a lot of scripture
a lot of judgement
very little compassion
very little faith or prayer that the individual may just be ready to walk with God...but because a women who loves him may be leading him down that path....

lets all villify them both..perhaps a little burning is in good taste as well..

I wouldnt' care if a snail was leading him on a spiritual journey..it's a good thing

how about somebody pray for this couple....
hmmmmmm
there's a thought...

with the irony that if you started a post asking people how they came to be Christians or of any other sect...I'd bet a ton of money that many would site mentors and people they loved and admired that brought them along...or started them along...

but not in this post...in this post we hang them all stating the can't be a REAL CHRISTIAN...or never WERE a REAL CHRISTIAN....

I find it sad ...
I find this whole post sad sad sad..
but I can do it..
because
it's cyber space
it's not MY forum created for the sole purpose of MY personal debate


and in a marriage building forum...as guests where we ascribe to the priniciples of no LBS...should we not as guests set the example in our own silly silly little posts....about this or that....

otherwise what is the point...

ARK

Also GBH, I know what you have posted and copied on page 1. But I also know that you have misinterpreted what he was saying or trying to say. He has come back on and added more for clarification. But you are still sticking with the meaning you assigned to it. Why not take the clarification as what it is and discuss what FH is trying to say...and what I am trying to say...instead of arguing for something neither of us have said or intended?

In His arms.

Thank you ark^^ for saying what I was thinking... and with so much grace.

I'd also like to say that I have talked to both WAT and Nellie many, many, many times over the years, and while they certainly don't need my 'attaboy/girl' they are two of the MOST MORAL people I have ever met. Additionally, both have never wavered and have never been cruel about anyone ever. Both are strong-willed and know what they believe. I respect them both very much, though I don't always agree with them, or them with me. That's the way it is with adults with differing opinions. We can disagree RESPECTFULLY without resorting to name-calling like "mental midget".

Again, FH and Mortarman, as I said to you earlier in this thread, I don't doubt your sincerity... and FH, I thank you for your response to my earlier post. I would copy/paste and discuss, but I really would rather not argue with you about our differences in belief and thoughts regarding the things of God.

I agree with ark^^... why don't we pray for this couple?

As for me, I'm praying that this site doesn't debate about something so personal and potentially harming as our religion, or lack thereof, again. It never ceases to get ugly and there is no good to come from it.

NB,

While I can agree with most of your post, I disagree that the discussion of religion is a bad thing. On this board we have had some very incredible discussions of religion, especially when it applied to marriage. So to say that it has been bad is not true.

Sure, some cannot handle the discussion of religion without taking it personally. I am not one of them. The only thing I take personally is a punch in the mouth! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But just because some individuals in a discussion cannot handle themselves does not mean the discussion isnt good or relevent. I believe WAT, Ark and others have made some great contributions to these types of threads...even when we have disagreed. I have learned a lot from them (and others), as I hope some have learned from what I have brought to the table.

I would again caution those that have problem with the discussion of religion that it might be good for them to stay away from threads that have to do with religion. No one is forcing them there. And the people on there WANT to talk about that subject.

Oh, and praying for this couple is a GREAT idea!

In His arms.

Enigma,

Well, at the risk of starting a Holy war. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I would like to take a stab at answering your question, that is IF you are still reading this.

You stated and asked
So before I dare tred into the world of religion, let's look at this from a secular point of view: ie from the point of view of MB.

First is her religion a major part of her life and yes her social life?

If it is the concept of shared recreation being necessary for a healthy marriage is in jeapordy here, isn't.

Let's look at the consequences of him making a "sacrifice" for the marriage based on her demand/expectation. It violates the concept of POJA and perhaps radical honesty if he tells her will "convert" (I will address this term in a moment). The violation of POJA and radical honesty right off of the top will lead to resentment and too quote an old poster here (WhoDat)
In short as the circumstances are stated, this does NOT bode well for the marriage because one is starting off with some big marriage issues as articulated on this site.

Ok, some thoughts on should he "convert" to Christianity. First to be technical he is not "converting" because he does not have another religion or belief as presented to us. What he would be doing is a two step thing. He would be accepting that religion is important to his life, AND he would be accepting Christianity specifically as his religion of choice.

I will not belabor what that means, as much has been discussed.

What I would be asking this young man and this lady are what are their goals? Why is it important to her that he be a Christian? What are her purposes in this demand? Is she doing it to suit herself, her church, her friends, her family OR because she feels HE will benefit from it? This seems very crucial to me. If it is most of the former reasons, I think he has problems coming. If it is for your friend she needs to be able to articulate these reasons.

Now this brings me to the final thought. No matter what SHE wants, what does your friend think? I am reminded of a bumper sticker I have seen occasionally What reminds me of this is that religion is the foundation of most peoples moral compass. It is philosophical underpinning of our decision making. At 29 your friend has probably not been confronted with many of life's situations that make one fall back for the support religion often provides: life (birth of children), death, killing, addictions, health, etc. This means that not being raised in a religion, he sees little use for it...yet.

He may well think, "I have seen people and churches and they sin, they cheat, they lie, they steal, they..." He would be right and it is for that reason people go to church, to be guided, reminded, and encouraged to lead a better life and to have faith in that they cannot see, smell, or touch.

I think he needs to find religion for his own purposes. I think the woman he is seeing would need to make sure he sees the benefits of developing a deep faith that is NOT based on her demand that he be a Christian. One of the most obvious is that he could share in what brings her great joy in her life.

I personally think that religion is something everyone should be exposed to, but not demanded. It requires belief and that should be belief based on what is inside of us. I realize that some segments of the Christian faith would not agree with me, any more than some segments of other religions would not agree. I will say that THE strongest Christians, Jews, Muslims I have ever met, actually "converted" to this faith, thus they did it of free will.

So have I danced around your question well enough? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your friends girl friend is well within her rights to expect her H to be a Christian. Your friend is well within his rights to decline the marriage. Your friend would be foolish in my opinion to "convert" in name only especially if religion is a major portion of her life.

Just my thoughts.

JL

Hi JL - I'll goback to the original question as well, and offer the flip side of your scenario.

Enigma - seems to me that it would be a WHOLE lot easier for her to "convert" to being secular. Only one item from the menu to choose from and a LOT easier to swallow it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Enigma,

There you go. WAT just capsulized it. Would she think it "fair" if he demanded that she cease her activities in a church?

He has to make the call. If she intends to have children and wants them reared in a Christian faith, then she is right to expect, yes even demand that her H be a Christian. But that right does not include her right to DEMAND that your friend change, just that whoever she marries be a Christian.

So without further information there is little we can offer. Your friend has personal decisions to make.

God Bless,

JL

Good points JL.

In His arms.

NB,

Thank you for your words of support. I always make a point of reading your posts, because they unfailingly thoughtful, even when I disagree.

Mortarman,

I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. I am not in the least worried that I would go to h!ll in spite of devoting my entire life to the betterment of human kind (not that I have of course). I am not even worried that I would go to h!ll if I were to devote the rest of my life to crime, since I do not believe that such a place exists. It is scary to me that people actually believe that nothing really matters except whether you belong to the "right" religion. It is scary to me that anyone could worship a god such as you described - no loving god would treat a good person thusly. The god you described sounds tyrannical and cruel,and I would not want to be in heaven if he ran the place. I am quite certain that when I die, I will be dead, and that will be it - but I'll take my chances that if I turn out to be wrong, the god I meet will be of the kinder, gentler variety, such as that worshiped in many of the mainstream protestant churches - or in a variety of other religions.

Yo Nellie - if there's a there, there - I'll meet you there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm pretty confident that IF there really is the God MM describes, and one of two places to go to after death, He/She/It won't give a hoot what I believed or who I knelt to or didn't. Nope. Such a God will give out passes as He/She/It chooses and we haven't a clue what the test will be. Thinking otherwise may be the height of human conceit. After all, this is the same God who in just the last year or so oversaw the Indian Ocean tsunami, Afghan earthquake, U.S. hurricanes, White Sox winning the series, etc., etc., etc. If those events were controlled and intended by the Grand Designer, all bets are off as to what logic will be applied for judgement day.

In the meantime, I'll be the good person I am capable of being - not out of fear, but because it's the objective, logical, civilized thing to do and the way my parents raised me - and the way that seems to work best on this lonely, insignificant, pale blue dot in the outskirts of an ordinary galaxy among billions of others.

WAT
--------------
Content not knowing all the answers.

WAT, ....in deference to ark's sensibilities....nevermind.

Obnoxious and offensive, but understandable from your perspective.

Thanks for your reply JL. I am still reading, but not able to find the time to sit down and type a reply.

I think that you have clarified the matter well - a great talent you have used to help many others.

There isn't anything that I can think to add now to this thread. Thanks

Nellie:

"The god you described sounds tyrannical and cruel,and I would not want to be in heaven if he ran the place."

I once felt this way as well. Now, I think it's rather more like the god often described by - dare I say, zealots? - is narrow in scope and short on real compassion (rather like the cul2res that created him, in fact).

Why assign malice, when simple ignorance of the Bigger Pic2re will do fine? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

And though I'm an atheologist, I really like the lyrics 2 this song by Peter Gabriel...

"Solsbury Hill"

"Climbing up on Solsbury Hill
I could see the city lights
Wind was blowing, time stood still
Eagle flew out of the night
He was something to observe
Came in close, I heard a voice
Standing stretching every nerve
Had to listen had no choice
I did not believe the information
Just had to trust imagination
My heart going boom boom boom
"Son," he said "Grab your things,
I've come to take you home."

To keep in silence I resigned
My friends would think I was a nut
Turning water into wine
Open doors would soon be shut
So I went from day to day
Though my life was in a rut
"Till I thought of what I'd say
Which connection I should cut
I was feeling part of the scenery
I walked right out of the machinery
My heart going boom boom boom
"Hey" he said "Grab your things
I've come to take you home."

When illusion spin her net
I'm never where I want to be
And liberty she pirouette
When I think that I am free
Watched by empty silhouettes
Who close their eyes but still can see
No one taught them etiquette
I will show another me
Today I don't need a replacement
I'll tell them what the smile on my face meant
My heart going boom boom boom
"Hey" I said "You can keep my things,
they've come to take me home."

Why is that, I wonder? (feel free 2 speculate, folks) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long