LOL! Thanks Orchid, your reverse babble always makes me laugh. So far, I have always answered his "I'm doing this and this and this plus THAT" with an "OK" and move on to the point (if there's one to be had).

I swear I was cool though! I wasn't taking it personally. It's just that I'm in Plan B and trying to stay dark, and lately he's been wanting to talk AND slip in personal details when I have told him I will only discuss children and finances, and was hoping to have some insight into what he was thinking. (Bit of a lost cause, I know. As if ANY of us could predict what WSs are thinking at any given time!) And I was wondering whether it was appropriate for me to tell him where S10 is going to be. I mean - it's not like he really gives a damn. He barely had time for the kids when he lived here, and now he's worse.

So... what? Y'all are telling me it sounds as though I was telling WH what to do? He had already said this stuff and I was confirming. In my no nonsense voice. I did say please and thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Give him as little lingo as possible. Make him wonder as much about you and the family as possible. U C, the WS' feel they 'need 2 know' everything the BS is doing. Once they know, u r garbage. So best to keep the suspense and keep them in check.

They just can't help it......if they don't know what u r up 2, they have 2 keep checking up on u. That's where the reverse babble fun begins. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Yep - hence my three-word answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi there everyone,

Just wondering whether any wise soul can translate this behavior for me?

I've just had a little conversation with D18. She told me she is worried over something her dad said yesterday.

D18 and I went away to the city this weekend, and I left S10 with WH. D18 stayed in the city for the week with friends, while I returned home. For some reason, WH rang D18 to find out when I was returning home even though I'd told him it'd be that day. As they're saying goodbye to each other after the convo, D18 says to WH, "I love you!" Then there was a couple of seconds' silence, and he replies with, "Yeah. Whatever. 'Bye."

She was hurt and worried, and asked me what he meant. I told her it meant her father is a child. I told her that his words don't mean anything, absolutely anything, and she is not to take any of them seriously. She doesn't know why he would say such a thing. I told her about the fog, and how he hates to feel judged, and it could be because he can sense that she's judging him, or maybe because she doesn't really want to be with him that much, but it is still nothing to do with her. What a JERK!!!

At any rate, the reasons I didn't suggest to her were a) that maybe it was the fact that she had no idea what I was doing that day so she had no info to give him, and b) that maybe he's going into one of his inexplicable rages again. You know, back in October and up to December, if I stayed dark and lived my life, he'd do this thing, where he rang up for no reason to tell me some inconsequential thing, then he'd ring up again, and again and again and again, getting more and more worked up each time for no good reason until he was just about foaming at the mouth. I'm wondering whether he's at this stage again. Enraged but without me to blow up at, so his daughter has to take it on the chin, instead. In which case, he's STILL behaving like a jerk. She doesn't deserve that. She is a very confident young woman, and it takes a LOT to shake her, but she is still young, and he is still her dad, and doing that kind of thing is still very hurtful.

Anyway, I'd appreciate some opinions as to what might be going through his screwy mind right now.

I think that at least part of it is pushing his children away so he doesn't have to face the damage his selfishness is doing to them.

How can he be loving toward them when he is systematically destroying them, their lives, and their security?

Your daughter does not have to continue to talk to him if she doesn't want to. I mean, I would expect a WS to say that to the BS, but to say it to their kid is just plain low, and she has every right to protect herself from continuing to be hurt like that.

Yep...can't explain it any better than neak.

A Cheating Spouse hearing the words "I love you" from the daughter he is destroying is actually very painful for him. It would actually feel better to him if his daughter spit at him in vitriolic anger rather than say "I love you".

This is the exact reason why many Cheaters get even angrier when a spouse does an about face and does "Plan A" in the face of a betrayal.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well - I didn't even think about this! Thanks, Neak and Lemonman. I really appreciate the added insight, that would never have occurred to me.

It IS low, isn't it? Today, this made me ask myself, "WHY do I love this man, exactly?" And then I had to remind myself that I don't love THIS man.

Hi everyone, been gone for a week, mostly having a good time being an immature and irresponsible excuse for an adult. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just checking in, basically, although a couple of weird things have happened.

The first weird thing was V-day. Although I make it a point not to ask what WH is doing, I found out what he was doing on V-day. S16 (who lives with WH) told me that they were spending it at a work dinner. Boss (WH) and employees had a dinner as a belated Christmas thing! So... Where was the OW? She might have gone to the dinner, for all I know, but that's not quite the intimate romantic V-day thing, is it? Although we celebrated it and enjoyed doing so, V-day was never a huge celebration for us, and we considered it a very lighthearted thing (our anni was more important). But chances are that OW considers it important, or was hoping for something more, and... well! For all I know he's sent her the biggest bunch of flowers in the universe, but I don't know...

The second weird thing happened a couple of days ago. Even though WH knows not to come into the house unless expressly invited in my me, and not to contact me for anything other than kids and finances, he sent a message through one of our kids that there was a bunch of mail at work for me. I didn't go pick it up b/c I was going away for the week, and then he sent an e-mail about it. I read the subject line, and deleted it, without responding. When I arrived home today after a week away, lo and behold, there's the mail in the kitchen. I asked our boarder how the mail had got here. She said, "Your WH brought it. Actually, it was a little weird and gave me a fright. He just let himself into the house, calling out my name. Then when I came over, he gave me the mail, and left."

Now... WHAT? I have no idea what would have prompted him to do this. He knew I wasn't here. He took advantage? He was hoping to have a poke around the house if the boarder wasn't here? What? Now I don't know whether to send him an e-mail re-stating the coming into the house thing, or not saying anything and just getting the locks changed. Hmmm...

It's just weird. Really weird.

I recommend changing the locks. Catch me up on why this was not done.

Him coming in meets ENs..enabling the A....

I don't know why I didn't do it. Just slack, I suppose. And I thought he'd respect my wishes of not coming in unless invited in by me!

Oh dear... I'm an idiot, aren't I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That said, though, he DOESN'T have house keys. It's just that our boarder had left the door unlocked. (We're on acreage and she felt safe enough to do this.) So quite reasonably, she could have left the door unlocked even if they WERE new locks. I told her to lock the doors when she's here on her own, and she said she'll do this.

So, what's the damage, do you think? Have we taken a huge leap backwards?

Hey RT -

I don't think it's a HUGE, HUGE step back but like Mimi said it's not good for him to come in. Ther darker, the better. I didn't learn that until over a month in Plan B. My gosh, I would have been crazy by now if I wouldn't have made certain he couldn't come in!!

Glad to see you back on the boards. I hated to read what your WH said to your daughter. That was awful.

Take Care!!

Kim

Hi River-

Just catching up on your thread.

By the way, your WH tells you of his plans to gauge your reaction.....to see if he can get a rise out of you. I mean you guys have been married for a while, so he can probably tell by your tone of voice how you feel, even if you only say "Okay".....ya know? (Just wanted to comment on that)

I agree that coming into the house fills EN's and that more precaution should be taken so he's not taking so many liberties.

Other than that, I think you're doing fine......it's a darn good thing WS's don't read minds though isn't it?? LOL

God Bless,

-Caren

Thanks Caren and Kim.

But OK, here I am again, and I don't know whether to be ticked off or disturbed or what. He's just turned up again, unannounced, to see D18 and S10. He'd brought them gifts from his trip away. He knocked on the door and I got D18 to answer, and he didn't come in, but he still came. In the Plan B letter, I said: "Please do not come to the house or the property unannounced, and do not enter as you did on December 24 without knocking or being allowed in by me."

So. He's come to the property unannounced. AND this is hot on the heels of entering the house uninvited while the kids and I weren't here! What do I do? Send him an e-mail restating that bit of the letter? Or let it ride? I kinda feel like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't: if I say nothing, it means he gets away with violating the terms of my Plan B, and if I say something, then I'm being forced to contact him and come out of "darkness". Is he pushing me here? What's going on? Someone enlighten me, please, I really need someone who can look at this with fresh eyes.

I don't REALLY want to talk to myself about this...

*bump*

Hi RT,

Here for support and bumping your thread for comments and advice.

quote:---------------------------------------------------
if I say nothing, it means he gets away with violating the terms of my Plan B, and if I say something, then I'm being forced to contact him and come out of "darkness".
---------------------------------------------------------

I think your WS is 'testing' you...and it's up to you to remind him that you are serious about him not coming to the house 'uninvited'. Is he using 'coming to see' the kids as the excuse? If so, specific arrangements need to be made about meeting with the kids 'elsewhere', and if WS needs to talk to them....well, he can phone them.....

I wouldn't worry so much about breaking the 'no contact'.... with kids can't avoid 'communication'..... I also know that an 'intermediary' would be preferable to avoid communicating directly.... and I don't know if this is possible in your case... if so, and you worry about 'direct contact', you might want to consider it.....

In my situation, the best I could do is communicate with my WS via 'phone messages'... meaning we don't talk to each other directly...I really like it because WS cannot try to convince me of anything, can't manipulate me, and can't spring up a request on me out of the blue... as it would be the case were we to have 'discussions'.... it's a question and answer situation.... and I can take all my time to think about my 'answers' .... but on a regular basis WS asks me to consider 'direct contact, discussions, for a more friendly co-parenting' because he finds 'phone messages' frustrating and unflexible.... my response to him has always been, more or less,.....'yes, I agree it would be better were we be able to talk to each other.... and would consider it as soon as he has ended A with OW' and at various times added that.... I considered A a major destructive obstacle of communication between us..... that I did not want to be in any kind of R with him if it meant in any way being part of a triangle....

....I miss H....but I am not interested in 'knowing' WS...AT ALL!

...my WS is hoping with time I will change my mind.... but I won't...with WS in an A 'anything' I say seems to trigger guilt so... I would be very 'limited' in what I could say anyway.... I don't really need a situation where I need to 'watch what I say' to avoid WS feeling guilty... he needs to end A if he feels so guilty about it and doesn't want to feel that way anymore.... it's not up to be me to make him feel OK about the A.... this is just to show you the 'thought process'of some WS... my WS is consumed with guilt.... he is working really hard at justifying his actions...to himself... and avoiding facing some of the consequences.... like the pain to me and the kids, for instance.....but, as the saying goes, you can run away...but you can't hide from yourself....

Anyway...this is getting long....take care RT.... don't give in to your WS!

RT, maybe coming to the house gives him a feeling of belonging. Maybe it's like a little pill, takes away some feelings of guilt and alienation and helps him carry on with the other thing. I don't know anything, just guessing.

If that's true, then given your current situation, you probably want to deprive him of that. If I were you, I'd repeat, without any fanfare, the message to please not come to the house, but I wouldn't make it a battle I refused to lose. Meaning that if he ignores the request and keeps coming around, you probably don't want to make it an escalating drama.

I guess you've allowed for email and don't really have an intermediary, right?

GC

Lunamare, that last para is just SO spot on! Particularly this:


I am certain this is the case with my WH, and without a doubt he is consumed with guilt. But it's not a "sacred guilt", of the kind that prompts change in behavior, it's more a self-indulgent, "poor me" guilt that can go on for a long time. Thanks so much for your insight and advice.

Thank you too, Graycloud. You're right, we don't have an intermediary (can't really think of anybody who'd be suitable), and I made allowances for e-mail from the start. I think you're right, at least in part, about the little pill. The other thing that occurs to me is that maybe he saw my Plan B letter as a reaction to what he did, and that I was "upset", and so now that enough time has passed, maybe he's thinking I'm less "upset" and therefore more flexible.

I'll write him an e-mail and post it up here for you guys to look at.

Thanks!

OK here is what I've written. I'd appreciate some feedback.

------------------

Dear WH,

Back on 30th December, I wrote you a letter. In the letter, I said you might want to print it out because you might need to refer to it. If you have lost it, or deleted it, I’ll be happy to furnish you with another copy, but in the meantime, there are a couple of things that I would like to refer back to.

In the letter, I said:

“Please do not ring me on the phone, or text me, or try to see me. Please do not come to the house or the property unannounced, and do not enter as you did on December 24 without knocking or being allowed in by me. We must remain in touch for the sake of the children and finances, but I think we can do this through e-mail. I am happy to speak to you should things be too complicated for an e-mail, but unless you are calling about a real emergency, please understand that the children and finances are the only subjects I am willing to discuss.”

There have been a few instances of you trying to contact me, but what I really want to draw your attention to at this time is the issue of you coming to the house or property unannounced, and entering the house without expressly being invited in by me. I would now like to reiterate: please do not come to the house or property unannounced, and do not enter the house unless you are expressly invited in by me. There is no reason for you to enter our home, particularly uninvited. And while I understand you wanting to see the children, seeing the children and coming to the property unannounced are two separate issues.

In the letter, I said, “this is not about vengefulness or playing some sort of game”. My letter and the conditions therein were not prompted by “upset” or “anger”, and given that this is the case, it will take more than the passage of time,or a change of heart or mind, for me to change the conditions. As stated in my original letter, conditions are only liable to change “when you have finished your affair with this woman and have ceased all contact with her”. Given that I have no reason to believe that you have ceased your affair and all contact with this woman, my conditions still stand.

When you end this affair, and cease all contact with this woman, I will be happy to talk to you and review the situation. Until then, as the Buddha said, “Nothing changes while nothing changes”, and I will ask you to respect my decision in this.

Please do not reply to this e-mail.

I remain yours, as ever,
River Tam

RT -

I would just keep it short and to the point. Then if you need to send him another copy of the Plan B letter later(if he violates your request again) I would re-send just that.

"WH,

Please respect my earlier request and do not come into the house. Until you have completely ended all pursuit of your Affair I cannot see or speak to you. If you need to see the children, please make arrangements ahead of time.

Love always,

RT"

His fogged out brain can't handle any more than that!!

Kim