Has anyone else read this book by James Dobson? It has really helped me to avoid love busting by crying and begging, not just because it will push him away further but also just for my own self respect. Would like some others opinions on how his advice fits in with MB...

Here is a quote from Dobson -

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one’s life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a “stranger”… a competitor ... a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let’s look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to “fool around” or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I’m sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, “I think I’ll die if you don’t marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don’t turn me down,” etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, “Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I’ve only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I’ll go straight out and kill myself!”

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to “sell himself” to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn’t love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: “John [or Diane], I’ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn’t face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can’t be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I’m reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I’m aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I’m going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He’ll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I’ll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead.”

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can’t believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn’t necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.

“But there must be a catch,” he thinks. “It’s too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she’ll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She’s really weak, you know, and she’ll crack under pressure.”

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously “grabby” lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, “How can I get out of this mess?” he now asks, “Do I really want to go?” Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.
This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15, “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace.” Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture.


I didn't find the MB site until well after I had sent WH packing. We are now almost divorced. So I don't know how well the Dobson plan works.

This is a thread from the emotional needs board that I responded to. I really think that Dobsons advice fits in with MB very well, expecially for those of us that really tend towards the emotional, begging, pleading, crying LB's. I think that by meeting other EN's while keeping our self respect, and not smothering the WS, in the process, keeps them from reacting instinctively to that claustrophobic feeling of I have to get away NOW. I think this is more along the lines of plan B, if they refuse to end the affair, or if they do, but then shut us out as a result, because of resentment, or feeling forced maybe? Of course, if they are willing to end the affair and agree to NC, then plan A is in order, which he encourages by saying that if the WS comes to you, asking for forgiveness, then set down guidelines of course, but by all means, take them back and work like you've never worked before to make that person happy to be with you! So I think that this might be a good handbook for plan B, what do you all think?







The more I try, the more he withdraws... is this normal?
#2905340 - 01/09/06 01:35 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Hello! I've posted before about how my husband and I are in 'big trouble' with our marriage. He's in 'withdrawal stage' I'm in 'conflict stage'. I've noticed that the more I try to undo lb's and attempt to meet en's the more he withdraws and the meaner and nastier he gets. It's to the point where he says he refuses to ever have sex with me again, he does not want me touching him, he does not sleep in the same bed with me and he says he wants to make it so that only one of us is home at a time (working different shifts, etc), he also stated he's leaving here for good in the spring (we have 3 small children and i'm pregnant with our 4th, due early May).
I'm feeling completely hopeless and am about to 'throw in the towel'... It's like he's completely determined to hate me and it seems nothing I do is making any difference, and just making things worse. PLEASE, anyone out there, CAN YOU HELP ME??? I'm on my last nerve, I feel a terrible emptiness and I know I'm entering a deep depression over the uncontrollable situation. I truly need someone to talk to. Thank you.

Post Extras:

Tama
Member


Reged: 04/02/05
Posts: 1396
Re: The more I try, the more he withdraws... is this normal? [Re: desiderada]
#2905349 - 01/09/06 01:45 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



((((((((desiderada))))))))))

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Being pregnant and dealing with the elevated emotions and hormone levels make your situation even harder to deal with, I'm sure.

I don't have any advice to give, but I'm a good listener. Someone will come along that can offer you the kind of help you need. Till then I just wanted you to know that I'm here and I care.

Tama

Post Extras:

momfortwo116
Member


Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 36
Re: The more I try, the more he withdraws... is this normal? [Re: Tama]
#2905388 - 01/09/06 02:17 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Desidera,

I went back and read your other posts, and one thing I noticed from what you read is that he tries to get you to blow up at him. Is that right?

Also, the fact that he's laying all of this out on you while you're pregnant is inexcusable.

One more thing I got a sneaking suspicion on is, do you think that you two are co-dependents? Some info at this website http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm

Sweetie, this is not something you should be going through while you're pregnant.

--------------------
Sue
M: 9/90
H: 42
Me: 39
Ds: 12
DD: 9

I appreciate this site so much.

Post Extras:

sutherlandgirl
Member


Reged: 11/11/05
Posts: 47
Re: The more I try, the more he withdraws... is this normal? [Re: momfortwo116]
#2905718 - 01/09/06 06:25 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Des,
My heart truly goes out to you! I'm in a situation very similiar to yours. I'm 4 months pregnant and have been trying to meet his EN for 2 months now. He also gave me an ultimatum last week, no touching him, absolutely no sex, (so don't even try) don't talk to him, and he's been sleeping on the couch. I think the reason for this is my mistaking what his EN actually are, since he isn't agreeable to filling out the questionaire. (probly like your H) Anyways, I guess I'd just had it and finally said "fine, I won't touch you, I won't ask if you want to come to bed yet (at 3 or 4am), I won't try to initiate sex, nothing" I had mistakenly thought some of his EN's were affection and sex. I've continued with keeping the house really clean and letting him know I appreciate him working so hard to financially care for our large family. (this baby is #7) I must have finally hit on what his true EN's are, because I feel as if we've had a huge breakthrough! When he didn't come to bed again last night, I just ignored it. (normally I would kiss him on the forhead and say something like, you'll probly sleep better in the bed honey. Or at the very least, turn off the tv and put a blanket on him) But not last night, left the tv blaring and all. And then when 7 am rolled around, took the older kids to school and then came back and started on laundry like usual, which is very noisy and in the same room (normally I would tip-toe around while he slept in) Then I went and ran errands with the kids, telling him where I was going, but no trying to kiss him goodbye or I'll see you later sweetie. When I got back, he asked several times if I was ok, I said fine, why? Oh, you're just acting strange today. I almost felt as though I was being rude, I'm normally such a lovey dovey, polite, helpful, doormat kind of person. But low and behold, before he went to work, HE initiated a relationship talk!! This has never happened!! He said "What are we gonna do sweetie? I don't want it like this between us, so awkward" I said "I'm not sure what to do. It's in your hands though, I'm ready to love you, but I'm not gonna force it on you" I was calm, no tears, no trying to hug him, nothing. Anyways, he finishes by giving me a hug and several very tender kisses and said "I do love you, and I really want us to work this out"!!! This is the first time in months that he has shown this kind of love for me! I don't know if your hubby would react in the same way, but obviously what you are doing isn't working. Please someone with more insight and maybe longer term positive results, please reply and help this lady with ideas. Also on what I've suggested, what's your opinion? And please hang in there, Des, I do know how hard it is! When you're pregnant, you want so much to be cherished and protected and it's almost impossible to go through such rejection without losing it! Hang in there!! {{{{}}}}

Post Extras:

sutherlandgirl
Member


Reged: 11/11/05
Posts: 47
Re: The more I try, the more he withdraws... is this normal? [Re: sutherlandgirl]
#2905866 - 01/09/06 08:36 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Des,
I went to the library after writing this to you and just happened to check out a book by James Dobson called Love must be Tough. I've read books by him in the past about child rearing and have a lot of respect for his opinions. But it really hit me between the eyes when what he advises is exactly what I described above! He said that you will see instantaneous results by just backing off, when the other person is feeling trapped, which our husbands definately are, when they don't even want to talk to or touch us. Please, please, please, go to the library and get this book!! It seems to fit in with MB principles in many ways, just placing more emphasis on having some self respect. I hope you will check this thread and soon.. I know the anguish you are going through.

Well, this was the first book I read when WH threatened leaving two weeks before he did. It was a HUGE lifesaver for me, and still is my fav, because of the respect part. I think this helps BS's whose WS's don't leave the OP immediately. Like when my WH finally admitted to SF with the other woman, and I looked him in the eye and said "I can and will forgive you for this--you need to walk away from her now." and he didn't and is still with her--well, I see Dobson's point on respect. And I agree. I think when the WS, immediately upon d-day, is repentent and willing to walk away, then the M has a much better chance, and that MB principles work best. It is when, like in my case, the WS is not ready to even admit it is wrong or give OP up, that Dobson 's ideas are more in line. In the first case, respect is being shown, in the latter, there is no respect at all.

Even more, being preggo through this, I feel this book was more for me than others. I did not once beg or plead. And I feel so proud of myself for that. God laid this book in my hands--literally. I went to the bookstore-a mess--and said a quick prayer for guidance and then saw this book. Read it in a night.

Some things I liked--
1. I think it mentions not to sleep with WS after he leaves until he returns home. Dobson says you will feel horrible about yourself and used. And I think once adultery is brought into the picture, you have that right to protect yourself and should do so.
2. I like how his plan, like MB's plan A, helps you to become a better you--demanding respect and therefore, in my case, becoming stronger because of it.
3. I liked that it was written by DObson--he's highly respected, not some flook, and very knowledgeable.
4. I like that he doesn;t make promises.
5. I like that he does not place blame on the BS.
6. I like that it is comparable to MB in basic principles.

In texas,
OMG... you are due any day! My heart goes out to you!! I am due June 12th. I agree absolutely with you about when the WS denies the affair or blatantly continues it, you have to be very clear about how that in NOT something that you are ok with. And especially being so much more vulnerable because of being pregnant, you have to be able to keep your self respect, or no one else will ever respect you. I've been using the MB principles since day one, but this was the missing link for me. I got it at the library today and am almost finished reading it already. It was as if it was written for me! Obviously it can't save every marraige, as you are getting a divorce, which I'm so sorry for. But as you say, you didn't plead or beg once, and how much worse this would be for you if you had those memories of humiliating yourself only for him to still cast you aside. Thank you for your input, I hope that Desidera reads this thread!

Sgirl--
Yes, I'll have the baby via induction Wednesday.
I really did do MB principles, too, as he was always told I did not want a D and would fight for my M. I have not LB'd at all to my knowledge, and I have exposed, etc. Plan B didn't seem the best idea since he moved out before any of this was discovered, and because there would be no go-between with my little ones as I have no family in TX.

I think for pregnant women especially, a good combo of LMBT and MB is the right plan.

And you're right. I am getting divorced. I did nothing wrong, though, and have no regrets. I am saddened beyond belief that this is my reality and the reality for my kids, but nothing I did or didn't do can change what is happening.

MY WH is a narcissistic person, and ultimately, he would have to change for anthing to happen.

Plan A--the beauty of it--is you change for yourself--and hope WS changes--but if you don't realize that you cannot control the WS, then you are in for a world of hurt.

trust me, it took many a poster (especially MelodyLane) to get mt to this point. And I am grateful to them all.