Snoopy73b,

I certainly agree that being together that long is going to "feel" like a marriage. I wasn't saying that living together didn't mean NO commitment, but there is a lack of commitment because otherwise you would have married. There is NO reason not to marry if you have a full commitment.

But, the pain of losing someone after that long is going to be the same, I'm sure, as anyone here.

The only thing I can see differently is that I can say "YOU MADE A COMMITMENT TO ME & BROKE IT". Also, the OW knows he made that commitment as well. When living together, anyone can say "We are not married!" when they find it convienent to cheat.

Believer,

I'm sorry to hear that because I've been wishing I had spent my time looking for a man at church instead of meeting a non-Christian & putting all my love & trust in my H. I guess that is why we are all sinners & God warns us about it over & over, because all of us have the potential to get lost in sin. I just hope haven't lost your faith through this.

John 1:12-15
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; [color:"red"] but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.[/color]

No, I haven't lost my faith. In fact, it is stronger than ever. However, I'm a bit more cynical now. I realize that marrying a Christian doesn't guarantee anything. If I had it to do over, I would have insisted on a pre-nup agreement.

Believer,

I'm glad you haven't lost faith & have actually gained faith. You past the test & you will be stronger for it.

I do agree that marrying a Christian doesn't guarantee anything, but I still want to have hope that being a Christian at least gives the believer a sense that they are accountable for their actions - if not now, on judgement day. For those who have no belief, they feel like even though their conscience may tell them something is wrong, there is NOTHING that is in judgement, therefore, it's reallly about feelings and what you want, not about right & wrong.

I completely agree that many Christians get enticed just as John 1:12-15 says & they give into their own evil desires which then overtakes them. Just recently a Baptist preacher in my area was arrested for trying to pick up a mail prostitute in another city.

I just cannot gauge all Christians by those who gave into their own evil desires because I know there are good men & women I see every week at church who are very faithful to their faith in Jesus, their families & their church. And my own experience through having a grandmother who was a shining example of a Christian woman shows me that there are those out there who will NOT give into their own evil desires.

But, without any belief in Jesus or judgment, what accountability do people have? My experience is watching a non-believer, my H, act like there is No God for most of our marriage, and to have the miracle before my eyes & realize that there is a God. I know how it changes the perspective. He could lie to me about little things before because it didn't matter (no one was keeping a journal of it, you know), to knowing now it doesn't matter if I KNOW, it only matters what God knows. So, his accountability is with God. It leaves me feeling safer, although, I am aware he is not sinless or sin-proof.

Interesting stuff, folks. I am (like every one of you) re-examining my life, my faith, my decisions.

We have three WONDERFUL children, and I can not imagine my life without them. I would not be 1% of what I am today (still only 4%....) without my kids.

I find myself wondering about the wisdom of marrying my ww. Her mom had been married 6 times. She had lived with her BF just out of high school. And I found out more after we were married. BUT - she found me interesting because of my unashamed faith. She is a Christian, and had decided to be much more devoted. She was active in our church and counseled in our couseling department. But she was not a virgin - had lived with someone else - was way more experienced with life - many of the items on lists you see here. Now she has had at least 4 affairs and is divorcing me for her "freedom". (I still think reconciliation is the best path, but I am really not interested in trying to save the marriage)

Had I married a person who was not so experienced - who had held out for me like I for her - would we still be together? I can not answer that. But I can guess. I think we would have made it.

I am very close to my situation and not very objective at this point. But I believe that living together is one more element that sets up marriages for failure.

The good points of living together not married:
1. sex with someone who you love and loves you (with less worry about stds)
2. no permanent commitment


And I think #2 is the main factor. I know I was scared to death of that commitment. I'll bet that most of the folks here understand what I am talking about.

Of course - some couples live wonderful lives together - never married. How many can you name?

foundareason,

I agree with you for the reasons of living together without getting married. I'll add to that:

The good points of living together not married:
3. Able to live a higher quality of life based on dual income
4. Convenience (you spend all your time together anyway so someone's place is always empty).

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I think looking at the families of those we plan to marry is vitally important now. God says the apple doesn't fall far from the tree & he wasn't kidding.

My FWH's mother was married 4-5 times with many live-ins and a crazy life. She ran off in the middle of the night leaving her 2 children with her first husband to go off with my H's father. She lost custody of those 2 children because she left the state & he filed abandonment charges against her. She married my H's father but it didn't last either. Then, on to the next guy, etc.

My H's father was addicted to cheating. He couldn't be faithful to anyone & was an alcoholic. He had many failed marriages as well. I believe my H's mother had problems with alcohol back then too as she spent much time in bars when my H was a child.

Could I not see the writing on the wall? I guess I never wanted to be defined by my mother's or father's mistakes (father cheated on my mother & mother had 2 failed marriages) so I tried not to define others by their parent's mistakes. But, what I didn't realize is that my mother is the ONLY divorced member of my family so there were good examples all around and that had a great impact on me. Plus, I grew up knowing God & having a Godly family. My H had neither of those things.

I also have an education (Bachelor's degree) while my H does not (H.S. dropout - what was I thinking???). We got married at ages 27 & 28 so we didn't rush it. However, we do not have similar backgrounds. He grew up on welfare & I lived a typical middle class life. Two different worlds. I guess I didn't think I deserved better (self-esteem issues have been a great source of problems for me).

For me the answer to the question on why people should NOT just live together is very simple:

Living together and/or living together before marriage implicates pre-marital sex and/or sex outside marriage (fornication) which is a sin in the eyes of God and against His will and commands… Even a couple who already live happily together for years and have a good and fulfilling relationship, still live outside the will of God if they engage themselves in the act of fornication (sex outside marriage) with each other. "Free sex" have become an epedemic in these modern times of today and free sex includes ALL forms of sex outside marraige...even sex with just one committed partner. A liberal lyfestyle have become the norm today but is clearly against the will & commands of God.

Dear Believer, I understand what you’re saying but you know what? You’ve chosen to follow God’s commandments and follow His will for your life by NOT just living together and living in “sexual sin” with your H. You did the right thing by marrying your H in stead of living together although I agree you should have protected yourself better financially, but how should you have known? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> As you’ve said, marriage don’t guarantee anything, not even for believers, but at least you can rest assure that – although you’re divorced now – the failing of your M was NOT your fault and you have followed God’s commandments at all times. This is the most important. Nothing is guaranteed here on earth, but there is guarantee after this life and you should hold on to that promise no matter what! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just wanted to post this to you give you some encouragement & hope in spite of your circumstances and bad experiences.

My husband and I lived together for 5 years before we got married. It wasn't fear of commitment that kept me from marrying -- it was fear of MARRIAGE. I needed to see that we could make a life together, and trust that that life would continue once we got married. Throughout our engagement, I worried that we would hate being married, that it would ruin everything. Finally, 2 weeks before the wedding, my husband said something very reassuring: "We're happy now. So if we hate being married, we'll pretend like it never happened." It sounds silly now, but that really helped.

Fortunately, marriage changed nothing, and we are very happy.

But if you ask me now why we went ahead and got married, I can't really answer you. I don't know. I didn't NEED it.

1. Is it important to get married?
2. What is the gain?
3. Why not just live together?
4. What is the advantage of being married?

I was married for 18 years, but lived together 2.5 yrs. before marriage. I raised 3 kids in that marriage. 1.5 years after that marriage ended, I met someone special again. We have lived together 4.5 years and have a child together. Here are my feelings in general:

Marriage is a formal recognition to the rest of the world, to God, and to each other that:
(1) You are labeled as not single but in a permanent and committed relationship;
Side note: Advantage is supposed to be that by being married you both are officially reminded that you belong to each other and should not flirt or stray, and others should similarly be reminded of this by virtue that you are publicly known to be married. If you are not married, your partner could argue with you then why can't they flirt or date others, whereas in a marriage this boundary can be talked about as one of the ground rules of the relationship, otherwise there should no longer be a marriage.

What is not assured is that whether people will join together too quickly or for the wrong reasons, whether getting married or living together, before they are firstoff sure in their minds that they are mature and confident enough to make a lifelong committment, before they know themselves well enough and know their partner well enough that they are confident they have made a reliable choice for long-term compatibility, love, respect, and responsibility towards one another. There is a danger if you leap into cohabitation or marriage while you are in the fog of a new relationship that you might not see clearly whether this is a reliable relationship.

(2) Marriage officially recognizes that you took a vow to stay together forever, which should build up a sense of security and trust, and allows you to feel safe making long-term plans for the future, financially saving, investing in a home, or borrowing money together, having children together, or moving far away from your families of origin to have a better life together and feeling secure and not vulnerable in so doing.

(3) Marriage also formally acknowledges that you are planning on caring for each other when you get old, in sickness and health, which acknowledges your intent to provide a nurturing committment.

(4) Marriage is a legal committment that ensures you have completely shared responsibilities to financially support each other; your debts are your spouse's debts, your assets are their assets; and your insurer must also offer coverage to support their medical, home, or auto accident expenses. Side note: Even if you divorce, this financial protection will still be there, to an extent, so you may still have retirement money, shared interest in your spouses acquired assets, and shared responsibility for marital debts. None of this exists if you merely cohabitate.

(5) The legal committment to share everything extends even beyond your death, so your assets and retirement become theirs, and they are provided as a default if some asset was not addressed in your will.

(6) To dissolve a marriage requires a legal instrument, and usually considerable effort and expense to hash out the splitting of assets, pension, and alimony issues. This alone makes a couple think twice because when an acute conflict arises, one cannot just wipe their hands of the whole relationship right there on the spot and break up permanently. The legal framework of marriage helps to slow down the impulsive process to join together too hastily or to break up too hastily, but this principle is not anywhere near foolproof -- just look at the celebrity 24 hour marriages, for example.

As far as living together, you don't have the legal assurances or emotional assurances, or the automatic ground rules to claim that you should behave like you are in a committed relationship. So trust is harder to come by. However, if you have the trust, if you are mature, then living together can work. Most people who live together after having a failed marriage are doing so because they are not sure they are with the right person, or they are afraid they will "jinx" the relationship. Technically, if you are not sure you are with the right person, then you shouldn't really be living together because the fog of being in love may allow you both to trust each other to an extent you really should not when making financial or other long-term plans.

Disadvantages: Teenagers who do not know themselves well enough or are not mature enough, or do not know their partners well enough would be better off living apart and dating than either living together or getting married hastily. If they end up living together unmarried, I don't think they should be encouraged to get married hastily.

With older couples, the situation is different. If they have been married before, they should have a cooling off period before living together or getting married again. It is a good idea to get to know each other for a sufficient time to be more confident of their perceived compatibility before living together or getting married. They should not entrust each other to long-term shared financial obligations or having children before they know each other well enough to make a lifelong committment. Marriage offers a convenient, all encompassing package that legally and morally formalizes these committments. But marriage does not ensure compliance, it is just the framework.

There are some difficult situations where couples don't get married but intend to. The risk is loss of financial protection if one member leaves or dies. But there may be temporary advantages. For example, in my case, my stepdaughter would not receive $7000 a year in free college grants if we were married, because she would not qualify for any grants if her combined parent's income were 5 times larger. So we have temporarily postponed marriage until her daughter's last semester.

Thanks guys, but you know there is something about being married that changes folks. Before we married, my WH was devoted to me. We knew each other for several years and dated for almost 2 years. He is the one that pursued.

Once we got married, that was the end of any effort on his part. He stopped wanting to do anything that I liked to do, things that he did before we married.

The other thing that bothers me is that a Christian will tell you that he is saved by believing in Jesus. That gives many license to do whatever they feel like doing. After breaking up our home, and encouraging OW to abandon her daughter and husband, my WH still says he is going straight to heaven. He is saved. OW is the same way.

The OW's husband, on the other hand is an atheist. He has behaved honorably throughout these past 3 years. He came home from fighting in Iraq to find out his wife was having an affair. He has been working 2 jobs and taking care of their daughter alone. I have never heard him say an unkind word.

Hi Daisy, I haven't read your new thread, and am catching up - but I just read Believer's post which interested me.

That is exactly what happened to my STBXH. He is Catholic, but never really practiced it before. When the whole "my life is empty, my wife must be the reason for this emptiness and unhappiness" belief plus a series of one-way emotional affairs took place, he started to go to church (although it lasted only for a few months...).

Now he truly believes he will be "saved" because he is doing the "right" things by abandoning his family in hid mind. In his mind, he needs to "get away" from this "unhealthy" relationship (although again, he is the one who had drug and sexual addictions and had been arrested), and he clearly told his brother that "Jesus told me to divorce Milk".

When one is so convinced, it's almost worse than those who do not have any religions, as at least those people cannot use religions as an excuse to break up their families.

I betcha if they didn't have religion to use as an excuse, they would find something else. He was intent on leaving and would have used anything as an excuse. I bet he would have left even if he didn't have religion as a scapegoat. But, that can't be blamed on belief in God. Christianity clearly condemns adultery, abandonment and lying.

I've thought about this a lot. My STBX has no religious beliefs of any kind, though he works in a Catholic school.

I know that all kinds of people, religious and atheist, are suseptable to an A. But it seems to me that an atheist, like my STBX, has less to justify than a Christian, for example. His 'moral code' isn't written down in black and white, so he can change it to suit him.

Alph.

Mel, you are right, my STBXH would have probably used anything as an excuse to justify his action. But what scares me is that, really, before, he almost did not have any religious beliefs and now he believes he "found" God and he is doing the right thing.

In the past, he would lie, and if I asked him if he could swear in front of his dead mother's tomb, he would say yes -I could never understand how he could have done that. I was not Christian, still I could have never lied like that. If I find out later that he was lying and ask him about it, at least, though, he seemed to have felt bad. This is when he did not really believe in God.

Now, he would still lie, but the difference is that now he justfies it and feels GOOD about his action. I don't think he believes lying is a good thing, but he believes in order for him to get what he wants, sometimes lying may be necessary. And this is okay, because God is behind him. Because "He told STBXH" to divorce me. STBXH told me that he is being "selfish", but it is okay, because this is how he becomes "healthy" and a "happy" person, which in the end is a good thing for our son. I know this sounds very crazy, but STBX truly believes in this...

They are clearly mistaken if your WH & OW believe they have a license to do whatever they feel. In fact, a true Christian knows that judgment will be harder on those who know better & ignore God's law. That is Satan's lie if they choose to believe that. And they are storing up wrath for themselves. God is the one in the end that decides who is saved & who is not. That's why each of us has to rely on him & trust in him & be the best Christian we can be. Your WH & OW are playing a dangerous game with God. If they are saved, he has a tether on them & will in time pull them back to him (by whatever means necessary). This could mean they will have even more pain & trials come their way in the future. OR if they never come back to God & repent, maybe they were never really saved in the first place. Thank God I don't have to decide that & it is in his hands.

Let's also try to remember that there are wolves among the sheep as God has told us over & over. Many people claiming to be Christians are NOT!

Let's also try to remember that there are wolves among the sheep as God has told us over & over. When Paul was writing about this, he was distraught about it (warning them night & day with tears). This means there are those who claim to be Christians and are not.

Acts 20:25-29
25"Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

God gives us a clear indication of how to know who are real Christians & who are not in his word!! It is by their actions, not their words.

John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Romans 7:5
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

Matthew 7:16-20
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

With those verses in mind, ask yourself by the fruit you see produced by these people claiming to be Christians if they fit God's definition?

Well, God has written the law on every man & woman's conscience. So, even if they don't believe in God, they know what is right & what is wrong. Overtime their conscience can be eroded & "fogged" if we wnat to use that term. The atheist may not believe but he is still subject to the law & will know this the day God sits in judgment.

DOING THE RIGHT THINGS? YOU CAN "DO" NOTHING TO BE SAVED. The problem I find with the Catholic faith (no offense) is that Catecism contradicts the bible & says man must do works to be saved. But, that is not what the bible says at all.


Romans 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works . They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

John 6:28-40
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The bible clearly states over & over that the only thing we can do for salvation is believe in Jesus. Of course, belief will make a person change & it will be clearly seen by others. But, no amount of good works will get us anywhere.

curious53,

Marriage IS the commitment. That means Marriage=Commitment so you could say that fear of commitment is OR equals fear of marriage.