As was so kindly pointed out to me, I might get more advice specific to my sitch, if I would put it all in one thread instead of posting all over the place. So here goes:

T (FWH) and I married in Sept, after dating for almost 2 years, and after being lifelong friends. I'm 4 mos pregnant with our 7th child. (he had 2, I had 4, when we got together) We both grew up in sexually, physically, mentally, and emotionally abusive homes. We both cheated and were cheated on during our previous marriages. (continuing EA with each other, PA with others) We both have addictive tendancies toward sex, alcohol, lying, spending, and with him, tv. Our only positive addiction is exercise. I also have strong suicidal tendancies, which scares him to death, since his best friend in high school committed suicide in 11th grade. (he has nursed me through several attempts over the years, taking me to the hospital and such) I know, sounds bad, but we made it this far, by leaning on each other, (probly codependant, working on that) and raising some really great kids in the process. So anyways, we both end up divorced, start dating and think, wow, this is great, this is what we should have done a long time ago! But of course, all these other issues will affect this relationship just as they affect everything else in our lives.

About a month before we're married, he starts stressing out and we even considered holding off, but finally decided it was just jitters. So we get married and then the real stress begins. My grandma died the day of our wedding, and so instead of a honeymoon, we went to a funeral. We return to him being laid off from his job. He gets depressed and I get pregnant. He deals with it by chatting on the internet with anonymous women who don't know that he's married. Nothing sexual, just flirty. I think it was a boost to his self esteem, that these women thought he was such a nice guy. I found out after a few weeks, and was devastated and furious. I almost commited suicide, then instead, just packed up and left him. I didn't tell him where I was going, just why. He was scared to death, and after finally tracking me down, begged me to come back. I did, and we've been going to counseling. We are doing better, still both afraid to let down our guard too much, but making some progress.

If you want to read the whole nine yards, just search under sutherlandgirl. I did have a whole post typed out that was much more detailed and then lost it somehow! Thank you all for your support and advice, I really do appreciate this group!

Dear Sgirl

You don't ask any questions so I don't have any specific feedback. Be welcome to MB, and may God bless your struggle to improve your M!
Congratulations with your first thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the welcome, Frank! I've actually been around for a couple of months but just kept posting here and there on other people's threads until it was suggested I start my own. I do still have lots of questions and insecurities about my sitch, maybe I'll cut and paste some of my other posts onto this thread...

Sutherlandgirl,

Ok, I will start by saying I am a scientist. You may wonder why I would offer such information. Well, by profession and proclivity I am a problem solver or riddle solver if you consider our dealing with nature and all.

So my comment to you is this, start by picking the most serious issues and dealing with them one at a time.

I would say the first is your suicidal tendencies. Now I note that since I am talking to you that you have failed in all attempts, suggesting the attempts are a means to address issues. I think you might recognize that if you successfully commit suicide then all other problems are moot.

So the idea is for you to survive first and foremost, go to counseling and address this BEFORE you worry about your H's fidelity, or the other problems you have. You must become emotionally healthier in order to deal with the other issues in your life. Your H can only support you, he cannot cure you, or address your issues in this regard.

Next, address your abuse issues and I would recommend to you that you encourage your H to do the same. It has been seen here time after time, that people with abuse issues often have serious marriage issues and yes infidelity is one of them.

Next after you both have been in IC address the marriage issues. I think many of them will go away if you are successful in addressing the former issues.

You already understand what very likely motivated your H to do what he did. It was NOT about you, but you can help him as he has and can help you. He was attempting a different type of suicide than you but for the same reasons, the thought that running away would be better.

You two obviously have a lot of love, and history between you. What you both need are better tools to deal with life, and that will help you deal with your marriage.

Please seek professional counseling. I am not suggesting that you should not post here, but Dear Lady your issues are serious and we are amateurs. Don't mess around with this because in your case they are life threatening issues.

So now what are those questions you would like to ask? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

{{{{JL}}}}
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I agree with everything you've said and we are in counseling. (both IC and MC) I've been in mandatory IC for 2 years, ever since my lockdown in the phsych ward for the 2nd failed attempt. (the first one I didn't go to the doctor, was just sick, but not enough to die. 2nd time, while going through my divorce, I did a much better job, but was found out and thankfully my friend took me to the ER) The 3rd and most recent time, after finding my husband's disloyalty, I didn't actually try suicide, the thought of the baby inside me was enough to keep me somewhat thinking clearly but I was really afraid of the spiral my mind was going down, and so I called a suicide hotline, and just spent the night in the hospital. I am on AD which help alot, and still working on my issues. But thank you for seeing the positive there is in my relationship with my husband. Most of the advice I get is to just leave him, that I'd be better off on my own. But I don't have another support system, he is my support, physically, emotionally, financially. And even with all the bad parts, he has been the best part of my life. Anyways, so maybe I just need someone to talk to as much as getting opinions and advice. I do have some questions but my son is bugging to get on the computer, so I've got to go for now. Thanks again!!!

I like your spirit. I like the way you can see from a new perspective. I like anyone who hugs JL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He gave you a great plan and asked if what your questions were. I didn't want you to lose sight of that in the relief you're feeling within your marriage. Also, I wanted to ask you if you can see where it is that you are your own support?

And I wanted to say how much I like you.

LA

LovingAnyway,

You are too kind, hugs are good aren't they? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SutherlandGirl,

You said something I think you need to reflect on. You said
He is also like you in that he tried to run away from his problems. I know this is going to sound odd to you, and I know you are hurt by his choices in handling issues. But, consider you also choose to run away and he has supported you, but at a cost...himself.

IF you want to affair proof your marriage, remember this man needs you and needs your support. I realize you see him as your support...emotionally, physically, and financially, but do you see that he needs your support. He needs someone to talk to, to listen to his problems, and be strong for him.

That person is YOU. I know you don't feel very strong and have not for awhile, but you are far stronger than you realize and he is not as strong as you think.

Talk about the affair, but ask him something that just might shock him. Watch him closely when you ask "H, how can I help you?" That simple question will offer him many things, but show him more. If you love the man as you say you do, perhaps you might consider offering him a hand with all of this.

Love is a powerful VERB and interestingly the more you LOVE someone the stronger you become. Consider that your H needs someone to listen to him, give him {{{hugs}}} <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />, and be his support.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

PS: He cheated on you but remember your suicide attempts cheated on him as well. Neither of you feel real safe do you?

Yes, you are right in your PS. He doesn't feel safe, that I won't fall apart again and do something like that. Especially now that we are so much closer than "just" friends. And I think the fear of losing the other is so much greater than in a lot of marriages because of having been each other's best friend for so long. I DO feel stronger when I think about being there for him and my kids. It's just when I think about me, about my pain, that I feel overwhelmed. I am trying to show him I want to be a support for him but I think he's afraid to lean on me. So I'm trying to become stronger on my own, not only to not be so draining on him, but also in order to have something to offer to him. As far as my support system, that's something that the counselor is really working with me on. I'm hoping to make some friends at work (since we just moved to this area) and I'm also wanting to join a mom's group. My H just yesterday talked to me about going to church so maybe we could meet some couples there. My family is not at all supportive, loving, or helpful. My mom tries, but is completely overwhelmed by her own physical and emotional problems. I don't really know my dad, and my sisters are downright hateful. I am close to my H's younger brother (we all grew up together and he is gay) but H doesn't like me to discuss any of our problems with family. It's still nice to have someone hug me and act like they care. I really do appreciate your insights, you seem to cut right through to the heart of things JL. Like how he's been there for me, at great cost to himself. That's so true. Also, thank you LA, just for liking me! I needed that!!

(((((Sutherland))))))

You are stronger than you give yourself credit for. Look at the openness and contemplation you took JL's advice with! And I have to say...your family is my family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Okay, only one sister, but I feel she dislikes me intensely.

I have nothing to add, which is normal when JL is here. I want to know how you're doing today, what you're feeling and how you're going about getting to the root of your pain. You could help me with that, if you want to share. If you don't, I understand.

Just wanted to hug and run....

LA

Today has been rough. Last night was the best we've had in a long time, but I screwed it up. He came to bed with me finally last night, around 2:30 in the morning. (He has only done this a few times since we've been back together) But before, he'd have on sweats, long sleeve shirt and socks, then of course he's too hot to be under the covers with me, so it was probly just cuz the couch hurt his back. But last night, he just wore his boxers and actually held me, closely!!! Somewhere in the middle of the night, I took off my pj's, it just felt so good to feel him next to me! Then this morning, I told him how much it meant to me. I thought that surely it was ok to show a little of how I feel, after he opened up so much. But he said it made him feel stupid for me to tell him that. Then the conversation went on to how he hates it when I complement him in any way. I haven't been doing this in the last week or so, but used to quite a bit. So in trying to understand where in the world he's coming from, I ask, you mean like when I say that you are good looking or that I appreciate you working so hard for the family or that you're sexy or what? And he just starts getting mad, saying I hate these conversations! Why can't we be a normal couple? Why do we have to talk about stupid things like what kind of compliments we can give? I'm just dumbfounded, said I'm sorry, and ugh, I hate to admit it but I started to cry. He said "someday you're going to push me too far, and when I'm done, I'm done" Then I started to get angry and said "what do you want from me?" He says "I don't want anything from you!" I'm like "No, you want me to cook and clean and take care of the kids, just don't expect any love or affection from you and for heaven's sake, don't touch you, or kiss you, or complement you or appreciate you, and by all means, just keep my mouth shut!" Then I was on a roll, and said "well, I want something from you! I'm your wife and I'm carrying your child and I want some affection from you! I want a hug occasionally, a how are you feeling, a you look pretty today, and darn it, I don't think it's asking to much of you to come to bed with me one night a week, and maybe even force yourself to make love to me once or twice a month!!" Oh, it was awful. He yelled back "fine! If that's what I have to do, I'll do anything to get you to shut up! Whether I like it or not.." Then I interupted him and said "Forget it! If it's that horrible for you, forget it. I don't want any of that any more. I'm not that desperate for any one to show me love, that I'm going to beg for them to do it against their will!" We haven't talked to each other all day although after dinner, he did come up to me and say "that was delicious, thank you" and heaven help me, there was a part of me that just wanted to spit at him, "oh, what makes you think you have the right to complement me or thank me, when it's the end of the world when I have the gall to do it to you!" But I didn't, I just said, stared at him, probly with my mouth probly hanging open. I'm so confused. I just want to cry.. I just wish I knew what to do now? Pull back again and pretend like it never happened? I was afraid at first that this would be the straw that broke the camel's back and he would move out, but after his comment about dinner, I don't know. I guess at best, we're back to square one... Thank you all for your kind words and insight, have any about all this though?

"I told him how much it meant to me." Was it something like, "I enjoyed that. Thank you."? Or a bit more than that? I understand how wrong it feels to not be able to say what you really feel. How can that be wrong?

Well, do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

Your H feels responsible for your well being. He's loved you through so much, like JL said. He feels engulfed by your good and bad feelings. You can tell yourself, wow, this is so wonderful, I needed it, he was here, I was held, I felt the skin I adore...whatever you said aloud, you can say here or to yourself. For now, you have to demonstrate that you have your own feelings and they are yours. Just for now.

"But he said it made him feel stupid for me to tell him that." You put a but in there. You had an expectation and it was dashed. You control your own expectations, too. He said how he felt when you said how you feel. Good to know! Leave it at that. You said the conversation went on to more hurtful things, but if you had left it at that, would he have continued?

He told you he felt you saying how much you loved what he did was a compliment to him, and that he hates compliments. Accept that for now. That is all about him. He's saying how he feels in reaction to something. That's no slam on you. Doesn't matter that it's difficult (really difficult) to comprehend when you crave what you're giving! Allow him to say his feelings, too. It was great that he did. They are not about you. You're not doing stuff wrong--you just slipped into treating him how you'd like to be treated. You would want to be appreciated for doing what he did; you long to be complimented.

You didn't understand and you wanted to clarify and all he wanted was for you to accept what he said. That's a tough one. Then it escalated and the LBs flew.

No doubt you both are in pain, a really rough place, and the only one here is you. That makes you have to bear the burden. That's why you're strong already. He wants to be heard. Accepted. Maybe he feels engulfed by your needs and guilty for not filling them. He could be on that downward spiral you know so intimately.

I think it rocked he thanked you for dinner and complimented you. He knows you. You know him. He loves you. It was like he was saying, "Here, I understand. I appreciate" instead of "I'm sorry we escalated. I didn't feel accepted for what I said were my feelings. I'm sorry I said I would do anything to shut you up."

I'm tired now, and heart-sorry for you. I feel all over again what that rejection, that how could I have done this wrong feeling feels like again. It wasn't wrong. It wasn't helpful. Would you do me a favor and look up my posts? I can't remember now, but I have a theory that the Golden Rule is actually the road to ****** in disguise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Treating others how you want to be treated can create really skewed expectations, enmeshment and crazy-making. It's just a theory.

He's telling you how he wants to be treated. Respect that it's really different. He's in flux and it might change, or it might not. But trust him to let you know. He did that. A little.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Sutherland}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

LA

Thank you so much for your breakdown of our conversation and explaining it to me in a way that I can understand! It's so hard in the middle of so many emotions to get the gist of what's going on, ya know? It's 3am and I'm wide awake with a killer headache. He did actually come to bed last night (at 11pm!!) but is laying as far as he can on his side of the bed. Tomorrow is going to be rough as one of my oldest daughters closest friends was killed in a car wreck and tmr is the funeral. My H has to work, so I'm on my own in trying to help her deal with it. Again, who am I used to leaning on when overwhelmed? I'm beginning to see a pattern emerge, no wonder it drives him nuts at times. Anyway, I wish I would have come on here to rave about how happy last night made me, and never have mentioned it to him! I didn't say any more than what you said, I enjoyed last night, thank you. But later when he was complaining about a few things I do (not closing the bathroom door when I get up in the middle of the night to pee, and not seeing the deoderant for 2 days that fell on the bathroom floor to pick it up - he left it there purposely to see if anyone would pick it up) and I said, with a smile, since you're on a roll, is there anything else bothering you? and he said no, is there anything bothering you that I'm doing. I said no, except if maybe you could just come to bed with me one night a week. and then that's what set him off, with how the comment made him feel stupid. I don't know. He just got up, came downstairs, looked at me on the computer and said "hmpf" and walked away. I get the feeling that he doesn't like me on this board. I've explained that it's a christian based marriage support discussion board so as to not worry him that I'm just on here flirting or something, but he still seemed ticked off. Oh, my head hurts.. but my heart hurts more!!

I couldn't help but ask him if he was mad at me for being on the computer. He said he didn't care what I do but he thinks it's rediculous that I cause such a huge deal out of wanting him to come to bed with me, then when he does, I'm up on the computer. I explained that I had a really bad headache, and laid there for awhile tossing and turning, but didn't want to wake him, so came downstairs until the tylonal kicked in a little. Still just acted furious. Then he asked if there were men on this board. Very jealous, which means he still cares, but this is all very similiar to the behavior that caused us so many problems the first two months of our marraige.. extreme jealousy, almost irrational reasoning, no way to solve any dispute because instead of working together to constructively solve a problem, he resorts to "I don't care what you do", so there can be no comprimise, just more anger. This was getting better with counseling, how to fight fair etc, but this was truly back to square one. Oh, I'm so frustrated and angry and am truly starting to not care!

"I couldn't help but ask him"

I think you're more honest than that. You can stop yourself. Yes, we slip. But don't cover it with a lie to yourself. You're more worthy than that. You wanted to see what he would say--and you got it. It hurt. Then he told you he hurt--did what you wanted and you didn't stay in bed. He didn't know why and asked you sideways.

Let him act furious. Know you aren't causing it. He can be furious. That's okay. That's his own. Respect that. Very jealous...your judgment or his statement?

Assuming he still cares because you assume he's jealous. Oh, Sutherland...you sweet, lovable woman. Why are those two assumptions a truth? I was hugely jealous not because I cared, but because I was insecure. I feared being replaced, made second best or last place. That's mine. Not because I cared.

He's communicating with you and that's because he cares. He loves. He loves you. And he's bound up with his own fears and furious about it. He felt very capable and in control taking care of you--you could be the messed up one, shredding his heart. Now, you're growing on your own, bit by bit. Does he feel lost, what's his role? If he sees himself as the caretaker, who is he without a patient? A job? Another baby on the way and a wife who loves him after he screwed up?

He's communicating. Please listen. You're not back at square one; you're feeling the old routines kick in. It happens. Doesn't mean you went backward. Means you haven't gotten to fair as much as you had thought.

You have the power to feel anger instead of love. Doesn't mean love ain't there. You do care. Be honest. This hurt. You had your part. He had his. But you both are sharing tough stuff. He came to bed and then held himself away. Rejection. But he came to bed--a compromise rejection. Do you want this man to be your H or fill all your expectations? To do what you want in the way you want it?

Hope your headache is better. And I feel for you having to show your daughter the path to grieving death. It is part of what parents do, but I had to do it alone, also, when two friends of my sons were killed by a train. Another action you can point to for yourself that you did, and do, and that you're not defective. You're brave and strong and a true Mom. Leave your H out of this. Do not allow yourself to hold that resentment from his absence. Please.

See, you can help yourself.

LA

Thank you La, for more insight into my own very murky physche! No wonder I don't understand him very well, when I'm practically a mystery to myself. So what do I do tonight?? I'm not at all sure how to act, and really secondguessing any intuition about how maybe I should act. Do pretend that nothing happened? Do I apologize? Do I act standoffish? I'm leaning towards not apologizing because he really seem to lose respect for me when I do. But that's what I desperately want to do, is throw myself at his feet and say I'm so sorry for screwing everything up and for asking for more than you're ready to give. Can we please just go back to where we were the night before last?? Being standoffish is my second thing that would come naturally, because anger helps me get through the pain, and it also usually gets the most results from him. But I may have pushed him beyond that. Acting like nothing happened is the hardest thing in the world to me, so maybe that's what I should do. It seems to be how he usually wants to deal with things, which won't really help much in the long run, but maybe it will at least get us to the next MC appt. I don't know.. most of all I just want to go to bed and sleep. I'm so exhausted and still have a headache, but the house is in disarray and that's one of the things that bugs him more than anything, and I know the last thing we need is for him to come home from work, and already be in a bad mood because of a messy home. Oh, how I wish that I had a husband who could come home to a mess (not a disaster, just a few dishes, and a pile of laundry) and just say, oh sweetie, you must have been really tired today, I'm glad you took a nap. Hey, how's your headache? Would you like me to rub your neck? Yea, yea, yea, I know.. that's a total fantasy. And you're right about the golden rule getting us in a lot of trouble because that's how I would react to coming home to him and a mess, so in my dream world it's not all that farfetched to have someone treat me that way. But that's not real.. man, growing up is hard to do! I know I'm just rambling, sorry. Thanks again for everything... {{{{{LA}}}}}

:::rubbing Sutherland's neck instead of hitting her over the head::: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, recognizing is a huge step in the right direction. How you ended your posting is where you begin with tonight. You do clean up enough; that's your act of love and understanding. You don't feel resentment because you know you are choosing to show your love and it does feel good. You decide...could the cleaning up in spite of what you'd rather do be your amends? You hurt, you're tired and not clear on what to do. Recognition. Super great.

Don't ask how you should...do anything. You are honest with yourself--first inclination is into the throes of remorse and apology. Focus on that and find out why that is your first compulsion. Then congratulate yourself on not doing it. Second, standoffish, which I call, withdrawal. Feels good to pull back, away from what you see as the source of your pain. But is it? Your mea culpa seems like your own shame is the source of pain. Withdrawing doesn't help that, does it? Well, maybe protects you from adding more shame to it. But you don't do either of these because of HIS usual reaction to them. And maybe it feels like a fighting back...a kick to a shin by removing yourself for the present.

You shouldn't do the shoulds in life because of the reaction they might or might not get. There's nowhere to stand with that. It's all guesswork. You must do that which holds to your own code of conduct.

"Acting like nothing happened is the hardest thing in the world to me, so maybe that's what I should do."

Third choice and what you're leaning towards. Why is it the hardest? To not react is the most difficult? What does it feel like when someone doesn't react to you? Is it horrible? Painful? Is that because you're doing/saying stuff to get a certain reaction, and none at all really bites?

I'm curious.

What if doing nothing at all is recognition that what is, is. What if doing nothing, no planning, acting, or controlling, is the actual acceptance that you're in the present and what comes, comes. What if doing nothing is monumentally doing the best you can by letting go all of your manipulations and just looking at reality as it unfolds? Like hearing silence after too loud music? Like feeling clean when you walk outside after a downpour? What if just taking in whatever happens, being, is enough for right now?

You ramble all over here, if you want, Sutherland. Rambling still gets people somewhere. Maybe not where they thought they were going.

LA

Ok, so the only thing I know that would show my love for him, in a way that he understands and accepts, is to clean up the house. So that's what I will do. In being true to myself, I still want to apologize but am afraid to because I don't want him to be disgusted with me, which is what happens when I cry and if I apologize, I'm pretty sure I'll start crying. But all that is still based on what I think he reaction will be. So instead I need to do what I need to do, while trying to avoid the obvious, known LB's, like crying and fighting. Is that right? Is that what you're saying?

Crying isn't an LB in my book. However, my H felt it was...his perspective was that it was manipulative and offensive. He doesn't now. There's hope. Of course, I stopped a lot of my crying.

You cleaning up the house IS your apology. Still holds to your code. Give yourself the grace of redemption for this. You will screw up. You don't always need his validation by way of him accepting your apology. Sometimes, we apologize and leave it at that. Bigger things, maybe not.

This helps. You're getting it. As you clean, think of your code. What are the standards you will not allow yourself to do to others? Think about them. Write them down. They come from your beliefs. They may change as you sort through your beliefs.

Do this and come back. You may feel like crying from shame. That's okay. Would it help to know that you're feeling shame because you didn't act up to the level of your own expectation. Is that expectation too high? Do you think you should act perfectly, every time, or not deserve love?

Just thoughts for while you do dishes and fold laundry. Hug your kids (which I know you do) and know that these life lessons for you are the very best lessons (more than homeschooling, even) for them, too.

You can do this, toots. You're doing it.

Hugs,
LA

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.. I feel some relief from just cleaning up the kitchen and starting to prepare dinner. Just knowing that I'm preparing it with love for him in my heart helps me not hurt so much from trying to hold it in when he's around. Our kids are all at their other parents houses tonight so it's just him and I. A year ago, it would have been such a romantic evening, now.. I don't know. I just know I still love him so much, and I can see from looking closer at his actions that he is showing love for me, just maybe not the way I recognize or prefer, but he does love me. Thank you for helping me see this. I'm starting on the family room now, folding laundry and thinking about watching the Broncos game with him tonight. I'm breathing, thinking about my standards, and feeling shame too, for how I've bypassed and made light of his feelings, just because I didnt' understand them. Because it wasn't how I thought he "should" feel. Oh, what a web we weave..

You are so very welcome. I delight in the peace that is in you with each realization. I had to respond because I, too, am going to watch the Broncos now with my H. It might be him watching and me snoozing. But it will be together.

You can feel the shame, but let it sit lightly. It's been a deep part of you for a really long time. It's not your mother or a guiding force. It just is. Good on the breathing, recognizing what you did, is the freshest step to not doing it. No punishment required, 'k?

Weaving it was easy...unravelling is hard!!!

With you all the way,
LA