Sutherlandgirl,
I blew a fuse last month -- more than 3 1/2 years after the affair was exposed. You know what my H said to me after the affair was exposed? "I had an affair because you ignored me."

Oh really? One of the things he was doing was singing in the church choir. I was so desparate for time with him that we went to church in the same car with all four kids (a six minute ride each way) so that we could be together that short time. The cost to me was spending an extra hour with the kids in the church's nursery before church began because choir practiced before church.

This man was having an affair and broke his wife's arm while he was singing in the church choir.

What I realized is that I had to change. He thought I'd settle down after the affair was exposed. I was miserable being abandoned with the kids. I was miserable. At least with an affair, I had something to point to that could justify my misery. With neglect, I did not.

See if you can get agreement for him to spend time alone with you. Forget about the affair. The affair is the result of neglect. This, by the way, runs counter to Harley's philosophy.

I went into therapy two months after the affair began, and the IC basically told me to build my own life, work on myself, care for the children, and "cordially ignore" him. That sounds like what you are trying to do: "I've pulled back, started working on myself, and my goals in life." It is so degrading to have your husband come home from work and snarl: "Leave me alone" and go read the paper.

What I finally did in December was give an ultimatum -- spend 15 hours per week alone with me or move out. That was after two years of trying to encourage him to spend time with me. I was very much at the end of my rope. If you can possibly encourage your H to spend time with you, that would be better: I need you. I want to spend time with you.

There was abuse. There was infidelity. I think the main problem in our marriage was neglect. Simple neglect. It's like diabetes: it kills you inch by inch.

Cherished

I just got off the phone with my H. The only time we get to talk in during his 20 minute drive to work, when he's on his cell phone. And that's only 2 times a week when he's not carpooling. He said he thinks I'm being selfish because I still would prefer him to work the day shift instead of nights. It wouldn't give us any more waking time together than we have now, but at least he'd be there next to me, sleeping at night. I didn't bring this up, he did. When he asked how I was feeling about the shift he's working, if I'm feeling better about it, I did answer truthfully. I said that I miss him at night and I'm not sure I'll ever get used to sleeping alone at night, but I'm trying. He said if I'm trying, then why do I hound him all the time about switching. Then very calmly, yet lovingly, I tried to get him to reason on what he just said. Because I have only ONCE talked to him about changing shifts, the other 3 or 4 times I've talked to him were about him coming to bed with me on 1 of his nights off, and only at 2 or 3 in the morning at that. He finally admitted that I wasn't hounding him about switching and that he had been the one to call me and bring it up. I did ask him how much time he thought a married couple should spend together in order to have a healthy marriage and he didnt' answer. As it is, we spend about 1 hour a week, just with each other talking. Nothing romantic, but talking without interuptions, usually about his day at work. So yes, I think that our marriage suffers from neglect. I think it would be easier to be understanding about the shifts he works if it was the only thing available, but instead he chooses that shift. He likes the guys, and... I'm not sure what else. And he see's me as being selfish for not being 100% thrilled. But then he got to work, so our 10 minute conversation was over. Your're right, neglect is like diabetes, and it's killing me inch by inch.

This is not Harley approved advice. This is my advice from my own experience.

Whether he is having an affair or not, he is neglecting you. Address the neglect that you see, not the affair you may or may not expose, the affair that may or may not be.

Tell him this is about you. It's not that you are being selfish. It's that you can't cope. You need him. You married him for a romantic relationship, not for any other reason, and you can't have a relationship with him if you never spend time with him.

I really have only one bit of advice. Think about what my husband said to me: "I had an affair because you ignored me."

In your H's mind, you may be ignoring him because you are willing to tolerate neglect. What that means is that you need to demonstrate that you are not willing to tolerate neglect. In other words, you need to be in a position to and willing to separate and divorce if he simply neglects you. Simple neglect is so incredibly demeaning. In retrospect, it was worse than the abuse or the infidelity for me. "I don't care" were the last words he spoke before he broke my arm. "I don't care" is the tag line of a neglectful spouse.

Cherished

It seems like "I don't care" comes out of his mouth constantly. When I ask what I can do to help meet his needs, he replies "I don't care what you do". When I tell him my opinion, respectfully and calmly, lovingly, or even tearfully, my needs or feelings, he responds "I don't care. If I did, I'd have asked" I'm not currently in a position to separate from him. But I am working towards that goal sometime this fall. Because I have to approach this with him from a position of power, not with him holding all the cards. I think that's the whole point with Harley's and MB though, is that for it to work, both people have to care! They have to care about meeting each others needs, and if they do, than MB gives us wonderful tools to use to figure out those needs and how to fill them. But if one person doesn't care enough about the relationship, than you have no common ground to start from. I know that what you are telling me, and Loving Anyway are saying, are essentially the same things. That I have to figure out what my boundaries are, and what my standards for treating others are. Then I have to work out some consequences for myself and others, for crossing those boundaries, and then be in a position (physically, emotionally, and financially) to follow through on those consequences. If my boundaries are simply to not hit me or cheat on me (sexually) than why should he stop short of anything less than those. Because I am basically sending him the message that it's ok to treat me badly and neglect my feelings, as long as he doesn't cross either of those two lines. I wonder though if it's just something that when I'm ready, I give him an ulitmatum about, or do I throughout the next 6 months or so, continue to let him know how I'm feeling, that I'm not happy with the situation. So that he won't feel like I'm just springing it on him out of the blue. So he'll know, well, she has been telling me this for a while now. Now it's down to the wire though, I either take some action to spend some time with her, or else it's over. What do you think? How is it going with your ultimatum?

"I don't care what you do".

When I have said this in my life, it was usually when I cared terribly, felt helpless and meant that I didn't deserved to be cared about.

Believing this, when my H said it, was my choice. I didn't know I could choose not to believe this.

How is your H with your children right now?

"continue to let him know how I'm feeling, that I'm not happy with the situation."

Sharing what you are thinking and feeling, using the "I feel" and "I believe" statements comes from your standards, not from his reaction to your statements. If you want to be an authentic person, one who acts to your code, this is why you do it. Not so he won't be clueless when your plans come together...you want to be authentic for the rest of your life, not dependent on the response.

LA

"I don't care what you do".

When I have said this in my life, it was usually when I cared terribly, felt helpless and meant that I didn't deserved to be cared about.


I would never have thought to decode those words in this way! I just thought, I dont' care means I don't care. I know that he feels undeserving of me loving him many times, but I don't know how to show him in ways that he is able to accept. I have been letting him know how I feel, not sure of the reasons. Partly to hear myself say it, to reaffirm in myself how I really feel. But he has been asking me if it's getting any easier with him working nights, and when I answer him truthfully that no, it's still very hard for me to fall asleep without him there, and I'm not sure that I will ever get used to it, at least not and be happy about it. He gets mad when I tell him this, like maybe I'm disagreeing with his plans for our life just to be difficult, but then I asked him tonight "you don't really want me to lie to you, do you?" and he said no, of course not. So part of why I tell him though is so that he has the knowledge to make decisions in him own life. Part of why the Harley's advocate radical honesty is so that the mate can make informed decisions, really truly knowing how each decision will affect the other. Yes, POJA is a great idea, but not one you can do solely on your own. But radical honesty can be achieved all by yourself.

Glad the decoding ring is working. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Next step...

"I know that he feels undeserving of me loving him many times, but I don't know how to show him in ways that he is able to accept."

He feels undeserving. That's his domain, not yours. Know that you are demonstrating your love actively, intimately and you can't make him accept anything. You only own your part. He has his.

"I have been letting him know how I feel, not sure of the reasons."

I have been urging you to know your reasons because they are critical to understanding yourself and acting from your code, not for the purpose of manipulation (to get a result you want). Also, knowing your emotions, each a seperate piece of information about your beliefs, is just as important. See, it is like you're on this journey of self-discovery, and you give him updates on it. That removes him as the cause, control and cure for you. You own that you can only cure yourself. He's off the hook. He can breathe and look to his own stuff--or not. That's the respect I've been harping on. Sorry, just feeling futile. I'm not good at this stuff, really.

"Partly to hear myself say it, to reaffirm in myself how I really feel." This is a great reason. You're part of the way there.

Another sidestep:

"But he has been asking me if it's getting any easier with him working nights, and when I answer him truthfully that no, it's still very hard for me to fall asleep without him there, and I'm not sure that I will ever get used to it, at least not and be happy about it."

He asked you...he said he would ask if he cared. Hmmm. He does, huh? Okay...well, you answered him by saying, no, it is still very difficult. That is reasonable, workable and honest. Had you stopped there, I doubt he would have been angry. In fact, if you had added, "But I'm working on falling asleep without you. I know I can do this." He would have felt relief instead of anger. When you throw your belief that you can't get used to it ever, won't ever be happy about it...well, you crush the life out of your power and his responsibility. Yeah, I'd get angry, too. Even now.

All we have is the present. All humans are limited in that way. God doesn't let us see one minute into the future for a reason. I believe that jumping ahead and declaring how you're going to feel is like locking yourself into that feeling. Your brain doesn't know time. It will hand you what you expected even it is inappropriate.

"you don't really want me to lie to you, do you?"

You are lying to him when you say you have an unreasonable belief that will doom any effort on his part to care about what you feel. You are lying to yourself with unreasonable expectations. Only you can control them.

I would even have to say that the way you phrased the question was a set up to get justification for hurting/angering him. You didn't give him the option of saying, "Yes, I do want you to lie to me." You told him what he didn't want, right? "I would be grateful to know what part of what I said made you feel defensive?" And if he gifts you with his reason, then, "Good to know."

"So part of why I tell him though is so that he has the knowledge to make decisions in him own life."

Informing him is good. Telling him he should be grateful for you not believing that you'll be happy or satisfied or able to self care appears to put that on his shoulders. His problem, not yours. There's the difference.

I keep striving to communicate you the things you do to yourself that you can help not do, as an act of self love and caring.

LA

In my situation, I think "I don't care" meant "I don't care."

The first month after giving the ultimatum was horrible -- three of our kids ended up sobbing in different situations.

But there is improvement.

"You're being selfish" means "I'm not going to address your needs."

If all you can do now is inform, then inform. I'd like us to spend time together alone. Focus on that.

Cherished

I understand what you are saying about self care. It's not that I will never be able to fall asleep without him there. It's that I don't want to get used to it. I got married to share a life, not to never see my husband. I can't control him, and I'm not trying to. But I honestly do not want to be in a marriage long term where I never see him, even at night when we are sleeping. I don't think that's an unusual expectation when you get married. I was just stating how I feel, that 6 months or a year to get used to this will only make us more alienated from each other. Maybe that won't happen, maybe we'll be even closer after a year of no time spent together and spending our nights separately, but that's not what usually happens.

Tell him, and keep telling him, that you want to spend time alone with him.
Cherished

He already feels like I hound him about spending more time together, so I've stopped saying it at all, unless he askes how I'm doing with stuff. Then I reply honestly, that I would like to spend more time with you. Then he still tries to say I'm hounding him, and I gently remind him that he asked.

I'm so frustrated and lonely and sad. I'm trying to find ways to be happier and not so lonely, without it requiring more time or affection or anything from him. I'm starting back to work partime next week, now that the new gym that hired me is finally finished construction.

He's always enjoyed me cooking for him. But today, when I asked what he was hungry for, he said don't worry about it, that he'd make himself something when he got out of the shower. He also finally chose to permanently work the night shift, despite them offering him the choice of days. I just said "Ok, I see that you've made your decision. I will try and make the best of it" Then he was also an hour and a half late home from work, and without a phone call. I had breakfast waiting and when he got here, I said that I had been worried when he hadn't answered his cell phone and he got mad. So add one more thing to the list of things I can't ask of him, a phone call if he's going to be late.

Whatever..

Are you checking his cell phone when he sleeps?

LA

Yes, but I think that he deletes stuff, because There are gaps. Like this morning he said he couldn't call me to tell me he was running late because he was on the phone the whole drive home with one of the guys he works with. But when I checked his phone, the guys he works with only called him 10 minutes before he pulled into the driveway. So that left 30 minutes of drive time that he could have used to call me, plus the 1 1/2 hours of unnaccounted for time. It's also a company phone so their secretary gets the bill, not us. Also, the story he gave me about why he was so late was because they had a big employee saftey meeting where a guy named Justin was actually fired for ignoring safety. But then one of his coworkers called while he was still asleep and I casually said, so I hear you had a pretty interesting morning meeting. He asked what meeting? I said the one where Justin was fired. He said "What?? Justin was fired this morning?? I didn't know anything about it!" So when Ted gets up and calls him back and finds out about my comments, he's furious. He tells the guy that it's still confidential and not to say anything to the other drivers. And hes so mad at me, even though I try to explain that i was under the impression that it was public knowledge since all the guys were in attendance, to which he backtracked, not all the guys, only the ones who needed to know and it was all hush hush for now, and how he can't tell me anything. I'm just speechless..

When I read His Needs/Her Needs, I told him I felt "starved for affection." He read the first chapter and said, "That describes my relationship with Sophia exactly."

Your H is what Harley calls in withdrawal. When a H is in withdrawal, he is more likely to have an affair because he doesn't want you to meet his ENs and someone else wanders into the picture who seems to be the person he should have married, thus giving him the justification to have an affair without the trouble of divorce and disturbing the kids.

Your H's neglect, and not any affair, is the problem. The problem isn't his relationship with another woman. It's his lack of a relationship with you.

When I started getting upset about this woman, I considered separation because I couldn't control my temper. He said that would just drive him to Sophia, so I stayed and endured his intermittent comments about her calling him, etc. It seems your H isn't quite so blatant. Orchid is right about fog babble. Your H has the babble. He has to make you the problem for his having an affair. If you accuse him, of course, you don't trust him, you're psychotic, etc. Think about focusing on how you need him and less than an hour a week is not enough. You married him because of a romantic relationship and that's what you need.

Cherished

I talked to him about my needs again tonight, even just an hour a day. He says I'm the most demanding person he's ever met. I have to fill my life with something besides my children and this sham of a relationship with him. I've got to get busier with work, the garden, working out, the kids, anything and everything to keep me from asking or expecting more time and attention from him, let alone sex or romance. If there is an affair, it will show itself on it's own. And since we're not having sex, I don't have to worry about STD's. But this wondering and checking on him is driving me crazy. I am being very true to myself in what I finally told him, that if he loves me and misses me, he will make time for me. Short of that, I dont' want time with him, if it takes nagging or begging or even just calmly letting him know my needs, only to have him call it hounding. I'm moving on with my life and if he comes to where he wants to put some effort into our marriage, great, maybe it will come in time to save it.

I spent about two days trying to figure out if I could stand a marriage of emotional divorce and concluded I couldn't. You ask for an hour a day, and he tells you you are the most demanding person he knows? Is that ever sad! Get him out of there. If you stay for the trappings of marriage, you will have no marriage at all. Force him to choose between a real marriage or no contact with you and limited contact with his children.

I email you because I so feel for you. Many young children and a commitment to marriage and you have a husband who ignores you. Look at those children: do you want them to be in your shoes in 30 years? If not, don't tolerate it for yourself.

Cherished

I plan on doing exactly as you describe this fall. I feel that I need to come from a position of strength. Where I'm financially able to follow through on my threats and physically too. Being now 6 months pregnant, I'm not sure I can physically think of the tremendous mental and emotional battle it will be with him, plus with earning enough to make it on my own. Of course I hope that he comes to his senses and decides he wants our marriage enough to make it a priority in his life, but if he doesn't, I am moving on. As it is, I'm not "allowed" to speak or really do anything without being accused of being manipulative, or being blamed for all our problems. I dont' do anything but wait on him hand and foot and take care of our home and children, but he expects me to do all this with no support, or love, or affection in return. And absolutely keep my mouth shut and my opinions to myself! And I don't want to be setting this example for my kids. So I have a timeline, I have given myself six months to get my life together, and then let him know once and for all, make an effort to improve our marriage, by agreeing to MC, IC,RH, POJA, avoiding LB's, and working on meeting EN's. I dont' really think he'll go for this, but at least he will have a clear choice and know that I am able to follow through.

I've been doing a lot of reading on narcissistic personality disorder and this seems to describe my H to a tee. This disorder develops in early adulthood (late teens to early twenties) and as I became close friends with him as children, no wonder I never saw it. It's possible for people with NPD to sustain friendships as long as contact is intermittant. Also, lying is probly the most predoninant feature of NPD. His lies are becoming too numerous for me to even keep track of anymore. I'm just so tired...

I'm so barely hanging on a thread here. Every moment is laced with the terror of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing. Every conversation we have is overshadowed by the gut feeling and sometimes knowledge that much of what he's saying is a lie. I miss my husbands companionship, affection, love, and touch, yet at the same time, I'm starting to recoil at the very thought of any contact with him, because it's so painful. I can't sleep, I don't want to eat, even though I force myself to for the sake of the baby. I'm racked with insecurities about starting my new job next week, even though it's something I've done for years, so why is it so overwhelming to me now? I so desperately need a hug, a little backrub, maybe a cup of tea, just to know someone cares enough to spend the 20 minutes it would take to show me some compassion..

Sutherlandgirl,

My IC did MC with us and told me that she thought my H was a narcissist. I've come to the conclusion that NPD is nothing more than immaturity. What better way to continue being immature than to marry someone who is committed to marriage and that is an overriding value. Overriding alright. Overriding self-respect. Your tolerance of his neglect enables him to continue to not grow up.

It's confusing because you think you are being demanding because you are asking for something and is it really necessary? Are you really the person with the problem, the person who is needy? At least that's what I went through.

I remember one morning that my H was going to the bank on his way to work. We had a medical reimbursement check so I asked if he could deposit it as long as he was going to the bank. He exploded in anger at me. That's your responsibility. I said, "But you're going to the bank anyway." You know what? He was going through the ATM line to get cash, and it would take longer for him to go through the teller line to deposit a check. His response was basically, "How dare you even ask." I was confused. I wasn't upset or angry. I was confused. Such a violent and offended reaction when all I did was ask if he could deposit a check as long as he was going to the bank. I remember later that day driving to the bank, just puzzled.

One thing I wish I had done was write down what I ask and then write down his response. After the affair was exposed, I did that for therapy, and it helped me. Now I can look back and it is just so obvious why the IC did MC and why she recommended a long-term separation. I couldn't see it at the time, but I can now.

Keep asking. Keep saying, "I want you to care about me...
I want to spend time with you... " Even if the response is negative, you have tried. You've given him a chance to see you as a separate human being with needs of your own.

Cherished