Whack, whack, whack! It's time to find the empowered hoopsie. It's time for hoopsie to open a can of whoop a$$. I'm sure Melodylane can find you a Texas-sized one.

You probably feel that you've been beating your head against a wall for the last year. So have I. WH doesn't live with us, doesn't see the kids, his parents seem to feel like it's my fault but have I given up? NO!

Don't be reading skewed statistics and studies like they are the word of God. Maybe little Ms. lostloves.com is trying to justify HER behavior.

Just what do you know?

-Your WH is a liar and a cheater.

-OW is a liar and a cheater.

-There has been a lot of water under the bridge since high school. Age does not make you more mature. People DO grow in different directions, expecially if they haven't been in contact.

-Can you say "Honeymoon period?" What kind of relationship is phone calls and infrequent weekend visits? This is fantasy land. Relationships are doing laundry together, discussion how you spend your money, caring for somebody when they've got the nasty flu, waking up in each other's arms every day not just stolen weekends in fancy hotels. It's having children together and sticking around to help raise the children, not going to the next adventure.

-You have not exposed enough. How much you want to bet that your WH, when he self-exposes himself, adds the addendum, "And my wife know about it and she doesn't care...."

-Children are seriously affected by divorce. They don't just grow up and get over it. Read those statistics. There have been many scientific, correctly done studies done on children of divorce. The data doesn't just come from people answering a call from the Internet. Divorce sucks for kids. It's something that your WH cannot tap dance around.

Hoopsie, get off your butt. Expose, expose, expose. It doesn't matter that OW divorced. Her parents need to know. If OW and WH did hook up, her parents will always have in the back of their minds that this is a dishonorable union.

Any idea why they broke up in high school? Maybe she had another boyfriend she liked more. Who knows, maybe that one will be the next one to find her. Cheaters always cheat again.

Have you done everything you can to save your marriage? BE STRONG!

bump

***He asked for a divorce knowing that it meant he is effectively finished as a father, and he asked for it anyway.***

No, he DOESN'T know this. This is what you must understand and we are desperately trying to get across to you.

He is living in LaLa Land. How do we know? Because dumping his kids and seeing them only a few times a year suddenly sounds like a reasonable idea to him. Does it sound like a reasonable idea to you, or to any other parent you know?

Was he a good dad before this? Was he involved in the children's lives?

What do the children have to say about all this? What are they saying, feeling, doing? Do they know what he proposes to do?

Hoopsie, you seem to think your WH is thinking rationally and knows exactly what he is doing. He Does Not.

I guarantee you - his vision of the future is totally different from yours.

You (and we) can clearly see the misery he is already visiting on his family and how it will only gets worse.

WH, however, really thinks that the kids will adjust, that he can waltz in and out of their lives whenver he wants and they'll be fine and happy with it, that he and Hoopsie will be friends, that Hoopsie will just stay single and do nothing but care for the kids and pine after WH, and that he will always have TWO women who want him and meet his ENs -- Hoopsie for domestic support (and no doubt conversation and admiration once you've adjusted to the situation) and Adoring Sex Queen for sex and admiration.

Sounds outrageous, doesn't it?

Of couse it does. It IS outrageous. But I can guarantee you that your WH honestly thinks something like this will happen.

You need to pin him down on the details and cold hard reality of the separation and the divorce.

Tell him how the kids are feeling now and what they feel about his abandonment of them (yes, use words like "abandonment." He doesn't see it that way, but as I said, cold hard reality is your best friend right now. USE IT!!!)

Make sure he understands that you WILL NOT be his friend and pal after the divorce because you do not need or want friends who lie to you, cheat on you, abandon you and abandon their children.

Mention the fact that you do not want your children to grow up without a father and if he abandons (there's that word again) them as he says he's going to do, you sincerely hope you can meet a good man before long who WILL be there to be a father to them and doesn't intend to show up just a few times a year. They need someone to call "Daddy" and since he is leaving, well, someone else is needed to fill in. Sorry he just didn't feel like staying around.

Stuff like this, Hoopsie. Cold hard facts to start busting up the fantasy he's got in his head of what life will be like when he gets his magic divorce.

And like the others here say, for pete's sake STOP BELIEVING WHAT HE SAYS. They DO all lie and they do it to keep you from interfering in their affair. And as long as you keep backing down from contacting his family, friends and co-workers to make sure they know the whole sordid truth, it's working, isn't it?
Mulan

I've told him all of this until I'm blue in the face! Do you think I haven't?? I've told him this, his mother has told him this, our friends have told him this!

Me: "Do you realize that you will be effectively finished in the father relationship?"
Him: "Yes. The kids and I will have a relationship, but it will not be a parental one. More like the way you feel with your grandparents or an uncle you see for a few weeks a year. I'm okay with that."

Me: "Do you realize I may get remarried?"
Him: "Yes. I will continue the alimony payments even if you get remarried b/c I want to make sure you have enough money for the children."

Me: "Do you realize that man may be the father figure?"
Him: "Yes. I trust you would remarry a good man. It will hurt me to see my girls raised by another man, but it is the price I am willing to pay to be with for my true love."

Me: "Do you realize I may not want to talk to you, give you chatty updates about the kids, etc.?"
Him: "Yes, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't. I understand I've hurt you, and you should treat me however you want."

Me: "Do you realize your daughters may scorn you when they realize you betrayed and left their mother when they were very young?"
Him: "Yes, I realize that. I hope you will not badmouth me to them, but I will own my failures as a father and husband to them. I hope they could forgive me one day and we could have a relationship."

Me: "What if that doesn't happen?"
Him: "I think it will. Even if it's not when they are kids or teens, we would probably have a relationship as adults. I would always call them, talk to them, etc., as much as you and they would allow."

Me: "Do you realize your friends may drop you because of this?"
Him: "Yes. I hope they don't, but if they do they do."

Me: "Do you realize your family is terribly pained by this?"
Him: "Yes, however I am not going to live my life for my mother. Or my friends. Or, ultimately, my children. I need to make my own decisions about my personal happiness."

We are in our mid-30s. Our friends all have young children like us and are good, devoted parents. Before this affair, he was a good father. All of our friends I have talked to about this say, "Geez, I can understand divorce I guess, but I can't understand how he would leave his kids like this. Wow."

Our 5yo is old enough to understand. She cries when he leaves after visitiation now, she sleeps with a picture of him sometimes. It would break my friggin' heart if I were in an affair,but does it move him? No, at least not enough to break it off.

He KNOWS the vision of the future. Knowing it and actually living it are two different things, of course, but from his vantage point now he's come to terms with it and seen it as the price he's willing to pay.

All of the above just shows you how addicted he is. Think of a heroin addict and how they will lose everything for a fix.

The affair will not last.

I hope that you will make a good life for you and your children.

***Knowing it and actually living it are two different things, of course***

Exactly. None of it has actually happened yet. It's still all an abstract fantasy in his head.

Read some of the other stories here. Many, many WS said the same stuff yours is and were smugly sure it would all be fine, but were absolutely shocked when it REALLY STARTED TO HAPPEN.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that Plan B is just giving him what he wants by "getting out of his way." It's not. It's a preview of how his life would REALLY be if he gets the divorce he thinks he wants.

Believe me, he will go nuts when he suddenly knows NOTHING of what you are doing and you are suddenly no longer begging him to stay in your life and the kid's lives. And his anxiety and distraction will start causing trouble in Paradise. And will start to interfere with his affair.

Remember, he thinks you and the kids are always going to be sitting around waiting for him and that he has full control of this situation. Plan B takes the control away from him and gives it all to you.

To the other posters here: Would going to Plan B *now* give Hoopsie's WH something of a preview of the future and help to start busting up the affair?
Mulan

I'll be leaving town soon and will have very little contact with him, more for my own peace of mind than for a strategy. I will reiterate my feelings before we go.

You know, on the one hand WH has done many of the classic things -- the "ILYBNILWY" thing, the hours and hours on the phone with the OW every night (which he says is how often you speak to someone you now think of as your wife; everyone who is really a wife rolls their eyes at that one), the hot weekend trysts, the airing of some grievances against me.

On the other hand, it might be easier if he seemed like some of the real a$$es I've read about here -- not paying the bills, getting emotional with me, immediately shacking up with the OW, ignoring the kids, etc. Those people are headed for a crash and burn.

But my H feels guilty. He has self-loathing over his weakness and selfishness. He is sorry for hurting me. He says "I've treated you very unfairly. You didn't deserve any of this." He knows he has behaved badly in the eyes of the family, community, God. He knows he's hurting the kids. He knows he won't be blissfully happy all the time when bills and laundry pile up. But he's doing it anyway because he loves someone else and wants to be with HER through the laundry and bills and all the rest of life's ups and downs. Not me or the kids. And that is what makes me feel so sad.

Hoopsie,

I have been lurking on your thread but have hesitated to post to you because I am in the process of divorcing my WH.

I feel that our sitches are so very similar! You may not agree - my STBX did not leave me for an 'old flame', but for someone he works with and has known about three years, but apart from that almost everything he's said has been identical (except he hasn't said sorry for hurting me, because he is convinced that what he has done is 'best for everyone' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ).

I am in an unofficial 'plan B' - 'unofficial' because I am out of contact with STBX, but no longer wish to save my marriage. The NC element is for my protection/healing only. I never sent him any letter, and I'm not attempting to shake him off any fence (he was never on the fence, truth be told - he vaulted that fence and is now so far away in the next field I can't even see him any more!). Please note that I am not advocating doing an unofficial plan B in your case - you still have the desire (and the chance) to save your marriage, and I don't.

The things you wrote in your last post about the children and your WH's future relationship with them really moved me. When STBX first left, he was quite happy for the kids to leave the country with me (I have relatives abroad) and for him never to see them again (this was from, like your WH, a previously devoted father who would have died for his kids). I am considering moving away from here after the divorce is final to be nearer my family. I suffer from IBD (Crohn's) which has got a lot worse since STBX left, and could do with a better support network than I presently have. STBX is happy enough to let his kids go - he wants to make a new family with the OW. He does still love them, but not enough to end his A and make them his first priority. There's never been any sign of him ending the A, and I'm not waiting for it to happen any longer.

I do worry that the children will blame me if I move away. STBX has made me out to be 'unreasonable' and accused me of selfishness for wanting to make a new life for myself and the children without him, but he won't try and stop me. I need support, and I don't want the OW to be part of my children's lives. They have recently met her, against my wishes.

I don't really have much advice to offer you, but I don't see that things are as hopeless as you think. At least you still have dialogue with your WH. One of my main problems when STBX left was that I was so hurt and angry I couldn't talk to him at all any more, and my plan A pretty much sucked. I would have been so grateful for a tenth of your poise and self-possession!

All I can say is - live your life for yourself and your children. Everyone told me that when I first came to MB, and when I was finally able to pick myself up and start doing it, I found that life is still good after all.

You sound like you will be OK and will live a good and happy life whether your WH comes out of the fog or not.

Perhaps that's the best advantage you have.

Blessings.

Alph.

Hoopsie -- All of your WH's grand plans depend fully on his expectation that you will just quietly and meekly go along with everything he wants. As I said, he thinks he has all the power and control here and you seem to think so, too.

That's not true.

First -- if you don't want a divorce, and you have said here that you don't, then DON'T GIVE HIM ONE. Make HIM do every bit of the work and spend every penny of the money. Tell WH that you don't do divorce - you only do marriage. Drag your feet and do nothing. You are NOT obligated to help WH destroy your family. Don't let him threaten you and don't let him scare you. Protect yourself. Stop dancing to his tune.

Second - please consider a real Plan B. Take the control away from WH and the ASQ (Adoring Sex Queen) and get it back yourself. You have far more power here than you know, if you would just stop assuming that you don't.
Mulan

Okay, I think I must be really thick -- but what does this mean in practical terms? WH said two months ago, "I want a divorce. I want to be with OW." I said, "I won't discuss divorce, I'll discuss marriage." He said, "Okay, I had hoped we could do this together, but I'm afraid I'll have to file without you then." And he DID. He did all the work. He met with a divorce financial adviser. He drafted all the papers. He collected all the documents.

I was happy to be patient, ride it out, keep the faith, etc., before he filed but now I have a responsibility to my children to protect them and myself financially. If I do nothing and drag my feet, I'll end up in court in a few months with nothing but a pretty smile on my face. Unfortunately, in our court system if one party wants a divorce they will eventually be able to get it. I can't call the courthouse and pretend to be him and withdraw the filing; that is an *action* that he will have to take.

And in the meantime, Harley recommends in Plan B that the spouse move away and stop contact, right? (although I'm surprised the move-away option is there for most couples) That's what I will be doing soon. That's the only thing I CAN do, that and get the best settlement I can. I honestly don't know what else I can do. Help?

Hoopsie,

I have just read your thread.....

quote:-----------------------------------------------------
......But he's doing it anyway because he loves someone else and wants to be with HER through the laundry and bills and all the rest of life's ups and downs. Not me or the kids.
-----------------------------------------------------------

...hate to be pointing out the obvious.... but here it goes.... that's what he SAYS now..... the reality of LIVING it may be slightly different... you can be sure of that!

.....you won't really know until it plays out..... are you patient enough? Is keeping your family together worth a shot?

No one here will tell you what you want to hear.... that your M doesn't have a chance.... because we don't know....

...but it may be so if you don't want to fight for it (as you have every right not to).....but it should NOT be based on what your WS SAYS to you..... should be based on what YOU want...on want you think is important to you... don't sell out to your WS!

I think the mistake you are making (the same one I did, and soooooo many others BS do) is to seriously CONSIDER what WS 'SAYS'.... just like we are used to doing..... but with a WS it does not work....cannot COUNT on anything they say.... they want the 'fix' of their fantasyland.... and will SAY ANYTHING to get it..... and the easiest way is to have a BS NOT FIGHTING for marriage.... taking D quietly... and a WS can be very convincing... right!?

.....if you read over some of the posts.... you will notice that many are saying the same thing.... (each one of us in their particular way, of course) and we will continue to say the same thing until you have at least 'heard' us.... (we are a stubborn bunch!)... and then decide what you want to do anyway....

....DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOUR WS IS TELLING YOU..... DO NOT TRY TO MAKE SENSE OUT ANYTHING YOUR WS IS TELLING YOU.... (but please don't tell him that because it will only give him another reason to leave you....)

.....believe me Hoopsie....I am talking from experience...I was a really 'slow' one at getting this....and I do believe I drove some 'regulars' to practically turn blue in the face.... but no one gave up on me....thank God!

...at the stage he is at.... ANYTHING your WS says to you should go in one ear and out the other... because it's meant to be used to do whatever it takes to have you go 'quietly'.... no fuss... no mess...

...WS can manipulate into doing what it takes to facilitate something you don't want.... the end of your M!.....and it sounds like he's doing a pretty good job so far....

unless it is really what YOU want...

Please realize HOOPSIE that for the next little while..... you will have to dig deep for strength and courage...to do what needs to be done... whatever you decide...

If you say your WS feels guilty..... than nothing will make things easier for him than to have your PERMISSION to go ahead...since he's doing a good job of convincing you that there is no HOPE for the M..... don't give it to him if you don't want to...of course, this will not stop him from leaving if it's what HE wants to do.... but it will have to be knowing that it's NOT WHAT YOU WANT..... already that was not part of the plan, believe me!

Poise and self-possession. Ha, ha, that's a good one. If you knew how many 4 a.m. sobbing phone calls -- heck, 4 a.m. sobbing *tipsy* phone calls -- I have made to friends and family, you would be aghast. They say if you want to know someone's character, break up with them. Unfortunately, my true colors were not as strong and independent and emotionally tough as I might have liked.

The only reason WH was talking to me at all was because he felt a certain amount of concern, guilt, and pity for me. That well is rapidly drying up, and he would be just as happy to not talk to me anymore.

I don't feel all guilty about moving away. If he's going to leave me a single mother to several small children, then I need all the support I can get.

You know, it's heartening -- my parents and his parents and everyone of that generation has told me, "Honey, he thinks what he wants now is sooo important, he has to do it sooo quickly, he can't wait to dump you and the kids and go to this exciting new life. But all the needs and problems that seem so desperately important at 36 are barely remembered at 56 and you start to regret the impulsivity and selfishness of your youth."

I think time is a good healer for everyone (although with my luck, I'll get hit by a bus tomorrow and then he gets the kids and the OW!)

hoopsie,

I guess YOU could quit feeling pity for yourself, since your H should be supplying enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Isn't it time for you to quit complaining about bogus "science" research. Quit complaining about how he will have a great time in his life. Quit worrying about what he says AND do the following.

1. Make sure all that he is promising you is IN writing, and that means YOU see a lawyer.

2. Make sure since he wants to give up the kids so easily, that he pays fully for child support, you obtain full custody, and his visitation is as YOUR convenience.

3. Make sure you get spousal support if you are entitled to it, and realize he doesn't have a choice about child support, so his comment about supporting you even if you remarry is a log of ****.

4. Make sure when his OW realize how much he is paying out in support, that she cannot talk him into reneging on what is truely do you.

In short, you are not preparing to succeed you are preparing to fail. YOu won't heed the advice of the people here, many of which have been where you are and have successfully recovered their marriage. You won't heed the advice of those that have indeed gone through divorce. You only want to hear what you agree with, all the while saying you don't know what to do or think.

Could all of this be a manifestation of the problems in your marriage? Possibly. What I would suggest is protect yourself legally, and start to learn about what you contributed to the failing of this marriage so that you can achieve the very best thing... A LIFE WELL LIVED. Your children are depending you to do this, and I think you need to prepare to do it.

Please listen to the folks that have been posting to you, you will not regret it. You will regret living your life with negativity, and not having done all you could to save this marriage. You will regret not preparing to enjoy and thrive in a new relationship if that is indeed what happens, and you regret not showing your children how to get through the tough times and MAKE the good times happen.

From this point on, YOUR life is what you make it. Start to plan to succeed.

God Bless,

JL

Ack, some people are saying drag your feet and do nothing and some people are saying get a lawyer and protect yourself.

I do have a lawyer to whom I have paid many thousands of dollars in a retainer. All this stuff and much more is in a settlement agreement sitting on H's atty's desk; I may be heartsick over his affair but I'm not an idiot, especially after he has officially filed for divorce. But in between the fighting over the division of the 401k that we will be doing, I am still emotional enough to be sad and sorry over the events and failings that got us to this point.

hoopsie,

I am glad that you have protected yourself. I feared given your unwillingness to address other issued, that you had not protected yourself. I am very glad that you did that.

Now, then besides worrying about them living happily ever after, what really can we do for you?

Oh, I guess I would be remiss in saying that it should be your goal as well. And interestingly you have a much higher chance of achieving this goal than your H does. One of the reasons are your children. I am sure you don't appreciate this now, but they are your contribution to the world, and you will come to realize this as they grow. You will enjoy all of the big moments in their lives and appreciate what it took to get to these moments. Your H will not. He loses no matter how happy he actually will be in this new marriage IF it occurs.

You have no idea but even if everything happens as he dreams in his fog, he will regret what he has done for the rest of his life and his family, you, your children will all KNOW what kind of man he is. He cannot run from that, no woman can take that away from him.

You on the other hand should do your best to recover the marriage IF that is your wish, but most definitely you should learn from this and make your next relationship/marriage and I suspect there will be one something that brings great joy to you AND your children.

I know you are hurting, but understand in the long run you would much rather be where you are than him. Further, this whole thing is NOT over by a long shot.

So work on you, hang in there with the pain and disappointment, and learn and learn and prepare to enjoy the things to come in your life.

God Bless,

JL

So, I'm no etiquette expert but maybe someone can help me -- is it in bad taste to create a wedding registry while you're still married to someone else? How about while your spouse thinks you're happily married to HER?

Arrgh. Sarcasm aside, I was doing some online shopping today and on a hunch entered my WS's name into a store we frequent. Sure enough, there they are! Registered for their wedding. Valentine's Day, 2007. Aww, isn't that romantic. Valentine's Day. The registry was created *before* D-day, I might add.

This is insanity. What are they thinking?? Does it ever cross their minds "Gee, perhaps I shouldn't be registering for pasta forks with my new bride WHILE I'M STILL MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE!"

hoopsie, I wondered how you were doing.

Tell the store where they are registered that he is still legally married. They might be interested. They most certainly should drop the listing.

And tell everyone else who knows him that he's done this.

Expose, expose, expose. And don't complain that everybody already knows. If they hear nothing from YOU, they will assume that THIS IS OKAY WITH YOU AND YOU DON'T CARE. THAT'S WHAT THE WS WANTS THEM TO THINK BECAUSE THEN HE CAN JUSTIFY HIS HIDEOUS ACTIONS. BUST UP THE FANTASY AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY, BIG OR SMALL!

WS's greatest weapon right now is your inertia -- your failure to act and fight back -- because, as I said, if nobody hears from you then everybody will just assume that you're okay with all this and that the WS and the OP are therefore justified in their actions.

Even *if* it doesn't save the marriage, do you really want people to think you cared so little for yourself, your marriage and your children that you would not even speak out against this horror?

Forget what you think they know about the WS and the OP. Do they know the truth about how *you* feel about all this? Or are you just keeping mum and laying low so as not to make a fuss and "keep your dignity?"

Screw dignity. This is war. You need to step up purely for your own self-respect, if for no other reason. By all means get an attorney to protect yourself and your financial and physical assets, but for your own sake and your children's sake do NOT let people think you're okay with this -- and if you don't get out there and broadcast the truth, that's what they will assume.

Please keep posting.
Mulan

But I really AM starting not to care. Not to care who knows, not to care if people approve or disapprove, not to care what he does.

I can't take this much more. Every fresh little betrayal I discover -- the wedding registry while I'm still happily doing his laundry! the photos he sent her from his phone on our family vacation while the children and I were standing a foot away! -- makes me wonder why I even want a man who has so little respect for me. I can and do have the capacity to forgive if he came begging back, but caring about a marriage that he has treated as less than dirt is starting to make me feel ... dirty in return.

Maybe he has lost his mind. Maybe he has just been swept up into an affair. Or maybe he really *is* weak. And selfish. And evil. And maybe for my own self-respect I simply need to treat him with the contempt that he deserves, which means washing my hands of him and his life and his friends.

So stop doing his laundry, happily or otherwise. What else are you still doing for him?

And send anyone who might have seen that carefully cropped picture the FULL picture.

It's true that you are late in coming to MB, but it's never too late to fight back. MB is about personal recovery as well as marriage recovery, and there can be no personal recovery without standing up and fighting for yourself and your family.

I know you're exhausted and depressed right now, but how are you going to feel about yourself in three years if you just lay down and die right now?

What will you say to your children when they ask you what happened (and they will, sooner or later.) Will you be able to say you stood up to the terrible insult being done to THEM, or will you have to say that all you could find the strength to do was try to talk WS out of it -- and when that didn't work, you just let WS and OP go their merry way and silently did his laundry right up to the last?

It's never too late to fight back. Please don't talk yourself into thinking that it is.
Mulan

CRAP

I missed my chance !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />