Traicionado, my hat is off to you. You are doing extremely well and obviously have a good head on your shoulders. Keep doing what you're doing - looks like it's working.

My roommates are from Mexico and I speak fairly good Spanish.

What you say about most of the men cheating is accurate. But a woman cheating is very, very bad. My roommates come from a very traditional part of Mexico, and I have heard them talk about such things.

It is also very bad for the family. The whole bunch of them will take it very personally.

I was raised Catholic and know all about the confession thing. Hopefully, she will go. When you are raised that way, it really does feel like it cleanses you and gives you a whole new start. I think it would help her a lot.

She probably is very down on herself. This is going against everything she believes in, and has been taught. She also may feel that you would never feel the same about her.

I feel bad for her because in Mexico, women are very sheltered. This jerk took advantage of her.

believer,

You have described my wife spot on. I do have a question about what you said of her feeling that I would never feel the same about her. Is that cultural too?

Several months ago when this was all fresh, me on my rollercoaster and her in the fog (it is still thick), this came up in one of her comments and, for some reason, it raised an alarm bell. It made me think that there might not be any hope because her feeling about my feelings might be a deal breaker. It came up again once or twice since. All I have ever said is that she does not need to worry about how I feel. That, if I am trying to R, I am doing it because it is what I want - that she needs to focus on what she wants and how she feels and nothing else. I also reminded her that I still loved her. I don't know what else to say.

Yesterday was quiet but again friendly. My feeling is that she is struggling with calling the OM. I don't think she has decided to stop. I also don't think she believes that they will stop. I think she knew she would not be able to do it yesterday and maybe, since she has no phone card, that she is not sure when she will be able to call again.

If she does start calling the OM, I am trying to make it where she cannot use a public phone. If she calls, it will have to be from a friend's house (and that would have to be explained to the friend) or from our house. My thought is that, if she does call from here, it will make it impossible to compartmentalize. It will bring the A closer to home. Is this a bad thing to do?

We all have a cold so don't feel well. I am giving her space, not forcing conversation but also holding her, hugging her, etc. I am trying to build up her "safe haven" again. Today I will try to schedule an appointment with a psych. for her and then mark it on the calendar.

BTW, I am certain I will never feel the same way about my WW as I did before. I will never forget the pain. That does not mean that I will not be able to love her. I might be able to love her more because I now know that she is not perfect. I always thought she was before. I don't know how I am going to be able to feel about her but I have not given up hope. I'll jump off that bridge when I come to it. A lot of things have to happen before that even comes on the radar screen. I am not angry with her and I have forgiven the A even though she has never asked. I won't go into that detail but my talk with the priest we secretly have here made that happen.

Well, I can't speak for your wife. I have no idea what she is thinking. I just know that in Mexico it is almost unheard of. My roommate loves his wife deeply and they have been together for 15 years. He calls her and talks to her for hours and hours.

He said that if his wife cheated, she would be out the door, WITHOUT her children. She would be disgraced in their town, and with her family. They are very harsh on women.

On the other hand, they have many protections in place. Men and women don't chat like we do here. I was at a soccer game, and one of the player's wives was there with her 3 year old. I asked one of the men to ask her if she wanted some soda and chips. He said that it would be impolite to ask her, and her husband might get mad.

My son wanted to date a neighbor girl from Mexico. They were allowed to walk around the block together, accompanied by her aunt. And the girl is 18 and is working!

Many of the men in Mexico are very macho. So I am torn what to tell you to do. It might be better to just lay down the law that she is not to contact the OM. But that really isn't the MB plan.

I wish someone who knows the customs would chime in.

I think laying down the law is what I have been trying to do. I have been following plan A except for that one deviation. I get scolded here for doing it though so I have stopped.

I think NC is what she needs to preserve her sanity which is why it is so important to me. From my POV, I have already been through ****** so the phone calls don't make me mad any more.

I tried to tell her to look at her situation from the outside. I was trying to avoid DJ's. I said to look at this picture - say a friend - married but still making phone calls to an OM. Would she not consider that was a bit beyond the scope of "usual"? Something has gotten to her over the past few days. Not sure what that was. She is still lost in the fog, however.

traicionado,

Are you and I married to the same woman?

When I read your posts, it seems that your wife and mine are very similar. My wife engages in therapeudic clearning especially when she is depressed. My MIL was a saint. She died in 1999 and left a hole in both our hearts. She was the most incredible person in the world to me. If she were still alive, I would tell her. Her mother lacked the severe judgmental attitude of her father. My wife has never been the same since her mother's death.

My wife grew up in Puerto Rico where English is taught in the schools. Still, her English command is not that highly developed. My Spanish is weak so there is a communication challenge. I try to speak with her in simple phrases and short sentences. Sometimes, she has problems expressing her feelings in English and will utilize one of those Spanish cliches that I don't understand. You know, the phrases for which no literal translation exists?

Have you actually forgiven your wife? I read that in your words, but can't help wondering if you really feel forgiveness? If you have forgiven her, why do you believe that you can never love her the way you did before her affair. traicionado, you are married to a Latin woman. You know the charm and allure of these women. Even as a teenager, I loved Latin women. There's a mystique, exotic quality about Latin women. Do you feel that? They typically are devoted wives who love wtih complete fervor. You are much farther along in your healing than I, so I cannot offer much solace to you. I am a mere tyro on this roller coaster who has not fastened his seat belt. I would just say to make sure your feelings and words are congruent. It is your own personal intergrity that will care you forward.

ToddC,

Yes I have forgiven her and I know that because I no longer feel anger. I don't know which site I posted this on but it may have been the other one so I may risk repeating.

Short version: back when I had few people to talk to and was also "playing checkers" (i.e. was trying to manipulate the situation - your move, my move, etc.), I had a chat with her priest. He told me two things that were very beneficial. 1) he made go back and read my marriage vows and I discovered it did not say love, honor and obey until wife has affair and 2) I asked him for any reading that might help me and he gave me four and they are at the end of each of the first four books of the NT. That one nailed me. I am not religious fanatic but do have faith. Basically, if I could be forgiven for what I have done in my life, who was I to say that I was too good to do the same. Try dealing with that one. It did not come immediately but, yes, I have forgiven her. She has not asked for forgiveness but then, in the four examples shown to me, forgiveness was not asked for either. If you have to wait for your WW to ask for forgiveness before you can grant it, you may be disappointed. Do I hope some day that my wife will snap out of this, realize what a mistake it was and beg forgiveness? Absolutely. Do I expect it will happen? Not really. If it does, that is a bonus that will go a long way toward my personal healing.

Yes there is nothing like a Latin woman. My wife still has (had) the values that I grew up with and that is probably the biggest attraction. I am gringo but I have lived overseas for a long time and I can easily see how that society has changed. I mean no disrespect to the USA. Its values and mine have diverged and I will leave it at that. I find my wife's values and sense of tradition and family are what I prefer our children to grow up with.

I read where you said you were off the roller coaster. Don't believe it. I used to think that too. I will send you a PM on the other site today because you need to understand my theory of the three-legged dog. It is one of the tenets of life. If you can adopt that theory, it will get you off the roller coaster much faster. Since you are a tyro, make sure you put the "T" sticker on your car so the rest of us will know:) Give me till the PM and I will send you that PM. It will take some time to write.

I once read that it is not how you react but how you recover. Excuse me but that (IMHO) is total BS. I do think how you react speaks about who you are and how you recover speaks more about your integrity. You need to be true to yourself but are probably not quite ready to do that (i.e. you will have to get off the roller coaster first).

Make no mistake, what your WW did was inexcuseable. She will have to live with that the rest of her life. Tough. It was her choice and we all have to live with the consequences of our actions. She gets no sympathy from me.

Maybe I am out of line here but I saw on the other site that you are undecided on R or D. IMHO that is a decision you will need to make quickly - at least if it is R. Set the anger aside and clear your head. What do you want? Keep in mind that it is not entirely in your hands but, if you had the choice, what would you prefer?

Lastly, I would never love my wife the same as before because the innocence is gone and that will never come back. I might love her more (if we recover) because I would have come through the most difficult time of my life with her and she would know that, in spite of what had happened, that I had supported her. Sounds nice anyway. The fact is I really don't go there too often. I just accept the idea that it could happen and leave it at that. I have a lot of battles to fight before I am anywhere near there. Small steps.

The greatest loss in the affair is trust. That most intimate of betrayals is devastating. I could imagine what she told the OM about me, about us, etc. That was worse than the mental imagines of sex. I don't think I have the OM on the ropes just yet but I have gotten his attention. If I could just get my sister to stop trying to give me advice, I would be far happier. I have gotten the WW's family to butt out and that has been helpful.

traicionado,

Now I am curious about the "theory of the three-legged dog." Do you mind sharing it with us?

I am impressed with the people that are able to forgive. I seem to lack the ability. So I wander if the secret it is in the definition of forgiveness. What is forgiveness to you?

What is forgiveness? hmm.... Tough one. For me, to forgive her is to no longer have any anger or resentment toward my WW when the memories flood back. I accept what she has done. I accept that she has hurt me more than any other person ever could have. I accept that she has possibly destroyed her daughters' futures - and I forgive her and still love her in spite of it.

The three-legged dog theory is simply a way to help me face difficult problems. I am going to cut and paste because I think you have to take the theory in context but keep in mind that this was originally a PM. Here is what I wrote to ToddC (excerpted):

....I have one small but significant part of me that is black and white and the remainder is all grey. I am no religious zealot. I have a strong faith in God. I like to think of myself as an agnostic Christian because I have serious issues with those who "know God's plan". My fundamental tenets (the black and white) of life are:
1)Life is not fair. It was never intended to be and people who say things like "I can't believe a loving God would do something like that" have clearly never read the Bible. If you expect life to be fair, you are in for disappointment. God never promised that ANYWHERE.

2)God does love us and, parallel to this, there is no such thing as coincidence. Things happen for a reason even though we may never understand what that reason was. You cannot allow yourself to believe in coincidence. Whether it is divinely inspired or simply a result of probability, coincidence does not exist.

3)Survival theory. I am not sure how relevant this is to your current situation but it is one of my cornerstones so I mention it for completeness. Survival theory is based on chaos mathematics conbined with the third law of thermodynamics (entropy) but, in its simplest expression says that, if you spill all the coins out of your pocket, you will never ever be able to pick them all back up (unless you knew beforehand how many coins you had spilled and had an infinite amount of time - infinity solves a lot of problems BTW). You will get most of them but there will be "survivors". I could give a better example but don't want to dwell. (Note: Survival theory has nothing to do with infidelity or recovering from an affair BTW)

4)Chased by a mad man: if you and your family are terrorized by a crazy person trying to kill you and you get lucky enough to knock him out, don't turn your back and go hug your wife. Take his knife and shove it through his heart making sure he is dead. Then cut off a couple of his limbs just to be certain. I have seen way too many horror movies. There is nothing wrong with killing someone who was trying to kill you. (Hint: apply this to the OM - show no mercy)

5)The three-legged dog theory. This is where you may begin to doubt my sanity. I am no expert on dogs. This theory comes from casual observation based on living in Mexico and the Middle East where three-legged dogs are a more common sight than in the USA. Now, three-legged dogs most likely did not start out that way. They began life with four legs and then, after some trauma, lost one – probably later in life. I have never seen a three-legged dog sit around and contemplate the loss of the leg, question God for taking the leg, wonder whether life were still worth living sans one leg, etc. Basically a three-legged dog gets up of its butt and goes to look for something to eat because it is hungry and needs to survive. Now it will probably take a look around at the missing appendage and realize something is not quite right. That is to be expected. It doesn’t think "how am I going to walk without one leg?" It doesn't know how to walk on only three legs because it has never had to before. It may fall, trip, stumble a time or two but, before long and after some trial and error, it is getting along fine on only three legs. Now, why is this important? You and I are three-legged dogs and need to follow their example.

When I first found out about the affair, the family was off in the USA and she gave me the news by phone. I could not sleep or eat. I went from a 33 waist to a 27 in four weeks. I was skin and bones. I don't know what the stages of grief are. I know I started out in denial for about a week and then went to anger. I get lost after that. Eventually my wife came home assuring me that the affair was over. I think I put my story on the site so won't repeat here. I was on the rollercoaster. Eventually I thought I had gotten off the rollercoaster. The highs and lows did not come as fast but, when they did, they were extreme. I could go for five days thinking there was hope and then have some random thought triggering me to think "what the heck am I thinking!?!" Get the witch gone!

The bottom line is that you can accept just about anything as long as you spin it right. It is all in the way you look at something. You need to take your situation, put it inside a box and twist it and turn it nine ways to Sunday until you can find a way to look at it that makes some sense. That is not fair to you BTW but review tenet #1. Once you can get the proper angle, always remind yourself of tenet #5 and you can stay off the rollercoaster for good. Take what is you and put that box somewhere safe and protected while you ride out the storm. Set a goal. Let that goal be like a lighthouse while your ship is getting thrown about on the rough seas. Never lose sight of it so you stay off the rocks. I have always loved lighthouses. Don't know why really...


One of the hardest things about an affair is that my world crumbled around me in an instant from a phone call. I did not crumble with it. I have had to go back and find what is me and rebuild from that. Being a three-legged dog makes it easier.

I hope that makes sense. I didn't really want to post it here but you did ask.

traicionado,

Thank you. It makes sense to me too. But I am very hard-headed and I'm still trying to find my missing leg and have it re-attached. So, needless to say, I am frustrated at my inability to do so.

We do share the same definition of forgiveness. But the more I think about it and ask other people the more I am convinced that the capability to forgive it's in one's personality. I don't think I can force myself to feel something I don't. And I don't feel forgiveness...uhm...is forgiveness a feeling or an action? I don't know.

You seem to be doing verey well. I am glad for you.

lealas,

You may never reattach your fourth leg. You are now on three legs and will have to forage with that configuration. The three legged dog does not dwell on his plight; he finds ways to survive. I believe that is traicionado's lesson.

I cannot yet forgive my wife. My hurt and anger are too fresh, d-day one week ago. I believe that forgiveness is an action. If you truly forgive, it will be reflected in your actions. Unexpressed feelings don't amount to a hill of beans, but can cloud your thinking and your actions. Until you forgive, you will harbor anger. Anger is self-destructive and will only help your WS, not you. The WS can handle your anger much better than your hurt. Anger merely serves to remind them why they cheated. Their fog is not constructed of logic, but of fantasy. Hmmm...come to think of it, maybe I should forgive my wife...

I like the three legged dog story.

For me, forgiveness is a decision. You may wait forever to feel like forgiving. I made the decision I was going to forgive my husband, and followed it by first words, and then actions.

Of course, it was much easier for me, because my husband is out of my life.

ToddAC,

Unfortunately I am a person and not a dog and I have the ability of complex thinking. Dogs have it easier.

If forgiveness is an action, can you describe it to me?

He is not in the fog and hasn't been there in a long time. My d-day was 18 mmonths ago and I am not closer to forgiveness today than I was on d-day.

By the way, my husband cheated because she was pretty and she wanted him. No other reason. It was an ego thing at first, then it got complicated. But that is another story.

Yes I am not a dog either. I too have more complex thinking than that which is my whole point. The end result does not, however, change. Eventually we both come to the same conclusion - it just took the dog a lot less time than me. So which one was smarter - me or the dog? That is why I try to remember his example.

traicionado,

I agree with you.

Maybe if I dye my hair blonde... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />