I have learned much, but it has also created some stress in my mind. There are two girls that I worry about. One of them comes from a recently divorced home, and she was the one that avoided me. I think the divorce could explain her behavior. The other one I do not know much about her home life. I know her father was out of a job for a long time, and he was withdrawn, but not much else. She chased me around wanting to talk all the time, and I had to be really firm that she attend all her classes and be careful that I was never alone when she approached me. This one worried me, still does. My W has been working with the 14, 15 year old girls starting last summer (the past three years she was camp director) She just asked me if I was planning on going to camp this summer - I am still thinking about it.

I train adult leaders working with boys, and give them encouragement. Often we do joint activities with the Young Women leaders, and cordiante the boy-girl activities like regional dances, and youth confrences. I worry a lot about them all, and wish the world wasn't so hard on them. Perhaps I should be used to it by now, after all, the bible says the last days will be as the days in Noah's time, when the world was so wicked that it was almost totally destroyed. It is especially hard to see young children, and realize that many are at risk all over the world. They are so sweet, and inocent, it breaks one's heart.

I have four grand children now - they like me, they know I am safe. I wish we could make the world safe for them, but we can't. I think you are right that we need to pay better attention.

(I had so many interruptions, I don't know if this makes sense, but I better just post it.)

SS

Adult child molesters bank on people not being able to believe their own eyes. You see something inappropriate, or even just a little "off", and you simply can't imagine it means what it looks like it means. Surely you don't think................. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Yes, I do.

t&;

SS: I think kids need more people like you at camp.

thndrnliting: thank you and your family for this thread. You definitely drove home a point with my h about someone that I have had a "gut" feeling about for a long time with and around my kids unfortunatley he is a family member but it has renewed my resolve to protecting my kids.

I'm glad to hear it. Prevention/intervention was the whole purpose of telling this story. So far, we've mostly talked about identifying and preventing molestation. We haven't even started talking about what it's like to live, day in and day out, with children who have been victims of long-term molestation. Blech. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Dear God. This has been terrifying (but important) reading.

(Glance over at 4-year-old daughter and 3-year-old son....)

This seems like an appropriate place to post this question - I trust it's not a TJ.

For the past years, our church has been working on a child safety policy. All volunteers undergo background checks and must provide references before they can work with children. The policy also lists action plans for identifying and reporting abuse.

One of the policies is that when children are taken to the bathroom by a caregiver, the attending adult should be the same sex if possible, and should remain in the open doorway to stay visible to those walking by. Diapers are only changed by the adult in charge.

A question arose: a child of 3 will likely be unable to perform the entire restroom process him/herself. Yet many of them only inform the teacher "last minute," so there isn't a whole lot of time to find the parent!

As preschooler parents, we were discussing how we felt about others "helping" our kids in the bathroom. I have longstanding friendships with 90% of the caregivers (all of whom are parents of preschoolers themselves), and the thought that any of them would help either of my kids in the restroom doesn't concern me.

Should it? Is there an alternative to the policy that I could/should suggest?

Thank you for this important thread. The courage of the people here never ceases to amaze me.

G

That's an interesting question, but one we don't have much experience with. Even before, we were nearly always with our children to make sure they weren't getting molested by somebody. Then, after it happened, we WERE with them all the time, to make sure they wouldn't molest somebody else. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Neaksis is down with that family right now, offering support while they call the report into the police. (Read that: making sure they don't chicken out again.) While they are still very deeply entrenched in the victim mentality, i.e. paralysis, they have chosen to do this themselves, rather than force us to do it for them, and this is a very good step.

More later, I'm sure.

I'm glad the family is calling the police. I can't imagine someone NOT calling the police! Although my H says he wouldn't....he'd just kill 'im and save the county/state some money!

I do know that one of the fears I had about my 2 oldest grandsons and my granddaughter was that they would be abused.
Well, we did have a problem with ex-DiL's 2nd H and current H back before she married them. With her 2nd H, the kids told our son that "Buster" had "whupped" them. Son is like his dad...as soon as he got home, "Buster" was totin' a "whuppin'". Shortly before the kids came to live with our son, we learned that the current H had "whupped" our 2nd grandson...I don't think to the extent of it being a real beating, but still pretty harshly. And, he and ex-DiL both told the kids not to tell. We didn't find out about it until about a week after it happened, and only then because GS#2 spent the night with our D and she noticed the faded bruises on his thighs. GS#2 told her that he fell off the porch, but GD finally told her that "Rob" had whipped GS#2.
Our son went to see about filing charges, but we couldn't actually prove it. Our D took pics, but the bruises had faded to a very pale green and didn't show up.

Son did pay a visit to "Rob" and let him know that he would be inspecting his children every time he saw them, and that if any more bruises showed up on any of them, the next thing "Rob" would wake up to would be a baseball bat upside his skull. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Son can be pretty intimidating, and "Rob" knew he meant it. He then informed ex-DiL that the next time his kids showed up with bruises, he would seek emergency temporary sole custody and haul her butt to court.

And, then, while I worried about sexual abuse to all of them (due to ex-DiL's frequent change of partners), I especially worried about GD. I kept an especially careful eye on her. When she was small enough for me to bathe her, I would make sure there wasn't any undue redness in her genital area, etc. I also paid attention to her general behavior, although I wasn't really sure what to look for. I guess I was looking for changes in her normal behavior. I also became concerned about ex-DiL's sister's H, who seemed TOO involved with her. For instance, when ex-DiL moved about 20 miles away from them, he showed up at her house when Son was there to pick the kids up for his weekend, saying that he missed her so much, he had to come see her. He would also take her to the movies, etc., while never inviting the boys. I don't think he ever actually did anything, but have to wonder if he was waiting for her to get a bit older. It COULD be that he grew to think of her as the daughter he will never have. His wife can't have any more children due to a hysterectomy before they were married (shortly before GD was born), and ex-DiL apparently dumped the kids on them for several days at a time while she was with her boyfriends.

Anyway, GD seems to be a very self-confident child who has no problem with speaking her mind, does not display any inappropriate behavior for a 9 year old. Son has talked with her about how her body is hers and that NO ONE should be looking at or touching her private areas. He told her that if anyone ever did, she should SCREAM "NO!" and TELL her mother or another adult right away. He also told her that if her mother the other adult didn't help her, to tell another adult or call him or us. He told her that sometimes grown-ups do bad things and might threaten her to make her keep quiet, but not to worry, because he and her grandpa would protect her.

After that (she was about 3 at the time), she was at our house one day and we were in the bedroom changing her clothes. H walked by the bedroom door, and she grabbed her clothes, held them up in front of her, wagged her finger at H, and exclaimed, "Oops! Don't look, Paw!"

Of course, we still have to be watchful in these days and times, but it's a load off our minds to have the kids living with their dad, now.

I really appreciate this thread and salute you all for turning the horrible situation with your own family into a means of helping others. Thank you!

The very short version, so as not to steal any thunder, is that they got the initial report done with the PD, but because the crime occurred elsewhere (really, probably everywhere), there has to be another report made to the sheriff this morning.

So maybe she will get to go down again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In reading this thread I wanted to pass on some more information to tell your children. It was something that I learned the hard way. I always taught my children that if a "STRANGER" touches you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable you should immediately tell an adult you trust. You think you cover all the rules, and then you find out a family member molestes your child. So you ask them why didn't you tell me they were touching you and it didn't make you feel comfortable? And they tell you, "you didn't say anything about granddad's." So make sure you say if "ANYONE" makes you feel uncomfortable they should tell.

Lady Clueless-

Those were some interesting points that you brought up about your grandaughter. It was actually quite similar to what I would have said about myself and the situation with the kids biomom at the time they lived with her.

I always inspected Vals genital areas looking for redness or other physical signs, I talked to her at an age appropriate level that her body was hers, and no one got to mess with it, etc, etc., I watched for behavioral changes, and gently asked her if anyone had ever touched her in a way that made her uncomfortable. I was watchful, I was hip, I knew all about what to watch for, I was dead wrong.

First of all, oral sex does not leave physical signs. Watching porn films while doing manual stimulation does not make a little girl's genitals red, nor cause bloody underwear, or any of the other things I was looking for. Molesters aren't stupid, and it is very rare for them to actually get so carried away as to cause provable damage.

As far as behavioral changes, she didn't exhibit any of those until the abuse was stopped. For a 3-5 year old, she held it together rather well, but when she was no longer seeing him, she went to pieces. Then, when it didn't do any good, then she started showing signs.

This doesn't mean your GD was molested, but knowing what I know now, I would have been alarmed in the situation you described. It smacks of inappropriate intrest, and would have been a red flag.

Anyhoo, I just wanted people to be aware that (I'm talking about myself here) you can think you are watching and have it all under control, and still miss the whole thing.

Though this is a painful and frightening topic, I would like to see the thread continue. It's very important reading, and very rare to have a peak into a world that most people only see when they're faced with it in their own families. Neaksis, or thndrnlitng or Neak, would you be willing to write more about your kids and what happened to them?

I can't right now because I have to get ready to go to work, but yes, we can tell you more, and any telling we are able to do will come with the absolute assurance to everyone who reads it that it's a LOT better to have a peek at how somebody else is living in this "world" than to ever have to live in it yourself. You probably know the old saying, "Forewarned is forearmed," and it's is certainly true when it comes to this topic.

Maybe I'll be very lucky, and it will be "Q" at work tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And maybe every pregnant woman in Stockton will decide to spend the evening bonding with the nurses in L&D. You'll be able to which it was by whether or not I show back up again today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Neaksis, thank you for your response and validation of the red flags that I was seeing in DGD's uncle's behavior.

I don't think she was molested by him...but do wonder if it might have happened as she grew older.

She is in very limited contact with him now, and I think that she is never alone with him when she is around their family.

Our son has had custody of her since August of '04, and the only time DGD sees the uncle is when her mother comes to our state for visitation (a few times a year). After x-DiL's sister egged xDiL to try to get sole custody of DGD by claiming that our son was not DGD's bio-dad (failed miserably, BTW, since DNA gave him a 99.995% chance!), to the point that she actually TOLD DGD that DS was not her father, son cut them (the sister and her H) off from seeing DGD or even talking to her on the phone, at least while she is with him. Prior to that, the sister had asked our son to relinquish parental rights to allow them to adopt DGD. Anyway, the only comment DGD has made about not seeing or talking to them was to ask why she couldn't talk to Aunt K anymore (no mention of Aunt K's husband). Son told her that Aunt K was the one who talked her mom into saying that Son was not DGD's father. "Oh! Then, I don't want to talk to her anyway!" End of story.

Anyway, there is still no inappropriate behavior on her part toward men or boys (and no shrinking from them, either)...no indication that she knows more about sex than an almost 10-yr-old should know. Anytime that she is with that family now, she is with both her mother and her brothers. Since she no longer sees her mother very often, she prefers to spend every moment possible with her mom while she can. She was that way about her dad when she was living with her mom. She wouldn't spend the night with us (then) for fear of missing out on time with him...and she saw him virtually every weekend, and once during each week.

I had fully expected there to be some emotional problems with her after all the false paternity/non-paternity claims, but she seems to have taken all that in her stride. But, then, Son has always been open to talking to her and explaining things to her in an age-appropriate way. Her stepmom (a teacher) is pretty good at talking with the kids, too.

I am mindful, though, that as the implicatons of her mother's claims become more clear to her as she grows older, there could be some residual effects. We just have to pay attention.

It's hard to find these threads once they disappear into the back pages, so now that I've tracked it down, I am going to boost it to the front so that when I get up tomorrow I can answer a question or 2 without first instituting, for this thread, a major search party, using guide dogs, maps, and a lamp. Interesting things going on. I wish Neaksis and Neak would do the posting, so they could pick what they want said, and leave out what they'd like to keep quiet. If I'm the one who does this, I can't guarantee I'll say exactly what they hoped for, nor keep the proper secrets, either. However, they can't say they haven't been warned, can they? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Neaksis, thank you so much for this thread.

Difficult subject matter to read and discuss, no doubt... but it's so important for parents and caregivers to be aware.

Lori

When I talked to Neaksis awhile back about what red-flag behavior one could look for in a child, she reminded me (and has said on this thread) that for her kids, the red-flag behavior didn't really become noticeable until the abuse had stopped. For a long while, it appears, there was some sort of status quo with these children, and as long as nobody ruffled things up, they maintained their facades quite well.

The 2 boys would sometimes arrive with odd bruises, but they were always "explainable" (and explained) by childish accidents around the house. Even the time Odin arrived with a big black eye, it could have happened the way they said--because he ran into a solid object. Now it's easy to be suspicious, and to say, "Right--a solid fist." But once the kids came to live with Neaksis, Odin managed to fall on some chicken wire and slash open his skin right under his eye. He's lucky he didn't blind himself--1/4" higher and it would've been his eyeball that got it. And it WAS an accident, which I was glad Neaksis was going to be the one to explain to the ER people when she went to get him stitched up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Not everything that appears to be a red flag is really a red flag. Conversely, not everything that appears normal is really "right." Wouldn't life be easier if we could always read the signs accurately? Even with the occasional physical bruise, though, there were few (if any) cracks in their emotional facades, as long as they lived under the same roof as the Marsupial. They kept their secrets well, primarily because Odin couldn't talk much; Thor was in terror for his mother's life; And Val thought she had a fiance, with a wedding in her future. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I'm wondering, though, if this same equilibrium, this ability to hide everything from people outside the home, could exist quite so well if a child were being molested somewhere else, by someone else, and then returning to his/her own home setting...in which the molester is absent, and over which he has no power. I'm sort of inclined to think in such a case that the adults in the home environment might have a chance to more easily observe some sort of red-flag behavior. It's hard for a child to go through such a life-altering experience and not have evidence of it crop up somewhere.

So if I were watching for evidence, I think what I would notice most would be, not one specific behavior, but simply changes in the norm. A child who was outgoing and fearless becomes shy and withdrawn. Someone who never met a stranger now can't seem to meet a friend. A little girl who (as happened to our previously-mentioned friends) suddenly declares she's not wearing dresses any more, and insists on wearing pants to keep her legs and genitals covered. Someone who was always open and accessible becomes secretive and hidden. New, unaccustomed displays of seductive behavior towards adults or other children. A child who displays fear towards things that never were bothersome before. An example would be Val, who had, in the past, been photographed (without any problem) playing in the tub, but suddenly went ballistic and became hysterical when she saw Neaksis with a camera during bathtime. Val denies it, and there is no proof, of course, but we strongly suspect the Marsupial took some porn shots of her during the years she was being molested. I've often been tempted to surf the net and see if I couldn't find said photos, since he was the type that if he took something like that, he'd try to make money off of it...but figure with my luck I'd get caught in some kiddie-porn sting and not be able to explain my way out of it. "But I was just doing research." "Yes, ma'am. We've heard that one before." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Not an exhaustive list, I know, but enough to give you an idea to start out with. When the kids came to live with us, and the nightly sexual congress <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> between the 2 younger siblings came to an end, they put forth a great deal of creative effort in trying to maintain their accustomed life-style. One day they asked Thor to perform a wedding ceremony for them, since they figured that if sex was for married people, and they were married, then they could legitimately have sex with each other again. A molested child will try VERY hard to keep his comfort zone maintained. This very effort can be, in itself, a red flag.

t&l

^ for walkingthefield, and because I have been shirking and slacking, instead of commenting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It has been about 5 years since this whole thing blew up, and it is still hard and affects the day-to-day living of each of us, still having to be on guard against sexual acting out. If my dear Princess were not such a faithful and reliable tattletale, it would be even harder.

My 8yo told me the other day, "Mom, I wish I didn't know about 'seckshool' things." Yeah, me too.

Check this out -

A Children's Hospital respiratory therapist suspected of taking pictures of children at the hospital's convalescent center has been arrested on suspicion of child molestation and distributing and producing child pornography.
Wayne Albert Bleyle, 54, was arrested Wednesday and is being held in county jail on $3 million bail. Bleyle has worked at Children's Hospital as a respiratory therapist since 1980, the past 10 years in the hospital's 59-bed convalescent facility.

Nine current or former patients at the facility, Children's Convalescent Hospital, have been identified as possible victims, the hospital said. Many patients at the facility, which is adjacent to the hospital, are unable to feed, bathe or dress themselves and cannot speak.

not_so_you_neak,

ALL (both) of my BIL's should be considered ECM's.

One of them we need not be concerned with anymore. He was sentenced to 70 years in a Maximum Security State Prison. He died in prison about 10 years ago.

The other BIL is the one that concerns me. He is now a violent offender (took after a step son and beat him with a hammer) and has made threats against my family before and in one case while he has been in prison. He is scheduled to be released into "Active Supervison" in late 2007. This is something that I am NOT looking forwared too.

The sad part is that I used to like him a great deal and we would help each other out alot.

I think that I'll write the story about him, his choices, his desent into ****** and eventually into prision. The story stretches back over 20 years.

I've had the distinct displeasure of watching someone whom was once a friend slowly self destruct over a 20 year period.

And can you guess what the first major incident that started his downward spiral was? An A that his W had.

It'll take me a while to write this up but I'll post the story when I'm done.

My stepfather molested me when I was growing up. Inappropriate language, touching but no intercourse. One red flag that my mother should have looked for that I was sending out- not wanting to be alone with him.

Any time she would get ready to leave me alone with him- at home or in the car I would whine and cry and try to get her to take me with her. That is because I knew as soon as she got out of earshot it would start. I would plead almost but she never took the bait.

If your child doesn't like a person or doesn't want to spend time with them- relative or not- do NOT force them to.