Lordslady - OK we haven't heard from you in awhile... How has it been going????

Yes, you've been in my thoughts as well. Please post an update when you can, because you are cared about here!

Hope you are OK, LL.

We need to hear that you're OK, LL. WE don't need details, just let us know you're still around and breating.

cm

SO, folks, should we be worried?

Somehow I'm not worried (that way)... I take it as a break from MB (and I think she needs it)

I was just thinking... 'Lost Husband' must know something...?

Not worried...I'm sure she is doing everything we advised her not to do...LOL

Yes, I'm still around. And yes, I did take sort of a breather from MB for a while. As my therapist suggested, I tend to take a lot of input and analyze it but am not good at filtering it, so it's overwhelming.

As for my update, if we could stop prior to this weekend, I'd tell you that I'd been making progress. I'm still seeing my therapist. She was ready to cut me to every two weeks but asked if I could still see her next week, and then we'll see. And the A/D's I think have calmed the extreme mood swings a bit, though things with "R" had also settled down a bit as well. I haven't needed the Xanax for over a week now.

My daughter has moved out, or so she says, but she called tonight and is out of money. I won't send her any, so she's gone to her dad. He is an idiot and has apparently told her he's going to hire an attorney so that he doesn't have to pay child support, but is going to send her some money personally. I tried to call him, but in his usual immature fashion, as soon as I asked if she had called and then asked him not to send her money, he hung up. So I left the rest of my message of WHY I don't want him to send money on his answering machine. UGH!

(Side note: he's just wacked anyway. Friday night at 11:10pm, my doorbell starts ringing like crazy. I figured it was my daughter, home already. Nope, it was the ex, with some blond chick who isn't the OW in the truck, and he was drunk and asking to see our daughter. Well, she wasn't there (thank goodness, actually). Curiosity got the best of me and I did have to say, "So who's that in the truck?" It's apparently the woman who is renting their basement. Seems sort of strange to me, considering OW wasn't along. But point being...who would ring their ex's doorbell at that time of night, especially without calling first? Not that I'm afraid of him doing something physical, but it was just really weird and rather frightening.)

And one other thing: While I haven't done great at building that friend support network, I also did some gym tours last week and joined one on Friday (my first gym ever...I'm very nervous). I'm scheduled to go for the first time tomorrow night and work with a personal trainer. So I'm trying to do things that will help me feel better.

Okay, so back to the update. Other than my daughter moving (which I've been praying will be a learning experience, and my therapist has agreed that it may be the only way she'll learn), things have been more settled.

I know you all think I need to dump "R", but yes, we're still together. We had a more open week last week in terms of him telling me his feelings about us. He told me he really jumps between the two options of trying to deal with the frustration of two sexless years of dating, or the earlier marriage option (not saying spring break here). He said he really hasn't seriously entertained the "not seeing each other" option at all. And then mid-week he even said, "LL, I've decided that if you love me and if I love you, then we're just going to figure out a way to work with the boundaries." That was very refreshing.

Okay, so it was all good. We were set to see each other this weekend at my place...the first time he's spent any major amount of time here since mid-November, before everything went haywire. I was nervous, but decided we'd managed to hold to the boundaries at his place, and I'm tired of driving over there all the time. He could come here. So, we spent 48 uninterrupted hours at my place. It's cold out. There are no relatives or friends to visit. We grabbed a bunch of groceries and were going to watch movies, go on a short drive on Saturday to a Dutch town, and then maybe clean up the garage a bit. All I need to say at this point is...dumb idea. We should have had a much better plan. It is very, very difficult to be with someone you had a sexual relationship with for months, who you love, and fight those urges to go there again. I know though, that it is possible (and required by God), and that I totally blew it this time.

I could let the guilt drag me back to not eating. I am fighting those "I can't talk to God" feelings. I've had a few moments when I've felt that fear that I'm condemned to H*ll. But none of that will change what happened, will it? So I just as well pick my sorry rear end up and come up with a better idea next time. (Much talking needs to be done with my therapist.)

"R" and I have discussed what happened, and both of us assume responsibility. I think the guilt comes because I feel that I should loathe what I did...absolutely hate it. I can't seem to do that, because I love the guy I was with. I do feel an intense sadness because I disappointed God in a huge way. And again this makes it hard to go forward, knowing what to do. But at this moment I DO know I'm not breaking up with "R", and I DO know that if we made it 2+ months before "without", we can do better than that this time. I'm also fairly confident that if he decides to walk away, it won't be simply because of no sex. It will be because he's decided there are things about me that prevent him from wanting a long-term future together. He has stated several times over the last couple weeks that if he simply wanted sex, he wouldn't have a problem going out and finding it. But that's not who he is or what he does.

And while I'll admit that after 6+ months with him, I've found some things that aren't perfect...he's a little bit immature at times, he likes to be in control just like I do, I wish he was a bit more of a spiritual "leader" than just a spiritual "agreer", and he can be a little manipulative...I don't see him as a monster either. I think I tend to take a lot of his comments out of context, misinterpret them, and then post them on here. While the last 2 months have been a roller coaster as he's worked through his own feelings and frustrations and fears, he's not walked away, nor has he quit calling. He did refrain from seeing me, but I think it was because he was thinking, and I believe him when he said it was because it is less frustrating that being together and fighting the urges sometimes. I actually agree with him on that. And the date where he treated me like a "sister"...I think it was partly him not wanting to deal with any of the physical frustration and part him giving me a taste of my own medicine (i.e., she took something I desire, I'm going to take something she desires). We discussed it and I was honest about my take on it. And he didn't deny it. But it's also dumb to have a relationship where you can't see the other person. So that's where we are.

I know this is difficult for him, and he wasn't the one who made the decision in the first place. And I admit this weekend was probably the equivalent of taking two reformed gamblers (one who wasn't even sure he really wanted to reform) and turning them loose in a casino without supervision.

So you can all 2x4 away. I know...you told me so. I am absolutely certain that God does not condone this behavior and that I sinned in a major way. I'm processing all that right now.

I have nearly beat into the ground today with "R" that this is not going to continue, and he's probably been the more honest of the two of us when he said, "LL, I'm taking it one week at a time. I promise that next weekend we will not get into trouble." Next weekend, which will not include an overnight, but will include a full day Saturday with him, should be an easier time. And then, I guess, we make plans for how to get through another weekend. Back to that "one-day-at-a-time" thing, except with not being sexual instead of not seeing each other.

LL

Blow me over with a feather, you mean that NOW things are going to be different when you've beat this boundary into the ground for like months, all of a sudden NOW it's going to be different.

This is simply another examble and Same S*** Different Day. He continue to absolutely disrespect your boundaries and you continue to not enforce them. Only now, now we have a new justification thrown because now if he breaks up it won't be because of sex.....

Actually, someone said that I would know what's up with you a couple of posts up and yes actually I did know. It's the same pattern. You leave the boards, have sex, and come back. So you can blame your silence on anything, from where I sit it's indicative of every other time you've left for a while, it was because you were getting some. So why pretend anymore?

I will simply say, that in your post, I read that you are becoming "Spiritually Numb", that saddens me and is truly the only reason I was inspired to post. Atleast at one point you were conflicted over this, now it seems acceptable (more justifications and rationalizations than ever) for all the reasons you've given and I fear that all you are showing God is your backside as you walk away....

Sorry for the intrusion and I'll recede back into silence....

"It is very, very difficult to be with someone you had a sexual relationship with for months, who you love, and fight those urges to go there again."

Sorry, but this sounds like another excuse. You both are adults not teenagers.

Yes, and no. Actually, I wasn't pretending. I wasn't "getting any" at the point that I left the board for a week or so and I actually thought that "R" and I were doing better with things. I was truly just taking a little breather. The stuff happened this weekend. I had intended to post again anyway, but didn't intend to post what I posted. But I also am honest, and it would have been stupid not to be honest about that. But no, last week when I stayed away, it was because I was seeing a therapist, joining a gym, working, and spending a little time with my daughter before she left.

As for becoming numb, perhaps I should go back off the A/D's. I think they numb me to a degree. I've sat here all morning wondering if I've committed the "unforgivable sin" by doing something that I knew was wrong when I did it but I gave in to desires, which is basically turning my back at that moment on God. God says that there is nothing more to save a person who sins deliberately (somewhere in Hebrews). It is extremely scary. I haven't called my pastor yet, because I'm afraid he may confirm that I've crossed the line of no return, and I can't imagine not having God to turn to in my life, nor do I want to burn in H*ll.

I know you're saying "stop seeing him". I'm just being honest when I'm saying that I love him and I desire a future with him. And while I've wondered if the only way I can show God that he is first is to give up everything else in my life, including "R", even my therapist said that God designs us to desire relationship and that it's not the desires that are bad (they're natural), but how we respond to them (which is where I fell very hard this weekend).

Question that I guess you don't have to answer. How did you deal with remaining celibate when you were dating your now wife? Did you guys abstain until your wedding? I know you did the long-distance thing.

LL

You know, if this weren't sad, it would be funny. "It's not going to continue"?? Is that like "just one more drink, really!"?

And his "promises" are quite amusing too. He'll promise you anything to "get off", and then he'll apologize and you will feel like crap. Sounds extremely unhealthy, but what else is new.

I wish you could step back and see how dysfunctional this relationship is, and good sex won't cover it up for too long.

AGG

You do realize, too, that sex covers a whole lot of other things, right? Once that is in the mix, there is a tendency to gloss over problems, because the hormones and feelings that having sex together creates in your body bonds you together, and you to him more than him to you, in such a way that you will shut out the negative. That bond becomes too important.

And getting a little fix every now and again just reinforces the bond, and pushes away any clear-headed look at problems in the relationship.

And LL, though a lot of things disturb me about this development, the one that disturbs me the most is the appearance that R is willing to say whatever he needs to to keep things going with you until he can create the right circumstances where he can push your boundaries and get what he wants.

Could he be sincere when he says he's sorry, and it won't happen again? I guess so. Could he really be a great guy who just slipped up here? Ok, maybe. But that isn't what it looks like to any of us seeing this from the outside. From the outside, it looks like he's a guy who, though he probably does really care for you, probably does love you in his own way, wants what he wants, doesn't respect your boundaries, and will do what it takes to get things his own way.

That's a very dangerous thing. Is that really the kind of relationship you want? Because I think, LL, a man of integrity would have backed off before it got to that point, and said that he didn't want you to think he was trying to make you do things you had said you didn't want to do, even if he didn't necessarily agree with you on it. He would have said that if you wanted to change your mind, and go back to having sex, that it would have to wait until the two of you could sit down and have a calm, clear-headed discussion so he could be sure you were making the decision you wanted and not just giving in in the heat of the moment.

That's not letting the blame for not holding your boundaries off you, but... you really need to think about this. This is a BIG issue. Bigger than the sex alone. Because ultimately, it won't be only about sex, it will be about everything. It will be about any and every boundary you have. If he doesn't respect this one, he won't respect any of your boundaries.

I don't know that I expect any of this to make much more difference to you than anything else people here have said. But we're all trying to get you to think about what you're getting into here LL. I know for me, I have said many times that I would far rather spend the rest of my life alone than make the same mistake I made the first time around and get mixed up with someone with the same kinds of problems as my XH had. I do want to get married again someday, and my preference would be sooner rather than later, since I have no children and am rapidly approaching the age where I may never have them. But I refuse to go rushing headlong into something just to not be alone. Because I remember all too well what my marriage became. And being with my XH was far lonlier than being alone is. If I'm alone the rest of my life, it would be better than being back in the situation I was in during the last half of my marriage.

Do you really want to just jump in like this? With all of these red flags flying all over the place? Just because you don't want to be alone? Would it really be better?

I know this was directed at LostHusband. And I'm not pretending to answer for him AT ALL. What concerns me is that you have (more than a few times) expressed frustration that noone understands your particular situation. Noone has given you clear, step-by-step instructions on how to remain celibate, and how to maintain your boundaries.

First of all, we have given you wonderful suggestions and ideas, proven steps used in ALL situations for setting boundaries for self-control, or for boundaries guarding against behavior from other people. And you don't follow them.

Second, even if you found a support-group of folks with exactly similar situations as yours.... dating 40-somethings, learning how to resist sexual temptation... I doubt you would follow their advice as well. And a problem with even comparing your situation to theirs would be that YOUR situation would STILL be different, because everyone IS different, and you have to develop your own solutions, LL. Be an adult, take responsibility (am I saying this AGAIN?) and develop your OWN solutions to this problem.

I'm sorry you're still struggling.

I guess I don't see your relationship as dysfunctional as much as I see you as extremely conflicted. You are very open about the details of your life in a way that invites people to react. I can imagine that all the feedback you get must be really overwhelming.

Use your IC to guide you through all the conflicting advice and opinions. Talk to her about your pattern of making choices for yourself, not honoring them, and then beating yourself up. You're really not the bad person you seem to believe you are.

Talk to your pastor. Maybe you and R could even talk to him together for some counselling since you mentioned some spiritual issues with R, besides sex, that your pastor should be able to help with. See what your IC thinks about this.

Hopefully your DD moving out will turn out to be a good thing. It's too bad how your XH is handling it, but ultimately DD has to deal with the reality of her dad as well as the reality of her own impulsivity. Teenagers in general, and your DD to an extreme, tend to be really unaware and unappreciative of what is provided for them and this experience may help her to be more realistic. Meanwhile, you working on valuing yourself more in IC can only help her learn to value herself more.

LL,

I've only written to you once, I think... but I've read a lot.

You know, when I had my affair, it killed me spritually. It was so against everything I knew was right and moral... I wanted to die, for real. I stopped the affair after one final visit to a hotel room (for the only act of intercourse we had). I thought I loved him. I thought he was my (group vomit) soul mate.

He wasn't. Not because he was, or is (I wouldn't know, havent seen him for years) a bad man. Because it was wrong: I was married, he'd been with a common-law spouse for over 7 years, we both had children, and we both should have had more respect for our bodies and souls.

This is where I'm coming from in my response to you. LL, I read your stuff and feel two things:

One is sympathy/empathy... I know how it feels to NOT follow what you KNOW God wants for your life...

Second, frustration (like many others, obviously).

To go against what you believe (and what you know God wants for you) once is not wise, but human, and forgiveable. To put yourself in a situation to do it again (and again) is just plain ol' dumb. I am not saying YOU are dumb, LL, but your actions don't speak of someone striving to do what she knows is best for her physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

Why do you do this? Seriously. I would like a response. Why do you put yourself in a situation where you KNOW you'll fail?

AGG,

I guess my point to the comment you focused on is that while I'm the one promising to be good forever and then failing, he's only committed to a very short period of time because I don't think he does trust himself to not want to push once things start getting heated, so in a way he's being more realistic than I have been by thinking I can do what I do and still pull this off.

Osxgirl,


It's not just because I don't want to be alone. I really truly do love this guy. And in many ways he has been very caring and considerate and good to me. The last thing I want to do is break up with him. And things have gotten increasingly comfortable over the last couple weeks and we've had some good conversations about us and the future and stuff. So I actually thought that maybe we could do this. But 48 hours together alone was too much with no concrete plans other than just "being together".

Faith,


I think I'm just blind here. The only thing that keeps ringing through the messages is "let him go", and I want there to be a different answer. But all scenarios where we spend time together seem to be risky.


That is the truest think you could say. And this is what I was very open with my IC about last time--that I am terrible with boundaries and I don't know why. I'll take it up with her again Thursday.

LetSTry,



I don't see the beating myself up as a problem. I did wrong. It's the not honering choices that I'm very frustrated with. Why can't I stuff my desires and just say "no"?

NBII,


And the fear here...unforgivable?

LL

You didn't answer my question, LL.

And you already know the answer to if you're unforgiveable. EVERYONE is given mercy when they repent and ask forgiveness.

<Repent: Feel regret/turn away>

Listen, LL. I'm not a Christian to follow. I don't believe like most fundamental Christians. And I'm not here to debate the right/wrong of either of our belief systems.

I will say that I feel that free choice is just that. The right to choose. I believe that you have the freedom to choose whether or not to sleep with someone before you marry. Your choice.

I won't judge your choice.

I am judging your LACK OF CHOICE and waffling.

My ex-H, for example, believes that smoking cigarettes is against God's will. Yet he smokes. He's smoked for 15+ years. Over and over again he'd "try" to stop, only to do it again. I don't judge his smoking, because aside from polluting your vessel (body) I wouldn't call it a "sin" exactly. But I DO JUDGE **why** he says it's a sin but does it anyway - over and over.

LL, make a CHOICE. A *real* choice. Either accept that you and R have an adult relationship including sex, or that you have a relationship that does not include sex, or dump him because he isn't helping you stay the course you have CHOSEN.

Choose.

Ok, I feel like you didn't really get the most important point, so I'm going to try one more time.

I have no doubt you love him. I have no doubt that in many ways he is very kind and considerate and caring.

But I think the fact that you have had (and now have continued to have) sex has formed that bond - a chemical bond which is known, though I can't remember all the details right now - which helps encourage those feelings of love. Add to it your fears about being alone the rest of your life, and you have built up this huge love-dependency on this relationship and on R.

And this love-dependency keeps you from seeing or acknowledging things that might threaten that relationship.

And you wouldn't be the first to find yourself in that position. It's why so many second marriages fail. That's WHY I brought up my marriage, and why I mentioned how I am making such a point to remember what it felt like to be in my marriage once it went downhill. I don't want to be jaded and never give anyone a chance again, but I also don't want to just repeat the same old mistakes all over again. I spent 10 years on that first learning experience - I don't want that to be wasted time.

And I think that's what all of us here see happening. You're so eager to be in a relationship that now you're in love, and all the problems are being ignored. And we're afraid you're just going to keep on ignoring them until it's too late, and you end up being another second marriage statistic - or end up in a very emotionally abusive relationship.

Hi LL,

I can totally identify with the struggle to remain celibate. When my H and I were dating, we had pretty much the same issues - I set up boundaries because I thought the current state of affairs was a sin, H pushed at them, and they came tumbling down. Time and again. I told God over and over - okay, I won't do it anymore. This time I mean it. Yet Friday night would come, a movie and snuggling on the couch, and then the walls came tumbling down. The feeling that I was constantly disappointing God? It ate me alive.

I was 15.

Of course, I can look back now and see that we established and reinforced a pattern of H busting through my boundaries right from the start. I see that disrespect fuelling his entitlement (and vice versa) in our early days of marriage, until he was knowingly making decisions that were solely selfish.

I look back now and see that my own sense of self-worth was compromised and that, 15 years later, I struggle with boundaries. I still feel guilt over our pre-marriage activities, even though we did get married and "legitimized" everything.

I suppose this might seem silly - comparing a grown, adult woman to a 15-year-old girl. But the thought patterns are exactly the same. The behaviors are exactly the same. And I just know that I'm still paying for my refusal to establish and reinforce personal boundaries 15 years ago.

Hugs (((LL)))

G