Very good NB.

I realize you are TRYING to reach a decision, right, LL? Trying avoid #3, hoping for #2, while existing in #1 with blinders on.

The height of insanity.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was one of those who kept saying: you have to choose.
Taking words written here 'for granted'...

Not seeing that LL had actually made her choice...

NBII,



Because I truly want to believe that I won't fail. It's sort of that "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" thing. I want to believe that somehow it can work...that we can remain in our relationship, see each other, and not let it go to that level. And because we'd managed to not end up having sex for just over two months now, I thought I was ready for the next step--that being trying to have him come over my way again. Did I know in the back of my mind it was risky? Yes. But I was hoping for the best. Maybe my hope is like living in a fantasy world and not reality. I just really want to believe that things can work somehow. I'm stubborn. I don't want to give up on us.


The problem I'm having here: I truly feel regret...deep regret. The problem is that I turned away back in November, and then I fell back into it last weekend. If one repents, are they supposed to turn away forever and not commit that sin anymore? What if they do fall back into it? Therein lies my worry about forgiveness.

Osxgirl,

I do understand what you're saying, and I do agree that a physical relationship can blind a person to someone's flaws. I've had two months of a no-sex relationship with him and it's been a rollercoaster, but it's given us a lot of on-the-phone time to talk about things and as I said, I thought we had actually made some headway. But obviously this weekend just blew that all sky high.


But I guess it's comments like that where I am confused. Are you saying "Be aware and be careful" (which truly I am trying to do--last weekend excepted) or are you saying "dump him"?

griselda,



Ditto.


I am very aware that I am bad with boundaries--have been since I was a child. Some of it probably has to do with my own self-worth and some of it is my basic personality. This is something I am actively working with the IC on because I KNOW it's a problem for me.


And I know that if I wish this relationship to continue, that I am going to somehow have to muster the strength to stuff my desires when we're together and grow a backbone. What frustrates me about myself is that I just keep screwing up over and over. I feel like a failure to the point that sometimes I think to myself, "why not just give up and give in". But I'm stubborn, and I know it's wrong and ultimately I do want to please God more than anyone else, so I keep trying.

Faith,


And that's why I'm paying that IC that I'm seeing faithfully.

All of you....I know you're really frustrated and I believe you really do care. I just feel like a complete failure most of the time because no matter what I do in life, I seem to manage to screw it up. I'll refrain from sharing the complete list at this moment. But I just keep hoping and praying and trying to have something come out right for a change, and I'm starting to think that it's never going to happen. I have prayed and prayed over this situation with "R" and like I said, as things had improved over the last couple weeks, I thought this was further sign that maybe He was working in both of us. Now I'm very unsure again. I'm sort of feeling like I'm back at square one except this time I'm working very hard to take care of myself physically so that I don't do the 'crash and burn' thing again. I'm eating. I'm praying (whether God can hear me or not). And tonight I paid my first real workout visit to the gym I joined last week. I'm going to pray some more tonight. And I addressed some concerns in my email to "R" this afternoon and have asked that maybe we can take a few minutes to talk about where to go from here on our phone conversation tonight. I have no idea how that'll go yet. I'll know in a couple hours.

But you're right, I am hoping for "Option #2" and praying that "Option #3" doesn't have to happen. I don't think until this weekend that I was living in Option #1, but I've probably had at least some rose-colored glasses on, if not blinders from time to time. I just don't want to believe that we're reduced to a two-hour dinner date and a quick "good night" peck on the cheek for our times together.

LL

On the particular matter of the "unforgivable sin," I can only say that I don't believe someone who commits a sin of that nature is capable of worrying about it.

More importantly, in my view, is that such ponderings are a sad distraction from what really ought to be concerning you, lordslady. You're so caught up in worrying about which side of some imaginary line you're on, that you don't even think to ask which direction you're moving: toward God or away from Him. That to me is a far more important issue, and one on which the Bible speaks with much greater clarity than on that vague "unforgivable sin."

And the apparent answer to the question of which direction you're moving is troubling. Do you know what the next step in the "unforgivable sin" line of reasoning is, lordslady? It's pretty simple: "Well, I'm probably already condemned, so what more can it hurt for me to do whatever I want now." With the spiritual numbness setting in, I reckon you're already halfway there.

You're too smart not to be able to learn from your mistakes, lordslady. But you don't learn from them, and you keep setting yourself up to fail. By this time, it's pretty clear that you're not learning from your mistakes primarily because you don't want to learn from them.

But for some of us at least, it's a heck of a lot easier to go around saying "I screwed up because I'm such a failure" than it is to admit that "I screwed up because I wanted to."

Perhaps there is some effect, but...I don't buy it. They sure aren't numbing you to your desire for "R," are they, lordslady? So why then should they numb you to your desire for God?

If this is really true, I'm guessing it's more because you are afraid of Him than because you love Him.

... and more to be 'politically correct'... has better 'value'... here... and there...

LL,

You don't know this, mostly 'cause I haven't talked about it on this site much, but the last three months have been really hard on me. One reason is that I had a VERY BIG health scare. I had a scary test result and was told I would have to have another in three months. I had three months to make some lifestyle changes. The biggest change I had to make was to stop drinking so much coffee. If possible, I had to stop drinking all coffee. Hmm... I work at a coffee/donut diner. Let me tell you, LL, that I was scared enough to DO IT, even though I was faced with coffee, making coffee, serving coffee every time I worked.

Amazingly, it was emotionally easy. Physically, it was tough. Very tough. I got migraines, and they lasted for days. I got sweats. I was *addicted* but more than that, I was AFRAID. I went from more than a pot a day to one cup a day.

Man, what a headtrip! I took control, and I succeeded! Whoo hoo. I also prayed and some other things, but this one change made all the difference.

Nobody would tell an alcoholic to hang around in bars while he/she quits. Nobody would tell a smoker to buy a few packs and keep them handy. Nobody would tell a food addict to have a box of twinkies at the ready, because it is a recipe for failure.

In spite of that, if you really want something, I honestly believe you can choose it. No excuses. I had to choose: coffee or huge health risk (if it wasn't too late already). YOU NEED TO CHOOSE: Sex or huge emotional risk. Which do you choose?

I understand that you feel like a caged animal, back against the wall, thinking you're doing your best, why can't anyone understand? BTDT. I got so mad when people told me I had options or choices. I wanted to scream, "Where? Tell me where?" And LL, I'd make you cry if I told you some of the things I've gone through. Unfortunately, there are many of us on MB who have gone through heck and back: with our spouses, with our children, with our jobs, with our health... many of us. You aren't alone!

Make a choice. Doesn't the Bible say: Choose thee this day whom you will serve?

GDP,

Thank you for responding. In my research today on "unforgivable sin", I'm not surpised that some of what I found mirrored your answer--that if one is worried, they probably haven't committed it. I do really value your Biblical insights.

In any case, what I did do has left me very sad and dissappointed in myself.



Actually I have been thinking on this as of the last several weeks, and I have been doing more praying again, and more reading, and have felt more at peace, especially the last week or two. I have truly felt like I have been moving closer to God again--maybe not at the speed I'd like, but at least not going backward like it seems so easy for me to do.

Just one of the many things that frustrate me about myself is how I can let myself get so caught up with life that I back-burner my bible reading and my prayer life which then makes me more vulnerable to getting pulled away by life. And it's been a common theme throughout my life since I became a Christian, probably in part because we are supposed to fellowship with other Christians, and I've not done a good job of making any close Christian friends over the years who could be my support when I'm weak. It's another thing on my to-do list. But point being, I was actually moving sort of in the right direction until this weekend, and I am trying hard to not let that blow me off my path. That's why I've continued to pray, even though I'm not sure God can hear me right this second. I don't want to move away from him just because I'm ashamed or scared. I need him.


Oh, believe me, Satan was screaming that at me during my lowest point this morning along with other dumb things like "Why even go on?". But somewhere common sense or perhaps the Holy Spirit was saying, "Don't listen to that. It's still your responsibility to please God. You can't change the past, but don't quit now." I have prayed many times to God asking him to keep my heart from hardening to sin and to always let me feel the conviction if I am doing something wrong. I admittedly don't like tough things in life and would rather avoid pain, but I don't EVER want to harden to right and wrong, even if pain is involved.



Well, I feel like a failure because I shouldn't even want to do what I did. But ultimately I did what I did because I wanted to, not because anyone had any gun to my head. (And yes, that's hard to admit.) But truly, even thought the physical drive is always with me, at the start of the weekend when he arrived, I had absolutely no intention of acting on it. I really, really wanted to prove that I could do the right thing this time.

As for the A/D's numbing me, I didn't mean that they were numbing my desire to please God. They're not doing that at all. (Nor are they numbing my desire for "R", unfortunately). What I meant is that they keep my emotions sort of numbed. I don't just break down and cry, nor am I waking up shaking and sick and unable to function like I was two months ago. But my point is this: back then I was almost throwing up over what I'd done. Now I'm not laying in my bed crying or shaking--I'm more just very sad and disappointed and empty-feeling. But I can still eat and function and all. And while being able to function and eat and carry on is much easier than what I experienced two months ago, I don't want to become so numb that I don't suffer the emotional pain when I do something wrong. But then again, when I was all crazy and shaking and sick and depressed, I fought some strong feelings of "why am I even going on?" and I don't want those back either. Sort of a catch-22.

Do I fear God or do I love him? I think it's a bit of both. I have a genuuine fear of eternal separation from God (and yes, I really have no desire to experience an eternity in the fires of H*ll either). But the first thought that runs through my mind when I mess up (general mess up's, not necessarily the huge mess of last weekend) is not "Am I going to you-know-where?" It's a sadness, and a feeling like I want to hide, because I know I disappointed God. I truly don't want to disappoint him. In a way I know I can never please him...never be good enough...and that's why I need Jesus. But I still WANT to do what the bible says. I just keep messing it up.

"R" asked me this weekend what some of my life's goals were. Honestly, the only one I could come up with off the top of my head had nothing to do with finances or careers or anything. It was simply, "I want to look back 10 years from now and see that I've grown as a Christian."

NBII,

I understand what you're saying for the most part about how though it's not wise to be around something if you are addicted to it, in some cases the desire to do the right thing is strong enough that you can succeed regardless. You're saying I have to be strong and just do it.

"R" and I talked tonight about what happened and both agreed that it was pretty much a set-up for failure because we had done very poor planning, we both knew we were alone with no chance of interruption, he had a bad cold and so we limited our going outdoors and doing things and more or less just watched TV and snuggled and napped most of the weekend. All were prescriptions for disaster. However, using your analogy, we still should have been able to resist and nothing excuses the fact that we didn't.

He is very aware that what we did is bothering me a great deal, and that I'm nervous about where this leaves us going forward. So we discussed next weekend and came to the conclusing that since I'm not spending a night over there, that we should be fine because we'll spend most, if not all of our time over at his parents' place, and his kids will be there.

The following weekend will be the tougher one (i.e., more opportunity to be around the coffee yet not indulging), and he seems to be in agreement that we can't walk into it like we did this weekend, with no plans or protections in place. But that's about all I've come up with so far.

I see my IC on Thursday. I will be talking it over with her.


Yes, I believe that's a common theme throughout the Bible and one I seem to struggle with on some level almost daily despite my desire to serve the Lord.

LL

Honestly, LL, no one here can tell you what the right decision is, whether you should just be careful about your relationship with R or you should "dump him". Why?

1. You're an adult. That is your decision to make. And as we've all seen here, even if we told you to "dump him", I doubt it would matter (and it's not that I'm SAYING to do that!!!) But you are going to do what you want to do, and it IS your decision to make. No one here should be telling you WHAT to do. We are trying to advise you and point out the pitfalls and the things we think you are missing in the way you are thinking about this. Or the things you aren't thinking about at all.

2. We are only getting what we hear from you. None of us have met him. We don't really know enough to tell you what the right thing to do about the relationship is. All we can do is tell you what we think based on what you have told us. And based on what you have told us, we all see a whole lot of red flags. Some of them are about R and the way he treats your boundaries, that perhaps he doesn't necessarily respect you enough.

3. I don't really think most of us think this is nearly as much about R as it is about you. That's why you aren't getting a clear-cut answer from anyone about whether we think you should continue a relationship with R or not. These problems would be here no matter WHO the other person in the relationship was. Because it's mostly about you. If R can handle stepping back and waiting while you get yourself together, then great. What we are mostly saying is not so much "dump R", because that will just say that it's ok to go find someone else. We are saying we think you need to be alone. To learn to be happy with yourself and to figure out what it is in LL that is letting her allow people (R, her daughter) to walk all over her boundaries like this. To make her have such wild ups and downs (I'm going to be alone the rest of my life/I've found a wonderful man I'm in love with and I want to marry/He'll never want to see me again, etc., etc. - all within the space of a couple of months.)

In other words, R isn't the problem here, he's a symptom of the problem. I know what I'm saying here isn't anything new - I've seen other posters say it. And I know you're going to IC. The thing is... it takes time. And time is what you are not giving yourself. Time to heal. Time to figure yourself out. Time off from the relationship merry-go-round so that your mind has room to process what's going on with LL in the IC sessions instead of using the IC sessions for love advice.

I know that isn't what you want. And I believe that isn't what you think you need. But I really do think you are using thinking about other people to avoid looking at yourself.

G'mornin' LL,

LL, you keep saying things like how R knows this (sex, mostly, but other things, too) is an issue for you. Are you expecting HIM to make the choice? Is that the bottom line?

I do 'get it'... honestly. Because I've been there. I've felt paralyzed to make a choice and waited until there was no choice, or someone else made it for me. Nobody can blame me then, right? (Wrong, by the way, because being a passive-aggressive non-decision maker is just as damaging to you as not making a decision at all.)

I'll tell you what I've learned... when all the dust settles... it's about you.

I used to use a quote in my sig line by (of all people <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ) Barry Manilow (sp)... and I'm not sure of the exact words, but it went something like this: Nobody knows what you want as much as you do, and nobody will be as devistated not to get it as you will.

I've used a lot of deeply moving, thoughtful sig lines over the years... always a direction I *wanted* to go... always something I *wanted* to grasp... always passing that gold ring of understanding without grabbing it.

Then I stopped the ride and got off.

LL, stop the ride and get off. Be deliberate.

What you want (R) is not what you need. You know this. You need to love YOURSELF enough to know that your worth is not determined by outside forces. I KNOW HOW HARD THIS IS. I still grapple with self-esteem issues. I still struggle with making right that which was wrong -- i.e. legitimizing things, in an attempt to (at least) make things look okay to the outside world. Gotcha. You want to be respected, loved, admired.

Keep up with your therapy, but know it is not a six-session quick-fix. Your feelings of self-worth are deep-seated. Your issues are going to take some time. It is a process. I hate process. I wish things would happen *right now*... but they don't. Therapy is hard work, especially when you've had the kind of issues many of us have had (childhood molestation, family secrets, etc.). Don't give up, LL.

In the meantime, make a decision to protect yourself. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations. There is absolutely NO REASON for you to spend time alone in a bed with R if you aren't intending to have sex. As I've said to you before, these tests are unhealthy and unfair TO BOTH OF YOU.

C'mon, LL. Take one step out of your comfort zone. Make a choice one way or the other. Don't even tell us what the choice is if you don't want to. But for goodness sakes, please don't come back and tell us you cuddled in bed all weekend and *ooops* had sex.

How can something be any more dysfunctional than this? A relationship where one person is at times suicidal, and the other person is vaccilating from breaking up to suggesting marriage? Where one person keeps beating her head against the wall and still wondering why her head hurts, while the other person is helping her pound her head because he doesn't have the willpower to stop himself? This is way beyond "conflicted", IMO, this is very very unhealthy.

AGG

AGG,

Whoa here!! I think now you are the one overdramatizing (don't take that as a slam...just as an observation). I mentioned that there have been times when thoughts of "why am I going on" go through my head. I don't think that makes me "suicidal". There have only been a few times in my life when I've seriously considered it via slamming a car into a bridge...they lasted about 5 seconds...they were when I was with my ex, or when he was leaving me. Wondering what the use is to go on is not the same as entertaining continued thoughts of doing myself in. I would guess that I'm not the only person who has had the fleeting momentary thoughts. But there have been few times in my life where I've felt in danger enough to think perhaps I should call someone.

As for him, he hasn't vascillated on the breaking up since December, and even then I think I was assuming he was more serious about it than he was. He mentioned several times during that period that he felt I thought he was ready to dump me, and that he wanted me to know he was not actively or passively seeking out other women to date (I think I put that in my posts, too) but that he was "conflicted" and wasn't sure what the answer was as far as moving forward. He knows, just as I do, that we have three choices: 1) Date for the 1.5 - 2.5 years until one of us could relocate and deal with the sexual frustration, 2) Marry sooner and do a long-distance marriage temporarily, or 3) Break up.

Sounds simple--but it's not. We neither one want to break up. We're nervous about marrying too soon. And it scares us to think of dealing with dating for 2+ years and keeping it non-sexual. So probably making plans for how to handle one weekend at a time is the best we can do right now. And right now we have good plans for next weekend.

As for willpower, don't blame it all on him. It makes me angry when he takes all the blame here. I was the one who made the no-sex decision in the first place. NBII made a good point in her post--while I should expect other's to respect my decision, I can't expect other people to make the decision (or to uphold it if I don't). It's up to ME. I have to choose. Thus, I feel I deserve more like 80% of the blame for what happened this weekend. Neither one of us showed much willpower and I did choose, and it was the wrong choice.

I'm not saying we have the perfect relationship by any means. But I don't see it as "dysfunctional" either. I may be a bit dysfunctional at times--I'm working on that. He has a little selfish streak. I'm aware of it. I see it as something to be aware of, not as a deal-breaker. As for if he respects me, I guess I haven't put that to much of a test yet, because you're right--I haven't respected myself. I haven't demanded the respect. When push has come to shove and I've put my foot down, he's never pushed me beyond that. My problem is putting my foot down in the first place.

I need a backbone.

LL

Lordslady - well nice to hear from you again .. but sorry to hear that the same stuff is going on... You have to as an adult make a decision - to sex or not to sex and then stop beating yourself up about it... I mean - I know you truly want to believe that it is a sin.. but sorry somewhere deep inside you - you are conflicted on this issue... or else you wouldn't continue to do it over and over again... No one can tell you whether it is wrong or right - that decision is all up to you and your partner... If you didn't have this conflict would life be alot easier.???? Pick and chose your battles - Your answer is an easy - one - either do it or don't but really after this many times you really have no one else to blame but yourself... I dont' blame R - if I was him - I would be frustrated - not for lack of sex but for doing it - then being made feel bad about it afterwards...

Maw64,



Oh, HECK YEAH! (But I can't just change my way of thinking and accept that it's right. Hard to explain but just the way it is.)



What the issue is is that while I am convinced it is a sin, I struggle with desire (and letting things get out of control to the point that desire blocks out everything else until AFTER it happens, and then it all comes flooding back). I had the same issue with anger when I was married to my ex. Sometimes when he'd come home drunk and start on the name calling, we'd get into these huge fights and I'd say all sorts of non-Christian stuff and get really angry and, in our earlier years, even throw stuff sometimes. I knew it was a sin to be out of control like that (though I don't feel it was the same level of sin as the sex issue is), and I'd feel really bad afterwards and ask God to help me not to do it again. Yet it DID happen again and again over the years, though I got better over time at controlling it.

I'm not saying I expect the sex to happen again and again. It is still my goal to NOT let it happen. I feel bad because just a week ago I could say to myself, "We've done good...we've gone 2 months now and haven't messed up since I made my initial decision." Now I can't say that. I can only say, "We've gone 4 days." We have a LONG way to go to even hit the 2 months again.



I agree--I am the one who should be in control here, and I've dumped part of the control on other people. It was (is) my decision. That's why although ideally he would have said before we continued, "Are you sure?", in the heat of the moment no one thought of that and I don't feel like he should take the brunt of the blame.

LL

Maybe you are right. Maybe I simply imagined you posting that you could not eat, sleep, function, work, and go on in a normal fashion. Maybe I simply imagined that you and R had trouble agreeing on such silly things as respecting boundaries, sticking to your core values and boundaries, and respecting each others' wishes and desires. In that case, you can disregard my "unhealthy relationship" comments as "drama", and go on merrily in this loving, caring, compassionate, and supportive relationship. Come to think of it, if your relationship is all those things, then why are you hurting after every encounter with R?

AGG

AGG,

We're not quite on the same page here...


That was pretty much true. I psyched myself out both over the thought of him walking away AND having to give up sex. Didn't help that I'd just gone off my A/D's that I take for anxiety a couple weeks prior, without doctor approval. But I was not suicidal as you commented in your earlier post, though. THAT was what I was clarifying. You made it sound like I was ready to "off" myself. I had a bad anxiety attack. It's not the first one, and unfortuately probably won't be the last, though I wish it were, because they're awful and when I have them I feel like I'll never feel normal again. They seem to be triggered by major relationship crises, health crises, spiritual crises, or by acts of terror (aka 9/11 sent me into a frenzy for a few weeks).

In this case, it was a combination relationship/spiritual crisis, so it hit me hard on two fronts, and as I've mentioned, I don't have a support network outside of MB, so I just sat and dwelled on it each night. I am working on the network--may be meeting someone from church next week for dinner--she's emailed me and we're just trying to coordinate schedules.

Winter doesn't help (I think I also suffer SAD because I'm always more blue in the dark, cold months even during a good year, and am tanning now which has lifted my mood a bit, too).


I admit it...he and I struggle with this. I wouldn't say to a dysfunctional degree (guess it depends on what it takes to qualify as "dysfunctional"). I think we all can be from time to time, to a degree. It's just easier to see in others than in ourselves.

So I agree, the relationship isn't 100% perfect, but I don't think that means we just have to dump it. There are hurdles and things we need to work on, and issues where we may not see eye-to-eye but to say that it's "dysfunctional" seems a bit harsh because I see a lot of positive things with us, too.

I believe anyone who doesn't have an issue with sex outside of marriage would have to admit I threw a wrench in things when I went there initially and then abruptly threw on the brakes 2.5 months into the physical relationship. It wasn't something he was prepared to deal with (actually wasn't really something I was prepared for either, as I've never done it before. It was just something I knew I needed to do. I didn't have much of a plan for how to do it.)

How would you react if you were seriously seeing someone (and enjoying the physical part greatly) and she just dumped that in your lap one Saturday afternoon? You may be certain you would have reacted differently than he has, but unless it's happened to you (and there are only a few on here who to my knowledge have experienced it), you really can't say for sure. It's sort of like saying "I'd to such-and-such if my spouse committed adultry", but unless it happens, you really don't know how you'll react.

In a lot of ways, my relationship with "R" is loving, caring, fun, compassionate, and supportive. We have the one big issue that is the one posted on here. Everything else has been pretty much smooth with the exception of my daughter issues and even there, he had decided to start spending more time around her because he wanted to become more comfortable (one of the reasons initially that he planned on coming my way last weekend), but she up and decided to split from home for a while so she wasn't around last weekend.

I hurt because we struggle so much with that ONE ISSUE. Sometimes we get lucky and have a good time together. Sometimes we really blow it one way or another. It's been a trial and error (more error than anything else). Until I find some sort of resolution, it is going to continue to be difficult. Actually, even if we get our act together as I am hoping, I think it will be difficult because there will always be sexual tension and desire when we're together, which is probably going to lead to some frustration for both of us. Of the articles I've researched on people who abstain, they all maintain that it is very difficult and requires much self control. But the only way to fix that would be to not ever date (or to date someone I felt no desire for, and that's sort of pointless).

LL

I believe that while what started this whole chain of events and pain was "that ONE ISSUE", it has unearthed a number of other issues that are very troubling. The relationship has some very unhealthy patterns that have been demonstrated. You can argue with my labeling it "dysfunctional", but dysfunctional simply means that it is not functioning well - would you say that it is?

In a healthy relationship, you would not be unable to eat, sleep, work, or function. If you cannot function, you are "dysfunctional" by definition of the word.

In a healthy relationship, we can see ourselves being happy again if the relationship ended - in a codependent one, we cannot. You said time and again that you cannot see yourself be happy again if R disappeared, because no one else would probably want you and your "issues".

In a healthy relationship, both people are emotionally strong and healthy. You have stated over and over how miserable you are, "cracking up" is how you phrased it. Do you think a person who is on the verge of "cracking up" is a healthy partner?

You are relying on R as a crutch, and while that may feel good (as long as he is good to you), it is surrendering way too much power and control to him.

Anyway, this is not an argument I need to win, and as long as you view all the huge red flags as just "little things we need to iron out", you and I will continue to see this differently.

AGG

We have differing views on "dysfunctional". I've always thought of it as meaning pretty much beyond hope. I was told years ago that my marriage was "dysfunctional" when my now ex-husband was seeing his first OW, and he sat in the therapist's office and told her and me that he loved that woman more than he loved me. Yep, it was pretty darned messed up at that point!

However, by your definition (which may well be the more appropriate one), dysfunctional doesn't necessarily mean "messed up beyond hope". I agree it does mean "needs work" and I agree there are things that need work. But it's not so much the relationship as it is ME.


I might be happy again after grieving the loss. I got over my "ex". But I don't desire to let him go just to find that out. I want to be with him.

I do think I have some major issues that people would have to get past, and I think it would be a huge challenge to find someone who would. Yes, it is a fear and not one that is unfounded. And I fully admit, I do NOT desire to spend the rest of my life alone. It's not that I'm scared to live alone, or can't find things to do, or can't take care of myself. It's just that I desire to have a partner to share my life with. I think it's why most of us are dating.


No. That's why I'm trying to do things about it. I'm seeing a therapist, I'm praying, I'm trying to make other friends, I've joined a gym to improve my physical condition which can play a part in my mental condition, I went back on my meds, and I'm consciously trying to not dwell on things but to redirect my thoughts. Once I get through my year-end busy period, I still haven't given up checking out some al-anon meetings.

I do think I've made progress, and I'm not sure I've gotten credit for any of it. Only a few people have actually commended me on taking some steps to do positive things for myself. The only focus seems to be what I haven't done.



I love him and yes, I desire a future with him. I agree he consumes too much of my thought time (that comes from my spiritual beliefs--what we think about the most is pretty much our "God" and that needs to not be him), and I am trying to fill my thoughts (and my life) with other things besides him. That's why I've pushed myself to find other things to do in the evenings other than just sit at home and dwell on life. I'm an introvert, it's cold here, it gets dark early, and I'm not just brimming with energy. I'd much rather just veg every night after work by myself. But I know that's not healthy and was adding to my anxiety.

I am working with my therapist on "growing a backbone" and not being an enabler. But as far as me breaking up with R (or even just not seeing him for a long period of time)...that's not something I'm planning on doing unless I've exhausted ALL other options and we still can't get our act together. If he decides to break up because he can't handle it, I won't beg him to stay (I didn't in December) nor will I start sleeping with him again just to keep him.

Time will tell.

LL

One thing that still troubles me, lordslady, is the why of it. Why do you care whether you disappoint God?

It appears to me that your main reason for your abstaining-from-sex position, however ineffectively it may have been held, is that God said "don't do that." Then you go off saying to yourself "Well, OK, this must be important to God for some reason, but really, what a stupid rule."

From beginning to end, your situation with "R" has been an excellent illustration of why it's a good rule, but you are so buried in your struggle with the sin aspect that you can't see it. A large part of the focus of your relationship is on the struggle with temptation and forgiveness, when you should be focusing on the opportunities you have for building a relationship on other planes. And if you can't see those opportunities, then I have to ask what your relationship is really based upon?

It's the "principle of replacement," you see. It's much easier to push something out of the room and keep it out when you have something else to fill the room with. (Matthew 12:43-45)

I once read somewhere that sex is the mortar which holds together the walls of a marriage as it is built. While I'm not sure how much I agree with that perspective, it at least provides an image for a valuable corollary: a wall built mostly of mortar is not much of a wall.

LL,

Dysfunctional does NOT mean "beyond hope"... not by a LONG SHOT.

A car with a blown gasket is dysfunctional, but can be fixed with a new gasket (and four quarts of oil <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). A recipe that's missing an ingredient is dysfunctional and possibly unedible, until you get the ingredient and add it. A relationship that hurts one or both partners is dysfunctional, but can be fixed with a desire to change by both partners, a plan, counseling, and a lot of love.

What bothers me about your responses, LL, is something I've seen in myself for a long time. If we say blue, you say red. If we say up, you say down. I know it's not this way *all* the time, but it's too often to ignore. If you think there are no other options, I guarantee there are none. But if you'll open yourself to the *possibility* that there are, they will come forth. Honest, I've seen it happen.

Try this. When someone writes you, don't respond with an excuse. Instead, respond by repeating what you think the person said.

If someone says: LL, the relationship is dysfunctional... you say: I hear that you think the realtionship is broken, beyond repair.

See how it works. Maybe that way we can at least be talking the same language. Okay?

LL,
I am givin you kudos beyond kudos for joining the gym, making a friend from church, and tanning!! I think those are wonderful accomplishments. When I was going through my D it was Jazzercise and electorlysis (YIKES) that helped me tremendously!!

I'm curious,though, when you talk about how you and BF need to come to agreement, or figure out what to do, what exactly do you mean? I thought the decsion was to abstain? What do you need to work out? If you're not sleeping together then you don't get into bed together, right?

My BF annd I both raise our children full time. Separatley, I mean, he's got two and I've got two. WE don't live together. While we enjoy sex, (LOTS) it sure isn't often. We've gone several weeks "without" and we certainly aren't bouncing off the walls. It's because we know we can't, because of the kids. So can't you just say, "we know we can't, because of GOD?