Guys, thanks for your help in the past, I posted something like what I will write below once before but I need more opinions and advice than what I got previously on this subject if you would be so kind...thank you all and God Bless YOU and the work you all do here to help people.

I am confused about something. At one point Dr. Harley says in one of his letters on surviving infidelity (In part 4) "After all, an affair is hatched with full knowledge of how much pain it will inflict on an unsuspecting spouse after it's discovered. It reflects a wanton disregard for the feelings of someone that was supposed to have been cherished and protected for life"

then in another letter, (and I cannot find it now, it figures)he states something like "Affairs were made to be kept secret from the BS" or something to that effect.... so I ask, ...

"Which is it?"

To me this is contradictory. Is it because I (From reading on here a good part of last night) I was not meeting his EN that he did this to try to hurt me purposely or is it because I was perhaps not meeting an EN of his that he did this and got caught? And what about our therapists take on it that he "Wanted to get caught"... to me that signifys that he is not truly over her (The OW) because he didn't have the balls to put a stop to it and by "Getting caught" I was the one who had to step in to be the bad guy and put a stop to it because he was unable or unwilling to do so.By the way he never wrote a NC letter even though I asked him too (Even before I knew what an NC letter was from reading this site.) His response was, "I just don't want anything to do with her and I just want this to go away"... Anyone, what's your take on that?

I don't think it's contradictory. Affairs are secret. That's one thing that makes them affairs. And they are a wanton disregard of how the BS feels. A lot of it has to do with the fog concept. A WS doesn't care about anything but getting their cookies from the cookie jar. They haven't a thought about getting their hand caught in the jar or whom might do the catching. When the lid clangs down pretty hard, sometimes they'll own up to it and stop getting the cookies (That's be NC letter, counseling, POJA, etc), sometimes they'll deny it (Who me??? conflict avoidance) or they'll say "So what? I want a cookie and I'm going to have a cookie!!!"

Personally, I don't subscribe wholely to the theory of people having an affair solely because their emotional needs weren't met by their S. Many of us haven't had our emotional needs taken care of by our S but we don't have affairs. People have affairs for many reasons.

What your H does sounds like is a really big conflict avoider. Maybe he wanted to get caught; maybe he just got sloppy. Maybe it was more than he could handle. He's just trying to sweep it under the rug and that doesn't fly. He needs to face up to the affair, write the no-contact letter and work on your marriage.

Good luck.

Hey Grape,
You hit the nail on the head I think. I agree that none of us have ALL EN's met and we don't go out and have affairs, I hear you on that one, and You are also majorly correct when you say he is Mr. "Conflict Avoider"... so why am I paying this therapist lady, I should be paying you!! Thanks

Anybody whose been on this board for very long could have told you that your H was a big conflict avoider. My WH is a conflict avoider. He was begat by conflict avoiders. I've tried the out-of-sight,out-of-mind technique and it really doesn't work. Until your XWH can face the music and admit what he did, you won't recover. He needs to admit to what he has done. Your marriage is in danger in until that happens.

BTW, the MB board is the best unpaid advice any of us can get. I can't count how many times the people here have helped me through.

I think there are different reasons for different people having an affair.

Often EN's are not being met, and they use that as an excuse to get them met elsewhere.

But there is another whole group who never put in much work on the marriage. Their spouse did all of the work, and by doing so, taught them that they are "entitled" to have what they want, even including another partner.

In my marriage I gave 100 times more than my WH. He got the idea that he didn't have to give anything, and was entitled to be happy at whatever cost.

By the Harleys standards, I should have been the one to have the affair, and years ago.

I also have problems with the ENs not being met things. To me, if there wasn't some kind of character flaw, they would come to their spouse and make the needs known, OR ask for a divorce. Most of the time, this is not the case.

Realbusy,

Is the contradiction you see in Harley's first statement you quote that because he knew how decimating his choosing an affair would be to you that you're reading that as his active desire to punish you for not meeting his ENs? The contradiction might be in your belief that if you know what you're doing is going to harm, then the only justification would be because you were harmed first?

My belief is that a lot of people want what they want to stop whatever uncomfortable feelings they have inside immediately. Even knowing that if discovered this will incredibly damage you, by keeping it secret he is trying to not cause you pain. Convoluted thinking, but conflict avoiders live up to their name. They don't tell you their thoughts and feelings to spare you (they think) when really they are sparing themselves. Same with the A. Without the secret, and keeping the harm secret even from himself, I don't think he could have done it to you.

And those uncomfortable feelings he wanted to avoid? You didn't put them there. They were his. And ironically, the best way to deal with uncomfortable feelings is to share them with someone safe, like you, his spouse. Go figger.

That's why the say here, the A is about HIM, not you. Does that help at all?

LA

Believer and Lovinganyway, I will write after dinner, thanks for your posts....

Believer,
I agree with you 100% about the "EN's not being met, that's why they had an affair" theory being mostly BullS... At first I blamed myself and after reading that article it confirmed my guilt. But you know what? Most people on here DO NOT buy that "Unmet EN" theory 100%. That , makes me feel a heck of alot better.

I too know what it is to give 100% and get back 60% in return. I know that marriage is not a one way street and have told him that 10000000 times. It involves sharing and communication BOTH ways. I always gave it my all. I DEFINATELY agree with you when you say it is a character flaw (EG: Avoiding conflict) that he does not and never really did make his EN's know, I am not a mind reader. I did the best I could with what limited knowledge I had.Not because I wasn't listening, but because he wasn't giving it up. I don't think anyone can blame me for being tired of pulling everything out of him...I mean how many more times do I have to say.."Talk to me". Thanks for writing.

Loving anyway,

I guess I could have worded it better. My thought or question was "Did he do this consciously, willfully, knowingly to hurt me?" (For what? this was not a revenge affair, oh, you had one so now I will to get back at you type deal) I DID NOTHING to bring this on I strongly beleive that. I want to beleive the second statement that I wrote where Dr. Harley says "An affair is meant to be kept sercet from the Betrayed spouse" That would make me feel somewhat "Better" (If you can call it that" that he didn't go out and PURPOSELY do this to hurt me for whatever reason.

I do feel confident now from seeing what people have written and reading all these forums that it was about HIM and not me. Yeah, are you kidding? It sure DOES help, your saying that. Thanks for posting to me. You guys are all the best.... thanks.

Anyone else?

Real Busy,

I don't think Harley is contradictory here. I'm a FWW and, while I didn't INTEND to hurt my husband, I knew all along that if the "secret" were revealed, he'd be devastated.

I have to argue against the idea that it's only because ENs aren't being met that causes the A. Perhaps it's a combination of ENs not having been met for a long time PLUS a too-good-to-be-true opportunity. I'm no expert in these things. I was 100% faithful to my husband for the first 12 1/2 years of our marriage, and I wasn't getting my ENs met for much of that time, as I'm sure many of his were going unmet as well. However, in my case, it wasn't until the opportunity presented itself that I wound up in the A. The "swinging" lifestyle hubby and I entered for a brief time last spring was ENLIGHTENING, to say the least. For the first time in more than a dozen years, I felt ALIVE! I felt physically attractive, very sexual, and happier than I'd been for a LONG time. Oh, and the SF was a SERIOUS cure for my horrible PMS...better than the Paxil I'd been taking. Once that world was opened up to me, I was addicted. I was addicted to the "high" I got from all of the flattery from men and my new-found sexuality. And then, when hubby put the brakes on it all...I kept moving forward...I had that whole momentum thing going. I developed an emotional attachment to one guy in particular, and I'm guessing it was because he fulfilled my need for conversation and empathy. It certainly wasn't for his looks (hubby is better looking), his job (he has 2 full-time jobs), or even the amount of attention he could give me (we've only ever seen each other in person 3 times, and hubby knew about the first, as it was during our "swinging" period...second time was a secret lunch, and 3rd time was my "closure" with him--hubby's not too crazy about that one as I'd devised some evil master plan to accomplish my goal of telling this guy what a jerk he was for leading me on, yada yada.)

So, to sum it all up, for me the A was a formula:
ENs unmet + depression + opportunity = Affair (BIG mistake)
My "taker" was out in full-force, and I honestly didn't think much about my husband at all during that time...he didn't really cross my mind (in a loving way) while I was secretly txt msg'ing, emailing, and phoning this guy. The cookie jar analogy is AWESOME! That's really what it was like for me. I'd convinced myself that I DESERVED to be happy at all costs. Yeah, I was one of those spouses in the "fog."

Perhaps it's because I'm a FWW, but I disagree with Grapegirl.


I don't think it always has to be a "character flaw" that leads one to have an A. And, I told my husband a 1000 times about what I needed...but he just couldn't hear me. To this day, I still don't understand why he'll read something in Dr. Harley's books and say, "Wow! I need to work on that one." Yet, I've been telling him the same thing for years, virtually verbatim, and he never heard me. I told him that perhaps it's because I don't have a PhD behind my name (TD has a bit of a problem being a "degree snob" as he's got 3)...which just made me feel like he's treating me as though I'm dumb.

As far as asking for a divorce?? Yes, I could've done that BEFORE having an A. However, people like my hubby and those on this board would argue against it. lol So, around here, pretty much you're dam**d if you do and you're dam**d if you don't. The sentiment seems to be to stick it out no matter how miserable you are.

Oh...and here's a revelation...I think I'm one of those "conflict avoiders." I used to stand up for myself and fight with the best of them. I could tell people what I wanted and be persistent until I got it. However, that style didn't work with hubby, as I came off as being too bit**y...so I had to work on toning it down a bit. In the process, I gave up the "fight" I had in me and that fight turned into a habit of "flight" when the going got tough. i gave up a lot of autonomy to my husband. I started letting HIM deal with a creditor who'd charged us incorrectly or the phone company that didn't turn on our service when they said they would. I guess I got to the point where I was scared of those situations because I'd often been seen as being too aggressive (it's called bit**y, if you're female). When I reigned in some of that aggressiveness, I became more passive, and avoided confrontation as if it were the plague. I'd rather run out the door than deal with an ugly situation. So, I'm sure that's spilled over into my interractions with my husband. Part of the learned behavior in my marriage was that if I asked my husband to do something too many times for his taste, he'd accuse me of "nagging" him...even IF the trash was still sitting there 2 days after I'd asked him to take it out. Eventually, I got tired of the fights we'd have. I think that point is key: when you and your spouse DON'T fight anymore, look out, because your spouse has probably given up on your marriage completely as he/she doesn't even care enough anymore to argue with you.

Ok...just my two cents. Probably worth what you paid for it. LOL

Crystal

Believer,


Quote:But there is another whole group who never put in much work on the marriage. Their spouse did all of the work, and by doing so, taught them that they are "entitled" to have what they want, even including another partner.

MY pathology was being that BS enabler. I thought that since my needs were so minimal, I could give my STBXW carte blanche to do whatever. The greatest arguments we had were when I had the audacity to bring up one of my needs. That simple request would trigger emotions she felt most comfortable exhibiting....hate and rage and entitlement.

Crystal43:

Thank you for the insighful post. Alot of what you think and say in this post, I can understand.

Goodluck,

LM

I think a WS knows full well the pain and misery the affair will caused if discovered. They may not know it at first but they sure know it when they realise they are crossing the line.

Affairs are also meant to be kept secret so I don't see any conflict from Harley here. Exposure is a pretty decisive weapon to wield to end an affair.

It's interesting reading opinions on EN's. I don't think EN's not being met causes an affair, but if a partner is not having needs met in the marriage, they are vulnerable to someone outside the marriage meeting those needs.

Remember too it's not all about EN's being met. Harley has 4 basic concepts -

1. Rule of Care (meeting EN's)
2. Rule of Protection (avoiding LB's)
3. Rule of Time - 15hrs/week undivided attention
4. Rule of radical honesty.

I guess a lack in any of these areas helps an affair. Regardless of the reasons, an affair is a choice by the affair partners.

my 2c

ENs relate to making a happy M.

An A is not the RESULT of unhappiness in a M.

It is the result of how a person DEALT with their unhappiness.

Crucial difference.

I disagree.

WSs are in such a state of narcissim, they cannot step outside their own unhappiness to acknowledge the potential pain of their Ss.

I also dont think I personally understood the EXTENT of the pain. PTSS, and pain compared to rape, molestation, and war, no way I understood that! (I don't even think BS could predict the pain it causes!)

(And I am not saying any of this to somehow excuse or disclaim the behavior. Its just that BSs own pain tends to taint how they see the whole situation, so I post to clarify.)

No one, including the Harley's, say that ENs not being met CAUSE the affair.

As Ahuman said, unmet emotional needs cause unhappiness (not affairs). An affair is the way some people choose to deal with their unhappiness.

Harley isnt contradictory. The WS has no intention of getting caught, not because the WS is worried about hurting the BS, but because the WS wants what he/she wants and doesn't want any obstacles put in the way. However, that the BS might find out and be horribly hurt is not a deterrent to the WS in choosing to have an affair.

All you guys,
Thank you for all of your input. To say the least it has been enlightening. Grapegirl...GREAT Analogy about the cookie jar stuff. I've never heard it quite put that way but you got it right, big time. You know, All, writing and reading on this site/forum has been so therapeutic for me and I just want to thank you again. I cannot call up the MC every 5 minutes when I think of something or have questions/problems with something. But it is great to know you guys are all here 24/7. God Bless you all. And Crystal43, it was good to hear your point of view, thank you. I wish you and your H all the luck in the world. As we say here in NJ, you guys need to do a "Sit down"...LOL... I mean it's GREAT to post back and forth on these boards but I think (And this is just my neophyte opinion) you guys need to do a sit-down together, ALONE, without the kids around and tell each other all the stuff that you have been posting here...while it is great (and therapeutic even) that you can even post to each other and read what each other are thinking, I think you still need to be with each other and look each other in the eyes and say it.
my 2c

***I'd convinced myself that I DESERVED to be happy at all costs. Oh...and here's a revelation...I think I'm one of those "conflict avoiders."***

crystal43, thank you for posting. You have illustrated my own theory, which is that Conflict Avoider + Huge Sense of Entitlement = someone ripe for an affair.

Your post jumped out at me because that perfectly describes my own WH.

For the first ten years or so of our relationship and marriage he was a great husband, but once he started climbing the corporate ladder and getting to be a Big Shot his sense of Entitlement went off the charts.

And since he doesn't like to argue, he just got very comfortable with the secrecy and bullsh*t that have to accompany cheating. He lived a double life for a long time and had not one twinge of conscience about it at all.

Is this "fog", or is it a basic character flaw that didn't manifest until conditions were right?
Mulan

Thought...

Do you suppose it could be that the WS has so effectively partitioned his/her actions from his/her morality that the secrecy is because, in a sense, they relate the BS to their conscience...

If that's the case, then keeping the A secret is a way to avoid facing their own guilt AND making their A convenient.

This would imply the cognitive awareness of the wrongness of the A, and the likelihood that it would be devastating to the BS, but without any moral conviction, since the WS will have partitioned and anesthetized that part of their psyche.

Perhaps the WS sees the BS as a threat to the A, selfishly, in that because the marital relationship is a morally healthy relationship, the BS may be able to revive the WS's own conscience.

Even if this is the case, I'm sure it functions on a much deeper level than consciously. Perhaps the taker's selfishness pervades the WS's subconscience to the extent that he/she has instincts that are molded by these motivations. The subconscious intuitive influence idea may help to explain why (a) there are so many dramatic similarities between most A's and (b) why WS's always seem to think that THEIR situation is the one that's different.

Just a thought...

***Do you suppose it could be that the WS has so effectively partitioned his/her actions from his/her morality that the secrecy is because, in a sense, they relate the BS to their conscience...***

Well, sure. Conflict Avoiders manage to avoid conflict *even with themselves* by being very, very good at comparmentalizing -- so good they manage to convince themselves that what they are doing won't affect anyone else.

Unfortunately for the WS, the BS just isn't convinced, and the WS is always shocked and angry and disbelieving when they are not! After all, the WS is convinced -- what is wrong with the BS that they don't believe it, too???!!??

CAs don't just avoid conflict with others. They avoid it with *themselves* and they avoid it through compartmentalizing, rationalizing and fanatasizing. They lie to themselves just as much if not more than they do to others. That's why they are so very, very destructive to their own relationships.

Mulan>found out ten years too late that I was married to a hard-core card-carrying CA

"Thought...

Do you suppose it could be that the WS has so effectively partitioned his/her actions from his/her morality that the secrecy is because, in a sense, they relate the BS to their conscience...

If that's the case, then keeping the A secret is a way to avoid facing their own guilt AND making their A convenient.

This would imply the cognitive awareness of the wrongness of the A, and the likelihood that it would be devastating to the BS, but without any moral conviction, since the WS will have partitioned and anesthetized that part of their psyche.

Perhaps the WS sees the BS as a threat to the A, selfishly, in that because the marital relationship is a morally healthy relationship, the BS may be able to revive the WS's own conscience."

Hey Thought,
I think you are a genius for writing what you wrote here, it hits the nail on the head big time. But I am wondering now, CAN I or AM I, as the BS, able to REVIVE the WS's conscience? And HOW do I do that? Can it even possibly be done by anyone other than the WH himself? Input here, anyone? Thanx