I'm glad you are not running out, however, I did notice that you did not answer my questions...

why are you not divorcing her?

how can you justify living as man and wife (unless you have not had SF since d-day) and still sit on some fence?

I know there are a lot of provoking posts and questions here. Most of them are pretty much asking the same thing. I hope they can help you move forward, no matter which side of the fence you end up deciding to jump into. Of course, i certainly hope that it is the side where your marriage recovers and thrives.

may God's peace be with you as you try to sort it all out. I am very sorry for your pain.

[quote I think those of us who failed to save the marriage really got the easy gig. Recovery is the real fight. Blessings to you.

[/quote]

Believer, I don't really agree with you on this point either. Anyone who has had to endure the betrayal of a partner who made a committment for life does not have an easy gig regardless of the ultimate outcome of the M. To me, whether the BS chooses to remain M or get the D is probably the most difficult choice they will ever have to make. There is no right answer, in many ways I probably felt like I took the easy road to stay in the marriage and rebuild. What I do know for sure is that regardless of what our decision was, we are stronger, better people because we survived and made the best out of a terrible situation.

I trust that you made the best choice for you and I hope that I made the best choice for me. Different choices but neither right or wrong. Just tough.

NT

NT - You don't agree with ANYTHING I say. What's up with that? LOL

But seriously, I think splitting after the betrayal is the easier thing to do. You go on with your life, and you don't have to work on the marriage. However, I don't think it is the RIGHT thing to do in most cases.

Hopefully Cruise will be back posting. Hope I haven't run her off, because I do think they can have a great marriage. I just can empathize with what Todd is feeling and thinking.

I think it is good that Cruise posted here. We're certainly getting lots of opinions. I trust that Todd and Cruise will find what works for them.

Dobie said
Dobie I understand what you are thinking here but remember that similar to my situation, Todd lived without the truth for nine years. I bet that although he didn't know the whole truth during that time that he suspected something but could not bring himself to believe that it was possible with Cruise's faith, profession, etc. However, that nine years that the truth was withheld was probably more destructive to the M and the kids than the current wavering that Todd is showing. Since D-Day they have tried to do the right things i.e. counseling, etc.

It is often said that a marriage can survive an affair but cannot survive dishonesty. I can relate to Todd since I also suspected but didn't know the truth for ten years. I would have never known the truth but the cycle of destructive behavior for both of us created by the compartmentalization of my FWW's secret had eaten away at any semblence of love in our relationship like a cancer to the point that I could not go on any more. It was only when the s*hit hit the proverbial fan and I was ready for either both of us to radically change and have a true marriage or move on myself that the truth came out.

Everyone is ready to cremate Todd for sitting on the fence so long. I am just guessing but I bet that Cruise's secret was a little like cancer to their marriage as well. When the truth finally does come out, it is so far removed from the actual event that both parties have probably rewritten their marital history to some extent just to try and survive the cancer. I encourage Todd to make a decision one way or the other as soon as possible for his own sake. If he chooses to stay and is successful at rebuilding the marriage, he has to make up some years that were lost due to the dishonesty in the marriage. If he choses to go the D route, he deserves time to find someone else that he can find that intimacy in a marriage that he deserves. Either way, the candle is burning.

Now for what I believe that Cruise has got to do on her part to get this process moving forward:

1) Radical honesty. Do not sugar coat the reasons why that you chose to have an affair in order to protect either yourself or Todd. Just lay it out there as best as you can remember and let the chips fall where they may. (Todd, remember that it was a long time ago and Cruise had to live with her mistake for many years prior to coming clean with you. It is possible that some of her reasons and her perception of the marital state at the time of the A is truly forgotten or rewritten as a self preservation mechanism for her to live with her own guilt.)

2) Be willing to accept the consequences of Todd's choice. You made your choice, now he gets to make his. Hopefully you have shown him that the person you were when this affair happened is not the person you are today.

3) Forgive Todd for his part in creating the environment which allowed you to rationalize the A at the time and all the things that may have happened as a result of the walls that you created by keeping the secret for so long. Forgiveness is a two way street.

4) Create an environment where Todd feels safe and protected. When you chose to have the A, you delivered a left hook to your husband and your marriage. When you chose to keep that a secret from him (and any additional dishonesty that resulted from that secret) you sucker punched him in the gut. When you finally did tell him the truth, you kicked him in the crotch. The crotch kick probably hurt the worst but Todd doesn't want any of the three ever again. You have to reassure him that you made a bad choice long ago but show him how and why you could never do that again.

Todd: Getting back to your question of how that you let this go by without changing who you are (action=consequences) there is no easy answer but I will give it a shot. Her choice to have an A is not the defining moment for your marriage. There were serious consequences to her immediately even though you may not realize. Once she made the decision to have an A she became a different person. Once the A ended, she became even a different person. People change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. If Cruise made a serious mistake long ago but except for the inherent dishonesty of keeping her secret for so long has tried to become a better person, try and give her the benefit of the doubt that she has indeed already suffered the consequences of her actions. When you suspected that something was awry after the cruise, did you not take your own occassional sucker punch? I did, way too often. I asked my wife to forgive me of those choices that I made before I even considered forgiving her for her choices. Your defining moment is how you respond to the A, not the A itself or the consequences of the A. Can you be true to yourself and forgive at the same time....I think so. You just have to frame your perception of justice a little differently. Just my $ 5.20 worth.

NT

Funny thing is that most of the time I do agree with most of what you have to say and definately respect your different opinion when I don't. Just seems like on this post we have different perspectives.

I think the important thing for Todd is that he sees both perspectives. The choice is his and not an easy one either way. Even though I consider myself completely recovered and happily married today, not a day goes by that I don't think about if I could have been even happier if I had made the other choice.

One other thing, I have forgiven my wife, but that doesn't mean that I don't have to still fight the temptation to resent what she did. We don't have that many fights anymore because we have learned how to head them off before they get nasty and to respect each others perspective without judgement...but in keeping with radical honesty, I would be lieing to say that sometimes I don't think about bringing up the affair just to get my one up. I bite my tongue every time and even though my tongue is much shorter, for the sake of our marriage, I have been able to keep my resentment and venting limited to this board.

Believer, even when we don't agree...you are one of my favorites... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Todd wrote:


I feel like these things were listed and then all taken very lightly. A few added thoughts:

Ever since I was a little girl, all I wanted in my life was to have children. So after 7 failed in-vetros and 2 failed adoption attempts (one being just after the baby was born- which felt like a stab in the heart)I was feeling very low about the possibility that God would grant us a family and I felt like a complete failure as a woman. I feel at times todd does not understand the magnitied of that alone. Not to mention everything else on top of it.

The weight gain was a result of all of the infertility drugs. My nick name growing up was "stick". I was always very skinny, so for me to have packed on 90lbs. was a huge blow to my self esteem.

Just those two things alone (not to mention we didn't have a great M)in my eyes are HUGE!!! Now todd chooses to look at them as "an excuse" instead of a reason. Who knows but that is where I was at the time and I felt like SH**!! This good looking foreigner made me feel beautiful and actually made me feel like I mattered. Something I recall not feeling from todd at that time (maybe re-written memories, but I don't think so).

I KNOW this (A)will never happen again. Some have asked how can todd be sure that it will not happen again?? Well the circumstances are so very different. We have adopted three beautiful children, I lost alot of weight (put some back on)and I have learned and grown alot about myself and M in the last 2 years. I NEVER want to know that I made someone feel like I made todd feel again! It hurts me everyday knowing that I created doubt in him about himself and in me has really been hard.

For those of you that were afraid you scared me off, you did not!! I am pretty tough and I really want to learn and grow from all of this. I want to have a happy and healthy M more than I can express. Thanks for your support and kind words and also thanks for the tough love. Keep it coming!!!!

Cruise

Hi again Cruise. Actually I do think the attempts at invitro had something to do with the way you felt. I have seen 4 or 5 other women here that strayed after failed attempts.

One of my favorite posters - Brett - had a wife that left him and divorced him after many failed attempts to have a baby. They had a nice home, good jobs, and seemed to have everything, and she left for a man that had been married 3 times and was a handyman.

I always suspected that it was mostly about her feelings about herself. I think that folks who have not experienced this have no idea how it feels. It is similar to the higher rate of infidelity for women after a miscarriage.

Cruise:

You may or may not get positive responses from others about whether this was the "cause" of your A, but I believe that for many, if not most women, admiration is an EN that is very much desired by the woman but hardly ever mentioned as a top five EN.

I read into your post that this was an ego boosting A (I think that the majority are if you really get down to it). IMHO, women who have an A due to low self esteem and the need for admiration from others (especially men) are less likely to have another affair. The reason for this is that they crave the need that they feel is missing in the M. They then act out of character and have an A thinking that it will fill that need ( it probably does in the short term) but since the A is a fantasy that cannot be sustained, the drug of the A just doesn't have enough effect to justify the choice. Consequently they tend to be extremely remorseful and shamed and that in itself may tend to prolong the truth coming out. However, I believe in most cases like this the truth will come out eventually because the weight of the dishonesty just adds to the shame.

No offense to any FWW's here but as a BS, I would feel much better about staying with my wife if her choice (which is still just as bad as any other reason for having an A) was driven by that need for admiration. Coupled with true repentance, I think it would be far less likely to reoccur than a casual friendship turned love fest where both partners believed they found their soul mate. I have followed Dazed thread here since the beginning. I can tell you that there is no way that I would have stayed the distance in his circumstance. But in my individual circumstance, when the first tidal wave of emotion was digested after D-day it was relatively easy to make a decision and move forward.

I guess my message for Todd in this is to think about the different situations that affairs start in and Cruise needs to help you understand more if hers is like I described above. Then after this discussion has occurred rethink your absolute action/judgement/consequences stance.

Are all adulterers due the same consequences? If not, what makes one type of A worse or better than another? Is a ONS worse than and LTA?

The reason why I bring this up is that when you read Dazed thread and what he has done to bring his wife back from an A that she believed she was with her soul mate, I think that he would probably tell you that he was able to commit to trying to save his marriage because his wife made a mistake due to what she thought was "true love". I would have left in a heartbeat. My FWW had a similar encounter for many of the same reasons as your wife but continued the R for about 9 months after the intitial trip. Is my wife more guilty than yours because she continued? In my sitch, by admission of both parties, there really was no love involved although they cared deeply for each other but wanted to keep their current spouse due to how they felt about their spouse as a parent. Both OM and my FWW wanted to be able to have their personal cake and keep their spouse as the father/mother of their kids. Ludicrous. Dazed would probably never have worked at his marriage if his wife had this reasoning, but for me it was much easier than if there had been real consideration of leaving me for someone else. To me, as big as a blow as it was to find out what happened, I took some comfort in the fact that after time my FWW on her own could not continue with a dual life and chose me (clearly the better choice) over OM (really not much of a choice).

In a nutshell, I understand how you arrive with your absolutism, but after hearing Cruise's side of the story, I think that there is more that she is saying than you are hearing.

NT

Todd and I discussed this last night. For him the ONS is much worse than the LTA. He says that he can understand the LTA because they are typically a frienship turned into an A over time. The fact that I had just met the guy that night and had an A a few hours later is very difficult for him to understand. I think I can understand this. However, I think for me if the roles were reversed the idea that he had feelings or was "in love" with someone else would eat away my heart. Just my perspective.

Gotta run, but will post more later,
Cruise

To me a ONS would be much easier to forgive than a LTA. The fact that my WH "loved" the OW was much worse for me.

Greetings...I have followed this and decided I must comment now about the above. HORSE HOCKEY as the colonel would say on M*A*S*H.

Is there a difference between these two Affairs? Sure...but I found out about my xw's affair AFTER our divorce. I suspected, even had a huge fight when she was out of town because of my suspicions. But she never confessed until it was a prerequisite to reconciling. I found out 5-6 years later. Originally thought to be "casual out of town hook ups" it turned out to really be an EA/ PA that lasted a year...and I will tell you...that was worst. Not only did she live a lie for years regarding the affair she also was deceptive and lying about numerous actions for a period of over a year...I'll tell you it was worse for me to know that....Did she love him? She tells me no....but I am pretty sure she wanted to....she also tells me "he knows I was a mess"....well I knew that too...even then...just not why....heck, she was bitter I never caught her because I was too wrapped up in my own world....

And the reason that it happened was self esteem...she did not feel loved by me. We did not meet EN's...justified, no way....just a reason..

So...I for one would tell Todd that he is hanging on to something that is easy to hang onto...trying to "understand"...why??....HOW??? I have come to accept that the answers to those questions may never arrive...so I look forward....and I am OK with that...

good luck folks

I think that whatever kind of A your spouse had is the "worst" kind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My H had some of each and both kinds suck in their own special ways.

Not sure I understand this statement...

Cruise

Well, I guess you're firmly in the camp that believes a LTA is worse than a ONS (or perhaps I misunderstand?). I believe you 100% -- for you a LTA is worse. I have told Cruise that I believe the ONS would be worse (for me) given what I know about myself. Of course, I don't really know, as Cruise has never has a LTA to my knowledge. Perhaps I would find that I am wrong were I faced with that reality.

However, I have certain characteristics that lead me to conclude this about myself:

1) I am described by our counselor as "emotionally unavailable" and I myself would agree that I am not an emotional person by any means -- therefore I suspect that the "emotional" aspects that come with a LTA simply would not register with me the same way it would for others. For me, the shock is less emotional than illogical.

2) I have self-esteem issues -- my particular set of these ensures that I am crushed by the idea that Cruise could so easily fall into bed with the OM; I feel like so much used garbage, as it were.

3) I had a particular set of beliefs about Cruise -- specifically, she draws energy from friendships, while I draw energy from solitude; therefore I could more easily see her allowing a friendship to stray too far, while the concept that she would "hook up with a stranger" was so totally foreign to me. I guess what I am saying is that the pain is worse because it was so far removed from my beliefs. Like the sting of losing a game of skill to a child would be greater than the sting of losing to a "worthy opponent" simply because losing to the child was completely unexpected.

I hope this helps explain what I mean.

Todd

Oh, and BTW...

The pain of Cruise's years of deception is far worse than the pain of the A itself.

When I reread this statement I understood why it might not be clear. After I found out about my xw's PA I "held onto" certain things that would keep me angry. But the reality is I I don't believe in the concept of "letting it go" either. I went through stages where everything was a trigger. LAs Vegas, private planes and jets, an area indian owned casino, and her job are all triggers for me now. She pulled her worst acts when I went on trips (that generally coincided with her work trips) with our children or by myself to special events, huge events (one being the first night race held at Daytona)so I have all these memories (shirts, hats, photos of the boys, video, you know the whole gambit. Well, shortly after D-day I would hang onto getting upset over race weekends or events at those places. Now, imagine that I am also a member of the media who has to report on these events every week! My IC told me that I could get upset at ANYTHING if I wanted to, there was no "right or wrong reason to be upset or what triggers it". My point in saying the above was that Todd is "focusing" on the fact it was "stranger, ONS type of thing". Having gone through the shock of finding out xw did have a A, first thought to be an F-buddy as I called it to further truths indicating a full blown EA/PA that lasted a year I know that the later was harder to accept.

The sex part of her A doesn't bother me as much as one would think because the few times it happened was because it was what he wanted. She wanted the EA part and did the other because it was what he wanted, it was dysfunctional. Does the years of h3ll I endured after her A anger me, the lies and deception afterwards (half of our marriage ALSO wa a lie)...yes..but I keep asking ...how...could she? Through IC I learned that I have been able to go on without that answer in so many other aspects of my life (in relation to an emotionally abusive mother) then why can't I accept that I won't get the answer on how could she????

Further, 2 years ago I was VERY single, divorced and a pretty decent looking 38 year old man. I had meaningless SF, meaning that I had no intention and neither did my partner of having anything other than SF. This is not the place to discuss the morales of that. Looking back I do not feel real good about my actions but.....and here I am justifying it? Make sense? I can if you want...I was lonely, been knocked own, degraded, etc....just like many folks who have an affair...the main difference was I was unmarried! Sure, a monster difference than people who engage in adultry but...I now have a very different perspective don't I??? Is it an excuse for cheating.....NO! There in NONE!!!

Todd, I can't tell you what is best for you. I can only relate my own personal story and how I dealt with it. Understand, I do not believe that I will ever think of her acts and think of forgiveness. They're unforgivable, despicable acts of betrayal. What I do is look forward now. With all that my xw and I have gone through WE are soulmates who went very bad for a spell. The grass is not greener elsewhere! And that is my advice to you. Work through this. Do not think "you'll get over it"...get through it and look forward, either way you must do this. Even if this goes to plan D you'll still be just as upset about "what she did"....What I try and do is not "go back"

Does any of that make sense??

Todd...I understand that this is how it effects you and how we may be different. My point is that there are many different things that can "make it harder to understand or even accept. Like, using the bed you share, having an affair while spouse is pregnant, having sex in vehicle with baby seats still in car, etc. It never ceases to amaze me what we do do each other. Bottom line is you have been betrayed. What "bothers" you most...may change in time...but it will always bother you. I gave my advice so that perhaps you can look at it objectively and move forward....as I said earlier, you can be "stuck" where you are right now until the day you die.

oops -- Todd used Cruise's login...let's try it again

I'll try this with my own login...


S&C -- I'll try to answer a few questions...


God determines the consequences and he doesn't tell me what they are.



Does not apply - see above.


I have no answer for this. Perhaps you are right -- I may have to divorce her, but I do not want to divorce her. Perhaps I am being selfish by remaining in the marriage.


I don't know...only God does. That is part of the problem.

Hope that clears things up a bit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm, you don't the consequences, only God does? Maybe she already paid them and God knows that. Where does that leave you?