Todd,
I think you may have the concept of forgiveness backwards... this isn't a gift you give someone that wrongs you... but a gift you give YOURSELF...
I believe that God's rules and Jesus' examples are for US not for him or those that hurt us... why not commit adultry...look at the pain it causes YOU...
Why forgive...because until you do... YOU are hurting YOURSELF....after a while the person you won't forgive is numb to it... but are YOU? You relive the pain OVER and OVER.
That's why you should forgive...to stop hurting YOURSELF...
GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

Todd, forgiveness requires the predicate of repentance.

Sin, must be "confronted" and "standing for God" is required of believers.

Jesus did both, as in the clearing of the temple and in forgiving the ONE thief on the cross next to His.

"70*7" refers to forgiving a "brother/sister in Christ" who REPENTS of their sin against you. It is NOT, in my humble opinion a command for "blanket forgiveness without repentance."

still here...no time to respond yet

I do believe that todd needs to forgive for himself but I do not agree with the numb comment!! I can not imagine that in my life time that I would be numb to the unforgiveness, possibly because I live for the day that he does forgive me and it weigh VERY heavy on my heart EVERY single day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


I guess I have some small issue with this seeing that it is his choice to forgive or not. Do you think he would choose to not forgive if it was REALLY hurting him that much?? Just a question...

We are understanding more and more the differences in our personalities. He is a 5 and I am a 2 for those of you that are up on that stuff. We are opposite in many respects so it is hard for me to really understand why he would hurt himself. Maybe some 5's out there can explain it to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Cruise

Cruise, Personally, I don't believe in the Eanegram? stuff.
The only personality we are to have is a Christlike one.
As a Christian believer, I am so careful not to get tossed to and fro with personality doctorines. Those things do not define a person.

Lady

I don't think they define a person but I do think that it can help people understand the differences and how to better deal with a different personality. As we were reading ours we thought that many of the characteristics were relevent and others were not. I am hoping that in studying some of those a little more closely that I learn how to better understand and in turn communicate with todd.

Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But remember there is one faith, one Lord, one Babtism.

The words of our Lord are to be likeminded. To be of the same mind.

I wish H and I were of the same mind in the Lord. I am of the same mind with many in the church, but when it comes to H it's not there ever since his fall. I hope someday we will have that special oneness again so close that we really will have the same mind of Christ together. It's a spiritual thing, not a personality thing.

Blessings,
Lady

Ladysheep,

You might enjoy reading the reviews of this book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0824519...5Fencoding=UTF8

Take care!

Stillwed

Cruise,
These are a few books that I have and that have been helpful to me through the years to understand the differences between my husband and myself. I go back and reread them from time to time when I find myself getting frustrated. These are all written from a Christian perspective and help explain the different temperaments and how to relate to each other. You might be able to find some of these or others at the library.

Personality Plus by Florence Littauer
After Every Wedding Comes a Marriage by Florence Littauer
Why You Act the Way You Do by Tim LaHaye
Spirit Controlled Temperament by Tim LaHaye
The Spirit Controlled Woman by Beverly LaHaye

LadySheep
I agree that everyone should strive to be like Christ but that doesn't mean we should all strive to be the same. There are different gifts for each person. Not everyone has the temperament to be a leader or teacher or healer, etc. We are all a part of the body and not one is any better or more important than the other. (1 Corinthians 12)

As frustrating as differences can be, life would be very boring if we were all exactly the same.

The above is a review quoted by one who had read the book.

"Many Christians feel uneasy about the Enneagram as a way of deepening self-awareness; this is mostly because the test has some connections to the Sufi religion and new age thought."

It sounded very new age to me too, and that is what I was concerned about. Yes..God has given each believer gifts to walk in given by the Holy Spirit. Each are created uniquely by God, nevertheless we have a gospel that shows us how to live out the principles set by God, and how to be set free (redeemed) from besetting sin. He (Christ) who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

That is true, and I wouldn't think otherwise. I'm very thankful for each believer in the body, and each gift. And teachers in the Body have to be extra careful in what they teach because they recieve a greater judgement. I don't think God created the Eannegram to define the personalities he has given us. I was reading yesterday about the ministry gifts such teachers, prophets, evangelists, pastors, apostles...etc...I do think it's important that each believer know thier calling, and gifts but I don't think the Eannegram is going to show that.




What I meant is we are to be of the same mind concerning the Kingdom of God, and God's Word. Being one, having the mind of Christ...etc. I don't believe God set out 9 different personality types in people. Example... I don't believe Todds lack of forgiveness to Cruise is a justification for his personality type...etc.

And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctorine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ.

I am here at MB because I believe that the teaching here to be biblical in every way. I believe that the Harleys are truly gifted by God, and set biblical principles into thier teaching, and counsel. But I'm gonna have to stay away from the Eannegram thing.

Blessings,
Lady

I'm not endorsing the Enneagram ideas because I agree with you, it seems very New Age and not spiritual based. That's why I suggested some books with a biblical base.


God did make us all different. I don't think that she meant to excuse his lack of forgivness based on his personality, she's just trying to understand why he has a harder time getting to that point. There isn't anything wrong with trying to understand what makes each other tick. Isn't that the idea behind HNHN? Knowing what each other needs? and how best to meet those needs?
It helps if you understand why one person reacts more emotionally and another seems more detached. It doesn't mean that either is right or wrong or that the emotional one has been hurt more because it's all out in the open. If you know that about your mate then you can save yourself much heartache and grief. That's all I'm trying to suggest. Learn about your differences and instead of viewing them as faults and in a negative light, appreciate them and learn how to relate to those differences.

Just for giggles, I took it and had a tie between a 2 -Helper and 9 -Peacemaker. I'd say that it describes me well.

However, I can see and have seen where someone has done it and has used it to intrench themselves in an unhealthy behavior. They have said, "this is how I am, I can change that." Or they have used to to justify their actions which have been unhealthy for a M.

Scripture tells us to train our children in the wy they should go, or according to the way they are bent. this tells me that every person has curtain traits and we do need to understand what they are in order to instruct them properly. In that respect I think personality tests are helpful. I think we can take these use them, but they must be tempered with the Spirit of God and used with it's guidance. Doesn't all wisdom come from God? We have the ability to take the wise part of something and sift it from that which isn't as useful.

I just hope that Todd doesn't use what he knows about his personality as an excuse not to follow the instructions given to him as a Christian by God.

BTW Todd, I'm still wondering if you are going to respond to my questions on a previous post?

Blessings.

S&C

Ladysheep,

Actually, the idea behind the Enneagram is to SHED our personality types to reveal what is underneath them (not to use them as an excuse). We can't change what we won't acknowledge. If we learn about our own tendencies (via whatever source), we can then have an awareness about ourselves that lead us to be all that we can be.

The biggest thing the Enneagram has helped me with is compassion and empathy. That is definitely something I believe that God would approve of and something I've felt a lack of in some Christian circles today. It seems to go right along with, "Let him without sin cast the first stone." If I have compassion on the sinner, it allows the sinner to feel that God-like love in a very real sense and hopefully will make them want what I have.

When I look at what my H did, I see a man with a child inside himself that never grew up. Yes, the man did have choices in his adult life, but he didn't get to choose the lousy childhood he had. This helped me to be compassionate and loving toward him even when his behavior didn't warrant it. Because he was also willing to understand how he developed many parts of his personality, he was able to look back and use that information to heal the wounds underneath them and then GROW UP! Wow! Profound and yet so simple! Now I really don't have to worry about him cheating again because he doesn't have any desire to. The motivation for cheating has been healed. God led my H to this wonderful source of information so that he could heal and be the man of integrity that God desires him to be. (And just for the record, he was extremely well studied in the scripture BEFORE any of his affairs!)

Our personalities are like a bunch of dominoes...set up to go off in various directions depending on which one goes down first. We have power over dominos! We can stop them once they start by putting our foot down on their path, but if we DO NOT stop them, they will continue to play out a very predictable pattern. THAT is what the Enneagram is all about.

The one thing I hear from most people who begin to study the Enneagram is that they are amazed at the profound accuracy of it. It's simply the explanation of human nature. God became man. What's wrong with undertanding that? He apparently felt that the experience was very important! Maybe as we become more like Him, we need to understand the experience we are having in the present...the gift before us.

I used to be very fearful of concepts I didn't completely understand. Now I realize that not being "tossed to and fro" does not mean that I shouldn't investigate new thought processes. It means that I should make sure that it lines up with my beliefs as I investigate. I have every confidence that God will guide me and will give me what I need to find His truth if I ask Him. There was a time when the Catholic church didn't even trust it's members to properly interpret the Bible. It seems to me that this is how some Christians choose to interpret this scripture. It goes back to believing that only the clergy can interpret truth and I don't believe that.

Adultery and affairs are rampant in the church...not to mention many other sinful things. Should we abandon it? On the contrary, we should strive to understand why, and bring ourselves closer to God in the process.

I won't say anymore about this because I don't want to threadjack this important discussion. I'm bad about that!

Stillwed

Todd,

Are you and Cruise still around?

How are you all doing?

S&C

still here...had a busy weekend

I did see a hynotherapist today. Honestly, I'm a little leery of such things. But I figured - "what the heck" - if it can provide any insight into my childhood that helps me reach a decision point sooner. If not, at least it will have been interesting.

No breakthrough today, but I'll go back Saturday. It was quite strange, but I am really working hard to "let go" and allow my subconcious to reveal anything lying dormant there.

Todd

Ya'll...

We are still here! Just had a busy weekend. I posted some on In Recovery. Any added advice would be good, especially about todd's post from the other day.

Todd's post (In recovery):
Any thoughts on his post would be awesome!

I also received some posts from "In Recovery" that I wanted to throw out to you all here on GQII.

How do I create a M in which todd can feel "safe" enough to allow me into his heart and still be the real cruise?? I ask this because I know for todd that it is REALLY important to him that I am always REAL!! Sometimes I feel like crap!!! How do I deal with that and still create this safe space for him??? I really want to do this!! I want him to feel like he can allow MY love to help recover and heal him, not someone else!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
Cruise

Todd, get ready for my 2x4s.

I already chewed you out a year or two ago about this subject.

Cruise's A was many years ago. She has tried to be a good wife since then. Many of us BHs can only wish we had a wife as good as her. (Actually, I have one now, not the WXW.)

Stop holding her an emotional captive. Stop your whining, be a man, and be a husband.

Good grief, with your attitude, she should have left you long ago.

RAG

I was "a man" as you describe it for many years to the detriment of our M. I did not "whine" to a MC, because, I was "being a man". That obviously didn't work.

Frankly, I consider myself more of a man for accepting the responsibility to dig deep into my past and learn about the man I brought into the M. That man may or may not end up M to Cruise, but that man will be true. I think a "boy" walks away, but a "man" stays and works hard to understand before rashly impacting the lives of his W and children.

Todd

Hi Todd,

Welcome back.

I know you're looking at your past to see what was brought into the M and that's admirable. But what I believe is more important is; what kind of man will you bring to the M from this point on to make it stronger? Do you bring the old man, or do you figure out what kind of a man should be brought into the M and work to be that man?

I believe you have a fear of betraying your "Core beliefs". But, if it was the core beliefs of the "old man" that had contributed to the state the M is in now, shouldn't you re-evaluate those beliefs and line them up with beliefs that will allow you to be a man but yet love, honor and cherish Cruise?

BTW - I'm still waiting for your response to questions I posted earlier. Will you be able to respond to them?

Bless you.

S&C

I think the real need right now is to understand who the "old" man was. What were his weaknesses, strengths, failings, accomplishments, etc. And before I can answer what kind of man will I bring to the M from this point forward, I have to decide what kind of man I will go forward with in life, regardless of whether that man remains M'd to Cruise.

Yes -- I should re-evaluate those beliefs. That is exactly the process I am going through. However, it would be foolish to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" as it were. I have always had a core belief of honesty (you might even say "radical honesty"). Should I just throw out that old belief? Of course not! I need to work through the process of carving out the bad parts while retaining the good parts -- all the while avoiding killing the "patient."

Not sure what you're looking for here. If it relates to the Matthew reference, I'll say this:

For the first part -- yes, I followed that process (if Cruise's admission and remorse constitutes following that process).

For the second part -- that does not get to the point of HOW forgiveness is given. It only tells about the frequency.

And on a related note...Kahuna -- I don't find where the adulterous woman in you example ASKED for forgiveness. But yet it was given. So how do we say that ASKING must be required? Therefore, why did Jesus not forgive the moneychangers at the temple? If ASKING is not a requirement, then he could have immediately forgiven...but he didn't.

Todd