Greetings!
I have been with my wife for 6 yrs, married for 3.5 yrs. We are both mid-thirties, white, catholic, no kids and both of our parents stayed together. We met each other while we were both 14-15 yrs into relationships that had deteriorated over that time to become irreconcilable. Her first marriage lasted about 2 yrs, mine about 5 yrs. So, second marriages for both of us. We are best friends most of the time and laugh with and care for each other. But, we both see trends from our previous relationships that we don't want to repeat. We have told each other recently that despite everything that has happened, we still want to try to make things work.

We knew that we would have trust issues to deal with from the start as we have both proved to one another that we are capable of lying and breaking promises (products of infidelity). This was not my style and still isn’t. I don’t lie or cheat as a habit; I only did for a while, at the end of my past relationship to keep the current one alive.

I tried to talk to her Tuesday night about something that was bothering me. She had told a lie to me early in the day on Sunday and I found out that evening that she had lied earlier. Now, it wasn’t a major lie, only one of those white ones. So, I tabled it for a couple of days and addressed it with her when we got home from work on Tuesday. I explained that something was bothering me and I would like to discuss it.

I told her that I was hurt and didn’t understand why she didn’t trust me enough to discuss what it was that she lied to me about. For me, this totally wrecks the whole trust thing. Even small lies annoy the ****** out of me and make me suspicious for days, even weeks at a time. It causes me to question her more frequently about her comings and goings. This annoys the ****** out of her. Then, I still wonder if she is telling me the truth. Then she tells me that I am a “control freak” because I need to know what she’s doing, where she is, and who she’s with. I know she has an inner voice that tells her when she feels she is not doing the right thing. And it manifests as a lie and it seems like it comes easy to her. Though, I can usually sense when she is lying and the evidence is usually in plain sight. She wants me to dismiss it like it’s no big deal. In fact, she would be much more comfortable if I didn’t say anything at all.

She told me recently that I have helped her with her trust issues that she has had all her life. I asked her how I did that. She couldn’t really identify how I had done that. So, I can only assume that because I am always reliable and dependable when it comes to my word are the main reasons for this. I always try my best to be radically honest, check in with her a couple times a day, be where I say I will be on time, etc. I make a conscious decision not to check out other women when I am with her. I never look at porn or even swimsuit issues because I know she doesn't like me to. These are not huge sacrifices for me but I do them out of love and respect for the woman that I am with. Plus, I don't want any other women and I don't want her to feel in any way that I do. I want her to give me the same ability to trust as I have given her.

She gets angry sometimes and when she is, she has a propensity to assault me with her words and actions. These take the form of name calling, threats, saying things just to hurt the other person, breaking items in the home, throwing things at me, etc. These are huge LB withdrawals. Usually, I don't retaliate with the same treatment. And, when I don't, I think that she sees I am not overreacting to her outbursts and it causes her to get worse, trying to get me to anger. I don't think she understands how it feels to be me when she gets that way. It makes me uncomfortable to be around her when she gets like that. I would rather stay cool and try to work through the issue that we are having at the time.

I also am quite guarded with what I say around her as I don't want to initiate an angry response from her. Whenever I need to bring up a problem I always am especially sensitive to how it will affect her.

Usually, when I address a problem, all sorts of other things are thrown up, almost a smokescreen to the issue at hand. If I tell her that something is bothering me, you can bet that she has something bothering her that she wants to share immediately. As a result, the issue gets clouded, and nothing gets resolved for either of us.

Actually, it seems the deeper we get with an issue, the more it repeats itself she gets angrier. We never have had the tools to work through a problem we are having and as a result they have compounded. We haven’t had the tools to negotiate with each other and come to an understanding or compromise. She has a hard time recognizing my hurt and apologies are rare. In fact, I have to coax them out of her, they are never forthcoming. If I do get that far, there is very rarely any agreement not to repeat the behavior. She tells me, basically, if I don’t like it I can divorce her. I see this as a defense mechanism to protect her desired behavior not a real desire for divorce.

I don’t know if anyone has any advice for me about this. I would like to keep moving forward in our love and marriage. But, the setbacks are nearly devastating and the repercussions last for days and weeks. She is still half-cocked that I brought up the issue on Tuesday and I am sick of feeling this way.
Thanks,
TB

Couple of questions:

"I don’t lie or cheat as a habit; I only did for a while, at the end of my past relationship to keep the current one alive."

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think it is important.

" I don't retaliate with the same treatment. And, when I don't, I think that she sees I am not overreacting to her outbursts and it causes her to get worse, trying to get me to anger."

Have you read the Lovebusters section? You have assumed in this statement that she reacts to your nonreacting for a reason you don't know. Finding out why she escalates when you do not respond in kind is very important.

"She has a hard time recognizing my hurt and apologies are rare. In fact, I have to coax them out of her, they are never forthcoming."

Has she said she has a hard time recognizing your hurt? Has she said that she rarely apologizes? Are you truly able to get her to apologize against her will?

Are you asking for advice on how to negotiate issues? Or how to get her to stop her LBing? Maybe just in general, you'd like to discover why your marital communication is caught in a loop, including distrust, a little lying, and a lot of frustration?

LA

"I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think it is important."

Lets just say I haven't lied to or cheated on my wife. My past relationship was built on trust but, when some of my other needs weren't been met in that relationship I went to look elsewhere. I destroyed the trust and the marriage fell apart. I wasn't willing to work on anything with my ex-wife at that point I was emotionally divorced. It has definitely spilled over into the current situation.

"Have you read the Lovebusters section? You have assumed in this statement that she reacts to your nonreacting for a reason you don't know. Finding out why she escalates when you do not respond in kind is very important."

Yeah, I have read the whole website at least once through and have interalized some of it. I plan to read through again though. Not sure she will do the same as she seems to be in a state of withdrawl right now. And, I'm not going to be able to keep this up to keep getting smacked down.

I wish I knew why things escalate. I think when we talk about an issue she she tries to bring to many other issues into the fray which gets her heated. And, I feel like the harder I try to remain pleasant and accomodating, the more reason she has to act out and be thoughtless. It's almost like she thinks, "okay, I'm winning this now, time to go in for the kill." At the time I do bring up a problem she is usually quiet about it, prefering the situation to correct itself or me to just forget about it.

I want to keep thing light, not be an enormous burden on her but the more I ask of her, the more she refuses to compromise. In some ways like a child to the point of rudeness. I think she looks at compromise as losing something, not mutual agreement and a win-win.

"Has she said she has a hard time recognizing your hurt? Has she said that she rarely apologizes? Are you truly able to get her to apologize against her will?"

No, she hasn't said this. I only get that feeling through her words and actions. I've explained that I hurt and try tell her why and it gets her angry. On the apology side, not really has she said anything, and I have not been able to get any sincere apology out of her as long as I remember.

"Are you asking for advice on how to negotiate issues? Or how to get her to stop her LBing? Maybe just in general, you'd like to discover why your marital communication is caught in a loop, including distrust, a little lying, and a lot of frustration?"

I think I am most intersted in the later. I want to know why we can't get anywhere in our marital communication. I'm sure that she feels the frustration as much as I.
Thanks,
TB

Zax,

Thank you for your answers to my questions. I was re-reading your first post again and I wanted to point to this:

"But, we both see trends from our previous relationships that we don't want to repeat."

This statement goes to a philosophy, and I need to be clear on it--you both see trends that you don't want to repeat. During previous relationships, did anyone tell you that people aren't replaceable? That when you leave relationships you will recreate them again and again? I tell you this now because you are seeking to change your trends. The reason you "find" yourself in a similar relationship turmoil is because you take you with you.

I believe that relationships aren't about the other person, they are about ourselves.

So, that's where I'm coming from. If you see trends, are they your tendencies? You have to decide if you're reacting to same stuff different person, if only the other person would behave better you would react differently, or if reacting is your problem.

"Maybe just in general, you'd like to discover why your marital communication is caught in a loop, including distrust, a little lying, and a lot of frustration?"

If a lot of the frustration, disrespect and pain you are feeling is from facing these same things from different people again and again (the loop), then you are in luck! The common element is you and you have power over you, in you, and no one can control you. To break the loop, I had to first see what the loop was--like you, I felt if I was more contained during arguments, then I would be treated better. Kept trying different things, too. I used my effort and lack of success as evidence that I cared more.

I see Lovebusters not being just about actions...to me, they are about beliefs. If you believe that she is responsible for your feelings as you are for hers, then you've given yourself permission to lovebust with assumptions, mindreading and disrespectful judgments. They might even feel like an expression of love to you or as if you're defending your self-respect.

Unfortunately, when you have this belief (and maybe you didn't know you had it), you distrust your partner deeply because you assume they have the same belief, intent and are just not willing to do it right. Lack of their cooperation can feel like an attack. The distrust can also come from you realizing that this process is all about not trusting yourself. If you are each responsible for what the other person thinks and feels, and you have no control over another person, where does that leave you?

I have this perception from your posts because I hear, "If I do this, she does this. When I try this, she still does this." That would be choosing your actions based on how another person might react. Very shaky ground and full of distrust (rightfully so).

"I destroyed the trust and the marriage fell apart." You own your past actions and know how powerfully they affected your marriage. Owning your actions and knowing you choose them is essential to breaking this reactive dance you have with other people. Great start. Here is what to avoid: "when some of my other needs weren't been met in that relationship I went to look elsewhere." You chose to remedy your painful emotions by looking elsewhere. That would be owning not just the destruction that resulted, but that you chose your action. And you decided due to what another person was not doing for you. See where allowing your own responsibility reside in others gets you? A lot of pain, feeling choiceless, and still believing if you just find a better fit, a special person, you've solved your problem. Stands to reason that you will recreate the same exact pain again becuase you still believe another person can make you happy (and therefore, sad, miserable, angry, frustrated, give you self-esteem, etc.).

How can you really believe these unfounded beliefs? Well, it's easy. We're human. And we have an immense capacity to lie to ourselves and not even know it, if we do it often enough. That's where the lying comes in between the two of you, to yourselves. When you predicate your contentment on the other person (if she would just listen to me, apology, agree with me, recognize, compromise), then whether you are happy or not is always out of your hands. Makes the pain of our actions (which we know we're responsible for) less when we're blamed, which soothes a bit of guilt or shame. There's a payoff--I just don't believe it is nearly enough.

Lying feels like protection but it is like coating your body in poison to kill a rash on your hand. "I try to remain pleasant and accomodating..." When you are in a disagreement, are you doing this because you feel pleasant and agree with her? Or is your motive to control her--soothe, stay calm, acquiesce? Avoid bad reactions? Saying your "I" statements of your thoughts and feelings, owning them as your own, is the key to good communication. "I feel like this is a competition to you and I often feel like a loser when we discuss issues. I feel fearful of your reactions and angry at what I hear as DJs and AOs." If that's your truth, then say it. You can say it calmly, even pleasantly, if you desire. But no accomodating if those are your true feelings. Your truth only comes from being true to yourself and telling it. No lies to yourself will make it extremely difficult to lie to another person.

When you're saying what you think and feel for the purpose to share and inform, the frustration and old reactions won't rise up and overpower you. Well, at first they might, but as you do it more and more, practice will give you peace.

And when you listen to her, repeat what you heard and give her the opportunity to clarify. A lot of frustration and anger is feeling unheard or judged. Her frustration will be much less, also. There's the start.

What I thought was important was if you had divorced and married the woman you had an affair with and weren't willing to be truthful (fear of other people not helping you because of that), then you aren't really here to grow. You would be here to try to ease your pain. Telling the truth changes what you get out of life.

LA