Newstart,

Sorry I could not offer you anything useful to your situation. I am realizing that you actually have everything figured out.

God Bless,

JL

I think what JL is saying and I am trying to say - you will get more effort out of him if you are honest and you put NO expectations on him - stop telling him what he has to do. Stop controlling it

Work on yourself and watch what happens!!! Only saying it cause anyone of us FWW's could have written your post word for word when we each first came here...you aren't any different than the rest of us, as unique as you feel...

keep reading, and even if we make you mad - consider all we have to say.

What JL was telling you was some REAL insight into how your husband feels and how is works, and you turned around to what your husband DOES NOT DO and what you WANT him to do...the biggest way to get changes out of your husband is to try to understand HIM and how he shows love and how he reacts and acts...

Newstart...

[color:"black"]If [color:"red"]you[/color] change nothing, nothing will change...[/color]

Mrs. Wondering

well mrs W - isn't that the way to summarize my 10 million words...

GOOD JOB! LOL

Mrs. W is SOOOO right - she said what I am triing to say in 7 words!!!!!

JL,

Boy, you may not have helped Newstart, but sure helped ME!! Thanks for that post.

Ahuman,

I am glad I was of use. When it all gets said and done it is all about perspective, not right or wrong. I don't mean there is not right or wrong, but after that is sorted out, the real effort must be expended on perspective.

God Bless,

JL

I just don't know what it is I'm supposed to do or how I'm supposed to change (sob). I feel like I'm trying everything I can think of, approaching it as calmly and positively as possible, but nothing seems to work! How can I change when I don't know what I'm supposed to change? Dorry, you sound like a fantastic person and you seem to have your plan in order. JL, I know I make you angry, and I'm sorry for that. I'm truly at a loss and am not intentionally being argumentative and difficult. It is difficult for all of us to see each other's point of view when we don't know the people involved. Ironically, people who know us would tell you that I'm the relaxed, happy-go-lucky, loving one of the two of us and H tends to be very controlling and "crusty." You all keep trying to tell me something, but it's out of my grasp what it is. How do I meet his needs when he won't tell me what they are? Can I ever expect him to meet mine, or is this a lifelong sacrifice? You're right about my marriage not being all bad. Of course it wasn't. There were times when I was really content in my marriage, but the underlying problems have been there since day one. This has obviously brought them into the forefront. I totally agree that he's hurt, angry, embarassed, and doesn't want to discuss it. I understand and respect those feeling (although I'm assuming this is how he's feeling, as he hasn't said). My fear is not getting through the next few weeks/months, but that what your saying is that this may be who he is (not the present feelings, but the lack of communication, not meeting needs, etc.) and that I should just accept him as he is and support him and treat him lovinging (which is what I'm currently doing) and that somehow this will make him change and want to meet my needs. In our married life that hasn't even hinted at happening. I'm scared! Please don't be frustrated with me... explain as clearly as you can exactly how I'm approaching this wrong, and how you think I should act. I can't promise to automatically agree with you, but know that sometimes when I'm questioning or disagreeing I'm just confused with what you're saying and trying to get a clearer picture. Also, sometimes I think you don't get my situation entirely either (JL, my H really isn't as you described him, although some of his reactions/feeling may be. We aren't American, but we're not that different). Bear with me!

Hun - 13 months later and I am still learning what I have to change...a work in progress. It's not easy - its one baby step at a time. It requires alot of self analyzing. Are you happy with who you are right now? It's not your husbands fault if you aren't...while he is there to provide some happiness - you have to figure out what in you is causing you to fail. You instead are looking at everything else - the marriage, him, the affair, life. Start looking at you. It wont be easy and you may only find one small thing at a time to change...but work at it.

You will fail often too at those changes - but keep them up - this is not for HIM or your MARRIAGE - but for YOU. It will change all your relationships in life and your relationship with yourself. You do not have very much respect for yourself right now to have allowed yourself to do what you did - entitlements and justifications fueled it and gave you a false sense of confidence - you were so sure of yourself for a bit...and now it's all gone right?

at 13 months I am STILL scared - recovery is SCARY. but the minute you realize you have no control over recovery, your husband or life - and only have control over yourself - recovery will be alittle less scary.

If you are a Christian - refind your faith in God, put the Control in his hands and ask him to help change you - he will guide you. I recommend a book called the Self Condifent Woman by Janet Congo (christian book) that will do you WONDERS.

I know it doesn't make sense that you act loving and he changes - I know you probably feel you have done that for years - but I am guessing it hasn't been the way he has needed it to be. You haven't really understood who he is...and so he has never understood who you are. JL gave you some great insight into who your husband might be.

even though I am not describing you or your husband - your situation and the changes you need to make are no different than the rest of us.

As for what changes - I wonder if you have a bit of co-dependency - have you read up on it - that book I recommend might help you. You probably sacrificed alot in the last many years of your marriage and became even more and more unhappy. And instead of looking at ways you can do things differently it was more about what other people can do for you...and so things never got better...

You may not think I dont get your situation - but sadly I do...more than you know....tis why I am trying to help....


BTW - I am not American either

JL, I re-read your post (yikes - not the one where I know it all!) and appreciate your insight into how men think/communicate. AGGRHRHAA!! If men are uncomfortable discussing feelings and I'm threatening him by talking about it, how do we have a meaningful conversation about any of this? I'm a tremendous communicator - talking, discussing, etc. is my primary mode of communication, and I get a great deal of pleasure out of it (although truthfully not these particular conversations...). I can see how he may be misinterpreting some of what I'm saying as criticism, although that is truly not the way it was intended. This then becomes the crux of the current problem. How do we communicate? There's all these plans, ENs, Love Busters, etc. that we're supposed to be discussing and working on.... how can that possibly happen? Dorry, I also reread your post, and I don't know if I can be as good a person as you. I honestly don't know if I can face the rest of my life being self-sacrificing, trying hard to keep H happy and meet his needs, and get little in return. I feel resentment building up just thinking about it. I sound selfish... maybe I am. What I want (I know... it's not all about what I want...) is an equal partnership where both of us are willing to meet each other's needs. I can try to learn different ways to communicate with him, but I feel like someone has suddenly said, "Just so you know... your H doesn't really speak English; at least not very well. He really speaks Mystery Language. Your best bet is to learn how to speak it. Unfortunately, there are no interpreters, no English/Mystery dictionaries, and no Mystery courses for you to take. You have to figure it out on your own." Dorry, how exactly is it that you communicate with your H so that it works for you?

Hi Dorry,
Tell me more about how I find out what to change. I'm deeply unhappy with myself now and it seems to have a lot to do with guilt - how I could have betrayed both my H and a friend as I did, put my children in jeopardy, been so selfish, etc. I question what it is in my makeup that let that happen. But before the A I think I was happy and comfortable in my own skin (I say "think" because I'm afraid to be absolute about anything anymore!). I had a great childhood, my parents had a loving relationship that ended with my mother's death, I've never been abused or deeply hurt in a romantic relationship, I'm very successful in my career, have many friends, am seldom the one with relationship problems at work or with friends/aquaintances, am satisfied with my appearance, am normally a self-confident person, etc. Since the A I've been feeling like my soul has cancer, but that is post-A. I know I've often pushed my H to be more outgoing, more cheerful, more energetic, more communicative, more demonstrative with my and the kids, more involved in our everday lives, etc. I know now that I frequently have nudged (sometimes shoved) him out of his comfort zone and tried to make him be more like me and more what I want (or at least think I want), and I know this makes him uncomfortable and resentful. When I leave him be, though, we essentially have no relationship because he just "exists" in the house (although he is great to help out with household chores, sometimes to extremes - definitely one of his major needs). Does this rambling, thinking-out-loud on the keyboard suggest that I should try to let him be himself and stop trying to get him to participate more? If I don't "nudge" him, I'm afraid we'll go back to living separate lives. How do I identify what I need to work on and change? Is it possible that he knows?

Hi Newstart, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience here initially. I don't know what it entailed, but I do know that we BS's get a little defensive, so I can imagine just about how it went.

I want you to know that I am a BS and I am proud of you for making the effort to save your marriage. It is a difficult but honorable thing to do.

I wish you all the luck in the world.

Good Luck and God Bless,

-Caren

you are so like me...


That is so my life pre-A. My husband is NOT social - never has been - he talks alot yes - on intellect -but he is a home body - prefers a night in alone - doing his own thing...my husband is a black or white thinker - and what I call a pessimist and he calls a realist...and I am the oppostite - very optimistic, social...

I did the SAME things you did - and you know what my husband admitted to me in our recovery after a bit - he often ignored me or treated me that way cause he was being childish and ONE upping me. That because I would nag or push him that I didn't care about what he was comfortable with - so why should he care about what I want.

That was a huge wake up for me realizing that possibly MY actions had caused the way he treats me...that if I hadnt treated him those ways - then perhaps I wouldn't have felt neglected and ignored...

My recovery was so hard - have you read my story?? From day 1 I started changes - the first 3 or 4 months they changed everyday - what I needed to change - figuring out what you need to change is personal and hard - I can't advice you where to start - just start...reading books help love busters is great - love languages - learn that your husband may be telling you he lvoes you in other ways - boy that took me forever to get...

Meanhile - H would throw the affair in my face all the time, pnish me and distance himself from me until 7 months post d-day he left me for another woman.

He came back a month later realizing I was who he wanted but he just wanted to be accepted for who he is - and that he might not change. After 7 or 8 months I was finally okay with that. He also tried to tell it to me in a way that involved talking about work...I was offended and hurt. My mom pointed out that this was his way of talking love to m as wierd as it is...and we both had to start learning eachother's love languages...

I had to learn to be a leader in all of this - and learn to no longer expect change...and you know what - 13 months later after my d-day and 7 months after his - I am seeing some very small but wonderful changes.

For the first time in FOREVER he commented on how heappreciated never having to worry about dishes or food - he always had a clean plate and food to pick from in the fridge!!

Also on a fight we had - normally I would defend myself and get the last word in...now I have learned to stay quiet and walk away...to not say things to make things worse...and normally he acts like everythings okay 5 minutes later...last week...he did that - but an hour later - he APOLOGIZED - this is a man who has rarely appologized - maybe 4 times our entire marriage.

Are these his changes - a little - but alot of them are changes that have come because of MY changes. My reactions...

Is it easy - NO, is it painful - AT times - but things are slowly getting better...

Give him a bit of time...no harassing, no relationship talk - and just try and love him and change...and then when he can trust those changes - bring up the EN's with him again...he may be more open then.

He may not know what you need to change - he is probably a mess of his own.

And I dont know what you need to change - you have to look deep in. Start figuring out what makes you happy - what made you fall- without blaming others. What in YOU let YOU fail. It's not an easy qeustion to answer and you may even have 20 different answers that keep changing - and it will HURT to do - but you will come out stronger...

I am still on the upward battle - and you do read my down posts here...but for the most part - life is getting better and better and as much guilt as I still carry at times, I am liking myself again...it's been a long time since then...

Newstart:

You are getting some great advice and I think that it is starting to sink in. Dorry is a great resource for you, listen carefully. You have to appreciate JL's insight even when you don't agree. Often I reread his posts several times before they really sink in...but they are rarely off the mark much.

I will try to add a few things that may help you along. First, start talking to your husband about radical honesty and why that it is important to not only communicate with each other but to communicate honestly. You don't have to force his out of his comfort zone and make him tell you how he feels, just let him know that you are there to work through anything that he wants to talk about. This will set the stage for what has to happen in the near future regarding your radical honesty.

Once you confess the depths of the affair..be ready for any number of reactions. Most importantly, be ready to listen. I deal with a number of people professionally who "feel" that they are great communicators. I just think they talk alot (not that I don't). But communication has to be a two way street, talking and listening. I am guessing that part of his reluctance to communicate issues with you may be his perspective of the communication environment between you. Do you often try to correct him or make him see things your way? I great quote I once read was "you have two ears and one mouth, use them proportionately".

I would also really study the Plan A guidelines and implement a good plan A. Show him how attractive a spouse you can be (not just physically) and avoid LB's at all costs. If your relationship is typically full of LB's from both sides, the natural defense mechanism for many would be to withdraw and detach.

There was a great line in a movie one time where the couple remembered at their wedding an aunt and uncle that had been married for a long time. They asked what the secret to a long happy marriage was and their response was nothing less than prophetic for most of us " They never fell out of love with each other at the same time". This means that some times each partner has to take the lead in R even when the other for whatever reason may be "out of love" (read detached emotionally or physically) for a while.

The last thing in response to your last line in your post was if you can't change him, what happens if you both just go back to the way things were. I have a couple of suggestions from MB principals. First, make time to spend at least 15 hours per week with each other giving undivided attention. No TV, kids, bills, etc....just you two. If you can get him to commit to that, he will have to start talking to you eventually or he will be very tired from listening to you talk for all 15 hours. My wife and I started walking together shortly after D-Day. The best thing that has ever happened for our relationship. That is our time together to admire each other, discuss whatever is on our mind, me to ask questions about the A if I need to, whatever comes up. Besides that we now look like we are going on thirty instead of forty and we just feel better.

The second thing that can help in this area is for you both to find something new that you can both enjoy that you haven't done before and then make that an activity that you both own. For us, it was horseback riding. I grew up a cowboy but for many years my city wife wanted nothing to do with the farm. Now we ride horses just to be with each other and enjoy nature. Not exactly herding cows, but a relaxing activity that we can both enjoy.

NT

I want to add one more thing - lets say you start these changes and things get better

If he finds out down the road you never told him everything - all your hard work may go to waste...you may loose him in the long run...as he wont trust the changes or hard work...

before you start any of this - you have got to get the courage to tell him everything...

I know you can do it

Major, major T/j. Dorry, I wasn't being rude on I-ville - I was being funny.

Well, I thought I was.

Hi guys BTW. Another FWW here. A real FFFFFFFFWW.

I'll read this thread when I get a moment.

LOL Jen - were you being rude??? lol

I thought your comment about not leaving WAS funny...I just hadn't written back at all lol

And newstart - listen to kiwi and if Kyellow comes over her too - they were my guides early on - I just read their posts and struggles and started to look at myself like they did - they are really FFFFWWWW's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> before my time teehee

Hi NT and Dorry,
Dorry, I just finished reading your story. I'm floored that you are still together and that you're making things work. You are truly an incredible person! I'm sure I'd be committed by now if I had to face what you've been through... I'm barely hanging on through my own stupid mess! NT, you have a point about me trying to make him see things my way. I know this is a fault of mine. He has this bent as well, so sometimes conversations go nowhere (we are both very stubborn people). I'll work on accepting his point of view more readily, or accept him not accepting mine. I really want us to commit to the 15 hours a week time together, but that, unfortunately, is one of the areas of contention. He doesn't want to make the effort, and never has. To much money to get a sitter, too much trouble, too little time, etc. I've suggested feeding the kids earlier and having a quiet dinner later, but there's never a "good" night. The excuses go on and on... suggestions on how to make this happen would be great. Dorry, I agree that our relationships are similar. You said you are accepting that your husband is a homebody and not trying to change him anymore or push him out of his comfort zone. How does this translate into action? Do you both spend a lot more time at home now just the two of you? How do you compromise with your outgoing personality and social nature? Do you go out with friends without him, and if you don't and you both stay home, do you feel resentment? This issue became bigger and bigger because I was pushing him harder and harder, and when he wouldn't do as I wanted I started doing things without him (clearly a bad move marriage-wise, but fed my own need for socializing). I'm starting to see that another thing I need to change (besides being a more open listener) is I have to accept him as he is... but that frightens me.... who he is often is a lump on the couch that doesn't want to do anything. Oh dear... I was starting to see some thought clarity, but now I'm getting all muddled again...

Hey Dorry, that's so cool. I never knew you read our posts.

Hi, Newstart, seriously when I'm not cooking dinner (like I am now) I will give your posts some serious thought.

Actually, Dorry, I meant when I said "Dorry, who???" or something like that.

All I can say is, listen to JL. OMG, that man guided me through EVERYTHING. He's a wonderful, wonderful (if rather old <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) person. Not a BS or a WS you know. Just very, very wise and very, very empathatic. (is that a word?)