I throw BBQ's at home and invite people I know he is comfortable around here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Make sure he doesn't have to help one bit. I also try to get out for coffee with friends more during times that he is busy...so that in our time - its our time.

Our time isn't dates like I would like it - but I am getting better at working with it - like when we have to go to parent teacher interviews - I say - ohhh lets grab sushi first - meet me there- then he can't so no - that took courage cause I was convinced he would say no - but since i planned it - he said yes!!!

Our time together is usually watching movies at home...I started to listen more to him too - he didn't talk much with me cause I always did the complaining and talking - now i let him do it - about his day, about work...and once he is all done, I give a quick run down on mine instead of the 3 hour ****** fest I used to - and you know what - I GET SYMPATHY!!!! it's amazing!!!

I find too - now that I am not pushing - he is actually more open to invitations that friends offer to us - not lots...but every month or two - he doesn't mind if we go out to a friends house...

The biggest thing i had to understand was that his job is mentally draining - I figured - hey it's still work and we still have chores and a life - other people balance it - but I realized he isn't other people- he is him - and he needs that down time at home. He needs to be able to come home - climb on the couch and feel safe to never have to worry about the day anymore...I used to be resentful of it - now I udnerstand it as part of him.

I have learned that we don't agree on much - but that doesn't make me right and him wrong...it makes him him - and i have to respect that his views, opinions and ways are right to HIM. Doesn't mean I give up mine - but it changes how I listen, how I approach him, my patience with him...and he reacts differently to me because of those changes I have made.

You will feel muddled for a long time - I wish I could say otherwise - but this is NOT an easy road - but its a road that is going to give you SOOOOOO much more. Think of the role model you will be for your kids!

Your husband like mine - doesn't want the effort and makes excuses - I am have been terrified to make decisiosn cause I felt he would complain - so I as I said above - I have found work arounds - like on a PT interview when we are going to be out anyhow - having him meet me afterwork for supper - pre arranging a sitter - usually on a shared sitting arrangement so it's cheaper ( i watch hers, she watches mine) and then he doesn't feel pressure to be out - we are out anyhow and eating.

Things aren't fantastic yet - but the small changes are such blessings and motivation to keep going!

This is 13 months later too....it's a long road - but worth it.

Dorry who??? that made me laugh too - cause I was really gone in IV that long...

Dorry, thanks so much for helping. My brain is full so I'm going to bed (it's 1:00 am here). Keep the advice coming - you really are helping.

Sleep in it - come in with a fresh mind - and maybe we can get a plan in place for step 1.

Telling your husband the whole truth...

then you can REALLY start recovery - both personal and maritial...

Newstart,

First, you start by realizing that some of what you feel about your H, is in fact rewriting history. You say he has always been this way. OK, you married him why? You say that some of your marriage has brought you happiness, but that is actually a new statement from you.

You don't realize it and I think Dorry and others have hinted at it, but you are only 5months? out in recovery. I don't have time tonight but I will find for you SKM's chronicles as she describes her recover as a WS. I have had the pleasure of meeting her and her husband and they are truely very good people but she struggled. Some of what you seek will ONLY come with time and patiences. Some will only come when you change YOUR perspective on things. You said a few things I thought I would comment on. You said
I used my assumptions to illustrate a few things for you. I fear you missed a few but I think you are starting to get the jest of this. To answer your first question, you have a meaningful conversations as he learns how to communicate with you and you with him. Do you ever watch men?

You ought to do it sometime. Watch old male friends or guys that play a sport together. If you take their words literally, you would think they hate each others guts. They say things to one another, that if a woman said to another woman, they would be enemies for life. Heck, these guys can get a huge physical fight and become friends. They insult one another, question each other parentage, their ability in bed, you name it. The slap each other, they even slap each other on the butt, and they rarely if EVER compliment one another, but they would die for the other guy. They will defend them against anyone else, and yet they can sit and drink a few beers and not utter 20 words in an hour.

Are you getting the idea that men have a different language? You should. I have a story I love to tell. When my children were younger I coached all of them in sports but particularly basketball. We would have to travel to the practice facility and I would have 6 boys in my van. Apart from body noise (real or manufactured <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) nothing was really said. We get on the court and they would bang each other, and become quite physical. Many of them are friends today and they are adults.

I did the same for my daughter. I would have 6 girls in the car and there would be 9 conversations going on at once. I would come home with a headache and my W would just laugh at me. Those girls just wore me out, with their insessant (sp) talking. I came to realize that as far as information content about the same amount was being passed among the boys as the girls. The girls just liked to talk and it really did not matter too much who was listening or responding.

Your task is not impossible, but your task does require you to step outside of yourself. First, as Dorry said you are responsible for your happiness, not your H. Second, you stated that he has ALWAYS been this way, that is good news he is consistent. Now your job is to find his language and it MAY not be verbal has it crossed your mind that it may in fact be MORE than verbal? Please think about this.

Right! I thought as much. But, as you say you don't like thee conversations right? Why? Well alot of information is being thrown at you, some of it does not make sense to you, some of it seem contradictory, some of requires some reflection on painful things, and some of it you just plain don't agree with no matter IF we are right or not.

Have I got this about right?

Well, I have just described your H to you. He is exactly where you are, it is painful, it doesn't make sense, he doesn't agree with it, and he is not very good at it.

I think if you reflect on how you have felt here, you might get some idea of how your H feels about some of these things.

My children once had a 1st grade teacher. She was well into her 50's and she decided to learn Russian. I asked her why, and she answered she had always had an interest in it, AND it made her a better teacher. She found it a challenge to learn a language, where she did NOT know the words, did not know the syntacs, and none of the letters made any sense...just like her 1st graders trying to learn English.

When I say you need to change your perspective, this is what I am talking about. Whether your H talks alot or does not, is no indicator of whether or not he is a good man, and a man that loves you deeply. Dorry mentioned that at 18 months she is still learning, well at 60 I am Just Learning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You will learn the rest of your life if you are smart, and your perspective on marrige will change over time as you continue to post here and discuss things. As it does, you will gain insights into yourself, AND your H.

Time and patience NewStart.




Newstart I don't doubt for one minute the sincerity of what you have said. But, I hope you have no doubts that he feels under attack by you. Your main weapon...you are much better at expressing yourself than he is.




Overwhelming isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Well how do you suppose he feels. How you do this is simple (BUT IT IS NOT EASY) you do it one step at a time. You gradually reach out to him, find common ground and gradually ever so gradually you can begin to pull him out. You cannot change him, but you can make him feel safe with you. He does not seem to feel very safe with many people. I don't know the cause, but right now he is defensive as are you hence the responses we get from you as well as the responses you are getting from him.

You wanted and may still want to leave. You are not sure this is the place for you, because people are telling you to do something YOU do NOT want to do. You fear losing your marriage if you are honest with your H, and yet you talk about him as if he is NOT worth the effort. I would suggest to you that he is going through the same thing ONLY silently. Do you two have common ground? I think you do, what do you think? I think you have far more in common than you realize and I think as you read this thread you will see that you CAN come to see how he feels if you will look inside and then step outside and look at things from his point of view WITH the knowledge that he does and will not handle things as you do.



NewStart here is quote that you should repeat to yourself over and over Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. Self-sacrifice is the quickest way to destroy a marriage and it is done via resentment. Harley has a huge section on this very thing and it is the discussion of the POJA. The reason that the policy of joint agreement is there is to avoid resentment. Neither party should do anything that both are not ENTHUSIASTIC about. Harley even mentions that divorce's should be POJA'd.

So of all of the things we want you to do, self-sacrafice is NOT one of them. It will kill you marriage and this is a marriage builders site. Do you have some hard sledding to do, yup, but it should be because YOU want to achieve something. If you don't then divorce your H.
I think Dorry answered this for you. But, don't worry your marriage is an equal partnership, you don't speak his language any better than he speaks yours. By the way "equality" is a mathematical concept, not a viable social one. In your marriage you should give ALL you have and so should your H, but it will not be equal in any one area. Want a further illustration? Consider children, having a second child is not twice the work, it is often 3 times, or 4 times or 1.5 times the work of having just one. 1+1 = 2 is purely mathematical and so is equality.

You can do this Newstart, but you have some perspective changes to make first.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Here is SKM's thread Skm's Chronicles

JL - fantastic post again. You really offer some GREAT insight for me...as I am STILL learning more about my husband <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A new day and a new perspective... I've been thinking a lot about all the info I read last night, and think, maybe, possibly, I may have a plan of sorts. What I'm sort of getting (am I sounding a little unsure???) is that I need to back off in trying to talk about the A and issues in our marriage and let him be for a while. I need to be a better listener, and try not to say things that he may interpret as criticism or discontent. I need to listen more openly and not try to coerce him into agreeing with my point of view. Finally, I need to let him be himself and stop pushing him to be who I want him to be, and I have to learn to love and accept him as he is (even if who he is is a lump on the couch....).

JL said, "But, as you say you don't like these conversations right? Why? Well a lot of information is being thrown at you, some of it does not make sense to you, some of it seem contradictory, some of requires some reflection on painful things, and some of it you just plain don't agree with no matter IF we are right or not.

Have I got this about right?

Well, I have just described your H to you. He is exactly where you are, it is painful, it doesn't make sense, he doesn't agree with it, and he is not very good at it." Point well taken (I have to admit that I laughed out loud when I read this. Too true!!) and I will think carefully in the future before I start blabbing about needs, fixing things, etc.

JL also said, "You fear losing your marriage if you are honest with your H, and yet you talk about him as if he is NOT worth the effort." That surprised me. I wasn't aware that I was talking about him that way. I've been thinking about this today quite a bit, and I guess my feelings towards him are very up and down, although I thought they were mostly loving and positive. I want to be with him and want this to work out, both for us and our children. I do love him, and in many ways he does make me happy. At the same time, as soon as I start thinking about the huge differences in our outlook on life and the way we enjoy it day to day I feel frustrated, angry, and upset. I don't want to feel this way, but I can't seem to help it. I want him to enjoy life and to really live it, every moment of it! I know that for him enjoyment comes from a comfortable, clean, quiet home; his nice comfy couch and the t.v., occasionally having another couple over, etc. For me, that is not living at all! I want to be outside doing things and living each day as if it were the last. As I write this, I begin to wonder if I DO have issues after all. My mom died of cancer when I was 20, before I was married or had kids, before I graduated from university, started my career, etc. It was a really hard time (although I have to say this isn't much easier), and I came away with the feeling that there isn't a moment to waste. H gave me a necklace for my b-day with a little metal circle on it that reads "live your life." He said he thought of me the moment he saw it. I wear it almost every day. I guess he knows me pretty well. My next big crisis to overcome then, I suppose, is how to not only accept each other but to find some middle ground. This will be really hard - we're starting to talk about some basic, fundamental aspects of my being now. I don't know if I can do it.

Newstart10,

I don't have any advice or insight to share. But I do want to give some encouragement. And a little admiration. And .. some envy for your H.

You are Doing something. Actively reclaiming your marriage. It isn't all fun, or easy, but you are doing it anyway. Doing the hard stuff. Not just ignoring it and expecting him to "get over it"

Keep it up.

I also have a little envy for you H. I know your H might find it hard to believe anyone could have it worse than him. The whole thing is so devastating to the M and family.

But there are many BS on here who have WS who are all talk and no action. Who pretend to choose the M, but who are really not changing anything. Who aren't will to learn, or actually DO something

.

So I'm a little envious. Because I have a wife who is completely remorseless and coldhearted.

Hi Tom,
Thanks for the encouragement. It really helps! I hope things start to turn around for you and your W. I don't know how long the two of you have been working on this, but have heart... I know that I probably acted the same way as your W the first month or two. I certainly felt that way, anyhow! Although there seem to be many good days and bad days, the good days are getting better and lasting longer, and the bad days aren't quite so unbearable and I get over them sooner. Good luck!

Newstart, I must admit I still haven't read all your posts. But I get the general idea. I posted this to Magpie in early Jan (Magpie is Brokenbird's FWW).

It might give you an idea of my story. It's very brief and the board itself is full of my story but it's all over the place. As I said before, listen to JL. He's wonderful. (The remark about him being old is a bit of a joke between me and him and the rest of the board <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - well, darn it you are an old codger JL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Anyway, here it is. I added another bit to say that the man I was so keen on leaving my H for. Never give him a thought.

"Magpie, I only just caught this

Quote:
You came here ready and willing to save your marriage.



Oh, if you only knew.

My A ended in June 2003 because the OM wouldn't leave his wife. My A was a true exit A. I would have been gone in a flash.

My H found out in October 2003 by finding relationship books I had hidden. He asked me and I confessed. I thought that would be it. I thought and hoped I would be out the door the next day.

The next day was probably one of the worst of both of our lives. We made an appointment with an MC (out of the phone book) and went that afternoon. For perhaps two or three months we went twice a week which was wonderful for both of us. I was told to grow up basically. But...from June I had been grieving in private for the OM, once it was in the open I was a complete pain in the a** to my H.

I said, we can stay married. Does it matter if I don't love you? Slowly I began to feel some closeness again with my H. He was wonderful in the way he dealt with me and the situation.

In February 2004, I found MB. I came on here crowing that we were recovered and telling everyone how we'd done it.

It didn't take long for people to point out that we were a long, long, long way from even being close.

JL talked me through it, BSs gave me great whacking 2x4s, a great many FWWs gave me hope and support.

By 1 year past D-day (October 2004) we were making real progress.

Now we're 2 and a half years past d-day. I wouldn't say we were perfect - we both have bad moments - but damn it we're going to be together and happy the rest of our lives.

BTW I'm 51 and was 48 when I had the A with my old H/S boyfriend. My H and I have been married 31 years."

Hope it helps in some way.

Thanks for your encouragment too. However, it's been almost 2 years now for my STBX. You've done more in two months. That says something. I hope it says something to your H as well.

But that doesn't mean any slacking off for you ... or him. You're a family aren't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Jen. Any and all info on how your rebuilt your feeling for your husband and your relationship would be appreciated!

Newstart,

As usual you said something I felt the need to respond to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You said Newstart has it crossed your mind that your zest for life is exactly WHY your H loves you? Has it ever crossed your mind that he chose you because you ARE different from him? Has it crossed your mind that you chose him for the same reason...to add ballast to your life, stability, quietness?
Ask him if he enjoys your spirit, your zest, your passion.


Makes sense to me. But, just so your know there is not a quiet moment to waste either. Your H comes from a different set of circumstances that permits him to see things differently. I have no idea of the trauma of losing your mother at a very important juncture to your life has created something WRONG with you. I would guess it has brought deep sadness, and fear. I do know that my daughter had a roommate in college whose mother died after a years battle with cancer and she was 20 as well. It was a deeply sad time and still is for her as this young lady is only 22 now. My daughter has spent a lot of hours talking with her about it, and then talking to my W and I to see if there is something she could do. There is little to be done sadly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



So it would seem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And it would seem he likes you as YOU are.


Middle ground??? I am thinking that would be a mistake. I am betting your H does not want you to be like him. I am betting that your H loves your energy and passion. I am betting that what needs to be done is a discussion where by you express your need not for him to change from his comfort zone or you yours, but for him to occasionally join you in something a bit more adventurous, and perhaps show your children that it is OK to be adventurous as well as stable, calm, comfortable in your own company as your H seems to be.

So middle ground, is not what I see. I see you realizing your H is not an anchor around you, but rather the person you need to provide stability. I think he sees you as the person that provides energy and joy to his life.

What do you think?

There is a saying here that just might more true in your case than perhaps you realize. The saying goes Still waters run deep. I think your H is deeper than you may realize.

Definitely talk to him but do it from the point of view that you two are partners. You two have things to teach your children and each other. Enjoy the differences Newstart, they are what make life interesting.

God Bless,

JL

JL, In the beginning (I've only been here a few days, but seems like forever!) you drove me crazy with difficult questions, statements I perceived as adversarial, and ideas I didn't want to consider. Please don't stop helping/bugging me! You are really making me think, and that is turning out to be a good thing. Until tonight all the thinking has been fairly painful. Your post just now gives me renewed hope and a brighter state of mind. I'm off to bed soon (2 late nights in a row... we must be in a different time zone!), but hopefully I'll feel a little less burdened tonight. I had no idea what a journey this would be. I'm probably just on a bit of a high at the moment, but I'm starting to feel like we may come out of this strongly!

Newstart, as usual JL hits the nail on the head.

I was thinking back to when I met my H. He was a pot smoking hippy who was at teacher's college and had just come back from 2 years doing the overland hippy trail. Afghanistan, Turkey, India, Europe. He was different from anyone I'd ever met before (I'd gone out with pinstripe suits before I met him). He introduced me to new ideas, to books I'd never read, he was the most exciting thing and different thing that had ever happened to me. I was 18 and VERY sheltered.

He gave up the pot very soon after meeting me because he knew I didn't approve but his humour and his off base way of looking at things was SO attractive and didn't change.

At the time of my A he was in a deep depression because both his parents had died within 6 months of each other. He started to walk like an old man, he would sit outside and read for hours on end. Instead of reaching out to him which I didn't know how to do, I had an A. The timing of my old HS b/f turning up was just plain weird. It couldn't have been worse.

After d-day my H and I REALLY looked at ourselves and what we'd become. It was such a turning point.

I have to be honest. It took a long time for me to get over the OM and start having feelings again for my H. I think the amount of effort my H put into becoming "himself" again was huge. He had always been there, he'd just forgotten. JL once said to me "wouldn't you like to be a sexy middle aged couple" and it just sounded so good. Of course we would.

Just today for instance, a very minor thing but huge for me. A beautiful hot NZ day, the tide in at our local beach at lunchtime. I said "let's go for a swim" and he was in his trunks in 5 minutes ready to go with me. 3 years ago he'd have said "you know I hate getting all sandy, you know I hate lying in the sun."

It's carried through into all aspects of our lives. He's the man I remember. Sexy, funny and "different".

How could you not love a man like that? Who'll move heaven and earth for you or just go for a swim with you. LOL

Hi Newstart10,

So pleased to see your thread progressing and you opening up over here. You sound to be doing better recently. This is a real rollercoaster ride as everyone will atest, so enjoy those ups, but don't take em for granted. Stamina. This recovery process requires stamina.

Newstart said:


I think KiwiJ summed this one up a bit:


It may seem counterintuitive, but I have found, as Kiwi said, that looking at MYSELF and working on MYSELF was the first turning point toward a better M and my feelings for my H.

Doing this does take perspective--it does require really getting outside of your own "needs" and looking at the situation objectively.

It also requires "owning" the situation and facing the REALLY tough stuff. Like recognizing that the A was not because of your H, or your own unhappiness, but because of something else...and that your unhappy M is also because of you.

I hope you don't feel defensive when you read this. I am not judging you or attacking you. How could I, I have been there!

Glad to see you are sticking around. Take care.

Hi Newstart,

You are doing soooo well! I laughed out loud when I read your last post to JL!! I think he does that on purpose: pisses us off when we first come here, then gradually eases up on us as we begin to come around. Like playing good-cop, bad-cop -- only he plays BOTH roles himself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I just wanted you to know I've decided to butt-out of your thread -- at least for now. Not because I'm abandoning you, but because I think you're in much better hands with Dorry and JL among others. My sitch is quite a bit different from yours. My OM was someone I barely knew, and my H has been putting everything he has into saving our marriage.. so it might make you feel more discouraged than anything to read my threads. You and Dorry really seem to have a lot more in common.

Speaking of Dorry (Hi D!)... something she wrote awhile back seemed to get a little lost in the shuffle here, and I think you'd be wise to give it a lot more thought.



Do you really want to risk that? And even if he never finds out, it will always be there between you because you will always know. Believe me, I didn't want to tell either. But now I'm sooo glad I did.

Please think about it.

--SC

SC,

Please hang around on this thread. You have much more to offer than you realize and NO I don't play "good cop bad cop". I was in a play as a kid and had two lines and got them backwards. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I am lousy at playing roles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But, what you felt and what Newstart felt when you first came here is the shell cracking, and it is painful. If you went back and read my first posts to you, I doubt they would bother you one bit. I think the same may be true for Newstart as well.

What is happening to both of you and SC you are further along and Jen is much further, is your perspectives change as you read here, discuss things here and learn her. Mine sure did.

SC, Newstart has some very hard decisions to make and she will need insight from those that have been there, you, Dorry, KiwiJ, have much more to offer her than I do. Please stay and help.

God Bless,

JL

Newstart,

That thinking thing is a pain isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And LEARNING now that is painful as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am glad you are feeling hopeful, because if we did not have hope for you, your marriage, and your H we wouldn't bother to post. Your situation never was hopeless, but you had to crack out of the shell you were in to see it. You had to start to realize that we are not out to punish you or hurt you, or your H. It serves no purpose.

Don't worry I and others will continue to bug you. And I am very very glad you are seeing hope and realizing what a journey it really will be.

If you want to take an interesting journey I would like to suggest you read the thread posted here many years ago by a lady named Facing_Choices. You can find most of her posts in the achives section when this site was really only one section not divided as it is now. Many of her posts were lost in a disk crash in I believe 2000 or so. She has one final post either in Emotional Needs or Recovery.

You will find her story very very amazing. She came here deep in an affair and having had a child by OM which her H did NOT know. Some of those posts are lost. She did tell her H about 10 months after the birth.

I mention this particular story because I had been reading here about 6 months, Literally 7 years ago but had never registered. Her posts and story caused me to register here and she was the very person I ever posted to on this site.

My point in suggesting this is simply to see what changing perspectives can do. Newstart, there are so many on this site like FC's, so many, and that is why everyone that posted to you has hope for you marriage not only to survive but to reach levels it never has before.

Read what KiwiJ, Jen, just wrote you. Read it carefully and you can just feel the happiness and satisfaction. She is where you want to be.

God Bless,

JL

Jen, thanks so much for the positive post. I'm working on myself, although I'm still finding it tough to see all my issues and to understand what needs to be changed. I wish I came with a manual! It's wonderful to hear that your husband came around and that the two of you are so happy now. I hope the same happens for us. By the way... how did you get him to see what HE had to change? I'm trying not to focus on that at the moment and just work on myself (thanks AH, and no, I'm not at all offended by your post. It is helpful), but I'm definitely one of those people who's brains go 10 miles a minute, and it's hard for me not to always be one step ahead! I fear one of my faults is that I'm struggling with accepting who H is/has become (although JL is really helping in that department).

The getting over the OM thing is tough, but it's way better. I wish they would move away... NC is happening, but I still see them from time to time, and it will only get worse when the weather warms up (barf). Anyone who can help in this department? I need some sort of invisibility cloak, or possibly a tremendously huge sheet of one-way glass to put up along the side of my yard. Just today I was leaving to go skiing with the kids and OMW waved from her car going the other way (could be worse... she could have run me off the road...). Then I get stuck in that sick-feeling, thinking-about-things-I-don't-want-to-think-about mode. Well, enough of that negative talk. I've decided that I get overwhelmed and the anxiety starts to paralyse me again when I try to tackle too many issues and problems at one time, and at the moment I'm working on self improvement!

SC, I welcome your advice. My husband is trying, but has ups and downs (as I do). Last week was a bad one and then he worked nights all weekend, but tonight he seemed friendlier and more open. JL, thanks again. You're right about the painful parts! I also don't like the "difficult decisions" you're alluding to... my anxiety is coming back!