This is my first post but I’ve been lurking here for a few months, so I’ll try to get all the abbreviations right. I am a FWW, trying desperately to work on my marriage, but I really need some help and support. A little background info first…..been married for 8 yrs, together for 11. We have twins that are about to turn 5. H and I have been best friends for all 11 yrs but have had numerous ups and downs in our marriage, especially after the birth of our children. Once they were born, our relationship really changed. We started to fight constantly and the only time we weren’t fighting, we were vegging out in front of the tv because we were so tired from taking care of the babies. When the kids were one, H went back for a professional certification that took him three years to complete. During that time, he suffered from depression/anxiety and completely disengaged from our family. We had a pretty immature relationship at the time and instead of talking to him about it, I allowed anger and resentment to build up over those years. At the time, I was also suffering from postpartum depression which never went away, but wasn’t diagnosed until last winter. Long story short….I ended completely disengaging from H, met a new group of friends and had an affair with a mm that had become a confidant of mine. A was short (4 wks) but it was intense and very addicting for me (not all that uncommon from what I’m reading). Like many WW, the OM made me feel attractive and wanted, something I hadn’t felt in a very long time. At the time, I was willing to risk everything to be with him and to follow up on the plans we had talked about, i.e. leaving our spouses, eventually getting married, etc, etc. A ended by OM in 10/04 because he wanted to “work on his marriage”. However, over the next six months, despite knowing how I felt about him, he continued to keep me ‘hooked’. I am not blaming him whatsoever for me not being able to establish NC with him, but he certainly didn’t help when I tried, pulling me back in each time I distanced myself. I was angry, sad and felt out of control every single day and was finally diagnosed with clinical depression last winter. Tried some SSRI’s but had an adverse reaction to each one so I decided to ‘beat it’ on my own. Oh did that work well…..pardon my sarcasm. Finally couldn’t take the downward spiral that had become my life and had d-day in 5/04. By the way, H had taken control of his depression/anxiety and started to make some very positive changes about the same time I started the affair. I, of course, barely noticed and even the changes I saw, I didn’t believe in. While I was going through the depression and continuing an EA (that does mean emotional affair, right?), H was very supportive and allowed me the freedom to ‘see the light’ on my own, as suggested by our therapist (she’s a marriage and individual therapist for both of us). When I was finally able to be honest with him, he showed me what a changed man he was by supporting me through my fog and withdrawal. Unfortunately it took me so long to work through it (3 months); by the time I was able to figure out how much love I have for him and that I valued our family, his feelings for me had changed too much. The last 5 months have been spent trying to prove to him how much he means to me, how remorseful I am, how sensitive I am to his needs and wants, how much more mature our relationship could be, and that we could have the relationship he and I have always dreamed about. Our communication is now on a level it’s never been before, truly intimate. However, he still is not sure he even wants to work on our m and he has a huge amount of anger and resentment towards me. At this point, he is unwilling to work through the anger at all, and although he’s not positive as to why, some of it is just because I want him to do it and it’s his way of saying ‘f-you’. (his words, not mine) I’ve never read Dr. Harley’s book but have read almost everything on the website and asked H to just take a look at the site. That was over a month ago and still nothing. Three weeks ago, I printed out the “Overcoming Resentment” page and told him it would mean a lot to me if he read it. He never picked it up until yesterday and last night we ended up fighting because his interpretation of Dr. Harley’s comments was different than mine. He made specific reference to this part of the article: “If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us. Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.” He became angry with me because he felt Dr. Harley and I were trying to tell him that if he simply ignores the past and what I did, the resentment will eventually fade away. My interpretation is that if he wasn’t so busy allowing my affair to effect every aspect of his life, if he didn’t constantly dwell on what I did, he may be able to find a way to begin to work through the anger. Okay, I didn’t exactly say it in those words; I was a bit more sensitive to him last night. But both our mc and my therapist have told him the same thing, that he’s beginning to allow the anger to control him. His behavior is starting to remind me of how detached and distant he was a few years ago and frankly, it’s beginning to scare me. He’s worked so hard and I feel as if I’ve taken all that work away from him. He has talked about a d, saw a lawyer last spring but never filed, but the fear of not seeing his children, coupled with the fact he’s not sure he’s completely ready to give up on us, keeps him here. We still try to be open and honest with each other but that’s very hard for him to do. I have days, especially days we see our mc, where I truly believe we’re eventually going to get through this. But often that day is followed by many days of feeling as though I’m fighting a lost cause. I now feel that everything I say is met with resistance and anger, that he’s so convinced our m won’t work that we can’t even begin to move forward. He very often interprets things I say or do as me trying to push him or make him feel badly but as the mc tried to point out to him the other night, all I want is complete honesty at this point, no matter how painful it is for me. However, his mantra is now “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.” I have learned a lot from the mistakes I’ve made and have worked hard to correct the things within myself that lead me to stray in the first place. I’ve had a huge amount of guilt and anguish over what I did to my h and children and although he says he can see how hard I’ve been working and how many changes I’ve made, he feels I’m not dwelling on what I did enough. Huh?? I’ve tried talking to him about the fact that I feel we’re going to have to work through his anger whether we stay together or not, because we’ll always have some contact due to the kids. He’s told me he doesn’t know how he can respect himself if he stays with me and that he wouldn’t have as much trouble coping with it if we divorced. This, in my opinion, is a crock. One doesn’t suddenly get over their anger just because they ignore it.
Anyway, I see I have been rambling when I just wanted to give a brief run down. I guess I just needed to get it off my chest. Is it possible for someone with his amount of anger to move forward at some point? Is there anything I can do besides wait, while I continue to show him how sorry I am and how much I’ve grown? I think what I’m looking for is some support on those days I’m not so confident that this is going to work in my favor, because those days seem to be happening more and more frequently. I’m trying very hard not to pressure him at this point but have no idea how to move toward recovery. WOW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I just realized how long this is! Sorry about that.

LeftHoping,

Hello! Welcome to MB... or at least to posting on MB!

1. Paragraphs, PLEASE!!!

2. I'm a BH, like your H, and I *think* I know where he is. When you dropped the bomb on him (D-day), the only thing he could think of was saving his M. Over the months of getting you to decide to stay, his heart continued breaking... over and over and over.

If he's anything like me, what he wants, or *thinks* he wants is for you to TRULY comprehend HIS pain. He loves you more than words can say, deep down, but his anger at the way you've callously disregarded him through the A, and through all the months after that is making him insane with the desire to be free of the pain that he is convinced you just don't understand.

He doesn't GET your pain. He doesn't GET that he broke your heart. He doesn't GET that he didn't protect your heart. It's strict liability in that when he broke your heart there were more-or-less reasonable explainations for his actions, but your heart still broke. The same is true in reverse... You had post-partum depression... So what, you still broke his heart, and devestated his sense of who he was. DO NOT try to justify your actions. Do not minimize his pain by reminding him of WHY you were any less than fully culpable.

What he needs to do, eventually, is let go of the pain. I chose to forgive my W right away, and I meant it, but I couldn't escape the pain it had caused me. I believed I was entitled to the pain, and it was my RIGHT to have the depths of my pain understood by my W.

I was finally able to let go of the pain about a week and a half ago as I read a fairly short book, "Choosing Forgiveness" by John and Paula Sandford. I finally got that I had to let go of the pain. God had forgiven me, and I deserved to die.

It was like the parable about the servant who owed a king 10,000 talants, but couldn't pay and the king excused the debt. Then when the servant went out and saw a guy who owed him some insignificant amount of money (probably equivalent to $100 in today's dollars) he had the man thrown in jail. The king was incensed - how dare the servant who had been forgiven so much be so unforgiving?!

If your H wants to chit-chat on the forum, I would be more than happy to participate and share my experiences. If he's not willing to do that, don't be upset.

Let me suggest the following things:
1. Get "Choosing Forgiveness" - Read it
2. Get "His Needs, Her Needs" - Read it
3. Get "Love Busters" - Read it

DO NOT get the books for HIM to read. Let him read them if he chooses to do so. Get them for yourself.

ESPECIALLY the "Choosing Forgiveness" book. You may think that HE needs to forgive you - and he does - but YOU need to go through first. Whoever is the most eager to save the marriage needs to read that book first, and let the other spouse read it if he/she so chooses.

I guess I'll stop for now...

God Bless!

*ditto* paragraphs please ... I could not finish the entire post due to eye strain trying not to lose my place on the page.

Here's a tip*

~~ Allow your H the emotional room to feel however he feels without trying to convince him he ought to be feeling differently ~~

in other words ~~ respect that your H has feelings and he does not need nor want you telling him his feelings are incorrect

OK?

Now, your power lies in your ability to manage how you react to your husband's feelings ~~~ you can be silently supportive, verbally supportive and you can offer suggestions if asked :

"Husband, I see you are hurting. Is there anything I can do to help right now?"

*grumble grumble*

"OK then. Please let me know if there is something I can do for you."

works like a charm

here's something else ... men love to be touched ~ so touch him

Go read over your post and observe how many times you make mention of your H's feelings in a way that sounds like you disaprove of how he feels

feelings are just that ... feelings

once you notice your H is having feelings that you don't like, guess what happends next? ??? --- You do nothing.

Only POJA facts/decisions with your H, never his feelings. We women tend to do this and it is annoying as heII to our husbands. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I too am a BS and only found out for sure about my WW affair (ongoing likely??) and I have been devestated by this person that I was so sure would never hurt me or our children, this person I was going to grow old with, this person who I loved and cared for to the best of my ability (I now see how I can do better meeting unmet needs), etc. Unless you have been the BS, you cannot imagine the pain, suffering, destruction, etc that has been heaped upon your husband. Everyday since I found out I pray to God for more sleep each morning since that is the only time that I am not living in a perverbial ****** in my mind and heart.

That all said I am so thankful that there are WW like yourself who are trying to reconcile and recover and rebuild a better marriage than you had before the affair. Be patient with your BH. He has and still is in a place I would wish that no one would ever have to go. The fact that he is hanging in there tells you something about how much he loves you and cares about your marriage. That may have to be enough to a while.

I have a question for you as I sit here hoping the day will come when my WW wants to be in the place you are now and I will have the opportunity that your BH now has before him regardless of the amount of work and pain needed to get through to recovery and rebuilding. What can be done or what shouldn't be done to help the WW come to her senses and see what she's doing to all that she proclaimed at one time she loved (me, her BH, our two kids (one 11 months old). Any advice coming from a former WW that found her way back home would be appreciated.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> just so you know ---



every betrayed struggles with this dilemma

your H is not unique with this awful choice he has to make

YOU took away his favorite choice when you had an affair. Now his choice is:

A. Stay with a woman who cheated on me knowing another man has touched her body and her mind.

B. Divorce the woman who cheated on me and try to raise our kids from separate homes.

See, what is really going on here, he does not much care for either remaining choice he has.

The choice he thought he made *a faithful wife and mother to our children* has been removed. Bait and switch is how it feels to the betrayed spouse.

Understand? It's not only your H --- all BS go through this resentment that their favorite choice was stolen.

This is what recovery looks like. Down and nasty. Compromising choices. It takes a minimum 2 years for most of the resentment about the stolen choice to go away..

Welcome to MB. First let me say that I am so glad you are here and trying to save your M. Go out a purchase the Harley books, don't rely on just the website to get you through this. You read the books first then leave them for your H to choose to read. You see, you had the A so right now it is HIS choice to remained married or not. In the meantime you need to continue to work on identifying and changing those things in you that made you vulnerable to an A. I am both a FWW and BS. We have a FWW thread going if you wish to join us. The best for you right now is to keep posting on this thread so others can help you. The part of the above quote I put in bold is what we would call a DJ or disrespectful judgement. Not only that it is plain foolish thinking to say your H should just move on from what happened and focus on today. I can tell you that as a BS it takes a long time to reconcile how your spouse can hurt you so deeply. Allow him to talk about the A as much as he needs. Answer his questions truthfully. Become as transparent as glass.

lefthoping,

I am in your husband's position & know how it feels to have all this anger & resentment. Today, I hope we had a break through. Please read this & see if it helps (see Suzet*'s post on "What the WS/BS Must Do to Reconcile":

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2917435

I think the most important point I can make to you is that you have the biggest responsibility in the recovery process. You hold the key to your husband's recovery. IF you read through my post, you'll see I've been feeling like I want a D because my husband is spending his time frustrated & wanting me to move on while what I need is him for comfort me without lectures or judgments or advice.

I hope this helps.

Hi LH,

If I read correctly,DDay was back in 5/04 which is almost 2 years this Spring.That is a lot of time to let pass in resentment and anger.Some thiings have improved and other's have not,that's clear.However,even being a BS myself,at some point he is going to have to recommit to the marriage and try harder or he may risk the marriage.Yes I completely understand how he is feeling.But time is precious.Right now it's being wasted in dark emotion.He has to find a way to deal with that.We all have our own recovery periods but he has to make a decision: commit or not.He can't waffle in limbo forever.

There are those who just cannot get past an A.It's so truly devastating for some that they never quite recover.He may be one,I don't know.For me,I was willing to give my WH all the time and energy in the world to make our marriage better in his eyes and keep our family( both families) from hurting so much But he never stopped contact and I knew that was a deal breaker for me.I also knew I would never take him back after all he did.I would be betraying myself.Even if your H has some residual feelings like this,he still has to make a decision.What you did was very wrong but he cannot expect you to wait forever either.That's punishment you do not deserve since you are trying.

I might suggest,that you DO pressure him a bit: and by that I mean,express how much you love him and want this marriage but that he needs to get on board with YOU.You can't be groveling at his feet while he decides what he wants to do.ACTION is the key to changing behavior and thoughts.Even if he is feeling poorly he can turn that around to be positive but he has to ACT,just like you do.

Have you considered calling Steve Harley? Or maybe even better he could talk to your H and get him moving.Ignoring the past is most definitely not what Dr.Harely has said and no one here would suggest that either.It's something to learn from and hopefully improve your life.

Can you suggest he come here and talk to us? Maybe we can get him going on a positive path.

O

I could have written most of this post.

WH- CA/co-dependent

FWW (me)- co-dependent, undiagnosed depression (worse after kids)

I wish I had the answers. I don't. As you can see, we probably never spent much real time in R.

Focus on what made you vulnerable to an A and work on it. He needs to know it won't happen again. Be transparent. Be genuinely remorseful. Understand that he is devastated--wishes he did not love you anymore so he can move on, but he still does love you. R is a roller-coaster of emotions. Take good care of yourself and your kids. This will help the M, and if you do not stay M, then you will still be stronger for the next relationship.

Take care, you are not alone. You did a bad thing, but you are not a bad person.

LH,

I would STRONLY urge you to read about love busters and especially Disrespectful Judgements, DJ's, for short. You make many in your description of your interaction with your H, and each time you make them to your H you drain him a bit more of the love he has for you.

Your counselor doesn't sound as if he/she gets it. Your H will NOT get over his anger and pain.

Before I go on, please permit me to second, third, whatever that you use paragraphs. I cannot easily find what I need in your posts.

You did say near the end

LH, what he is trying to tell you in plain English is what Pep is telling you as well as others. You do not "get" what you have done to him. You are dwelling on the A, and YOUR actions and fixing them. THat is fine, but he will NEVER trust you until you understand what his world looks like now. He KNOWS that you are prone to another affair until you can change your perspective enough to see the world from his side of it. You are not there, and I will show you what I mean with a few more quotes from you.

You also said:


Neither you, your counselor, nor your H are going to "work through his anger." It is not going to happen. Why? Because you don't understand what anger is. It is a secondary emotion, driven by primary ones including: fear, pain, frustration, etc. IF you can identify which of these or how many of these are driving his anger, you can address them. Fear, now what would that man fear? THink about that? Pain, now what could be causing him pain, not just your A. No! As Pep said, he may well be in pain because he is left in his mind with two bascially unacceptable choices. Oh, and being faced with unacceptable choices also leads to frustration. Your job is find ways to give him more choices and particularly find one that is good for both of you. Read about the policy of JOINT Agreement, POJA.

In short you need to start to talk about the future, and how you two can address his primary feelings and emotions. Want a clue? He is giving alot of clues. Read the next quote.


He is telling you that his issues are internal to his view of himself. You are so focused on you, that you have not realized that he is dealing with his failure, his self-respect, his esteem, HIS issues.

And you want to know why things are not improving? You say:
He is saying, that his FEELINGS of anger are fueled by his lack of respect for himself, and that if he took CONTROL of the situation and do something proactive...LIKE DIVORCE he would feel more respect for himself and therefore feel better, hence less anger.

ANd you just told him his FEELINGS are a "crock". Guess he reads you a lot better than you read him, he KNOWS you don't understand him one bit or how this has messed with his mind, self-image, his sense of worth. Are you starting to see why he is ANGRY? I would be angry as well if someone told me, that they are sorry that they hurt me, but really my feelings don't count.

Are you starting to see what everyone here is telling you? You need to step back and realize this is NOT about you, it is about him and alot of the things about him are how he NOW sees himself...a failure.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL