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#1569543 01/20/06 11:12 PM
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Could I get some opinions about this, please?

I am stressing about the quality of my Plan A before I went into Plan B. I remember Mimi saying that a great Plan A was essential, and I've been worrying about the times I messed up. Not just that, but I read somewhere that a Plan B cannot be seen as a reaction to something that the WS did, and this is kinda what happened in my case.

Even though I didn't know about the Plans up until relatively recently, I instinctively moved into a Plan A thing a few weeks after WH moved out seven months ago: I stopped pleading, LBing, was loving, friendly, light, etc., and took his abhorrent behavior in my stride and didn't react. However, in November, I did a couple of things:

- I gave up on the marriage (temporarily, alas) and as a result I sent him a HUGE letter that was meant to help me bring closure. It wasn't LBing, but it was more of an "I'm sick of you blaming me for the failure of this marriage" letter. His excuse for leaving has been my "emotional abuse" (ie. temporarily withdrawing and/or lashing out when he's hurt me) and I basically said that this behavior was as a direct result of him not meeting MY ENs and the kids' ENs.

- A few times on the phone and in person, we discussed our M. He started up with the same old stuff about everything I've done wrong, and rather than letting it ride, I refuted everything he had to say. He also told me some things which he'd taken offence at in my behavior (nothing to do with him, btw, he's taken offence at all kinds of things I and other people close to me have done, for no reason anyone can fathom), and I defended myself.

- Finally, in December, I did the first thing which DID affect him personally: I forbid S10 to spend Christmas with him if the OW was there. (She was, and so he didn't, btw.) He lashed out like a MANIAC, threatening me, going off, and calling me (for the first time ever) a "f****** b****".

I know that WH found the letter incredibly hurtful. He told me so. And our talks about our relationship were really intense and not pleasant. Also, the last proper communication we had before the PBL (other than when I saw him on Christmas Day and I gave him a kiss on the cheek and wished him a Happy Christmas) was him being a maniac, threatening me, and calling me names.

This is what's killing me: does my lack of a perfect Plan A, and the fact that WH's actions were a catalyst for Plan B, mean that my Plan B will be less effective? (I'm talking "less effective" in terms of giving my marriage a chance, not less effective in terms of giving my personal life a chance.) What do you think?

If I hadn't given up in November I would have continued to be Little Ms Perfect, but the fact is that I gave up because my Little Ms Perfect (ie. my "Plan A") behavior was NOT working and WH was still behaving the same way and still with the OW after six months. Vicious circle, I guess. Sigh...


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Tam,
Don't stress you can't undo anything. No one is perfect.
Steve H told me most women's plan As only last about 6 weeks. Sounds like you did the best A you could. Stop 2nd guessing yourself and do a great plan B by the rules.
Hugs,
VTY

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I think you're probably just over analyzing it. If the things you listed were isolated behaviors in an otherwise good Plan A, I'm sure that you're fine. I'm sure that your WH will realize eventually that your reactions were a direct result of the things he was doing to you.

In both Plans you have to be the Lighthouse, guiding your WS home. I haven't seen your plan B letter, but if you put it up here before you gave it to him I'm sure it's fine.....it's his map back home to his family. He knows what he has to do, and when his little A falls apart (And it will) he'll know what he has to do to get back to his family....that is if you are still willing.

River, rest assured that I did way crazier things than you have even thought about doing, and my WH doesn't even bring them up.

I have thought about these things too....I've thought "Was my Plan A good enough", it SO was. I mean if you think about it, being nice and loving and caring while you're being crapped all over, who does that? Would he have done that for you? Probably not. You're plan A was good enough too.

Also, I have always been a very strong person, I never took any crap off of anyone, including my H, until this whole *A* thing started, it really took the wind out of my sails, and I have been thinking lately.....Good Lord, I'm not even the same person he married. Well that's what my Plan B is about, getting back to ME.......I'm going to find me, and like me again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So anyway, settle down River (Is your name Tammy?) your plan A was fine.

Good Luck and God Bless,

-Caren

P.S. BTW, how long have you been in Plan B???


Always Look For Grace Given, Even in the midst of Grace Denied.

BS-Me 39
WH-37
Together 15 years
Married 12 years
7 kids total, His: SD20, SS18, Twin SS's 16.
Mine: DD22, DD15
Ours: DD12
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Good Post Carmen
Well said
VTY

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Thank you VTY, it's Caren though, not Carmen....although I do get that alot...LOL

God Bless,

-Caren


Always Look For Grace Given, Even in the midst of Grace Denied.

BS-Me 39
WH-37
Together 15 years
Married 12 years
7 kids total, His: SD20, SS18, Twin SS's 16.
Mine: DD22, DD15
Ours: DD12
Affair began Fall 04, Separated Fall 04,2 Failed Plan B attempts, False recovery of sorts Spring 05.......Still pluggin' away.
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Six WEEKS?! Eek! OK, I did NOT know that! Thanks VTY that is most enlightening. And here I was thinking that maybe I should have stuck out Plan A longer!

Thank you so much VTY and Caren, I really appreciate it. As I keep saying, this whole thing is new to me (I sent the PBL on 30 Dec) and every now and then I have a crisis of conscience. And yeah... I WAY overanalyze, it comes with the territory of my very analytical (sometimes obsessive!) brain. Thanks for picking up on this and giving me a much-needed pep-talk. I have been worrying and worrying about this with all the shouldas couldas wouldas.

A word about being "crapped all over". At first I took EVERYTHING on the chin but eventually, as I became more and more detached, I learnt to remove myself from the sitch when it was about to happen or started up. I couldn't be disrespecting myself by submitting myself to HIS disrespect, know what I mean? But the last couple of months, when I "gave up", I kinda managed to reattach myself to WH somehow and that gave him an "in" into my heart, and WHAM! - he trod all over me again. I won't let him do that to me ever again. Heck - he knows his behavior is shocking (he "cycles" so violently between anger and guilt/sadness that he seems bipolar) and once or twice he's agreed that my behavior has been exemplary. (Except of course he qualifies it by saying that he can't "trust" that I've changed, although obviously I'm "trying". Funny how such words are coming out of the mouth of someone who is NOT trying to change and evolve into a better person, and is completely untrustworthy!)

BTW Caren I'm not a Tammy. I've got my MB handle from a character in the short-lived series "Firefly", River Tam. My sig is one of the things she says. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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River-

Hi - I am sure your Plan A was fine! I have been in the same boat as you, though - wondering about my Plan A as well. I have done that off & on from the day I went into my Plan B. But, we can't go back into Plan A and get a re-do.

Caren is right.

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I mean if you think about it, being nice and loving and caring while you're being crapped all over, who does that? Would he have done that for you? Probably not. You're plan A was good enough too.


We all have to stop questioning ourselves. Me included.

I did Plan A for 5 months. I too instinctively went into it after I found out about the A. I put up with his mind games, manipulation and the knowledge that he was carrying this huge torch for OW all that time. YUK. I cried a lot during Plan A. That's my biggest regret.

Plan B is great. Dont' think about your Plan A.

Take Care,

Kim


D-Day May 14th, 2005
Married 16 Years
DS age 8
6 months Plan A
Plan B 10-11-05, H moved back in June 2007, Very False Recovery.
2nd Day-Day 7/7/08 Kicked WH Out.
Plan B for my sanity
"Enjoy the little things, for one day you may look back and realize they were the big things." Robert Brault
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RT,

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I remember Mimi saying that a great Plan A was essential, and I've been worrying about the times I messed up.


As you can see,no one does a perfect Plan A from the responses you got.It's just not possible.We all try the best we can.Mimi is very proud to have saved her marriage and she was lucky but there are no statistics or documentation that I am aware of that says if you don't do a perfect plan A then all else fails.It is Plan B that yields the most response IMO.

I didn't do a perfect Plan A either.It was so hard given what my WH was doing.I did try my best but I had to go to Plan B about a month after because I was in serious mental trouble and losing the love I had for my WH.I also did do more plan a like material later on during the other major false recoveries and just in general(EN's) when I thought it would make a difference but ultimately it didn't.

Please don't put too much credence in it.Even those few that have done a "textbook" Plan A do not always get to recovery.It's blaming yourself when in reality it takes guts and a lot of love to even do anything like this for a cheating spouse.

Again: what I see is that most change occurs in a Plan B.Plan A is really designed to negotiate the end of the A and EN's can be met after the A is over.Dr.Harley says this.You can cut out all DJ's,LB's and be respectful and show them a happy home and a future but no where does he actually say you have to meet all needs during the ongoing A.It's not effective since the WS is getting most of what they *want from the OP.

The fact is,many marriages do not survive after something as traumatic as adultery.There is hope and Dr.Harley does have some great advice but it's very difficult.The important thing** is to do your best to make things right and do the work so one day,if the marriage does fail,you can honestly say you did your best to try and save it.

O


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Let's see, my initial Plan A lasted approximately about 6 months, but it was a separated Plan A (I don't know exact dates like everyone else..LOL). I went into plan B for about 2 days the first time, and maybe 3 the 2nd time....hence my addage that I suck at it.

After my 2nd Plan A I was in what I guess I'd call false recovery, as no actual recovery was taking place. The A had stopped for all intents and purposes, but they work close to each other, so I don't think contact every totally stopped. I was in this sort of false recovery limbo for about 8 months. I was still very loving, not judgemental, and during this time he did go off the deep end on me several times, but it had gotten much better, he was actually pretty nice to me, but everytime I called him at work he'd say "What's up?" (Which was a kick in the teeth everytime he said it because before the A we talked 5 or 6 times a day while he was a work for no reason at all). He also felt the need to remind me at least once a week that I should be saving up money (so that I could move out). It hurt my feelings, but I took it all in stride and started making my plans to move, and he was mad that I moved the way I did, without telling him.

He has maintained, since he said he wanted a divorce, that he still wanted to be in my life. One time when I was upset over the state of our relationship, and was crying I said "You said you wanted to grow old together..." he held me and said "We're not old yet..." and another time he said "My Mom divorced and remarried the same guy" and another time he said he wanted to get divorced and then date me. So to him none of this was ever a permanent situation. I think he wanted to choose where I would live, help me move, visit whenever he felt like it, call me whenever he felt like it, harrass me about if I had a boyfriend. (He did a little of this during false recovery too, he'd say 'you should go to church today, you might meet someone' to which I'd reply 'It's church, not a dating service').

I KNOW he doesn't want me to have a boyfriend, I'm not sure what that was even about, I think he was just seeing if I'd actually do it, and I'm sure he thinks that me moving the way I did had something to do with someone else, if for no other reason than he is still pretty foggy about things and that's the way they think when they're like that.

I have talked to the OW since they broke up, one time. I called her to apologize for some of the things I did....it was for me more than her. I blamed her for 100% of what happened, and even though I can't stand her to this day, I know she wasn't 100% to blame, obviously he has to share some of the blame. Throughout the entire conversation she kept saying "I don't know why you're calling me after all this time" (It'd been like 3 months) and I said "Look I don't want you to like me, I don't want to be your friend, but I felt I owed you an apology and there are some things I'm sure you don't know" i.e. he told her *I* left him, that I didn't want to be with him (Which doesn't make sense given my irratic behavior, but okay), and I let her know that at NO time during their little escapade had he EVER stopped having sex with me, and that I'd offered to get Triple A to tow a car (that to this day is still broken down in her garage)out and over to his house. She said "He's an @#$hole". She said "I don't understand if you are both unhappy why you'd stay together...." I said "Well, I've been with him for 12 years, and we have a family, and I love him" She said "Well, I understand that, I just got out of an 11 year relationship and I'll always love him....blah blah". And WH maintained even the last time we'd talked about it, that she hated him.....but who knows.

So even if they did give it another shot, I really don't believe it would make it past a few months, there are SO many lies he told her. He lied to me too, yes, but I made it an environment, where I knew everything, and he didn't have to lie to me.....I didn't ask him any questions regarding the OW when we were in separated Plan A, for the most part, so he never had to lie and tell me where he'd been.

After I did my very short lived Plan B (Which was working beautifully, BTW...and I caved) and we were talking about me moving back in with him, he was still talking to her on the new cell phone I'd bought him but seeing me every night, and I'd call and ask..."Are you coming over tonight" and he'd say "Caren, I still have to keep up *appearances*, my car is still in her garage" and I'd complain, so he'd come to my house again......then I'd started moving things into his house and he said "You know you shouldn't have moved that in here yet, I have to keep up appearances, and sometimes she comes to my house" then the last straw was I'd asked him if he was going to come over so we could go and shop for bunk beds for the kids, and he said the "Appearances" comment again, that he hadn't made one, and I went BALLISTIC, I said "You know what?! F-You, I don't want to move back in with you, I am taking the money I have getting a U-Haul and moving to Florida, then you can keep up all the appearances you like" He called my cell phone a million times, talked me into stopping by his work, we were fighting in the car, then I got out and stood in the parking lot pointing towards her shop screaming that he better march his butt in there and break up with her right then or I was gone" So he didn't march in there right then (but he did break it off when he got off of work), but up to that he was being pretty nice, and after that he started with the "This is going to be my way" stuff and it never improved.

So my plan A, was really good, YES I had quite a few crazy moments, but I feel overall it was excellent, and as I said before, I gave a wonderful last ditch effort. The night before I moved, I made his favorite dinner, gave him a foot rub and had SF. I really wanted to kiss him, tell him I love him and hold him close, but I knew that would send off warning flags all over the place, so I decided against it. (He hadn't given me any affection other than when we were having SF for almost the entire 8 months).

I agree with October, that the majority of the Plan A's probably don't end the affair, and that is what they're designed to do, but the real effects are probably from Plan B. I am still hopeful that my WH will miss me, as I've said before I'm sure he does. I think his pride is probably not allowing him from thinking about it a great deal, but eventually I think that my memory will win out.

I did a few little sneaky things before I left.....like *accidentally* left a pair of my white lace thongs hanging in the closet (I always hung dried them in there) and sprayed his pillow with my perfume.

Okay, sorry that was a little long winded...LOL, I get on tangents once in a while <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

-Caren


Always Look For Grace Given, Even in the midst of Grace Denied.

BS-Me 39
WH-37
Together 15 years
Married 12 years
7 kids total, His: SD20, SS18, Twin SS's 16.
Mine: DD22, DD15
Ours: DD12
Affair began Fall 04, Separated Fall 04,2 Failed Plan B attempts, False recovery of sorts Spring 05.......Still pluggin' away.
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Thanks ladies, it's great to have this kind of input! I feel MUCH better. I DID do my best through all of this. I know that. It's true that at the end of the day I'll be able to say I gave it my best shot.

I do hope WH misses me. Not that it'll make any difference at the moment, though! He's rationalizing so much it's frightening. See, him leaving is something he needed to do for himself, to stop the "abuse" and "protect his inner child". He sees his feelings right now as "grief". (I've pointed out that it cannot be grief because what differentiates grief from other types of sadness is that in theory the grief would automatically end when what you have lost is restored to you. And he doesn't want to restore any what he's lost. Didn't quite sink in. Makes too much sense, I suppose.) When he first left, he told me, "I don't miss you in my life. I miss your family, but I don't miss you." He said the same thing to my sister. After he was so vile on the 24th, I said to him, "You know, you did me a great favor. This morning I spent two hours crying about how I would miss you for Christmas. Your actions today have ensured that I won't. As much as you don't miss me, I won't miss you." And you know what he said, "Who says I don't miss you?!" And I'm like, "You did!" And he's arguing that he didn't! In the end I said, "Well, I miss you, the real H I used to know, but this you are right now? No way." And it made him rather huffy! I mean... what the heck? Go insane, call your wife a f****** b****, and expect she's going to MISS YOU? Whatever!


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Yeah, they don't make tons of sense I agree.

I'm not sure how they reconcile it all in their minds, how could they possibly??? It makes no sense at all....he wants to divorce me, but doesn't want me out of his life, and divorcing me takes money, but let's spend it all on cars and dogs.

I finally got my living room at least totally organized, it's actually clean!! I'm so happy. The kitchen is 1/2 way there, there's no dirty dishes or anything, just clutter and I need to buy a trash can, I can't stand to see just a trash bag sitting on the floor, and I also need to mop. And then there's the upstair, holy crap it looks terrible...lol, but I'm going to work on that tommorrow. I figure I'll feel a whole lot better when it looks like someplace someone may want to live...lol.

In my other apartment, I didn't hang any of my pictures, I was SERIOUSLY depressed, and it didn't feel like home. I said that on more than one occasion, I cried and felt like I didn't have a home......Mark was home to me...wherever he was that was home. But when I was sitting in my freshly cleaned living room, all pretty and most of my pictures and knick knacks up, and I thought, this is nice. And it doesn't feel like the other apartment did....I think I might be able to call this place home. I really like the new coffee table and end tables I bought, the ones I had before I moved back in with Mark were like 10 years old, and I was frankly sick of looking at them (compounded by the fact that Mark's house was smaller than my apartment now is, and there was no room), so I gave them to my sister.....who is an ummmmmmm really bad housekeeper, even on my worst days she made me look like Martha Stewart...you can smell the cat pee cookin' off of her house from the driveway....yick. I went over there one time since I gave her the tables, and it was shortly after Halloween, and she had let her kids carve their pumpkins on the table, and the pumpkin guts were still sitting there dried in huge piles....I was like, well....guess I don't ever want those back...LOL!!!!

River - I'm so glad that you're feeling a little better about your Plan A. I know that hearing other ppl's stories helps a lot. At least it helps me. Makes me feel like I'm not alone in the universe anyway.

I'm really, really glad that I have some people to talk to that are in Plan B now. Before I had a really hard time taking advice. It would make sense to me, but I could rarely go through with any of it. I'm sure that a lot of people wanted to smack me LOL!!! I know that if I had been giving me advice I would have said "Okay, this chick doesn't listen to anything we say...and then comes back whining later...forget her" But, alas, they didn't abandon me, they had no choice but to leave me to my own devices, it was blatantly obvious I was going to do it anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't know if you read lemonman's surprised reply to me, I'm sure he'd written me off as a lost cause, and all of the sudden I got some gumption and did it. I guess you can only muck through crap for so long before you finally decide you're done with it.

When I was putting stuff away today (like wedding albums) I actually stopped and paged through one real quick. And I was able to smile about it, and instead of sitting there and crying and bemoaning my fate, I said "Look at that man, he loves me, he just forgot." and laughed about it.

I am finding myself, and I wouldn't have believed how much I missed me.....I used to be such a fun person, but I really walled myself off and focused only on the marriage....well with that white hot light off of my relationship, I can refocus on me, and I like what I'm finding. ANY man would be dang lucky to have me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have a great night hon, I'll check back tommorrow....or maybe tonight after the drag show...LOL, I'll either be so tired I'm ready to drop or really keyed up after that...LOL!!

Good luck and God Bless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Caren


Always Look For Grace Given, Even in the midst of Grace Denied.

BS-Me 39
WH-37
Together 15 years
Married 12 years
7 kids total, His: SD20, SS18, Twin SS's 16.
Mine: DD22, DD15
Ours: DD12
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Thanks, Caren. I totally get how important it is have a decent "nest", and although I'm a pretty cruddy housekeeper I value comfort really highly and always strive for that.

It's been REALLY interesting to read how you and others have taken several goes for Plan B to stick. I guess you've gotta really know something before you actually "know" it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Report back on that drag show, yeah? Sounds pretty cool.


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LOL, yep will do. I'm waiting for my friend to come pick me up right now.

OMG River, if you only knew what a bad housekeeper I used to be, it was one of my husband's top EN's but it wasn't remotely important to me, so I let it go. But after plan A, knowing how important it was to him, I've been the cleaning machine, and you'd think it would've just been for him.....but now I can't stand the house to be dirty anymore either. So, I guess it was really self-improvement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'll talk at 'cha later.

God Bless,

-Caren


Always Look For Grace Given, Even in the midst of Grace Denied.

BS-Me 39
WH-37
Together 15 years
Married 12 years
7 kids total, His: SD20, SS18, Twin SS's 16.
Mine: DD22, DD15
Ours: DD12
Affair began Fall 04, Separated Fall 04,2 Failed Plan B attempts, False recovery of sorts Spring 05.......Still pluggin' away.
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I am finding myself, and I wouldn't have believed how much I missed me.....I used to be such a fun person, but I really walled myself off and focused only on the marriage....well with that white hot light off of my relationship, I can refocus on me, and I like what I'm finding.
Ummm... just wondering out loud... who maintains the Really-Cool-Things-To-Read archives? :-)

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Hee hee.:) It IS cool.

Thing about me though... I never lost myself in the marriage. I DID lose myself when WH left, though. I was plunged into deep and stormy waters, and it took a while to get me out again. I am out now, and the person I used to be before this, except I'm bigger, stronger, better (cue the Six Million Dollar Man music!). Only thing I WISH I could do is devote less mental and emotional strength to this. A part of my brain says to me, "Enough, already!"


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A part of my brain says to me, "Enough, already!"
Yep... the brain figures something out, and then the ol' heart gets in the way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
As I've figured out (I think), no matter what happens, it takes a while before they both get their act together at the same time!

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LOL! Can't wait for the day!


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Only thing I WISH I could do is devote less mental and emotional strength to this.


You'll get there River.

I don't know that I lost myself in the marriage, I lost myself once this *A* stuff started happening. I was so scared I didn't know what to do. I was in a panic constantly. Everything I did or said seemed like a life or death decision.

I can totally sympathize with you, but you know what else? I can feel your strength, and I know that you're gonna be okay. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

Caren

BTW, thank you tqt, I can always count on you being my cheerleader <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Nice skirt by the way)


Always Look For Grace Given, Even in the midst of Grace Denied.

BS-Me 39
WH-37
Together 15 years
Married 12 years
7 kids total, His: SD20, SS18, Twin SS's 16.
Mine: DD22, DD15
Ours: DD12
Affair began Fall 04, Separated Fall 04,2 Failed Plan B attempts, False recovery of sorts Spring 05.......Still pluggin' away.

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