LA and Mulan,

Ok... Here's a new thread. I don't know what to say or do. I'm a bad-guy for wanting my W to commit to TRYING. I'm selfish because I want to be loved too.

And, I guess I'm unforgiveable.

She says she wants space. Fine, I do give her space. Of course, she tends to use it to contact OM, but I guess I shouldn't know because I was invading her space.

Why am I the bad guy for trying to save the M?

She acts like I don't approve of her feelings, but that's not true. I accept her *feelings* as hers. She has a right to them, and there are probably reasonably good reasons for them... or at least they are probably not entirely irrational. However, I *DO* have a problem with her ACTIONS.

Why is it that when I mentioned to her that I cannot stop her from contacting OM that she threw that back in my face when I found out about her continuing contact and asked her to stop?

Why does she get to call the shots? Actually, I know the answer to that. Whoever loves less controls the relationship. (My Dad's proverb) Combined with Frank Herbert's line from Dune "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing!"

This is all a dance to her music and at her tempo. She says she's done caring about what I think... She stopped caring about me a LONG time ago. She didn't stay to help me though my Depression because she wanted to help me, according to her story, it was because she didn't want to look bad.

That's not the truth, though. It was during that time that she admitted some of her A to me all on her own and said she wanted to fix our M.

I really ought to change my name back to "TheDupe."

What a wonderful title, too!

(((TD)))

Seems to me that you keep trying to prove with words because you refuse to look to your actions as proof. You made the thread. You prove you will do the best you can for marriage with what you know now. See and know that, 'k?

This is your own thread. It's not a place to try to talk to your wife from. "I'm a bad-guy for wanting my W to commit to TRYING. I'm selfish because I want to be loved too."

Can you begin with "I feel like I'm seen as the bad guy by others and my W. I want to be loved. I want to feel loved right now."

Say your truth with "I" statements. We'll get it. We're listening.

"I feel unforgiveable. I'm doing amends for my past actions and I'm not getting forgiven. I want to be forgiven."

Can you find some self-forgiveness inside because you are actively trying to amend? Half of an apology is recognizing where you offended. You've done that. Could some of that not feeling forgiven be coming from inside of you?

"She says she wants space. Fine, I do give her space. Of course, she tends to use it to contact OM, but I guess I shouldn't know because I was invading her space." Can you acknowledge that you feel childish right now? That you are freshly hurting and wanting to strike back? Are you really wanting to say, "I fear her contacting OM every moment. I fear being duped, lied to and used?"

You can state your thoughts and feelings here.

"I accept her *feelings* as hers." I know you believe this in your mind, but I don't think that belief has reached you all the way in, because then you say, " and there are probably reasonably good reasons for them... or at least they are probably not entirely irrational."

True acceptance does not judge. Do not judge the reasons for her emotions, their validity or rationality. Don't judge them. They are. And they are information for HER not for you. Her feelings aren't telling you how you should feel. Nor the reverse. Your obligation is to know your own feelings and state them here.

Why do you believe this? "Why does she get to call the shots? Actually, I know the answer to that. Whoever loves less controls the relationship. (My Dad's proverb) Combined with Frank Herbert's line from Dune "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing!" And what does it do to you believing this?

LA

"My truth" -

hmmm...

My truth is that I'm trying as hard as I can. My truth is that I am afraid to stop because she's pulling away, and a large part of us getting to this point was because I didn't stand up affirmatively for our M before the A.

My truth is that I hurt worse than I can say, and before I found that she had secretly bought a pre-paid phone, I had let go of the pain. Really.

I had forgiven my W. I think I still have.

My truth is that I *DO* love her. Not in the selfish way I used to, in that I wanted her to make me happy. Now I don't look to her to be the source of my happiness, however, I do care about her so she has access to my heart and CAN (as she has) hurt me.

My truth is that I don't hate myself anymore. For years, not only did I not love myself, I despised myself. I had had cancer as a teenager and had internalized (improperly) that since God doesn't make mistakes that I must DESERVE cancer. I never recovered. Crystal connected me to human emotion unlike anything before. I cared for her far more than I cared for myself, and I guess that was the problem... Since I despised myself, I couldn't really love her properly, despite the fact that my love for her was sincere.

So now that I am past that. Now that I'm out of my depression; now that I don't loathe myself and am starting to enjoy being me, though I would like to be a little less me (about 35 lbs.); now she's decided to call it quits.

My truth is I *AM* trying to make-up for my past failures. I am not bringing my former depression up as an excuse for my past failures. I accept that I broke her heart, and I am doing everything in my power to treat her right.

My truth is that it's not that I want forgiveness from her, though that would be nice, it's that I want her to learn to forgive for herself. She's acting like her mother. Obviously, that's where she learned it, and she's going to drive away everyone close to her over time by accumulating too much cause to despise each and every person she gets close to. If she leaves me and doesn't learn to forgive, not only will she end up entering another relationship with someone else, and re-creating the exact same scenario, but she'll eventually drive her children away because they will disappoint her over time, too.

I want her to learn to forgive because it's what SHE needs.

I want to save the M because I *DO* love her because I chose to love her, and when I promised "Till Death Do Us Part," I meant it. Besides, since I've already had 2 bouts with cancer, she really can't expect that built-in escape-clause to take too much longer, right?

Anyway, there are lots of good rational reasons why we should stay married. In my book, they are far better than any set of reasons for ending the marriage. Nevertheless, I guess the bedrock reason I am fighting for the M is that I DO love her, and I want the opportunity to make-up for my past insensitivity to my very best friend. She's been my best friend for almost half my life, and the thought of losing that in large part because I let her down is too much to bear. The thought that I broke her heart so badly that she won't even let me try to make it up to her hurts as bad as, or worse than the A.

TD -

Well, I don't think we are going to reach your wife. She is determined to do it her way. It makes no difference if she reads the statistics. It makes me sad that she is just going to continue trashing her life.

My suggestion to you is let her move out, and go to Plan B. The continued disappointments will make you lose your love for her. Believe me, I know. I hung in there for 3 years. Finally I got to the point where I didn't care anymore.

I can't stop her if she wants to go, but I cannot, in good faith, give up while she's still here.

If she's here and willing to talk to Jennifer, then I'll keep some hope alive.

What's almost funny is that I heard on the radio this week on the "Family Life Today" program, most of a 3-part interview with the author of a new book "Marriage Makeover." It's a more overtly Christian pro-marriage book that appears to incorporate most of the Harley's basic principles, but from a religious perspective.

Anyway, the author says he can guarantee if you can answer 3 questions honestly that his method will 100% for-sure work. The first question is "Do you believe in God?" The second question is "Do you believe God enough to obey him?" and the third question is "Will you ask God for the strength and engergy that you don't have in and of your self to accomplish the restoration of the marriage?"

(You can get to the audio and/or transcripts of the broadcast here on 1/18 - 1/20: http://www.familylife.com/fltoday/broadcast_schedule.asp?past=1)

This marriage is SOOOOOOO salvagable. Right now Crystal says it's too monumental task to agree to work on, let alone actually accomplish, but it's really much simpler than she thinks.

Does every WS think it's unbearably preachy for you to say, "Look God wants our marriage to succeed! We CAN do it if we follow His plan. Would you please commit to Him. Don't commit to me, because I'm human and I'll fail, like every human, but you CAN commit to him without fear."

Am I being selfish?

Do I just sound weak?

"because she's pulling away"

"I feel fear. I believe she's pulling away." I'm just trying to keep you on track with your truth and show you how to do this. Please trust me that this is important.

"large part of us getting to this point was because I didn't stand up affirmatively for our M before the A." Does this mean you feel shame? Guilt? Regret? Remorse? Are you saying you believe this is your fault, that you fear her pulling away, or your fault that you believe she is pulling away?

I know you hurt very much. I know you are in a lot of pain. My heart feels for you as it does for her. I get that.

I hear you say that you had let your pain go before. How do you let pain go? You can undo beliefs that lead to your pain...if you no longer believe that someone is actively rejecting you, then you can let go of that belief and the pain leaves. You feel actively betrayed with finding out about the cell phone. That's valid. And it doesn't sound like there's an unreasonable belief underneath that pain. Deceit is deceit and it hurts. She did that. You feel this. It is valid. You can't argue it away or change it. It is a fact that hurts. Period. Sitting with it means finding all the layers to your expectations: You may have trusted her not to hide anymore, not to actively look for a way out anymore (even it was only a week, doesn't matter--I know how long your pain makes the hours go); you lost security and hope from her deceit, because these are things you got from your expectations.

Forgiveness for the past has been done. Forgiveness for present is tougher. Please don't forgive what hasn't been asked for. Forgive yourself for having the hope of no contact demolished. You had the hope and it turned out untrue. You had the hope for her honesty and now you don't. You have control over that, not her.

Are you past despising yourself, even temporarily? You had the expectation that God gave you cancer because you deserved it. Do you have the expectation that you feel pain now because of your W's choices because you deserve them? You hated yourself for years--that's a long habit. It takes active loving yourself, forgiving yourself and knowing yourself worthy for years to be in the habit of it. You're on your way. It won't be perfect. You will feel self-hatred again. Know what emotions you have that signal that and challenge your belief again.

Your truth is that you changed and now you fear it is too late? For what? If Crystal decides against the marriage, you can't control that. What you have is a changed TD, because he was sick for not loving himself, most desired to embrace and accept himself. You have that. Still takes work, but you have that. Her leaving will not take YOU away.

You did well to say your truth until here:

"My truth is that it's not that I want forgiveness from her, though that would be nice," Are you seriously telling me that you do not desire to be accepted, loved, forgiven, embraced and celebrated? Though it would be nice? Please be honest with yourself and what you want. That doesn't mean you have the means to get it right now. You have the means to be honest with yourself. Once you strayed from your truth you lost yourself into her again. You just betrayed yourself right here, in this paragraph.

Want to make that up to yourself? Turn that paragraph back around to where it is within your control. Using sentence by sentence:

"Do I want to learn to forgive myself?"
"Am I acting like my father?"
"Did I learn behaviors from my father? Do I fear being him?"
"Do I fear driving everyone away from me, especially Crystal? Do I feel like I have always done that, and if so, what were my reasons?"
"Do I hold causes to despise and pile them up like a barrier?"
"From that, do I believe that tit for tat is justice?"
"If I leave Crystal, will I learn all the lessons from this marriage?"
"I know that replacing Crystal does not fix my life. Do I fear recreating these problems again and again within my own marriage?"
"Do I fear driving my children away?"

I love that you love your humor and I appreciate it, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Try to keep your focus on your own honesty. Beneath you feeling marked bad (by cancer, rejection, whatever), that you deserved it, your inner child still feels and believes that way. Concentrate on you, knowing and loving yourself, and let what she is doing/not doing; saying/not saying; her present and future be hers. Trust her enough to own her own stuff. She has her own lessons and you have yours. It will get really messy when you can't tell the difference between them.

Could you try the Peter method for me? When your wife says her truth, restate it back to her. If you don't agree with her opinion, after restating and having her confirm you got it, say, "I don't agree with you, but I respect that we can believe differently. I appreciate you sharing." Do that three times. I'm referring to Peter in the bible. Three times.

If she says, "I can see how this marriage can be saved."
"I hear you cannot see how this marriage can be saved. I have a different opinion. I can see very clearly how marriages like ours endure and thrive. I respect that you don't hold the same opinion."

That's all.

You did not make her have an affair. You are working on your part of the problems in the marriage. What are those? What is still your part now that you've changed?

Supporting you the only way I know how,
LA

LA

Shame, guilt, regret, remorse, etc. All of 'em. In hindsight what I should have been doing to protect my W and our M looks so obvious, but I just totally missed it back then. I don't accept blame for her choices, because only she can. However, I do believe I, as the husband, have a greater responibility to God for the life and maintenance of our M, and a duty to protect my W's heart that I did not adequately fulfill.


I never think it wrong to hope for the best. If anything I didn't work with her when there were moments of opportunity to establish high enough fences to discourage contact, but I don't count it a fault in myself for hoping for the best. I don't have the hope of her honesty, now, but I have the hope that I will have that hope soon... Again, perhaps "TheDupe" really does fit me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


No, I don't think I do dispise myself at all anymore. I do recognize the warning signs and know the techniques of nipping those thougths and feelings in the bud before they pull me down into depression. Over the summer I did dispise myself and became suicidal when it looked like I would lose Crystal. But I'm far from that place and am much stronger (emotionally) than I've ever been before.


I'm not afraid of losing me... This M has a lot of good to it and I don't thing we either one ever gave it the effort it deserved. I know Crystal will say she worked her butt off for the first 12 years, and she did, but it wasn't in a way that was designed to foster the health of the marriage. Her efforts were all on her own strength and towards the maintenance of the household. That was important, but the marriage itself was neglected by both of us because we just didn't know how to nurture the relationship.


Actually, I understand forgiveness a bit differently than you, I think. Forgiveness is for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving, not for the forgiven. The primary benefit for the one who has been forgiven is to relieve (at least somewhat) whatever regret for the pain they caused. No, I believe that forgivenss is to cut the tie between the injured and the emotional pain. It doesn't undo the wrong, and it doesn't absolve the wrongdoer.

Perhaps that's why the phone bothered me so much. I had truly enjoyed the feeling of lightness I got from forgiving my W. I had let go of the pain of the A and didn't need to carry it around anymore. However when the cell-phone thing came up, it was a fresh cut into the tender recently healed flesh of my heart.

Of course I want to be loved, and celebrated, and all the rest. Of course. But in my mind that's a slightly different thing than being forgiven. I want Crystal to forgive so she doesn't have to be burried under a life of pain. Yes, I do believe that she will be able to relatively quickly re-find her feelings of romantic love for me when she's able to forgive me, herself, her mother, her father, God, and everyone else her heart feels as though she's been wronged by in the past.

(NOTE: I'm not saying that God wronged her, but as we all know, we human beings sometimes assign blame wrongly, and accuse God of harming us, and so we need to go through the process of letting go of that pain, and then of asking God's forgiveness for blaming Him.)

Since you were so conscientious as to break down the paragraph in separate questions, I'll answer them...

"Do I want to learn to forgive myself?"
-- Yes, and I think I have to a very large degree.

"Am I acting like my father?"
-- In many ways, there are far worse things than my Dad. I know there are some of his failings that I picked up, but my kids could do far worse than have my Dad as a father. I hope I'm at least a little better, though.

"Did I learn behaviors from my father? Do I fear being him?"
-- Some from him. Some from my mom. Some of my behaviors have been honed through years of being with Crystal. And a few I picked up at a Wal-Mart scratch-and-dent sale.

"Do I fear driving everyone away from me, especially Crystal? Do I feel like I have always done that, and if so, what were my reasons?"
-- No, I don't think so. I never really bothered with close relationships before. I didn't have much on the inside because the undiagnosed depression I had had since I was a teen-ager left me a cognitive shell of a person... Almost no ability to emotionally connect with other people. Crystal was my one connection to the world of human emotions for nearly all of our relationship. I was (am) a nice guy, but my friends were not much more than skin-deep.

Now, I feel alive and able to connect to other people, and so I'm not afraid of being alone if Crystal isn't in my life, but I value her and WANT her in my life.

"Do I hold causes to despise and pile them up like a barrier?"
-- No. When there is a real problem with a close loved one, I fight through it. That's the way my family has always been. We may need to take an hour break, or even half a day, but we NEVER let arguments fester for days or weeks or months or years. This stuff is like an infection and I want it cut out of our relationship. It's poisoning every interaction, and I am only half of us, so I can't let it go for the both of us.

"From that, do I believe that tit for tat is justice?"
-- No, but I want her to hea the bit of truth I have, and I'm so frustrated with her. I know it's foolish, but I want to believe that somehow a rational and logical discussion will break through the anger and resentment.

"If I leave Crystal, will I learn all the lessons from this marriage?"
-- Of course not.

"I know that replacing Crystal does not fix my life. Do I fear recreating these problems again and again within my own marriage?"
-- No. I've learned a number of very real lessons about myself and about life. I'm a new person on the inside, though I gues I am still functioning through a brain and body that's accustomed to performing in old ways... So, I'm learning new habits that reflect the new person on the inside.

"Do I fear driving my children away?"
-- No, but I do fear failing as a father by not protecting them from the harm of Divorce if there's *something* I could do to convince Crystal to give herself without reservation to the recovery and find that love really can be found in this marriage. They deserve so much better than that, and I'm sad that I played such a large part in placing them in danger of living through a divorce.



Fair 'nuff. I will.


And I do appreciate it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Back to the theraputic part...

I feel like we might have taken a baby-step last night. Crystal and I braved some face-to-face conversation.

I appologized for the LBs of yesterdays posts. I asked her if she could see *why* I would feel the way I did.

It took a long time till we got anywhere. She even refused to sleep in the bedroom with me.

So, I went down to the family room where she'd set up camp to talk to her for a while.

She thought my allusions to her being like her mother were made to be mean. They weren't. I know she doesn't want to be like her mother even as she performs in the modes she learned from her. The one, or at least the biggest, thing her mother never learned was to forgive.

Aussiewife asked if I had really taken my forgiveness talk to heart for myself on the other thread. The answer is yes. I'm not perfect. Forgiveness is a lifestyle and a process, not an event. The events of Friday night and Saturday were fresh wounds all of their own. They cut into the flesh of the recently healed places on my heart from forgiving from the A. They brought up some fears associated with the A, but the pain I felt was new.

I tried to forgive. I tried... I tried... I tried. I wanted free of the pain. Forgiveness had freed me of the pain of the A, but I couldn't get there yesterday.

So. As the day turned to evening, the freshess of the pain began to subside enough to really begin the process of forgiving again. I don't know if it's complete, but it's truly begun now.

When Crystal and I actually began to talk, and not just size-up each other from the days' postings, I told her that I don't hate her. She thought that was a lie. Then I spoke to her of my feelings and my failings. I told her of the magnitude of the task of forgiving, and the transcendent relief when one does forgive.

I told her that I don't want her to be like her mother. Whether or not we stay together, all she's doing now is running away from the fortress of unforgivness she's built up, and not dismanteling it. And then she broke down and asked how can you forgive someone who's taken a third of your life away? (me)

I got to talk to her a bit more about the process of forgivenss, and I think some of it stuck.

She still wouldn't come up to our bedroom, but in the morning, when I came downstairs, she invited me to cuddle with her for a while. Today has been more tender. I think we're both a little skittish... How solid is our truce? Will I start pushing her to forgive like I, or will I stand back and be there to walk with her towards forgiveness when and as she decides to take those steps? Is there more pain and surprise waiting for me?

It's a new day... A better day than yesterday. I pray we make the most of it and bless each other with some love.

TD, I will make the same suggestion to you that I made to C43:

Get two copies of *His Needs, Her Needs.* You both read it and understand it and see how it can apply to you.

While waiting for your copies to arrive, you can print out two copies of the Emotional Needs questionnaire right here on this site and fill it out. Many couples have found this very helpful in understanding each other better.

It will give you a positive place to start after all the carnage you have been through.

Just a thought.
Mulan

By way of continued therapy -

I was just reading Pepperband's ("Madam Pep's")thread how Dr. Harley's a smart fellow... I found this post and thought it was exceptionally interesting.


How does one start a lifestyle of POJA? Are there pre-requisites that must exist in the relationship before POJA can be effectively implimented? (e.g. Policy of Radical Honesty)

Anyway, I could go for some advice, but if not, I suppose I'll cogitate on this by myself for a while.

BTW, Mulan, I forgot to mention, we DO have ONE copy of His Needs, Her Needs, and we've both filled out the EN questionnaire (sp?) previously.

***BTW, Mulan, I forgot to mention, we DO have ONE copy of His Needs, Her Needs, and we've both filled out the EN questionnaire (sp?) previously.***

So, what were the results? And how long ago did to fill it out? someitmes it doesn't hurt to do it again, after you've learned more about ENs.
Mulan

Jennifer had Crystal fill hers out last weekend (love busters too). Jennifer said she would have me fill one out in a week or two after we sorta triage the relationship to the point where we can start jointly working on the M.

We both filled them out, however, over the summer.

I think that my biggest ENs were for Admiration and SF. I can't remember the rest.

Hers have changed and now her top 2 are Affection and an attractive spouse. I guess it's probably an LB to get affection from a non-attractive spouse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Today's been a reasonably good day, all things considered.

Crystal and I have been able to talk a couple times, and I think she *wants* to forgive and let go of the years of pain. I hope I'm providing the right kind of support that she needs.

She and I spoke for a few minutes and she was pretty honest about where she was. If we didn't have kids, she has no doubts she would be out the door. Okay. I accept that, and I'm glad she feels safe enough to tell me that.

But then we had a discussion about my future. Will my working as an attorney doom any possible recovery? I know that I have some tendancies to bury myself in work, so am I asking her to be stupid and put herself back where she was - lonely in a relationship without an absent H?

I know it's a legitimate question. Experience is a good teacher, and wisdom learns from experience, so without changes in me, it would be fairly unreasonable to hope for anything different.

BUT -

She HAS seen some changes. With my dedication to her... To the kids... To myself. If I stay on the trajectory, I'm certainly becoming the man she was hoping I would be. That's a HUGE if in her book.

All I could offer her is that I know the truth of the statement that you don't know what you have until you (almost) lose it. I don't hate myself anymore so I'm not looking for validation from external sources, and I'm not expecting her to be my link to human emotions. Also, with my awareness of the priority of the family, I can honestly say I would rather lose a job than lose my family.

I can't promise what the future will look like, but I do know a new life has started in me. I'm not instantly new. I'm working the new life into me... slowly but surely.

I sure hope she sees it.

TD - I think I told you about my sis, the attorney. She went to Harvard when she was 42, and is now a partner in a Seattle law firm.

She has no life. She loves her job, but works 7 days a week from about 8:00AM til 8:00PM. She hasn't had a date since she went to school.

Also there are firm "get-togethers" where attendance is mandatory. She came down to San Diego 2 years ago. I got to see her when she arrived at the airport - then she had a dinner to attend. I saw her the next morning after a mandatory breakfast, and then they were all going to lunch and a seminar.

I think you get the picture. For the whole weekend, I saw her for less than 2 hours. And we hadn't seen each other for 4 years before that.

And if that's the sort of firm where I get a job, I'll quit. It's not worth it.

We were thinking of moving to TX *because* it has a reputation as being a better place to live and work as an attorney.

If I have to work with a small shop for a while and make less money, and then open my own practice doing what I enjoy and having time for a life, then that's what I'll do. I'm not going to sacrifice my family for my job. No job is worth it.

I always used to say I work AT my company but I work FOR my family. I meant it then, in my heart, but I let my work consume me anyway. Now, I've grown enough to recognize what's important and I hope I have and am learning enough to recognize when I've not placed the right emphasis on my family before it gets to a crisis point.

Long story short... I don't want your sister's job. I don't care how much money she has (though I suppose I would like her money), it's just not worth the price.

My sister just called - It's Sunday night, her early night at work. She says she has to have 2200 billable hours a year. That is billable hours, not hours working. And if you decide to be a litigator, sometimes you need to work all night.

How about working for the government? They are always looking for attorneys, and the hours are good.

This is something that my W posted on her thread. I wanted to comment on it, but out of respect, I'm not going to post on her thread...


I think she's right... We ARE doing better, overall. Yeah, Saturday was rough, but I think we took a step or two forward because of working through the cell-phone thing.

But it still stings to hear her say that she "really" doesn't like me.

One thing in particular - friends... good friends are NOT a-dime-a-dozen. Friends who are there 100% for your kids and who support you personally and financially are probably even more rare. Nevertheless, I know for her and I, being outgoing and making friends has never been our strong suit, and that has been as much of a reason as our moves that my W and I never had anybody to turn to but each other.

I guess I wanted some input from the collective on that quote. Is it normal for a WS (or any spouse who is seriously contemplating moving forward to divorce) to go through a stage of "I don't like him/her at all even though I don't hate him/her"?

Does it make sense to say that you don't like someone you then say you consider to be a great friend?

I don't want to LB her over this. I know it's her emotional truth, but I need to work through it too.

Thanks.

TD -


What you wrote rings so absolutely true with me in regards to MP and I's situation. We're only about 4 weeks into recovery, 3 months after the A. I have learned a lot about what I did that was wrong in our marriage.

I count myself as truly blessed, way more than I (or at least the old me) deserved. In my case, I'm having a very difficult time forgiving myself for one particular issue, and MP is also struggling with forgiving herself for other things.

Hang in there....I don't know where you are in recovery, but it sounds like your wife is willing (at least to some degree) to give it a chance. Continue to work on yourself, and seize every opporunity she gives you to show and demonstrate your changes to her. Continue to demonstrate the new you to her, even when you're not sure she's accepting it (or is actively not accepting it).

Work on what you can, and leave the rest in God's hands. Listen to God, and He will direct you in what to do and what to work on.

So much of what you have written in this thread rings true with me. I do not know what help I can give you, but if you want at the least a willing listening ear that can identify with a good deal of what you're going through, you can reach me at the e-mail address in my sig.

Take care, and keep fighting for your marriage. It is worth it, and so are you.

Thanks Brokenbird,

It's good knowing I'm not alone.

I just wish I understood the state and condition of my W's heart. I know she wants to do the right thing, but I also know she doesn't think she can handle a continuation of the misery she felt leading up to the A.

I know she doesn't *feel* any love for me, right now. I don't really expect her to at this point... Though I hope and wish and pray that she'll feel *some* flickers of affection for me soon.

Then again... I know I can love someone important to me even when I don't like them, and so maybe that's where she is. Do you suppose that feelings of "like" are really close to feelings of affection? Do you suppose that, even though she won't SAY that she loves me, and is certain that she doesn't FEEL any love for me, that perhaps the fact that she's willing to work on things now means that there really is some love hidden underneath the feelings that are apparent to her?

Perhaps I'm just grasping for hope too desparately. I can continue to go on like this as long as I need to, I think, but it sure would be nice to dip into the cool waters of an oasis of affection from her on this long road of recovery.