I just found out two weeks ago yesterday. But this is not the first time. Been married 23 years to a man, for some reason, that I deeply love. Ten years ago he came to me telling me how he had fallen in love with a co-worker. We had just built the house of our dreams on nine lovely acres in the country. I was a stay-at-home mom with three great boys. Educated, I was getting back in the groove by teaching at a local community college. Lots of work preparing classes, getting the kids adjusted, longer commute, etc. It took a year of therapy, three years of doubts, we read all of Dr. Hartley's materials (they help, but more about this later)for me to get over the hurt, anger, pain, rejection, and feelings of failure. Now my youngest is now in HS, my older ones in college. I work full time and took on extra assignments to pay the bills. Very busy. Found emails, love poems, etc while cleaning up computer files while he was out of town. On a whim, he contacted his first girlfriend - started with lunches, etc. So, here we go again. This time is a not as bad - partly due to the fact that I immediately went to my physician and she gave me some medication to help with the anxiety. It really does help me talk calmly to my husband about it.

This is my personal opinion on the whole subject. Affairs happen because of the shortcomings of the betrayer. His needs her needs, give and take, policy of joint agreement, policy of honesty - they're all great books to read to learn how to communicate, respect, and love one another. They help forge a bond where you can see your partner more clearly. But I read a great review while searching amazon.com for books (again!) on the subject, words that I could finally identify with. One review(for a book written by Brown)had this to say:

"The notion that infidelity always reveals somethng about the marriage continues to impose on couples demands that no one in any other realm of health care would countenance. That an affair has occurred obviously means that the marriage was vulnerable. That the pattern of marital interaction allowed it to happen. That does not mean that the affair is a function of that pattern.....Sometimes we choose dishonorable ways of feeling better because of our own shortcomings. This is not a shortcoming of your marriage. Nothing ever makes an individual trustworthy except his or her own good character. An affair need not show anything wrong with the marriage, but it ALWAYS shows unreliable character - a person who does not keep promises and engages in deceit is, by definition, unreliable. Yes, you might be able to decrease the partner's unhappiness; then THEN YOU WILL HAVE TAKEN THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR KEEPING THE PARTNER HAPPY ENOUGH THAT HE OR SHE WON'T DO WHAT THEY SHOULD NEVER BE WILLING TO DO ANYWAY"

Not that I am a perfect angel - I am not. I am an extrovert and analytical. He is an introvert and very feeling. Somehow the personalities compliment each other and I feel he completes me. I am also perfectionist and people pleaser, and that combination can make me a nervous wreck and drive him nuts! However, when I behave in ways he doesn't like, he has three choices. He can tell me to cut it out (remind me that I'm engaging in a love buster). He can help me through it. Or he can go off with the guys to get away for a while. But my behavior does not give him license to lie and cheat. Now I have a huge decision to make because I told him in no uncertain terms that his infidelity was not acceptable to me and that if it happened again, I would have to end it. Well, saying and doing are two different things.

Does this ring home? I think the betrayer needs to find out why they aren't comfortable with themselves. We went through therapy last time and it helped me understand how to communicate better with my life-partner, but it didn't get to the core of why my husband would risk so much to satisfy a "need" in him. He says he loves me - and has finally recognized that he is "searching" for something, but he doesn't know what that is. Be careful of therapists who play the blame game, or allow you to bring up past hurts - it is not helpful. Find a MC that will keep you in the here and now, and will eventually want to talk to your husband alone about why he is not comfortable with who he is and tries to help him communicate with himself - the lack of which manifests in risky behavior.

Was this helpful? single choice

yes (80%, 8 Votes)

no (10%, 1 Votes)

somewhat (10%, 1 Votes)

Total Votes: 10 Voting on this poll ends: 01/30/06 07:40 AM

D-day #2 must really hurt --- A LOT !!!

what have you decided to do?

I don't know. We start counseling tomorrow. He is reading everything he can to try to save this, but he wants me to take some of the blame for not stroking his ego constantly. Maybe I have more self esteem than he does, because I've never required constant ego stroking. But just because I don't compliment him constantly, doesn't mean he gets to run to someone else who will! I honestly don't think I can go through the next 10 years wondering if he will do it again

Hello twotimes,




I agree wholeheartedly.It's similar to what I say all the time.Affairs are all about the INDIVIDUAL.NOT the marriage.Marriage is blamed all the time.Blame shifting is what I call it.If we blame the marriage then people don't have to take responsibility.Around here it's been called: "creating an environment",or an "atmosphere" or "state". It's all hogwash to me.

I have been around here long enough to have come to realize this long ago.It makes no difference at all if you take on all the blame,it still comes down to the INDIVIDUALS CHOICE to handle marital/personal problems in the most painful,selfish and destructive way you can in marriage.

There are several posters who have come through here and they are backpedaling like crazy trying to make up for what,I don't know,but they obviously felt that if they did something better,longer,faster,sexier,etc,etc etc then the A might not have happened.It's about the INDIVIDUALS character,values,beliefs and choices.Lack of love, integrity and care too.

Personally,a second time around is a dealbreaker for me.I know it would be.After all the pain and suffering I went through and my WH witnessing all the destruction around from his choice,if he did that to me AGAIN,I could not ever FATHOM staying with a man who would wantonly do it again.

I wish you much luck in your decision.I know how hard it will be.

O

I agree completely. The meeting needs theory is great and very important for a good marriage. The problem is that in a long term marriage, there are always going to be times where some needs aren't being met.

People get sick, kids get sick, parents get sick, and need extra effort and time. Folks are in grad school, have pressures and deadlines at work.

When you read the WS complaints here, some are very shallow - she didn't like to kiss, didn't clean the house clean enough, he was busy working and going to school, he was depressed, and on and on.

I am getting a divorce - my husband's choice, but the longer I think about it, the more I know that I don't want to put the energy into a marriage where one partner tosses it aside so easily.

Octobergirl,

Does the divorce part scare you? I've been with this man since I was 22 years old, now 48. I work with lots of lonely women. If my man is willing to fix himself, should I stay or start over? Either choice is difficult. I told him so this morning - he wanted a hug and so I hugged him, which made me cry. I told him I wasn't strong enough to go through the next 10 years either way. I'm in a really tough spot right now

thanks for your encouragement

I'm thinking that this came out much more harsh than you really feel. When I read this, it says to me:
"so what if your needs aren't met",
"your needs aren't the same as mine so they are less important"
" get over it"

Now please don't misunderstand. I do not in anyway condone his actions. I was ignored, and minimized by my STBX most of our marriage. But I never cheated, I cried out for some attention, then I withdrew. I withdrew in an attempt to insulate myself from my wife's "who cares what you want" attitude. Perhaps if I wasn't raised the way I was I may have looked for my needs to be met elsewhere. Instead I choose depravation and isolation. The only thing my STBX was concerned with was my wallet.

I don't for a minute believe that is how you are. You are on MB. Concerning yourself with marriage building, not self-serving cake eating. Your not just lurking about, you are participating.

You H has to completely own his actions. Even if he felt ignored by you, even if he felt you weren't meeting his needs, he had no right to cheat. He should have fixed his marriage, got out, or suffered like I did.

On the other hand, ...
we talk about hope ... we talk about the future ...
will it happen again? Your worried and rightly so ...

He is worried too ..
worried his needs won't be met ....
His needs are important to him ... like your needs are important to you.

Have you read HNHN?

In a marriage, two become one.
You are in an exclusive relationship where he will only let you meet his most important needs. You agreed to meet them. If you don't do that ...... ?


.

I was worried my STBX would cheat again. She did.
I was worried my needs would continue to go unmet. They did.

I'm a huge steelers fan! Have been since the 70s!


Maybe I did sound too harsh - I didn't give the entire history. We've read all the books - I have needs for romance, conversation and recreation. He has needs for sex, for me to look my best, and recreation. That's what we discovered nine years ago. I have lost weight, worked out, have my hair done professionally and don't deny him ever (unless its that time of the month). I've begged to take hikes, bicycle trails, trips to family. Often he says he doesn't feel like it. Even when we jog - he sometimes will go ahead of me.

I feel that my husband has always put me second. Behind his friends, his fishing, his work, and the need for him to be by himself. I know I shouldn't do this, but as an example, when I had my second child by C-section, my first was only 23 months old. I was home from the hospital for 2 days, when at the dinner table he said "well I gotta go". I said what? He said he had to take a class for work and he couldn't miss it, because he missed the first one when the child was born and you can't miss two! Left me there with a toddler and a newborn and all the dishes, just coming off of surgery.

I sat there and cried and asked him if he knew this, why didn't he get someone in there to help me? He said he was sorry, just didn't think about it, and left.

These kinds of things have happened throughout our marriage and I really feel like it's been one-sided. He used to travel for work, and as soon as a buddy called to go out, he'd jump. I had three kids in five years and when I would tell him how alone I felt, he told me to go do something with my friends once in a while. Well, all my friends had babies and were doing things with their husbands!

I think that this time, like you, I withdrew and sort of went my own way. My kids are almost grown and the domestic scene isn't my first priority anymore. Went on vacation to my sister's by myself. I live in a house of men and needed some girl time. He brings that up as a reason - that we're not doing anything together and that we're taking separate vacations. Excuse me? He has always gone to the Lake on a whim with his friends. As a matter of fact, the first time this happened, I found out that our whole community (that we just moved to) knew about his affair before I did - when I found that out he was on two nigh fishing trip with his buddies (only 2 hours away). I was an absolute mess. But would he come home? No - he said he was "hosting" the weekend and couldn't leave!

So, this time, I think I did what you did - I shut down.
Maybe I did give up, but I really believe I have tried everything and every way I know how to make this man happy. Maybe I was trying to "make" him love me? Maybe he's not capable of taking care of anyone but himself.

He says he loves me and that he is desparately sorry, he doesn't want this life that we've built together to end. He can't beleive he did this again....He wants to figure out what he's missing in life and what he seems to be searching for. I personally think he's been a taker for so long that he's not getting much in return. He's reading give and take for the second time and he has told me that he agrees - he's been a huge taker.

But I don't trust anything right now. Sometimes I wonder if his only regret is that he got caught! I wonder if he's trying to manipulate my heart strings, hoping, like I always have, that I will once again put my arms around him and tell him how much I love him. Well, I gotta be honest - I'm in self-preservation mode right now and I can't sympathize with him. He needs to heal my hurt right now - I don't have the energy to help him fix himself.

So, time will tell - we're sleeping in the same bed because he's a wreck in the spare room, but I haven't let him touch me - can't go there yet. First counselor appt is today, together. I have my own counseling appt tomorrow.

Thanks for chatting - I appreciate your perspective. You sound like a great person and there are lots of loving, single women out there. You won't walk alone for long!

Twotimes -I agree completely. This is exactly what I have been trying to get across to others here. I feel my WH has the short comings and not me. Today I had a lightbulb moment at 5 am. Great more sleep lost over all of this. My H had been M before we met his M ended because his W left him. I now realize my H has an addictive personality and can not give up his OW. In his first M he had had an A. I believe now his wife left him and had revenge A's. I think he did not give up his OW even tho they had moved out of his home state. So now after 22 yrs with this man I am going thru this with him. I am not usre if he has give up his OW entirely. It is a fear that is there everyday. But he is so sneaky and smart he is able to hide things very well. I too do not want at my age to start over and lets face it that is a scary thing. I too have a new home we built with our own hands. There are days when I can feel my H is so into me and others when he seems distant. I can totally understand what you are going thru. I am sorry you are going thru this again. But doesn't this come down to the statement I have heard all my life "Once a cheat always a cheat".

Realtor, IMO the statement "once a cheat always a cheat" is not true for ALL WS’s and therefore this is a very generalized and inaccurate statement. Please read what I further have to say about it on this post (and to get other's opinions about it as well).

Me Too ...

... about Pittsburgh - born there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
... and about your H and M <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Your H sounds just like my STBX. Huge Taker. But at least he actually reads some of the books, and attended counseling. My STBX wouldn't even do that. My STBX doesn't remotely "get it".

Its funny, in a pathetic way. She'll send me emails telling me how lucky I was with her and how much she took care of me and stood by my side. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> For years and years I begged her to be supportive of me and got zip. I don't know what she's talking about. She'd get mad if I even asked her for a glass of water. She gave nothing, and punished me if I had the audacity to ask for something.






Of course he doesn't want it to end. He gives nothing and gets everything. You are left empty. I had to practically beg for anything she ever gave, and then she complained why I couldn't do it myself.

This is at least the 6th time for me, (I should say against me) counting the 3 times she cheated while we dated and were engaged.


Anyway my prediction: Steelers 23 Seahawks 20
MVP Jerome Bettis ... hmmm?

I am one who did give my H another chance, but only when he showed by his actions that he was sincerely motivated to recover our marriage. We are 3 yrs past the last D-day and he is still actively reassuring me of his commitment to me and our marriage. He has real boundaries for himself that he knows he needs to maintain.

I believe it is worth it to give it a go. It will not be easy and you may feel a fool for a while. Many people here may encourage you to toss him to the curb. Many people insist that they would not give 2nd (or 3rd chances). But I say, unless they have been in that situation they do not know how they will react especially if their spouse is acting very remorseful and repentant and willing to do anything to actively save the marriage and their are children involved.

Sometimes it takes a bit more to really get to the heart of the matter and understand why the cheated again and what they really need to do to prevent it in the future.

You need to have total honesty and openness from him. He needs to be completely transparent. We did the MB weekend and the followup homework. It can be painful but their also can be growth through the pain.

Four Rules for a Successful Marriage

I think I’ll ramble a bit.

I’m a FWS so take that in consideration and if you choose to not interact with me that is O.K.

I’ve had 5 years to process the reasons for my infidelity . . . and really, there are many. Some had to do with the state of my marriage, but really, it does come down to the fact that I had poor boundaries and sought diversion from my troubled marriage instead of doing the hard work of trying to repair it. Plus I didn’t know how to fix it even if I had the fortitude to do so.

If I had really been honest and acted with integrity, I would have just left my W and divorced. Heck, she was hardly home and probably wouldn’t have noticed anyway (well she would have noticed that the live-in babysitter/chef/maid/wallet was gone . . . ) A major factor that kept me home was that I had a small child that I couldn’t imagine being separated from. I had a W that had little/no interest in mothering her infant. Post-partum depression mixed with a good dose of a terrible job, trouble with her Mom, maybe some mid-life crisis issues . . . shake vigorously . . . and bitter and angry husband and now you have a glimpse of that period of my life. I knew if I divorced I would probably lose custody of my child, (even thought I was the primary caregiver). I chose the cowards way out of my situations and I had an affair. I meant it to be an exit affair. I knew my wife would never reconcile with me. I just knew that she would kick me to the curb and file for divorce. I was wrong here too.

I can’t tell you if your H will do this again. I can say that I’m pretty sure that I won’t. I don’t like who I was during my A and I’m not about to be that self-destructive again. Plus I already have one angry and p’ed-off woman in my life, why would I want two?

I guess what I’m getting at is an unfulfilling and hollow marriage can help influence one’s decision to stray, but it doesn’t cause it. I strayed because I wanted to. Like I said I should have just divorced and saved us all a lot of pain.

My wife and I have a much better marriage, but it is a fundamentally tragic and wounded one; the taint of infidelity never really goes away no matter how much work you do to evict it. Our marriage will survive and we will raise the kids in an intact home, but the costs that we both must pay for this arrangement are very high and I’m not sure that it is healthy in the long term. When the kids are grown, perhaps one of us will have the courage to give this marriage the “ole yeller” solution.

Thank you all for your great words and wisdom. We talked again this morning and I told him in all honesty that I don't have the strength right now to make a decision either way, so I'm in waiting mode. He is very distraught. He says he loves me and wants to work toward the future. But he also said something that disturbed me greatly.

He knew that I felt if he ever did this again, I would be very inclined to end it. So, I asked him if he did this to get out of this marriage. He said that he wasn't even thinking about me! He just fell into it and before he knew it he was in over his head. How could someone be so callous as to have a 2nd affair and not even think about his wife and family?

Do I really want to spend the rest of my life with a person that is that selfish (or that addicted)? Or is this a deep-seated protection mechanism for himself that he needs to get in touch with and recognize? I love him enough to help him discover the great person I think he can be. But I can't go through life wondering if he'll ever really get there. For 20 years, my whole day every day has been scheduled around making sure everyone else is taken care of. As soon as I take care of myself - my world falls apart.

I don't know why I love him - there's this energy when we touch.

Last time I told myself I'd give it five years. I felt we really re-connected then and he was recommitted and remorseful. This time, I'm giving it one year. We'll see...

2times:

Steve Harley himself has said that affairs don't happen because of unmet needs, but because of the WS' weaknesses.

Paraphrasing something attributed 2 Pepperband: be careful that neither you or your husband are holding out hope for a better past. Meaning (2 me at least), that you are correct and it's useless 2 2nd guess our own past choices, trying 2 attribute blame or cause 2 specific events, when here we are, and here are the things we're facing now. What do we want 2 do now?

I think it's great that your H is willing 2 participate in recovery. A lot of WSs aren't. Mine wasn't, and in many ways still isn't. But she "tries" in her own ways, and I do appreciate that.

One of my favorite books during my struggle 2ward personal recovery was "Passionate Marriage", by David Schnarch. Particularly the introductory and later chapters.

-ol' 2long

Went to our first counseling session last night. We went through three MCs last time, and I never felt we clicked w/ any of them. This is a man, and he immediately saw through a lot of stuff. Basically said that my WS needs some work - that the type of affairs (2) that he's had shows him that he needs to connect within himself. He said he doesn't say that about all affairs - some are quite clearly exit affairs and the marriage should end. We told him we didn't think we wanted this to end and he said that was a great sign. Then he proceeded to ask a lot of questions about his parents and particularly his dad. He seemed very concerned about by WS's need for secrecy and privacy in his life.

Now some might think that's a bunch of psychobabble, but why is it that ordinary people think they can question a PhDs analysis of a science they spend years to study? Would you say the same about an astronomer who studies comets?

Anyway, he wants to see my WS alone for quite a while. He wanted to see me separately, but I told him I'm seeing my own MC and he said that's good. I can't fix my WS - only he can. I just pray I have the strength to see it through. I'm really kind of tired of it all.

He wants sex desperately, but I just can't give that to him right now.

Hi Twotimes!

I saw your post over on Just Found Out and then traced you over here. I've lived your situation (even worse...see my signature) and it CAN definitely be worth it to stick around and see if your H is willing to heal himself.

I'm THRILLED that your MC is willing to challenge your H's issues with his father. That is an excellent sign. You have to get the train back on the track where it got off and your H's "train" derailed somewhere in his childhood/teen years. The question is why and how can he heal those wounds so he can mature emotionally.

Since you are doing this for the second time, you have a lot of control here. You are willing to do IC/MC obviously. That's a great sign of hope for the relationship and for your own emotional health. Please take good care of yourself in every way and work through your grief thoroughly.

I'm really encouraged by your H's willingness to do what it takes to heal this marriage. This affair is SO, SO, SO only about him, his weakness and his lack of integrity. However, the fact that he wants to "fix" himself is huge! He really doesn't want to be this person who steps out of integrity at every chance. Sounds like he doesn't like who he has become!

We have an Enneagram thread going over in the In Recovery section. Please join it or feel free to start another one over there. If you aren't familiar with the Enneagram then here is a link to give you the general:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/practical.asp (scroll down to the practical applications about the Enneagram in relationships...that will give you a general idea of why you might want to pursue this route of study.)

Our situation was so hopeless on D-day and I can't begin to tell you how much the Enneagram was instrumental in turning it around. Now we are three years out from D-day, recovered and very much in love. We didn't even lose the "honeymoon" feeling! We've been married almost 30 years and I wasn't about to throw that investment away and let someone step in and take my place.

You wrote:



Someone who got derailed at a certain age emotionally could easily do it. Why? Because they never grew up enough (although it didn't show in other areas of their life) in a partcular area of emotional development to see through to the consequences of their actions. It seems impossible, but it's so true and it's exactly what your MC is on to right now....which is a very good thing!!



My H had an affair every time I started taking care of myself...every time I started growing in any way. It terrified him to see me change. (I only knew about one affair until our second D-day...believe me, I wouldn't have gone on with him had he revealed them one at a time!)

When I said you had a lot of control in this situation, I said it because your H is so willing to work on himself. You can't really control him, but you can set boundaries for yourself that he must abide by to be with you. The first one I'd set is that he has to stay in IC until these issues are resolved and healed. The second would include a program where he has to learn to trust other men. (Father issues again) My H found a program early in recovery called The Mankind Project. He attended their weekend retreat/initiation and it was life-changing for him. Here's a link to their website:

www.mkp.org

Many men like our husbands never integrated into the world of men. They usually find MKP once they have lost their families. When a man is lucky enough to attend MKP with their family still intact and see other men facing their pain and demons, it is SO powerful!! Without the integration and really growing up, they are doomed to continue repeating their crap over and over again...as you are experiencing. It has to end and this is a powerful way to end it. (It's so powerful, that if I ever had to find another partner, I'd be fishing in the pool of men who had completed this program!)

You spoke of a connection with your H that you can actually feel...THIS is a marriage worth saving!

Stillwed

bump

Twotimes,

Did we lose you? Everything okay?

Stillwed

Stillwed, I'm still here. I just haven't had a chance to chat. I can't tell you how much your response has meant to me. We immediately went to the enneagram site and took the quick quiz. Turns out we are opposites. He's a 4 and I'm a mix between 3 and 6. I didn't have any 4 qualities and he had few 6's. We each did ourselves and each other and came up pretty close. When you look at the histograms, they complete each other - hence my feeling since I first met him that "he completes me".

We have the weekend to ourselves and it's cold and snowy, so we're holed up in the house together. Haven't gone anywhere. We finally got physical and it was wonderful! We've read give and take, After the Affair by Janis Spring, and Affairs by Emily Brown. Those have helped us alot.

My WS is intrigued by the enneagram and we plan on taking the full test. However, I still feel that he wants me to make more sacrifices than he. When we read the personality types and what gets in the way, he said .."See? Haven't I told you that you always complain?It drives me crazy" So I think that instead of understanding why I feel like I have to complain (it's the way I manipulate), he just sees it as a personality flaw that I have to fix. I'm still unsure if this will work in the long run - He desperately wants to move on, but you're right, He's the one who has to address some of these deep-seated issues. I'll see if I can get him to go to the men's site and a retreat.

I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your confidence and insight. This site is helping me tremendously.

thank you stillwed