LA, I said DD but its DS12 and DS9, I typo'd. DD is 15.

Its not my weekend with the boys or my daughter. Both boys had games today and my Ds9's game was at 11 up North of here. My Ds12's game was in town. My WW made arrangements for my Ds12 to get to his game so that we could both go to Ds9's game and make it back in time to see the Ds12's game. I rode up to Ds9's game with her and sat with her at the game. She was in a not so good mood.

I asked her if Ds12 was with her friend (her friends son plays on the same team) and she told me no, her friend has to work. Ds12 is with the OM, that's who she made arrangements with. I was not expecting him to be at my Ds12's game or I would of brought someone with me. When we got to the High School where Ds12's game was and where my vehicle was my WW and Ds9 went inside, I had to put some stuff in my vehicle then i went in.

When i walked into the gym there he was, she was at the top of the bleachers sitting with that beast. ****** what do i do I am there by myself. I was with WW. I really only know one family there and that is her best friend and her best friends husband. Both were there, so she lied to me about her friend having to work. I should of known. I sat with her best friend and hubby and did my best to put on a show. I kept looking up at them, it just makes me sick to see them together. They were not touching, sitting that close, or anything that i could see. I guess it could of been worse. But still.

I just do not know how to deal with some of this stuff without LB. It was so hard for me to sit there knowing that beast was behind me with my family. I wanted to go say or do something so bad but i kept my cool. I probably would of made a fool of myself. I'm glad I didn't, if anything for my boys. I really do not get to much of an opportunity to see her, and it seems anymore when i do get to the beast will be around. And lately, we do not talk to much. I am just not so sure how I can do an effective Plan A when im never around them.

Tuesday is Valentines Day. My Ds12's adoption was final on Valentines day and we always do something on that day just me and him. I have been debating on if I should still get my WW something for Valentines Day. I normally get her some roses, dinner, nice card.. sometimes jewelry or other various items, etc. Sometimes I will make her something (in my profession i am considered as part of my job a graphical artist), a nice card or photos. I would find a song or poem or something that expressed how i felt and just do my magic. I have not done this for a few years and it was something she thought was very special.

Just felt like posting. Been a fun day so far. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

--

Oh, ouch, ouch, MrLU,

So hard to sit there...underdescribed. Amazing you were capable of it. Shows how much you love your son, care for your family.

Did you sell the house? Are you still at your parents' house? I don't know where I'm going with these questions except that there is a way through this, I just know it.

Did you read up on CarenMC's thread about Plan A'ing while seperated?

I'm gonna review here because there is something basic I stepped over, got caught up in your daily pain.

Okay...you got fed up with the way you were being treated:

"I never received any financial support from my wife (I paid for everything and was killing myself earning the money to do it), she would not clean, fix meals, show affection and rarely did we have sex. I got to the point it started making me bitter and angry. She knew how I felt, I told her and she would act as if I never said a word. I would get the ‘that’s not true’ and that’s all I could get out of her. I was the only one who ever tried to hug, cuddle, kiss. I just felt totally used and taken for granted. I was always there, I did not run around, drink, do drugs, abuse. I worked to support my family.

Back in early November 2005 I just could not take anymore and talked with her and told her I needed a break from all of this and needed to move out for awhile. She wanted me to stay till after Christmas and I agreed, for the kids. I was not going to just disappear and leave her and my kids stranded. Things were not improving and I needed some time to get myself back on track. My job had been suffering for a very long time now and if I did not do something we all would be on the streets."

This was your frame of mind before you found out about her A. Inretrospect, how did you solve those resentments that you had piled up?

You have a daughter from a previous marriage? Can you share with us how that marriage ended?

Some facts...your wife does work. She did contribute financially to support the family. She did not treat you as you wanted. You tended to work and cut yourself off from her. When you expressed your unhappiness about her actions, you felt she disregarded your feelings. You say the circumstances made you become bitter and angry. How do you feel about that now? Do you see your part, or do you feel the same, that this was done to you?

"At this point i really do not know if i even want to fix things. I mean i do, but i dont. I want my family back together but there is no way i could go back to the life we had before. It was horrible."

It was horrible for you...how was it horrible for your wife and children?

I fear asking you this now, what might look like compounding your pain, but if all we do here is console, commiserate and encourage, then how does that give you a new marriage? You had identified your needs that she wasn't meeting and if you win her back, how will that change?

What's the missing ingredient here?

You both agreed to live an illusion--you needed a break from the marriage...her A kicked in and up a notch with that information. Kinda tit for tat. You moved out and she moved out...no family home left, abandoned by two people in a lot of pain. Her A woke you up to your own choices; she may see all her choices having been made by you, that you were leaving and she picked this way to survive. She was the bad guy, the one being left, so she quickly replaced you. She see's this as something you're doing to destroy the family and you see her as the one destroying the family.

You're both willing to live in the illusion that you are divorced, by living seperately, though you are married.

I wish you could have done your magic on a poster board, kept it rolled up until you got to the game...not sure if you needed it or not...and unfurled it while you were sitting with your friends. It would say.."See that woman? She's my wife. We're married. That's her boyfriend. I'm pretending for my son's sake not to feel my heart leaking out my chest."

Am I missing the part where you told her how wrong you were to want to move out as a way to solve your problems? That you are excited about learning what relationships are and how you both can be crazy in love with each other again?

Yes, my heart hurts for you. Yes, I did something worse than move out and my H did what your wife did to return my favor. No, I'm not judging. I want this to end up being the best thing that could have happened to you.

That's where I'm coming from.

LA

P.S. How about this thread?

Plan A tips and musings...a must read

Hi LA!

“Did you sell the house? Are you still at your parents' house?”

No the house is not sold yet. It sits empty. I am in an apartment right now. I was considering moving back into the home but decided to sell. It has been nothing but a burden since purchased.

“This was your frame of mind before you found out about her A. Inretrospect, how did you solve those resentments that you had piled up?”

Time, working out things in my mind. Talking with friends, considering everything. Of course a lot of people I talk to tell me ‘oh it was not your fault’, etc. But im smart enough to see through someone trying to make me feel better. I know what I did, I know what she did. It was not so hard getting over being bitter and angry once I realized it was both of us and not just her creating our problems.

“You have a daughter from a previous marriage? Can you share with us how that marriage ended?”

Oh god that’s a story. Short version. I was in my early 20’s and those were my partying days. My DD15’s mom and I barely knew each other when we got pregnant and we married when she was 2 months into the pregnancy. We were in-lust. We both stopped drinking and carrying on and shortly after my DD15 was born I decided to take life a little more seriously and try to find a career/start a business of some sort. My XWW (YES WW) did not want to stop the ‘fun stuff’. I enjoyed going out and having an occasional drink but I just did not want the rest of my life being one big party. The partying got to be an interference in our lives and I became the boring drab of a husband.

December 15th, 1990 me and my XWW went to a work xmas party. There was a lot of drinking and ‘other’ things going on. My XWW wanted to go play some pool and I stayed in the main room to talk with my boss, we had a really good relationship with the boss (me and XWW worked at same place). After a little while I went to the game room to find my wife sitting on one of my co-workers lap with her arm draped over him teasing him. I sat and watched for a moment and then confronted her, decided it was time for us to leave but she refused to go, refused to get off the guy, pretty much told me to f-off. She was drunk. She ended up leaving with my co-worker that night. Next day she came home and moved herself my daughters and her belongings out of our home.

She is an alcoholic. Inside of two years after we separated she had been in and out of rehab many times, has been busted for drinking and driving 4 or 5 times and lost her license. She was able to get her license back a few years back. I worked that same job for a year or two after we split up and that was a nightmare too. I had to work with her ‘man’ and she was going crazy with the drinking, she eventually slept with a few others I had to work with during her madness.

The part of all of this that really messed with me was the dates. December 14th 2005 I was informed of the possibility of my current WW having a boyfriend. December 15th 2005 it was all confirmed and is when she told me that ‘she will not give up her relationship with him for me or anyone else’. This is also the day she informed me she had a place to move to and was going to move out, that we did not ‘work’ together and that she had zero intentions on working on the marriage.

“Some facts...your wife does work. She did contribute financially to support the family. She did not treat you as you wanted. You tended to work and cut yourself off from her. When you expressed your unhappiness about her actions, you felt she disregarded your feelings. You say the circumstances made you become bitter and angry. How do you feel about that now? Do you see your part, or do you feel the same, that this was done to you?”

No, I do not feel the same. I could not see it then. We both played our own part in creating this mess. No, she did not do this to me. We both did it to each other. I beat myself up each and every day because there was so much left unsaid, so much I could of done to prevent any of this. I care for this woman more then anything else in this world yet I did nothing. So no, I do not feel the same as I did the first post here, or even more recent posts.

“It was horrible for you...how was it horrible for your wife and children?”

I really am not sure how it was horrible for them. I can only speculate. My WW would never discuss much with me the last few years, I did not know how she felt about a great many things. She shut me out emotionally several years ago, but, I did the same thing to her. I can only assume it was just as horrible for them as it was for me.

“I fear asking you this now, what might look like compounding your pain, but if all we do here is console, commiserate and encourage, then how does that give you a new marriage? You had identified your needs that she wasn't meeting and if you win her back, how will that change?”

I do not feel that there is anyone here that can say or do anything that can give US a new marriage. If I win her back, I know that my needs may not be met, or not met for a very long time. I just remember what I overlooked for so long and that is at one point in our relationship we were both happy and in-love. While she says we may have had that at one point and time I say we can have it again if we both wanted it bad enough, and I do.

“Am I missing the part where you told her how wrong you were to want to move out as a way to solve your problems? That you are excited about learning what relationships are and how you both can be crazy in love with each other again?”

Yes, I believe we both missed this part. I will have to figure out a way to tell her.

I really do not know how to answer some of your post LA. You make a lot of sense, I just do not know what to say or do.

Some of the things that give me hope are… If I offer my hand, she will take it. If I open my arms to her she will climb into them. If I kiss her she will accept me. But if I tell her how I feel, how important her and the boys are to me, how much I love and need her, I am left feeling rejected and stranded. I feel like I am back to square one.

--

Tonight the madness continues. At my DS12’s ballgame I took a family friend with me for support. My WW was already at the game but was by herself at first. OM walked in a few minutes later with his children and as he walked by us (him not looking at me, probably a good idea) I said ‘there is my wife’s boyfriend’ and we watched him as he walked up the bleachers to go sit with my wife. 10 seconds later she was ringing my cell phone yelling at us for gawking at the OM. Wow, ok.. sorry we were looking.

On our drive back in town WW calls me and demands that I be over at her home at 8pm so we can finish the dissolution paperwork. She then calls me back and tells me she may be home earlier and she expects me there 10 minutes after she gets home. Ok, whatever..

I go over to her home and she has all the paperwork out on the table ready for us to finish and me to sign. My emotions were all over the place. One moment I am so ready to just sign everything and get this over with, the next I am refusing to cooperate. I told her, I do not do divorce, I do not do dissolutions, I want to work on our marriage and im ready to do whatever it takes to make us work.

She told me she does not trust me with her heart, she said that I need to trust her on this, that us getting a divorce is the best thing for us. She said that she feels this is the only way we could ever have a fresh start. It goes on and on. No, im not DJ’ing, this is what she is saying to me. I am not interpreting anything at this moment. A lot more was said, I could not deal with it so I left and came home.

So here I am. We argued because I do not want to participate in the dissolution. As she said to me ‘you are going to make me hate you, do you really want that’.

I still get upset, I have angry outbursts over her relationship with this OM. I try not to, it just happens. Each new day it seems easier to cope, but she continues to push me from time to time to try and get me to respond. I do not let her have her way as much as in the past.

That’s where im at now. Doing whatever I can to breath, trying my hardest to earn a living. But a lot of times I just want to give up even though I know I shouldn’t. Everybody including my WW thinks im nuts. I see things differently though.

--

"so much I could of done to prevent any of this"

Okay, MrLU, now that you see how you do relationships, how to do them better, you need to hold firmly in your mind the truth...you cannot prevent anything. You do your part, shining and true, and others do what they do. That doesn't prevent anything. You don't have that control. So let that part of your self-kicking go, 'k? I believe that this was all necessary--and for the best. Of course, being on the other side, with the pain in my rearview mirror helps me to NOT kick my own rear. Like you, I did some serious self-kicking. I understand.

You'll get there. I have no doubt.

Thank you for answering my questions. See, you help me, also. Let's look at your previous marriage in the same light, though, 'k? Because it is as important for your personal recovery as that of your marriage.

What are some similarities you see between both WW's...leaving out the wayward part. (I know, seems silly, huh?) Emotionally distancing, living from current feelings, lack of belief system in place which enables them to live that way? Both willing to show you their OMs...must mean something; lack of communication, lack of knowing each other intimately--hopes, dreams, expectations, self-image, stuff like that.

I'm guessing, you tell. 'K?

I'm sooooo proud of you for not signing the dissolution papers. What a rough go of it for you. Still, you stood your ground. What you didn't see was a lot of reality you handed to your wife. She kicked back with a bunch of fog babble...you need to know this.

I do know you weren't DJing but repeating what she was saying.

"She told me she does not trust me with her heart, she said that I need to trust her on this, that us getting a divorce is the best thing for us."

Notice that this shows a pattern to your relationships. She has a different belief as to what trust means than you do.

She doesn't trust you to change and stay changed. That is standard WS statement. If she did, she wouldn't be having an affair.

That's her, not you. You need to work on trusting yourself, what trust means to you and understand there's a difference.

She DJ'd you big time with the "Trust me on this, it is the best thing" because that tells you that you are incapable of having your own truth. Your own belief. I figured the DJ street was two way. Chalk this DJ up to babble, also, but note that in order to get out of DJing, you have to be aware where you do it and where OTHERS do it.

"said that she feels this is the only way we could ever have a fresh start. It goes on and on." This is where you listen and repeat back. "What I'm hearing you say is that you do not believe that saving the marriage is the right thing to do. That dissolving our old marriage because you're having an affair will give us a fresh start, is that correct?" No opinions or disagreement. Echo. Echo. Echo.

See how clarity brings strength? Detaching in the conversation, to listen and repeat, eases your own reactive emotions a little bit--you might have the heart racing and shallow breath, but the more you listen and repeat without agreement or argument, the physcial symptoms will lower. They will jump out of your skin if you go in your head into the future or the past because neither can you stop from happening or erase. Stay present and focused on really hearing her. No judgment, just information.

Breathe. Breathe a lot. Again, the perspective is, if your wife was trying to divorce you to get heroin, would you feel as much blame, cause, control or cure? No. It's heroin. This is the same thing. That reduces the emotional reactivity you might feel, and you need to do this for yourself.

"A lot more was said, I could not deal with it so I left and came home." You could not deal because you didn't step back from her presumptions and DJs...you felt them go right through you because of your expectation that she is your wife instead of WW. Dealing is detaching. That doesn't mean you drain out your love; you adjust your expectation.

"So here I am. We argued because I do not want to participate in the dissolution. As she said to me ‘you are going to make me hate you, do you really want that’."

Time to make the distinction between disagreeing and arguing very clear to yourself. "We argued" You might have. You didn't tell me all of your side of the conversation. You could have disagreed, though, instead.

Do you believe that you can make her hate you? Or do you believe this is a manipulative dance you guys have done in your life?

"I still get upset, I have angry outbursts over her relationship with this OM. I try not to, it just happens."

Your anger means either she is crossing your boundaries or she is not living up to your expectations. Important to find out where that anger is coming from. Could be that it is the rejection you're feeling when you expect acceptance from your wife. Just what I meant about adjusting your expectations...do you expect acceptance from an alien?

You choose to have AOs. They don't just happen. Begin the habit of believing and knowing you make a hundreds of choices a day...they are yours. Your power. Your actions are yours...they don't just happen.

Another adjustment (do you feel overhauled yet?)...

"Everybody including my WW thinks im nuts. I see things differently though" Attempt to stop engaging in absolutes...everybody, nobody, always, everything, never, nothing. These are untruths adults don't tell, 'k? Do I believe you're nuts? Do you? Do several MBers not think you're insane, having been in your shoes? No.

These absolutes are destructive to yourself. By making statements containing them, you are adding another belief to your system that is useless to live by, and from them, your emotions will hand you more pain, anger, frustration, etc. that you don't really need right now, do ya?

I know you believe you're doing the right thing. Believe in yourself, like you said, and allow others to believe differently...or the same. You're not basing your decisions on what others think, but on your own choice.

Was your family friend female? I think she was.

"Am I missing the part where you told her how wrong you were to want to move out as a way to solve your problems? That you are excited about learning what relationships are and how you both can be crazy in love with each other again?

Yes, I believe we both missed this part. I will have to figure out a way to tell her."

I see this as a great follow up to last night. Write her a letter saying what you've recognized in yourself, your patterns, your choices, how much you're learning and how great the future marriage can be. Tell her of your pain of her choices, for your children, and show her that this pattern you have goes way back, before her. This will be an affirmation of your statement that you do marriage, not divorce.

Do not expect anything from this letter, but make sure to get it done. Tell her your goal of no LBs, great listening skills, to be a respectful and honoring husband who doesn't run when it gets tough--that you'll just get tougher. The hardest part will be saying of your love for her, after she LB'd you, but I believe you can do it with simple sincerity.

One thing I wish I'd done was to say to my WH...that I am willing to rebuild our marriage, putting it first before our children, but I am unwilling to dissolve our marriage because of our children. Big and important difference for me.

Get this letter to her this week. Maybe tomorrow? I don't know about gifts on Valentine's Day...my love language is gifts, so even as a BS, I gave them. I'm not one to give great advice in that area. Didn't hurt his decision to recover, but it hurt me--had to remember they would be discarded...and they were...while he was WH. If you can take the rejection, do it anyway. If you can't, well, you take the rejection anyway, don't you? How about, I'm just doing my part and let the response go?

"10 seconds later she was ringing my cell phone yelling at us for gawking at the OM. Wow, ok.. sorry we were looking."

Here is where I kick your butt...She rings the cell, it is her, she is in the gym with you guys. Don't answer. Look up and say, "Is there something you want to say to me?" If she has the temerity to say about gawking at OM, then you can reply, "You mean you don't want us to look at your Affair Partner? Then why did you bring him?"

Practice such responses. These are your part that you have to do as well. You are not being a smart alec or rude...you are questing for truth and have to put it out there, over and over again.

"I just do not know what to say or do." Say anything. Give yourself permission to post all of your thoughts and feelings without judging them right or wrong. Give yourself permission to do what it is you choose with your best intent as guidance. Posting helps, like a journal, to document your journey, not for judgment, but release.

"Some of the things that give me hope are… If I offer my hand, she will take it. If I open my arms to her she will climb into them. If I kiss her she will accept me. But if I tell her how I feel, how important her and the boys are to me, how much I love and need her, I am left feeling rejected and stranded. I feel like I am back to square one."

You know this is your behavioral pattern...to communicate through affection. Body language. Assumptions and mindreading goes with this. You can still feel rejection through this physical language...she can pull away, push away...turn away. I don't buy that your verbal communication is stopped because of your fear of rejection.

Tell me what there is to reject is in "I feel scared of what our children are going through right now, of my part, of what I example. I feel rejected and stranded. I am both excited about what I'm learning and hopeless, as if I'm too late. I feel inadequate, full of mistakes and have a great desire to make amends."

By just stating...and not phrasing it with "you made me feels", no one can reject what you feel. You just feel it. Yours. If someone says, "You don't feel that way!" is that reject or disbelief? Definitely disrespectful. Learn to see what rejection really is...because there is real rejection, and then just you feeling rejection, and usually, parts of both. Culling out your truth from the truth will help reduce that feeling and allow for you to see that making I statements just are...there's nothing to reject.

"But a lot of times I just want to give up even though I know I shouldn’t." Forget the shoulds. This is a belief you're telling yourself..."Giving up when something isn't going my way is not unreasonable. Protecting myself by removing myself from a bad situation is not unreasonable. Sometimes, running is the only way out of pain."

Old beliefs that will come back to harm you. If instead, "I believe that saving my marriage will involve a lot of pain, anger, feeling depressed and sad. I know that staying present and aware of my thoughts and feelings is the way I want to live. Running away only gets me into the next relationship that will recreate this current marriage, unless I learn all that I can about myself and my patterns. I love and respect myself, my wife and children. We're all humans and I'm beginning to understand my own humanity."

Make up your own belief statements to tell yourself. Ones that involve, "This is too hard. I'm too weak. I shouldn't be treated this way" will of course bogart your dreams. You control what you believe. Measure it up between what the adult MrLU believes and what the little kid inside him believes. Love that little kid, but don't make decisions from his beliefs, 'k?

LA

LA,

Every time I read a response from you I realize that I have so much to learn. Is that a good thing?

I only have a few minutes but wanted to leave one comment on something you said.


and


I was disagreeing, I was not arguing. I did not agree on the disolution. She fired back with threats of hating me and doing certain things with the OM to force me into the disolution. She was trying to say and do anything to manipulate me into giving into what she says she wants. I did not back down or give in. I made it clear that I do not do divorce.

Not a word on disolution or divorce has been spoken since I left that night.

Today is mine and my DS12's 5th year anniversary, his adobtion was final on this date 5 years ago. So tonight is our time together. And tomorrow, is my time with both of my boys. I may not have much time to respond but I intend to time permitting.

Thanks

--

Have a great anniversary day with your son...when you get the time this weekend, let me know how his adoption came about and how your wife felt about it, 'k?

What I got from your post was that you really wanted me to know that you were disagreeing with her and she was arguing with you, is that correct?

Realize there might be no action on dissolution for weeks. Put it out of your mind for now. Enjoy your days with the boys and keep reading and posting when you can. You'll get through this.

LA

Working at home does have some perks. I have a little bit of time here and there and geez.. I just wanna yap.

Yeah, for some reason i wanted to confirm i was disagreeing and not arguing as I said we were. That I see her actions/responses that night as a way to try and manipulate me into doing something I did not agree with. Thats all.

DS12's father has only seen him a few times, and has not been in the picture since DS12 was an infant. DS12 was 1 1/2 when me and wife started our relationship.

I was a big part of DS12's life from then on and eventually became daddy. I was supporting him, his mother, took a big part in raising him, everything a father/parent is supposed to do.

Wife brought up adoption some 5 1/2 to 6 years ago and when i said i would love to i think that made her the happiest person in the world. I thought about it before then but I did not know that she trusted me enough to even consider it.

I hope that explains enough. Back to work..

--

Lately I do not have much problems getting to sleep, but I still have a problem staying asleep. Normally I wake several times a night, today was 5am but I couldn’t go back to sleep. So thought I would write a few lines.

Me and DS12 had a good time. We did dinner and he wanted to go bowling or to the movies. We decided that since both him and his brother will be with me this weekend we would all go to the movies together and me and DS12 would go bowling now.

On the way taking him to his mothers he asked me how my Valentines Day went. I told him “It was OK, I worked most of the day. Some of the day was lonely and others a pain in my butt. Butt, we did something together and that made the rest of the day great.”

WW calls me at 10.30pm and puts DS12 on the phone. He is crying. He is very upset. I asked him what was wrong and he is all broken up because he does not want dad to be lonely. I talked with him a bit and got him calmed down enough to go back to bed.

WW got on the phone and I told her exactly what I said to him earlier. I was being honest with him, I feel bad because he was hurting over something I said, but I don’t want to lie to them when they ask me something either.

WW wants me to call and try to schedule DS12 with a consoler. She told me that DS12 has been doing so good since OM talked with him and now she thinks he still needs help. I wanted to reach through the phone and wring her neck. End your affair and lets rebuild our marriage and bring our family back together! No I did not say that but I was thinking it.

Mr.Locked-

Awwwwww your poor son <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I want to wring her neck for you.

By the way.......my husband did the same "I don't want to hate you" song and dance too......"I don't want to hate each other, you're going to make me hate you...." Yeah, whatever....it's pure manipulation. Apparently that's the worst punishment they think they can deal out....they'll hate us, they love us right now.....and look how they act...can you imagine what hate would look like....It actually makes me laugh, it's all FOGESE!!!! Don't listen to it.

I'm so proud of you for your control when you are face to face with the OM. I think you are doing very well, I have to say that you are doing FAR BETTER than I would be doing. My husband never put OW and I in an enclosed area together.....he knew better, I would have taken her apart. And while that wouldn't have been the correct thing to do, and would have damaged things further, he knew that's exactly what I'd do.

She was/is scared to death of me.......as well she should be. Some days I think I've forgiven her, other days I want to spray paint w*ore across her car (I don't do it...but I think about it...I think it should be green..LOL).

I don't know where my H and I are going to end up....I'm actually tired of trying to predict the future. So I decided, instead that you can be my project...LOL (You know you want to be my guinea pig). Well, actually I think that for the moment instead of posting my every feeling (they change by the minute) about my marriage and my life, I would be better to just continue to leave it to God, and try to help other people.

I think that you and you WW have a good chance here.....she's all over the board, she's very indecisive. The whole "Be at my house in 10 minutes to sign these papers" thing was just anger.....I'm glad you didn't sign them, and said that you don't do divorce. She would have probably sat on them even if you did sign them.

It's to your advantage that she doesn't have the financial resources to file for divorce on you. You need to Plan A like CRAZY now, because I see Plan B on the horizon (as you will only be able to take so much of the abuse).

I know it's hard to Plan A when she is so blatantly disrespecting you.....I believe that is especially hard because you are a man (Not that it's easy for women).

You said that graphic art was part of your job....can you do something with family photos?? Maybe of things you've done together in happier times?? You need to keep reminding her that she has a family, and that you are part of it.

What about her car?? Can you go and pick her car up and do a tune up on it? Stuff like that.....stuff she can't do, and that show that you care. Play to your strong points.

I think that you DEFINITELY need to get your son(s) into counseling....not just DS12...although his need seems to be more urgent, they BOTH need counseling. (Don't get your hopes up that the counselor will tell your WW that it's HER that is doing this to your son....although it's the truth, they are generally geared at helping someone *accept* their current circumstances, and not blame themselves). Maybe family counseling?? That you could ALL go to? That would be great if you could afford it.

Also, make sure that the schools know what's going on. They are much more tolerant of the *stomach aches* and acting out if they know what's going on.

My DD11 did that at first too, her stomach hurt all the time, she missed loads of school. And my husband didn't think that it had anything to do with our situation.....he said "Caren, people get divorced all the time, she'll be fine." They can't accept the responsibility of screwing up their kid.

Actually as recently as a few months ago when DD11's grades were so bad, he said "And don't say it's because of our situation". (I never said it was.....guilty much?).

You're doing well Mr.Locked.....just make an all out effort at Plan A.....it actually gets sorta fun, they are very confused by it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I know I'm just mean...lol)

God Bless,

-Caren

Hi Caren,

Control around OM. OMG it is so very hard. I guess the places I am forced to be around him in are kind of safe, full of kids and parents. I have not been face to face with him up close, but in the same room/gym and that's as close as it gets. I know it would be a bad idea to do anything, but i got to tell ya, i sure do think about it. He steers clear of me, which is a good thing.

I do not mind being your project/guinea pig. Not one bit. I could use all the hand holding i could get right now.

No, I wont sign the papers. I will not help her fill them out either. Forget about it. Yeah, i think she would of sat on them even if i signed em too. She is now, which is OK by me. I am sure the subject wont even be brought up again until i really p!ss her off again.

Yes, photo work is my specialty. Nearly 10 years worth of work on 1000's and 1000's of images for web, print, magazine, posters, books, etc. Check your yahoo email, i sent you a few links to something I made the other day.

I have not had to much opportunity for several days but today was different. I was able to plan-a my [censored] off. I got to experience a bit of fog-speak and dj'ing (her not me, thanks LA), which I believe i handled very nicely. I probably spent more time talking / with her today then I should have, but i saw opportunity and took advantage of it. And yes, I think she is confused by it. I know when she was DJ'ing or picking at me after I responded she had no idea what to say. I gave here absolutely nothing to be angry at or argue. I did enjoy that, confused the he!! out of her.

A few things that we discussed today that sticks out in my mind... We were talking about my Ds12's problems and consoling. She thinks PART of his problems are what is happening between us (you don't say). I told her I know of one thing we could both do that would help both of our boys. She said "What, get back together?" in a somewhat smart-a way. I said "Well yes, we could work on rebuilding our marriage and bringing us all back together again". She says "What, so Ds12 can see me miserable and sad all the time". Ok....

Now. That would seem to imply that she is NOW happy and NOT miserable correct? What a load. A good majority of the times I see her she looks depressed, sad, unhappy. When I talk to her a lot of times she sounds down in the dumps. Yeah, there are times she seems happy and content. But even her own son says that she is never happy, she is always sad. He said this a few weeks ago when we were discussing his problems (he never seems happy, he told his mother neither does she).

Anyway.. That just stuck out of my mind.

The AD's seem to be kicking in, a lot of things seem to be easier to deal with the last few days.

--

Maybe I plann-a'd a bit to much yesterday?? Today you would of sworn I killed off her entire family.. geez..

Mr LU-

I can relate to what you're feeling when you're with OM. I had some time to consider what that would be like when my wife was getting ready to fly off and live with her OM. She spoke with the kids about how the two of them would be there for all of the upcoming events (oldest kids graduation, son's ROTC graduation, etc...). I sat and thought about how that would be for me...and wrote her a letter that night letting her know that there was no way that her vision of the future was going to happen. If I was put in the same room with OM, it would have ended up with police involvement...there was no two ways about it. I told her that our kids would have to choose which events they would want me at, and which events they would like to have Mom and OM at. I told her I knew it wouldn't be fair to them...but that it would be the only way that they could have a dad who wasn't in jail/prison.

It was actually that letter that made her realize that she wasn't creating some kind of special, 3-way family for her kids...that what she was really doing was destroying our family...PERIOD.

Hang in there friend...and maybe you might consider explaining to your WW that what she's doing is rubbing the whole thing in your face...she's deliberately hurting you by what she's doing, and she's doing it in a way that makes you have to choose what's right for you and what's right for your kids.

DS12 is over tonight while WW runs DS9 to his practice, normal Thursday thing except we are at home now.

DS12 asked me if me and mom are getting along any better, I told him yes we are...but alot of the time it depends if she wants to get along or not.

We kept talking and I asked him why he asked if we were getting along any better. She told him thats why me and her are getting a divorce, because we dont get along.

Ok. I never officially sat him down and tried fully discussing everything going on. We had several mini talks but for the most part I havent said much to him about it.

I do not remember if i already asked, and dont have time to go over the thread again. But should I tell DS12 the truth, as in yes its true we did not get along but the reason she wants a divorce is because she is having an affair... or should i just leave things as they are?

I wanted to further explain my post about "Maybe I plann-a'd a bit to much yesterday??".

Wednesday as I said I had lots of plan-a opportunity, handled some dj'ing and I am pretty confident I did not LB. It was actually really easy to plan-a that day.

Thursday. WW was in mood. Spoke only in email till that evening. Asked her what is wrong, she is having money problems and feels overwhelmed with the kids. She wont ask for help with the kids and says she is not used to me being willing to help (which is hogwash, i did... a lot more then she will admit to now). Long story short I told her that if i can do anything more to help with the kids or anything else do not be afraid to ask, or i will start asking her if she needs anything myself.

Fast forward an hour or so. I had gotten into a heated argument with my business partner, more like business jerk. I am trying to break ties with this guy and am starting a new business with a brighter future (more money, less work, no more jerk). My partner has a major problem, he's an a-hole, big time. He cant talk, he yells, name calls, puts you and everybody in your family down... then will turn around and act like none of his abuse took place. Yesterday I witness probably the worst i have seen from him in 9 years, all on me. Screwed me up for the day.

Anyway, I had mentioned to WW in email what had happened and that i needed her. Whenever i have a problem with the jerk it helps to talk to her (is a good listener). I wanted to talk to her sometime that day. I really did not have any expectations from her. She writes back

"What do you need me for?  I'm not good for anything."

Wow. I just wanted to talk when she had a moment. Wrote her back told her yes, she is.. and i need her for a lot of things. Never heard back from her. I could not resist temptation. I knew she was upset that morning about money and the kids but her mood improved, now it seems like something else went astray in her mind so asked her what was on her mind, something else wrong? .She says

"Why does it even matter?"

Wow.. I asked, because I care.. Between then and when she dropped of Dd12 we spoke a few times on the phone and when she picked Dd12 up. I guess I just don't get it, the attitude..its BAD over what? Seems all directed at me. Actually getting used to it (sad eh). Guess im just confused why the 180 in attitude when there was no reason for it.. guilt?

Today (Friday) we scheduled Ds12 an appointment with a consoler. I talked with the consoler and filled her in with some of of the problems he is having. Consoler is also aware that WW is involved in an affair and has had Ds12 involved with OM since before d-day.

LA. I have both boys tonight through Monday, going to be busy but i should have a lot of time later in evenings to go over your post some more and see what else i can say.

--

MrLU,

You've got your priorites straight. Boys first. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I want to point out that what your wife was saying didn't sound about you but about her. Some really good actively listening would go a long way.

"I hear you saying you don't believe I need you. That you don't believe you're good for anything, is that correct?"

This opens up with no "why's" to be dug out. Same with answering a why...it is not really a question. "I don't understand. Are you asking why your opinion matters to me?"

Open ended (you can probably do a lot better than I can).

And it does sound very rough with your partner. My boss was like that, though not as extreme, for the first two years I worked with her. Would just pounce attack and then act like nothing happened. Found out she had hypoglocemia and for the last three years, she got it under control much better. Not to mention a hysterectomy a year after me.

You're an amends person, seems to me. So am I. This kind of behavior comes with the initial slaps and the non-acknowledgement/apology as a second one. I think God's showing you something here, but you'll have to decide that for yourself.

Did you ask the counselor your question about telling your DS12 about the affair? I haven't said my opinion because my DS13 at the time was taken on a date with dear ol' Dad and asked me what was up with him, and was she his girlfriend? So we talked it out. From my experience, you either leave the poor child in limbo land or tell him the truth. They know. I was six when I knew my Dad cheated on my Mom, and heck, I didn't even know what cheating was at that age.

So, my vote is to take some alone time together and ask him what he's thinking and feeling about the seperation, his Mom's boyfriend (he knows) and do it that way, rather than tell him anything.

Since the counselor knows, probably would be best coming from his father's mouth. Ask about the DS9, though. Brothers talk.

Hang in there, MrLU...you can do this.

LA

Hi LA!

No when i spoke to the consoler I did not ask if I should discuss the affair with him or not. I was so busy that was the one thing I forgot to ask.

Yeah, I know he knows and what he see's...but he is being told differently.

WW tried to talk to DS12, find out whats wrong. Told me he will not tell her, keeps saying 'you will get mad at me'. All I ever get is 'nothing is wrong'. We have the next 3 1/2 days together maybe we can get some one to one time and figure some stuff out.

WW told me today that her and DS12 got into it last night, she wanted to fill me in on what happened. They were discussing his negative outlook on everything. She told him 'if you can not fix this problem you are moving over to your fathers, i wont tolerate that in my home'.

This is not first time she said something like that to him. There have been other times he pissed her off and she would tell him she was going to find his real dad and ship him off. This was not a one time thing.

We used to get into arguments because of that kind of stuff. I think back and recall that kind of crap and sometimes question why i really want to work on this marriage.

My partner, kissing my butt all day long. He does not know it but my my out may be just a few weeks away. Ohh the stress i can feel it leaving my body just thinking about it.

thanks

--

Mr.Locked-

Hey there....sorry I haven't been on if a few days....been busy, busy, busy.

Regarding telling DS12 (as well as DS9) about the affair.

Okay, here's what's up with that. Children are VERY smart, he knows this is wrong, he knows this hurts, he just needs to know your take on it.

I would tell him the truth. That married people are not supposed to have boyfriends or girlfriends, that his Mom is confused right now, but that you do love her, and that you will never stop loving him. Tell him that none of this is his fault. Let him ask questions. Let him tell you how he feels about all of this.....and tell him he should NEVER be afraid to talk to you about this, that you will always be there to listen to him and that his feelings are very important to you because you want him to be happy.

Your wife telling him that she will not have that sort of *negativity* at her house, is just her trying to not feel guilty. She KNOWS why he's acting this way.....she's trying to find another reason for it....but she know's the real reason. (That's the whole fog thing) It sucks, because she is hurting your son in the process. By telling him that Mom is confused right now, but that you BOTH love him very much, should help some.

Be careful not to say anything to him that your WW can construe as *turning him against her* (although they usually dig something up and say you are doing that anyway)...but at least you'll know that you actually didn't.

It's really hard....I know.

I'm actually concerned about your DS9.....even if he isn't exhibiting the same symptoms as your DS12....I'm sure he's still struggling with all of this. Some kids (like my DD11)will bottle it all up and not talk about it at all....and that's not good either.

Okay....now as far as your WW's reaction to your Plan A the next day......that's guilt....those things she said weren't directed at you....they were directed at her. She's wondering "How can he be so nice to me when I'm doing this to him?" "Why am I doing this to my family....". Which, is what Plan A is about....so you're doing GREAT!!!

I told you it was going to be fun..... "Love your enemies......it gets them really confused!!!" (Saw that on a bumper sticker once <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

So her reaction means......keep up the good work. You are making small cracks in the affair bubble.....it won't be able to hold the weight of the real world for long if you continue to do so.

Keep up the good work Mr.Locked, I hope you and your boys have fun this weekend <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good Luck and God Bless,

-Caren

MrLU,

You previously agreed that your DS12 had negativity problems. Did you get "Between Parent and Child" that I thought I suggested? Wish I had read that book! Oh, my.

Very important point about him not telling her how he feels and the why behind his actions because he doesn't want her mad at him. What he may be saying is, "I can't tell you or you won't love me." Anger may represent the other end of love to him.

Very common for males. Do not anger comes even before "First, do no harm" in some minds. Anger is rejection, telling the child he is defective, wrong and unworthy. Only way is to explain that anger is even a part of love...something healthy. Demonstrating your anger is when it gets miscontrued.

You might use your partner as a way of explaining why you're angry at your partner, for crossing your boundaries and do it in a really calm manner. Saying anger is the way out of it...showing it just creates more. Important distinction.

I have a mixed family, also. There is some other things at play with having a natural son, an adopted one and on the fringe, a daughter from another marriage. I have three sons, three different fathers. My youngest only recently stated how angry he was that we didn't tell him that his brothers were half brothers. Just because it isn't stated, doesn't mean it is not a factor.

He also might fear you rejecting his mother based on her behavior means that you will reject him, too. My older two sons have been dealing with their feelings of rejection all their lives...for fathers they have never seen, who rejected them first.

Not something fix in your son, but to acknowledge, be safe enough he can explore his feelings and make his own beliefs about what love is and what it means to be abandoned.

He may feel that he fails you at every turn because you both have made his actions a problem. Something not acceptable to get him to stop. He may feel he is unacceptable, not his actions.

When you get, "Nothing is wrong," say, "I wasn't asking for what is wrong. I was wanting to connect with you. Your thoughts and feelings aren't wrong--they are you, and I love you just the way you are."

That might open up some stuff...if not at that moment, then within a few days. Stick to that line. Be consistent. You might be surprised.

His counseling is a great opportunity, both for him and you. Encourage the counselor to consider having monthly sessions with you, your wife and son together. I'll pray for it to be a sideways course into MC, or IC for your own healing.

Very difficult to be open to what your children think and feel. Was for me. Felt like I was hearing all that I did wrong, wasn't a good mother, etc. Plan A helped me to overcome those reactions. I'm hearing their perception, their truth, not THE truth. Try to keep your reactions out of it. Just like in Plan A. Information.

LA

Just checking in MrLocked......what's shakin?????

God Bless,

-Caren