Been a very long weekend. Had the boys since Friday, dropped them off at WW’s tonight around 6pm. DS12 had basketball tournaments this weekend so we had to run to several games. We did the movies, the wal-mart thing a few times. Saturday evening I had my 5 and 6yr old nephews over to spend the night with me and the boys (these are my WW’s sisters kids). Today I had to work so did not get to much time with them (they were off of school, easier for me to have them on days off since I work from home). Busy, but we got some good old quality time together and the boys enjoyed their time here. Good.

I never did get a chance to talk with my DS12. We were either busy, exhausted or had company. Next Tuesday is when his first consoler session is. My only opportunity to actually talk with him before his session may be Wednesday. We have nothing planned that night except sitting around here so this may just be the perfect time to do so. Talk.

I did not see much or hear much from WW this weekend, this is becoming the norm. She showed up at all the games… and without the beast (thank god). I was glad for that. To me though, it seems that the longer this goes on the more distant she is then before. Hardly any conversation, response.

This morning she emails me asking me how the weekend was, how the boys behaved.. and asked how I was. I told her “The weekend was busy and sometimes stressful, but was enjoyable. The boys were good. I’m ok too, a lot on my mind but doing good”. I knew the second that I hit send what was coming next.

She asks “What is on your mind.” (I do not have the email here on my laptop but I believe she asked if I wanted to talk about it). I tell her, work, money and you. Ok. What am I doing. I get back “Why are you thinking about me?”. I guess I just have a hard time understanding a lot of things. She really has to ask why. I remember LA talking about active listening and open ended discussion so armed with that sent off a response.

“When I hear you asking "Why am I on your mind?" are you saying that you believe there is nothing at all about you, about us, worth having on my mind, is that correct?”

To which she says “I don't know. I guess I don't see anything about me worth thinking about.” So I respond back with something a bit longer but still open ended.

“I guess what I meant was why are you thinking about me? What are you thinking about me?”

It took her several tries before getting to the real questions she had. From here I had no clue how to handle the rest of this. I knew eventually I was going to have to get into why’s. I ended it with something to the effect of “I think about you for alot of reasons, and I think of a lot of different things about you“ to which ended this conversation. My instincts tell me I should of spilled my guts but I did not. I do not know, maybe I handled this can of worms I opened up wrong.

This whole ‘why do you think of me’ and ‘im not worth thinking about’ thing is just confusing to me. Is this guilt again. Her thinking that she done something so bad that I wouldn’t want a thing to do with her? Or is she just mental. I don’t know. I know im only a few clicks from going mental myself.

A little later she called me from work. Had a legit reason for the call but spent the remainder of 30-45 minutes just sitting there, not saying hardly a thing, had work to do, but did not want to get off the phone. Is she waiting for me to say something? I don’t know I don’t get it.

She does seem to be coming up with the most petty things to be angry at me about. She asked me to wash DS12’s uniform when I did laundry Saturday. When she found out I did not wash their Friday cloths I heard about it, over and over and over. If I was supposed to and I did not I am sorry, Saturday was a very busy day for me and the boys. I told her a few days ago that if there was anything else I can do to help with the boys to let me know. So now, I let her down, and when she asks me to help her with something, I do not do it. It seemed that anytime the conversation did not go her way she made sure to bring up how I let her down. This whole thing just seems nuts.

And tonight, the phone, another long phone call with hardly any words. It was all I could do to keep from screaming. I talked, tried. What she wanted to talk about was very hard for me to listen to. She wants to tell me about what ‘we’ did over the weekend. About ‘us’ starting on a roast Saturday evening and ‘we’ having it for dinner Sunday. About the games ‘we’ went to. ‘we’ this ‘we’ that. ‘Us’ and ‘we’ meaning her and OM. Why and how can she talk to me about them, is she rubbing it in.. does she really think that none of this is tearing me to peaces. So damn confused.

Anyway, weekend was good. Monday sucked.

--

Long time lurker here. Seems that somehow she got the idea that even though it hurts you (and makes her feel guilty) she wants to tell you about her on the OM so that you become more accustomed to it. All part of the "fantasy" where she can retain a friendship with you after all this.

Not really experienced in this stuff, but it sounds like that if she does this again, you should change the topic (so can attempt to continue Plan A) and if that doesn't work then honestly tell her that you can't talk to her if she is going to talk about her and the OM. It just hurts you too much. Seems like a good way to protect yourself and make sure her guilt "stays on the table".

Perhaps the change of topic can be you telling her of things that you and the kids did w/o her. She will not be able to compete with that (because of the time spent with OM) and she can see a) how breaking family apart keeps her out of things and b) that you can survive and be happy with your kids.

Anyway hope this helps.

Well, I just LB'd big time.

Today is parent teacher confrence day for DS9. She was going to get him from her friends and meet me at the school. But she may not be able to pick him up now, asked if i could. I said I was not sure i could leave that early. Because I work at home im expected to be able to leave whenever I want. It does not work that way, work is work.

I did not say NO just that I am not sure i can leave that early. Depends on work, just like her, I have a job.

She gets angry and says "Well I guess I will have to get the OM to pick him up since you wont". Wow.. That was all it took. No yelling, no screaming. But I told her I am really growing tired of this OM in my childrens lives, im tired of them being exposed to this affair and im tired of how her decisions are effecting everyone around her. And, that I have been looking over my options to pull my children out of that situation. Meaning, going for some sort of full custody.

Really.. Yeah, i choose to let that crap out but damn..

She fired back "Fine if you want to get back together then there is going to have to be some serious changes.".. you betcha there would be. "I do not want my kids around your daughter, I dont want...".. on goes the crazy demands..

Next goes into the "Fine, if you want him out of their life and mine then I dont want to talk or see either one of you".. ok, fine, thats what im used to now. No harm to me. But do i believe it for a minute.. Nope.

Anyway.. guess i screwed up.. or did i?

--

Well, today has turned into an f'ing mess. She has been on me all day because of what I said. Pile on top of that I have a buyer for the house and now she is refusing to sign off on it unless i agree to sign the paperwork for disoltution. What a big f'ing mess i am making of this today.

Been dealing with the finance company, my partner, and her all day. Im ready for a good drunk.

Now, she calls me... "You can have your boys after friday, since im such a bad parent they are yours".. Ok, she is giving up the children now.

WTF do i do now..

She is giving up the children? Don't let her guilt you into believing that. Tell her to put it writing and you'll take them.

Grrrrr.

MrLU,

I'm still reading (can't help but see the post immediately above me...can I be pollyanna today, just a tad?

"and without the beast (thank god)." This is something different. Am I wrong? She didn't bring the beast. I have to say, "Yay" to that. Just me?

"it seems that the longer this goes on the more distant she is then before. Hardly any conversation, response." Does this mean you have an expectation that Plan A will open lines of communication with you and WW while she's in the A?

"My instincts tell me I should of spilled my guts but I did not. I do not know, maybe I handled this can of worms I opened up wrong." I don't believe you opened the can nor put the worms in it, MrLU...this is why I believe in the fog. How can she ask that question? She is your wife and can't understand why she's worth thinking about? If I hadn't been there, I wouldn't be able to tell you that this was a legitimate question in her head.

Standard reply, "I think a lot about you, my wife, your affair, how much I love you and want to save our marriage."

You're not going nuts or mental. "So now, I let her down, " You didn't do what you said you were going to do. That's it. If she feels let down, she feels that. If you feel you let yourself down, then you do that. She will attempt to blame and provoke you. She has to--you're in Plan A and you're sterling, full of effort and love. Any snag she can come up with helps ease her. Well, that could be part of it--but was this the way it was pre-A, too? I was like that long before my A. I had to attack DH because I wasn't perfect. Go figger.

"She wants to tell me about what ‘we’ did over the weekend." I'm not for this part. If you believe Plan A has no room for disagreeing, then I am not helping you with that belief. "Honey? I hear that you believe I should know about your activities with your affair partner this weekend, but I feel stabbed and torn up when you share with me about your infidelity. You are my wife and I believe you are playing house with a man and his children who know you are married to me and have children of your own. That's what hurts my heart terribly. I have always thought better of you than that. I'm adjusting my perception, but do not want to participate in the fantasy that you are not my wife. You are, I love you, and I want to save our marriage."

I'm blathering. I don't see how saying your truth is not Plan A. As long as it is not telling her what her truth is--just how you see and feel it. Somebody help me out here...why wouldn't this meet Plan A...Openness and Honesty without LB's; calm, earnest, loving, gentle and truthful?

That would garner respect from WS. The message doesn't change no matter what. Consistentcy to me breeds trust. Faith. Am I alone here?

I would end up primo doormat if I believed differently. I'm not making withdrawals from his lovebank by saying my truth. It's mine. I own it. Part of the big change WH saw in me.

Do you think you would have LB'd Monday had you spoken your truth Sunday? Just guessing, but would like to know how you see it. "I do not want your affair partner around my children. I hear you saying that you will have AP pick him up if you (WW) won't and if I'm unable."

"Fine if you want to get back together" just freeze it there and have hope. Forget the demands...she said this. She wants to have power in your marriage...her power, be considered, respected, heard and an equal partner. Leave it at that for right now.

Did you mess up? Only you can decide. See the truth I was telling above versus what you said. "I want to protect our children from your affair partner. He is knowingly seeing a married woman around our children and acting as if he is there to help instead of destroying our family."

Tell your truth here if you want to...own how you believe you LB'd.

Seems you are hurt, angry, disrespected, not seeing whatever results you expected right now. All I got for ya is to have a goal, not an expectation. They are like tiny bugs that are in us, wreaking havoc...but we made them. Let go the right now ones, if you can. If you can't, I really do understand.

I'm attempting to pull for ya, not fix you, k? Back me off when you need to, if you would, please.

LA

P.S. About dualing signatures (tit for tat)...this would be your strongest statement. "I hear that you won't sign off on the house that we agreed to sell because I do not believe in dissolving our marriage? I would rather be in our home, with you and our family, without two residences any day."

I enjoyed CW's suggestion about putting her statement in writing about the kids. Wanted to highlight that her, "Since I'm a bad parent" part of her statement was ripe, RIPE for Plan A.

"I hear you believe you're a bad parent. WW, I do not believe you have been, are or will ever be a bad parent. You are a great mother and I know you love our kids as much as they love you. It is your choice to be in an affair and involve your affair partner as a substitute parent that damages our relationship and children. Not your parenting."

You're in a major battle and I feel like I'm throwing bandaids for your artery.

LA

MrLocked!!!!!!

You did beautifully!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is starting to crack!!!!!

She is realizing that she screwed up MAJOR. Keep up Plan A!

It was not a LB to tell her that you don't want the OM around your children. That is PART of Plan A!! Very good job.

Don't sign the dissolution paperwork, even if it means not selling the house right now......your marriage is more important.

Oh my gosh, you are doing so well. She's reacting exactly as you would want her to.

I know she still sounds angry and full of venom....but that's because she is still a WW and has to blame someone....that someone is YOU.

All the *us* and *we* crap was trying to get your goat, and see if you would react.......by not responding to that, she started thinking...."Oh my gosh, he isn't jealous....now what? What if he doesn't care anymore......what if he can live without me...."

So she's starting to panic, let her.

I think she'll go back on her offer to let you have the boys after Friday.......but if she maintains that is what she wants, then you should jump on that QUICK. Yes, get something in writing.....but by all means take those children. That will do several things to your benefit. You can make sure the children are being taken care of, you can assure that they will have minimal if any contact with OM, it will strengthen your custody case if it should get to divorce, AND......if she's living by herself, without the kids there, she thinks that she'll be able to spend all her free time with OM......but she will miss her children and her family.....AND since OM appears to have custody of his children, he is going to think "What kind of nut job did I get involved with, she just chucked her kids".

Oh, MrLocked, this really couldn't be going any better at this stage. Don't be surprised if she gets suicidal in the near future.....that happens a lot.

God Bless,

-Caren

LA,

Really no I do not expect a thing from Plan A. If anything I am seeing plan A as making her angry, confused.. etc.. That was just something i noticed. Dunno.

And no, I do not feel I let her down at all. Pre-A was just like this to, but not as bad. Gets discouraging though.

Caren,

Im glad you see something in all of this. I swear i feel like i screwed up. I get so tired of her holding OM and my kids over me and doing and saying whatever she can to manipulate me. So yeah, she's crossing my boundaries...

I went to my Ds9's Parent Teacher thing, it was not so hot. Ds9 is failing and his progress report is going downhill fast. Can you guess when this all started? Ds12, well, im taking him to consoling. Nuf said.

After the Parent Teacher thing she started in on me again. Her kids are doing so much more better now since getting away from me. Wow, ok, one is now failing school the other needs to see a consoler to figure things out. Sure seems like they are doing so much better now.

Yes, right now at this moment I am kinda angry. She is, and has been for a very long time very persistent at driving someone nuts until they cave. I did not cave to her today not one moment, and she drove me nuts from about noon till i don't know, 6.30. I still think i handled her pretty good, a lot better then I would of several months back. Im waiting for the evening shift to kick in.

Back in a bit..

--

Caren,

I read your comment on predicting her being suicidal and I was thinking, yeah right... Not her, no way. She seems so confident in her decisions and what is right and what is wrong. There is no way anyone would give me, the childrens father, custody of his kids.

I went to dinner with my father and the guys, came home and tried to watch idol with my mother. She rang my cell phone, i ignored her first call (she hates my mom), her message was for me to please call her back. Sweet as could be. Second call, i answered.. found out where i was and she hung up on me.

Went home, she called me at home was upset because i didnt call her back.. ****** didnt know i was supposed to, she hung up on me.

Next 30-40 minutes was crying and begging and pleading with me to not take her children from her. I dont want to take her children from her. I dont want to do anything to get 'revenge' or hurt her. I want my family, and I do not want my children involved with her affair any longer.

So Caren, yes.. she is already talking suicidal. There was talk of taking some pills. If she cant have her children she does not want to live.

I felt horrible hearing her cry, how she hurt, hearing her talk as she was. I told her I was just to tired to talk about this any more today. She said she couldnt sleep, she needs resolve now. I apologized, told her we can talk about it tomorrow night if she wants. She dj'd for a minute and didnt like my response and hung up on me. End of evening.

Anyway, little mini update.. im hittin the sheets exausted.

MrLocked-

Yep.....I could see that coming a mile away.

This is what Plan A is supposed to do. I think I told you a while back, it confuses the crap out of the WS, because they don't understand why you're being so nice while they're tearing you down. It would make sense to them if you were being mean, and fighting back....they would know what to do with that. They don't know what to do with you being the wonderful person you are.

She's seriously worried that you will be able to get custody of the kids, because she's being horrible to them, and to you. She KNOWS what's wrong with DS9's grades and why DS12 has to go to the counselor. That's why it's messing her up so bad. It's becoming impossible for her to pretend that everything she's doing is A-OK and normal.

She's starting to crack.....*Starting* to.

Keep up with the Plan A stuff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know it's hard. If you set a time limit for Plan A it's a little easier. Like say you're going to do this for 6 months. (Not to say you should do it that long....it's really up to how you FEEL) and if you've done the best Plan A you can possibly do for the time period you've set up, and you can't take it anymore, then it's time for Plan B.

She's responding to all of this really quickly, so I think that Plan B would work like a charm as well.

I'm certainly not telling you to go to B yet, but when you do (if it gets that far) I think she will respond to that quickly also. You see at this time, you are filling some of her EN's and the OM is filling some of her EN's, when you go to Plan B....you leave the sole responsiblity for filling her EN's up to the OM. She'll be hurting from not having her EN's filled by you, she'll be REALLY needy, and depressed, etc. Well....that's not what the OM signed up for. Right now their in fantasy land, where there aren't any real problems. Plan B brings them both firmly into the light of reality, where a relationship built on lies, and the pain of others cannot stand up.

I hope that I've given you something to hang on to. I know you thought you screwed up. But the MB plans are built on doing pretty much the opposite of what you FEEL like doing. I mean think about it. Who in their right mind is overtly nice to someone that's cheating on them?? LOL It's counter-intuitive. Thing is......it works <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

-Caren

MLU: Here's a thought, I hope it helps. Early in my sitch one of my generous advisors here on MB suggested I ask my WW "What do you think are the biggest walls between us?".

Simple approach, simple question. But powerful. It shows you care about her and about her opinions, and that you want to make it better.

In my case I'd been getting almost nothing but attitude from FWW for the 2 months since her A started. But that question really opened the floodgates. For the first time, she admitted her A and her regrets, and remorse for what she was doing to us. And then another half-hour of the same. What a relief it was to get that from her!

Then I blew it. Couldn't handle the emotions. LB'd all over the place. Man what a mistake. That day I turned a huge opportunity into a mess.

Anyway, maybe it's worth posing that question, or something like it, to your WW. Then don't be like me. Handle the response graciously and treat it as a place to build. I believe that approach, or something like it that shows you care about her feelings, could play a key role in improving things in your M.

Best wishes and God Bless.

Thanks Caren... good suggestion WeNeedHelp...

It continues today. She does not want me to take her kids away, I do not want them involved in her affair any longer and do not want her using her OM and the children to manipulate me any further. So what do you do.

She wont leave me alone. She promises to be nicer, to be a better person, to stop treating me like she has. I made absolutely no demands of her, she knows my truth. Again she told me to pack my things and come over and move back in, then pulled that offer back. The begging.

She said she broke it off with OM yesterday, can not believe that I would force her to stop being with someone she wants to, she doesnt love me like that anymore, she does not want to be married, etc etc etc. LA no I know to ignore most of this, i was just repeating it. I expected this in a way. She decided on her own to break things off (or so she says, i do not buy it).

I did not force her to do anything, i made zero demands on her. I spoke my truth.

So what next. I am still doing Plan-A and I am not LB, I do not think I am.

Almost forgot... Since she said she broke it off with OM she is going to need more financial help form me since he was helping her with her bills. Hmm..

MrLU,

How did you respond to her saying she broke it off with OM? Did you ask for a no contact letter and her thoughts on a plan to rebuild the marriage?

I had to giggle about the "it's gonna cost you if I break up with OM" which is usually metaphorical...but not in your case.

You are doing a stunning Plan A. I would ask her about her opinion of the walls beteen you (great question) and follow Caren's lead...she's been there and done that.

Transparency isn't a demand, but a thoughtful request--same with NC letter, IMO.

LA

P.S. Was your son's counseling yesterday?

LA,

Sons counsoling is next tuesday. So no, did not go yet.

I do not believe she broke it off. I was told yesterday he was in her office when she had me on the phone claiming she called and broke it off.

No I did not mention a NC letter. I did mention I wanted to rebuild the marriage, thats what sparked the 'i dont love you's', etc. We will talk again later its my night with the boys. Hard trying to get to much through when you are trying to work to, ya know.. Lotsa pressure on me today, partner and her.

I will definitly ask her opinion of the walls between us.

Her sister works with her. She just text'd me and told me my WW is so upset and hates me, that I got an attorney and going to go for sole custody, and she is telling everyone. I never said I had an attorney, I told her I wanted my children out of that situation and I wanted my family back (which included her).

Anyway, back to work..

Hang in there Lock. I think I am going to find myself somewhere near where you are now in a few weeks is something doesn't give. WW has for lack of a better word gone crazy and is incapable of logic or reasoning.

I hope that you stay strong and do what you need to do for you kids. I intend to do the same. I hope that our WW's see the light and make an effort to come back but if not it is our responsibility to protect the children.

I will be praying for you.

Thanks hopeandpray. Trying to stay strong for the kids and myself, you do the same.

Oh LA, i forgot to add that she said she is only breaking it off with OM so I do not take her kids. She said she still does not want to work on the marriage.

She did have a moment and told me she did still love me, But of course, after she said that she went on about how im making her hate me, loosing that love for me. Babble i know.

So with her only breaking it off with OM to stop me from doing anything, would a NC letter still be something I should ask for. Since she does not seem to want to work on anything?

I must be dense...

I hear you saying that she is only breaking it off with OM so you don't take her kids. That she isn't doing it voluntarily, is that the issue?

Because you can't know she's actually broken up with OM, right? I view the NC as a step in that direction, it is what you need, even then, you will be skeptical, just less so. Am I offbase here? Having a NC written and certified mailed to OM would be a good thing? Her understanding that no contact is no contact whatsoever...not by phone, email or in person? Otherwise, she's just saying she ended her A?

That's my way of thinking. You can do whatever you want. Are you going to hold what she says is the reason for ending the A against her? I told you...many WS won't go quietly into that good night of no contact. They will kick, scream, attempt to degrade and not give their spouse satisfaction of being right--even try to make it look to themselves like they were blackmailed into no contact...but that passes, in time, and truth comes out slowly, surely, to the point that there is a recommitment to the marriage, heartfelt remorse (severe guilt, shame and embarrassment), and personal recovery.

For now, ending the affair is the purpose of Plan A. You're achieving something wonderful, if it is true...only time will tell.

Your decision. You taking the kids was not a threat--a just consequence for her involving them with OM. You're the father and can't have that. Her choice to end contact, right?

LA

LA,

Yes, what im saying is what she is telling me. She is breaking it off with OM so she does not loose her children. I did not give her an ultimatum, force her into any decisions.. I simply told her that's enough, I am taking the kids out of this situation. She decided on her own to 'SAY' she is going to end it. And yes for sure she is kicking, screaming, threatening to hate, etc.. You name it.

Yes absolutely I want a NC letter. I guess im just confused on how I am going to get her to write a no-contact letter saying she wants to work on the marriage, etc.. when she tells me that she has no intentions on working on the marriage, is only going to break it off keep her children, etc? Know what I am saying now. Maybe i just do not get it.

But yes, her choice to end contact...

--

Mr.Locked-

Hmmmm see I dunno about an NC letter quite yet (One should definitely be sent, but I think she's a little off balance right now). She's flopping around all over the place....I don't think it would help, it's going to be one of those *My husband forced me to send that letter OM, please disregard it* things. I'm not seeing the benefit, other than making the OM think she's psychotic....which he's probably beginning to think anyway...LOL.

I wonder if she has talked to him about breaking it off with him.......hmmmmmmm.

So OM was helping her with the bills?? What the heck...do you think that's actually true??

She's is SERIOUSLY frightened you could take those kids....I certainly wouldn't tell her any differently....let her sweat.

You need to stay calm even while she's freaking out. You need to be the voice of sanity here.

When she's flipping out about losing the kids, and not being able to pay her bills....etc., calmly say "WW, I want to help you, I want to work this out, but I can't with OM in our lives."

This *A* is self destructing MrLocked......which was the point of doing Plan A to begin with. It usually doesn't work so text book well....but with her it seems to be.

You have to be the lighthouse.........you have to guide her back home. Keep plan Aing....I think you should do something nice for her again....like the picture you gave her....that ought to really mess her up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

-Caren