I don't get you at all...

(A) There is a good chance that this trip is a way [censored] someone else.
(B) You and she need help.
(C) You need to spend as much time with her as possible

BUT:

You're too busy to spend the weekend with her?

What is more important than your M? What possibly is more important than her? And, aren't you telling her, "Hey, we got marital problems, and we really need to save our M, but, I'm busy. I'll try to work on this next week."

PLEASE READ: If she goes off f*cks someone else this weekend, your life will become a living h*ll. Further, you could end up divorced in a couple of months.

So, tell me, what is so critical that is worth you giving up time with the most important person in this world? Money?

Where in my post(s) did I say I was too busy to spend the weekend with her? I said that I decided not to go. I made that decision based on her needs, and the needs of my family, not mine.

Over the last several weeks I am home every day at 5pm and spend every night with her. Her top EN is conversation. We spend 30 plus hours a week in just time together between us two, much of that spent in conversation with me being the listener. I spend another 20 hours per week meeting other EN's like housework and family time.

My work is suffering greatly, as it now does not have a CEO and VP who are leading it because we are focused on our M. We cofounded this together, my W and I, and we are witnessing it suffer greatly because of our pain.

If the parents of our daughter could be IN love with each other again, I would gladly give it all up.

Much of the conversation results in Conflict, but it’s better than us being in Withdrawal. I have much to learn still in my journey to be the kind of husband and person that I really am meant to be. I am not the guy who neglected her anymore. I am not the guy who ignored her needs anymore. That guy doesn’t live here anymore.

There is nothing more important than my M right now. Period.

Before she left for the weekend workshop she agreed to go on the MB weekend with me next week. I have been hoping for weeks that she would change her mind and agree to go.

MCM

I'd just like to thank those who posted and sent PM's of support this week. Some of you oldtimers got some serious battle scars...and what is so impressive is that you stick around long after you're recovery and give back. That is an amazing gift to a newb like me.

I need to climb in the hot tub and get a good night sleep...long weekend without WW awaits. Daughter and I are going to "tear up the town" this weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (=Legoland eats up another pair of shoes)

thanks.

mcm

MCM,

I just read over this thread..... I guess I am that 'old' one that Fishracer was talking about. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

From what I read, your W had to create the scenario that allowed the A to flourish. As a result, no matter what you do, you are not good enough.

Given the above, educating a WS isn't a practical use of one's time.

Instead, check out these options:

1. Read SAA (surviving an affair), HNHN (his needs/her needs).... if it gets rough, read Love must be Tough. The 1st 2 books are by Dr Harley. The 3rd by Dr James Dobson.

2. Take the En questionnaire.....you and your W. If she won't take you, you take it twice....once as you then as her....but not in drag. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

3. Work with Steve or Jennifer from MB. Jennifer is good working with the WSW's. It c/b harder for your W to see herself 'getting away' with anything if she works with Jennifer....even though she won't get away with anything working with Steve,.....well as a WS she is already having an problem with men..... JMHO.

4. Secure your finances. Secure your business....delegate as needed.

5. Do a background check on the OM.

6. Get IC for your children, make them part of your support group and visa versa.

7. Identify your boundaries. Read up on plans A & B. Learn when to implement the plans and your boundaries.

8. Pray for a calm heart and a clear mind along with lots of patience.

9. Know that you can't teach a WS. So don't try. Instead....learn to 'reverse babble'. This will allow you to give back the guilt and babble which comes from the WS. They can't help it....the A is like a scary disease which forces the WS to do and say cruel things to the family.

10. Expect her to grumble no matter what you do, so do what you feel is best w/o regrets. WS' tend to change their minds very quickly. There is no pleasing a WS. If the BS wants or says he wants it, the WS will act like she doesn't want it.

11. Learn to id when issues are truly your issues vs. babble. Do not take abuse.

Think that's enough to keep you busy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Oh no Orchid - not old - seasoned! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

Seasoned?!?!?! Hm... as in jerky!??!!? Just kidding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I know what you mean and I am honored. Trying to keep the wrinkles at bay though..... really here age doesn't matter, it is the experience and what we have done with it that shows. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just giving you a hard time cuz I know you love it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

MCM,

How r u doing?

L.

Orchid,

I love your suggestions. Thank You <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> They put the focus on me and my reactions vs. what WW does or does not do.

While WW was at out of town workshop this weekend I used the trust but verify methods suggested here to confirm no PA. I know that there are many BS's here who were sure WS was keeping NC promise, only to find out that the A was still going on under their nose, so all I can say is that I took what I believe to be reasonable steps.

Frankly, the time with our daughter this weekend was a welcome rest to all the babble, blame and resentments that WW deals to me on a daily basis.

I made all arrangements for trip to SF next weekend for MB workshop. I am really looking forward to it.

Read HNHN last night. Considering buying SAA and Love Busters books...but I'll wait for next weekend as we get many of his pub's included in the workshop.

I have an interesting range of emotions I'm trying to deal with. On one hand, I feel a deep sense of responsibility for getting to this point in time. For a decade, my wife needed me to meet her most important needs. She told me in many different ways, yet I largely neglected her. I know that she also was responsible for the relationship deteriorating...I wasn’t "dancing" by myself for all these years.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am finding it difficult to focus on my chit while WW continues to rationalize and justify having the A because of my selfish behaviors. In a way it seems like she likes seeing me take responsibility for my part, not because it will help the R, but because she sees that it takes the focus off of her thereby minimizing her guilt.

BTW Orchid, I read your original post on reverse babble and found it very enlightening. That one thread alone will probably reduce the number of times I feel like smacking my head against the wall this upcoming week by 50%.

MCM

Orchid: Glad it helps.


Orchid: Good. Reasonable steps comes from using a clear mind and a calm heart. Keep up the good work.


Orchid: Good..... do more of this.


Orchid: Love must be tough is another good book. It is by Dr. James Dobson. Leans more towards plan B. It is vital a good plan A then plan B be done. The benefit is for the BS and family, NOT the WS. Remember that. Those plans are NOT for the WS. Maybe for your Xws but not the WS.


Orchid: That range of emotions will contribute to the roller coaster ride that the WS is desparately trying to keep you on. The sooner you get ahold of your emotions, know your boundaries, implement them, secure your immediate support group, expose, secure your legal and financial status'.....the sooner you can get off that roller coaster.


Orchid: It is difficult. No lie. Regardless of what she sees, says and does..... you move forward with what you know and do.


Orchid: Reverse babble. Saved the WS' life many times. LOL!!! Mine 2! Ok, we want you to save more than 1/2 your brain, ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Talk about banging one's head against a wall....take a look at testeddevotion and his WS Crystal. Those 2 are trying to use MB as their personal battlezone. YIKES!! That's what most of us face but only the BS tends to post.

Anyways....it may help you see which one is going insane and how close the other one may be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Orchid: That last part made me laugh. What a bonus...I get to laugh while I pound down some reality. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

WW is coming back from SI workshop this weekend titled "How to heal a painful relationship, and if necessary part as friends".

It seems like based on her comments this weekend (again I can't hang much on what she says), she went into it with the idea that the parting as friends part was her goal but came out with a motivation to work on the M.

I suppose nothing has changed much for me as I know my job right now is to do a great Plan A. I've done a decent Plan A, but I can do better. Namely I need to stop talking about improving the R and putting pressure or expectations on her. I've identified some holes in my Plan A from just cruising around the MB forums this weekend that need holed up. I need to decide whether to do them this week or wait until after the MB Weekend coming up in a few days.

The smart move I think would be to keep a low profile this week and be ULTRA sensitive to any LB's and meet the EN's that provide the greatest happiness. Those are the EN's that are made that DO NOT feel to her like I am TRYING to work on the R...if that makes sense.

I can smell sanity. I can smell it just as strong as the rush of my grandma's seven layer Torte as I step into our home on those frigid winter nights 35 years ago. But I suppose it will always just be that sweet inviting smell. Unless and until I find the door with the sign over it marked: Acceptance.

MCM

Things went good after picking her up at the airport last night despite some initial tension. Got to work this morning and she made a comment about not being able to fill out the LBI for the upcoming MB weekend because she was afraid her computer was still bugged and nothing she did was confidential. That led us down a three hour road of tears, hurt and dare I say a wee bit of healing.

In that three hours I made it a point to be accepting of her instead of defensive or judgemental, reverse babbled when appropriate, listened to her fears and let her own them instead of trying to fix or lessen them, communicated my feelings honestly, noticed her withdrawal from OM's with empathy (this was hard), encouraged her to look at upcoming MB weekend as a "research project".

Through all this I found myself coming out on the other end of this exchange feeling okay instead of wasted. I feel drained, but not in a bad way.

She still wants to file for a D and wants to move out but is willing to go on this research project to "see if the M is salvagable".

mcm

WW and I are two weeks into Plan A.

Some observations and a couple of questions:

1) Mid Life Crises. My WW is definitely going through a MLC. She has been a high functioning professional woman who has juggled the demands of work, family and success extremely well...until a few months ago. Now she is in the process of losing it all. Can anyone refer me to resources that embrace similar concepts as found here on MB that deal with woman in MLC? Most of them I see refer to men.

2) Withdrawal. The NC method is working. She is definitely experiencing withdrawal pains from the online EA. Any good advise on helping WS with withdrawal? It amazes me that the pull of an online EA is/was so powerful. I already know that ideally I should be the one to replace those needs that were met by the EA and I am eager to do so. But it's too early....she won't let me.

3) Divorce Talk. In the midst of employing MB principles and her willingness (EN Questionnaire, MB counseling with Steve, MB Workshop, etc...) she still talks about needing to separate and wanting the divorce. It's almost as if she somehow can't let herself free from the idea of separation and divorce despite some overwhelming evidence that recovery is very possible. I noticed recently that the more I accept her assertions of separation and divorce (instead of fighting them like I used to) the more anxiety she feels. Last night instead of me saying my usual response of how I don’t think separation will help, I told her I would help her find an apartment and help move her stuff out. We then talked about shared parenting time.

She absolutely lost it and started crying uncontrollably on and off for about 45 minutes. In the beginning, she threatened suicide again if she couldn’t have our daughter 80% of the time…then she said she would just give it all up. At one point she stood up and whipped her purse across the room and yelled “OKAY, you want me as your wife #@%#&* fine, you got me now are you happy”. Then she wept uncontrollably again for another hour.

She let me hold her and comfort her. She asked me if I could ever love and like someone like her ever again. We both just held each other for a long time and then fell asleep.

I love her so much; I hate to see her go through all this hurt and pain but I know it is necessary for recovery to set in. I don’t know what the future of our relationship will look like. All I can do is work the MB principles to the best of my ability and pray that God’s will be done.

mcm

MCM,

IMHO, MLC and the behavior of a WS mimick each other. It may be easier for you to take comfort in the definitions of MLC but it does not change your situation. Maybe in hindsight it can be chalked up to MLC but that can only really be determined later. A lot of posters come on here trying to discover and research the "why's?" only to discover in recovery that their spouse just made a mistake, and that mistake alone was the cause of all the odd behavior.

I thought I should also comment on this statement:


It is usually a BIG mistake to enable your WS in any way. If they are to change and commit to giving the marriage another shot, despite not "feeling it", they often have to come to the realization that the PAIN involved in leaving outweighs the pain of sticking it out and/or just trying. If she wants to leave, you can't physically stop her, but it is best if you make her do all the work. WS's consistently make irrational decisions and walk-out on their families despite the legal ramnifications of doing so. It's called "abandonmnet" and if she leaves absent a Legal Separation Agreement or Divorce Petition you will be in a much stronger legal position for full or primary custody of your children.

Why should you be denied the majority of custody if your wife flakes out on you? The pain she will incur if she loses custody often provides the magnet to get them to finally decide to return to the marriage. Of course, getting custody is not to be done as a vindictive measure. The kids are not pawns in some game; but, it is in their best interests that the marriage recover....period. Additionally, in the event the final outcome is a divorce and you both have personally recovered, you, as the primary custodial parent can modify the schedule as suit what you determine to best suit your broken family's needs. You can decide that the fight is over and decide to co-exist more amicable as co-parents...WHEN AND IF YOU CHOOSE.

Also, if your wife discusses a separation agreement or divorce...you indicate you do marriage only. If she wants to discuss those matters have her attorney contact your attorney. There is no way you can discuss it with her and assert your honest position without making withdrawals from your love bank. In your battle to save your marriage, you need to make pursuing that course of action as difficult and burdensome as possible. No pain, no change. Make her carry the load so to speak.

Do not move out...ever (absent a court order). Get as involved with your children's lives as possible and keep a journal of all your involvement. Make certain you appear to at the very least carry out 50% or more of the care of your children. With your wife's current condition...that should be easy to do. BTW, your wife is not a bad person, mother or wife...but your Wayward Wife is...you are the only sane, rational person, parent, and spouse in the house right now. You sound like you are getting this stuff so stick with your plan and win her back.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering