I don't really know where to post this so I chose here.
Let me start by saying I expect the riot act to be read but I know what I have done and need help. So please bypass all the yelling and help me.
My wife and I were married 9 years ago after a year of engagement. We were living together and loved each other very much. I had come from 2 marriages and she from 1. We both felt we had found the one. Now for the sticky part... I began in the beginning of our relationship expressing my desire for her to flirt. However it grew into a strong desire for her to enjoy the company of OM.
It was expressed by her to me that although she enjoyed the attention she knew how wrong it was for her to do that and if we were to be married I would need to stop the asking. We even got into some heated discussions about it. She told me if I wanted that that she couldn't be my wife... That was in the beginning. Over the years it started and stopped depending on the participation of her in the fantasy. I just wouldn't leave it alone. Our sex life became me wanting her to tell me a story about some guy she wanted to be with. (sick I know)... It is here I feel I should say that I never have been unfaithful to her...
However, I wanted her to have relations with OM. It became an obsession hidden in our life. We went from having sex all the time to just once a month or so in the last 4 years. In the last year she has allowed me sex 4 times, and none since September.
Now we are not the best at budgeting and have struggled as well in that area. So the Bank has been steadily stressed. Now to what is going on.
In the beginning of the year 2005 I was on track for a major promotion in my company. We had just moved to Ga. and she was as happy as I had ever seen her and falling all over me to tel me how much she loved me. We had still not been very active sexually for a couple of months. When she came to Ga to be with me her job started talking to her about a promotion as well. Since that was introduced I was asked if I was going to move her again if I got my promotion. Of course there was the chance. She then became distant. During all this I was still asking her to indulge my fantasy. In July EVERYTHING changed. She met one of her old bosses for dinner and stayed out til 6 am. When she came home I did not act upset but was hoping to here a story and details. (I know) She told me nothing happened but that was the beginning of what is happening now. Since then she has focused all her energy on the promotion she was offered. I being the idiot still asked her to tell me what happpened in the hotel that night.
This, I now know, infuriated her and deadened her heart to me. I know I completely messed up but really need help to get her to forgive me and understand I am truly sorry.
Our son is starting to show signs of the stress and I cannot stand for him to be affected. She has withdrawn to the point of working later and telling me that she doesn't feel she can be my friend and wife. That she would like to be my friend but doesn't see both happening anymore. I have gone from being completely not a jealous man to a nervous snooping rat. I feel she has found comfort in another man and hasnt the nerve to tell me. I asked outright and she said no. She says she has so much anger built up in her about the things she was "allowed" to do and did that she needs time to think. That has been since September. She is also saying she is tired of not having any retireent savings. That she is going to take care of it with her new promotion on her own. Which rings of selfpreservation to me. Now we are looking to get counseling but I don't know what can change her heart.
Please realize I have asked forgiveness of the father and believe it has been granted. All I need is some advice on what to do. I long for her forgiveness as well. How do I get her back??

Ashamed wow it was brave of you to come here and ask for help. I'm not sure what advice to give. But I think it is very important for you to seek IC yourself. Your obcession of wanting your wife to be with OM seems to have biten you. I think you need to figure out why that was something you needed. Read up on plan A be the kind of H she needs you to be...work on your issues first.

Welcome to marriagebuilders. Wow, what a mess. I think that you need to start in Plan A, like everyone else. That includes exposing the affair, if that is what you find.

We have quite a few folks here who got in trouble by expressing their fantasies, so you are not alone.

It sounds like money problems are adding to the stress, so there is where you can do some work.

I know it is a mess... Thank you for your replies! It's not like I don't know what she wants or wanted. She has told me what the issues are. I have started a plan A and this was my next big step, telling my story to you. I appreciate the support. As for IC, I have been speaking with our pastor and that has led me here. I also should tell you that I had read the HNHN with my wife years ago and we started getting straight then I messed it up again with the desire. She constantly refers to the BANK section. Am I wrong or is there 2 banks? hers and mine? I am reminded constantly of how wrong I am and have been in our life. 90% of our financial situation is due to my actions( I dont see it that way)... I am a very successful businessman away from home, however unable to make the connection at home. Income isnt our problem... We make plenty. She controls the budget for the most part but we still have trouble with it. I am at a loss. Again, THANK YOU for your support and thank you for not drumming me out of here...

ashamedH, you should read the thread by brokenbird. His situation is very similar to yours. He and his WW magpie are working to heal their marriage. hurt and lost click on the link. I think it will be helpful for you.

Thank you so much for the heads up on Brokenbirds situation... How very similar it is. At least his WW is involved, as mine is to date unaware of this posting.

Helpful it was if only to let me feel I am not alone in my sin to my W. I am so ashamed and destroyed as a man. My W has no respect for me either as she has told me so. She has told me as Magpie said, how she is Angry for allowing herself to do those things and Angry with me for making it OK.

She too is a strong independent woman. She fell in love with me because I was willing to go toe to toe with her and not let her get her way all the time like other men. Now I am a shell of a man just waiting for her to crack the whip and make me jump. I am so beat down I don't really want to be around anyone.

As I said earlier my IC has led me here. I am hopeful that I can get the insight I need to make the right decisions to get her heart back.

When I go to kiss her I get the cheek treatment. When I go to hold her I get the stiffness. I don't know how to tell her anyting or how to approach her to hug. Last night in the hot tub it was our first time in it since it was fixed. She got in and I joined after our son went to sleep. We talked about deck furniture and all I could think was how much I just wanted to hold her in my arms.

That didnt happen... I felt like a lovesick teenager wondering if I should make a move or not. I finally moved in to kiss her and got 4 nice pecks. That is the most since Christmas. Not even on my Birthday last week. I premised the kiss as I was getting out to go to bed.

Speaking of my Bday... I got up early to go to work and it was MLK day so I was going to meet her to get our son so she could work in the afternoon a little. Well she met me in the parking lot of a coffee shop and when he got out she told him to sing happy bday to me right there. I was devistated. Don't exactly know why nut it just wreaked of uncaring disrespect. You know,just as good a place as any attitude.

Later that evening in our bed we lay there not speaking. The light goes out and I am so frustrated I can't sleep. I roll over and ask her if I could hold her. She blasted me with.."DO you see I am Asleep?!?!" I spent the rest of my bday on the couch. Which my son woke me up on the next am... being only 4 I am sure he had no clue why...

Back to present day... each day seems to be different. We still make daily decisions as if I am welcome forever. Plan A may be working. But I am so destroyed from the fear of her asking me to go that I am near shutdown. I am usually a very c*cky confident Alpha male. My colleagues are all wondering where the old me went... I have been doing everything in my power and borrowing some of Gods dear grace to make sure I don't screw up again.

I still have the needs as listed in the book.

One thing I noticed more than anything is that she doesnt cry anymore. About anything. especially us...
Not that I want her too at all. Just noticed it. (please don't think I want her to cry)

What is so crazy about this fantasy stuff I wanted is that I never even consider having an A myself... Yet I am sure she can't or doesnt understand that concept.

Still willing to listen and Thank you all for putting up with my rambling...

God Bless!

A couple of thouughts here.

It takes alot of stones to come to a message board and post the things you did above. Many men might not even have the guts to do that on an anonymous message board. You get my admiration for doing at least that.

Like many fantasies people have , you'll probably realize what excites you is not really that abnormal for many people. Now, before everyone starts going crazy saying I am condoning this, I am not....just realize that you are not as "weird" or as crazy as you think. No, that doesn't make it right, but you should realize that.

I don't know if any of what I told you is going to help. As someone told you already, having fantasies and acting on fantasies are COMPLETELY different things.

I hope you and your wife figure this out.

Lem

Lemonman, You think it takes stones for here... try talking in person to your PASTOR!! Whew...
Thank you for the post!

realize I seriously disrespected my wife AND my family by asking her to act on her impulses. I am so ashamed yet not devistated because I know the Lord has forgiven me. Yet I am a shell of a man in my house because of the things that have been allowed by me.

Yes she was the one to actually initiate and take action on her impulses. But I am the ultimate blame for not protecting her and cherishing her the way SHE need to be.

If I can just do everything I tell her I am going to do WHEN I tell her I will do it. Take care of little things for her so that the stress she feels from work isn't compounded when she gets home. (little things a real man should have already taken care of)... If I can make sure I am a better steard of our finances at home. These things I can do now. Since she is disallowing ANY SF for the past 5 months.. There really hasn't been any opportunity to prove to her I can resist the desire and not ask for just sexual fantasy night.

The later isthe part that is wearing on me the most I suppose. 5 months ago was the first time in 4 months... And she got mad then because she got to thinking about everything during S. So really it has been 9 months.

That is a big frustration with me... Yet I hold my tongue now(thanks to my IC with our pastor)Whereas before I would have been a Smart-A** by now.

I really want this woman to be my wife for the rest of our lives!!

I pray for more insight from here.

Mr. Smart A** appeared again today after a discussion about blame last night.

We just moved and I was asked to pack up the office. I needed the printer up til we left. When we were loading everyhting my W packed the printer up however left the cord and power pack out. I saw it and packed it in another box... Of course it is missing now.

She needed the scanner and printer for a very inprtant sale and I was unable to locate the cord. Knowing the importance of the sale(14K bonus) I went to get another scanner printer to do the job. Hooked it up, got it working, scanned the document, couldnt match the fonts and Voila!! I am to blame now for the potential loss of 14K.

I told her I was doing everyhting possible to make the sale work and wasn't going to take the blame for this! she went to bed and I followed to reitterate that I was not going to take the fall or blame for not being able to find a font that was different. (she forgot to get the correct documents and was trying to match them)

I said she needed to find a plumber or a horse trainer or someone else to blame cause it wasn't landing on me.

It was worse than it sounds from her end but I kind of blocked the snarling comments from my memory...

I slept in our sons bed with him....

She was alittle better this am yet I wasn't. I told her to tell her boss I was sorry for meesing up the sale.

Well that went over like a brick at a tomato throwin party..

Here is a woman's UTIMATE love fantasy ..... written in first person to make it more meaningful ... READY?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In my husband's eyes .... I am the worlds most beautiful woman .... I am his treasure beyond measure ... I am the closest thing to his finding heaven on earth when we are making love ... When my husband looks at me he sees beyond himself ... he experiences weightlessness of his conscious mind ... his soul soars ... When my husband touches me, his fingers tremble with joyous gratitude ... my husband prays a song of gratitude for the gift God has bestowed upon him ... My husband thirsts for deeper knowledge of who I am ... My husband adores me.... My husband's love is not defined by his need for me ... My husband's love is is defined by recognition of a miracle that God creates when the two of us come together as one



~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I could go on, but I won't, because you get the idea.

Plan A is fantastic --- carry on !

YOU need a miracle --- I just showed you what a miracle looks like from your wife's point of view.

What are you going to do about it?

Now compare this... (2X4 required ... but you are forewarned)



The point of making love is to create a deeper more meaningful intimacy ...

The point of "other person fantasy" is to create comfortable distance for people who want sex without the danger of intimacy ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Intimacy is allowing our spouse to see us ... you were hiding behind this fantasy.

Just so you know .... you have stumbled upon your crucible ... you will know you are getting closer to the intimacy you fear ... when your rising anxiety causes a desire to run away (like sleeping in your son's bed .... tsk-tsk)

Walk toward your anxiety next time.

Walk toward your anxiety next time.

.... and be grateful for the opportunity to experience the intimacy anxiety only your beautiful wife affords ....

Walk toward your anxiety next time.

By this I suppose you mean reveal more of myself to my wife?? Meaning talking to her about my fears and telling her I am scared of losing her???

If so this has been addressed and is a very quick way to push her further away I have found.

Now since I last spoke on here of my situation, my wife has been much more receptive. I have stuck to Plan A amazingly enough despite my frustration. As a result I feel she is coming around.

Also, what has happened is she has missed her large bonus she was counting on and her promotion did not come to fruition. I on the other hand have increased income by building my business steady and strong.

I understand what she wants and have been trying to give her those things. With your prayers and wishes I am expecting a full recovery.

Thank you all and God Bless!!!

not necessarily ... looking weak and scared in front of your woman is generally a big turn off for women ... we like our men to be emotionally strong

more like sharing with your wife how deep your feelings are for her and the extent of your desire to be the man of her dreams

sounds like you are making progress in that direction

know what my H says every day that just warms my heart to him?

he says:

"Is there anything I can do for you today?"

Turned on the closet switch and the bulb was still blown.... I said "Well there goes another thing I said I would do but didn't" She Said..."Look, I didn't mean things weren't better with us...which they are better... I meant the finances are not improving." YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! results from a conversation we had the night before about being in the same pickle and things not changing. I was terribly disturbed that we seemed to be moving forward and she said we were in the same place. But the next day....!!! Small victory.. but a victory indeed! Still no SF but I don't know if I could be responsive anyway.. too worried I would do or say something wrong...

Thanks for the prayers!!

As of late we have been getting along better, partially due to the fact that she has been coming home later.

For the past 6 months she has been fixated on her work and spending less time with our son and me. Me I can understand but not our son.

I apologize for the sporatic nature of this post but I a in such a frustrated and unnerved state I am having trouble regurgitating all the things I have to say.

Recently we had a discussion of what we are going to do about talking this out more and getting counseling. It hasn't been a pretty discussion.

First, why did I break from my quiet PlanA to confront her on a talk about the state of things? One night last week felt we were close to getting back on track yet had a question. Instead of tip toeing around an issue I asked her if we were ever going to be able to touch each other again... She said not anytime soon and that we are not any better off now than 2 months ago... Plan A has suffered a setback!! I feel...

I can say that I feel I have sucesfully removed 2 of the bullet points she says has been my downfall... That being the spending and the not doing what I say immediately thing. Yet we are still in the same place? I was mortified and upset yet held my tongue. I finaly laid down and made one of those comments ... you know... "why don't we just get I love lucy beds so your back wont hurt so much... You know twin beds. (no response from her)
Next morning...

She came to me to offer me the opportunity to persue that career advancement I withdrew myself from earlier last year so she could go after her career advancemnet. She said why dont you put your name back in the pot? My reply was "Why are you saynig that" (If I were to get the promotion I would most likely have to relocate and she has told me she was not moving again)
She said she didn't want to be the reason I didn't get it. And the time apart may do us some good. !!!!!!!!!

Of course I immediately went in to OMG mode in my head... "Is she saying we should get seperated?" "Did she just say we need time apart?" I was devistated once again!

This prompted me to asked before we left for work if we could schedule a time to talk this stuff over. Not a real answer but she said soon.

I then called later and asked if next week she had room for us to talk. Then she started talking to me on the phone telling me how disrespected and unloved she has felt over the last nine years. And how bad of a husband I WAS and how she doesnt know what she wants to do and "YOU BEST THINK BEFORE PUSHING ME FOR AN ANSWER TODAY BUCKO!!"
Then she totally berates me about how yes I was a stand up guy and a great father but not a good husband to her. (I realize I have hurt her continually with my arguing style and sex wishes).

Now remember I said there were 3 things she told me this is all about. #1. the sex thing of me wanted to see her with OM. #2. Not doing what I said I would in her time frame and #3. Not paying attention to the budget and spending arbitrarally.
Well now all of that has moved to just one thing(because 2 of them I have taken away from the list by doing the right things. Now it all about the fantasy stuff. The one thing I have no chance to prove because I can't get close enough to prove. I can't chage the past and I want to prove the future. My minister says I am ready to prove this change as well. I agree with him. WHat to do?

If I get the promotion she knows I will have to move and that is what is scaring me now... I will not leave for anything. I feel she is trying to get ME to make the move so she doesn't look to be the one leaving. Am I wrong? What can I do to show her that I truly have changed and want to make her happy? How can I stem this tide of withdrawal she is in? I fear she is not alone in her thoughts and their are others or another giving her the cofort she needs.

As for our child... He is 4 and gets upset when his Mommy isnt home to say his prayers. She asks me how he is and I tell her he got upset and now she says I am using him to play a game with her. As a matter of fact, she is accusing me of playing games alot lately when I try to do the things you guys suggest o make things better.

I try the sweetness and the notes and get slapped down by this game playing accusation. Really frustrating!!!


HELP

AH,

It would be great to see you post more consistently. This way seems to me like you go from inner crisis to inner crisis. Extremes mean patch work, some triage. I see your life as having some basic beliefs that cause daily internal bleeding. Can't get to those in a crisis state of mind, IMO.

Do you still believe this? We both felt we had found the one from your first post?

That would be a crucial belief to examine. For both of you.

Demonstrating how you've changed regarding the fantasies isn't difficult. You have to know why you had them and state those reasons. Show what you got out of them and how you're getting those things in a healthy way due to recognition and awareness.

partially due to the fact that she has been coming home later. Here is another belief to challenge. Why do you believe this leads to getting along better? It is the better I question.

I apologize for the sporatic nature of this post but I a in such a frustrated and unnerved state I am having trouble regurgitating all the things I have to say. You have an expectation of how you want to communicate. Your posts reveal far more in what you believe is their sporadic state than any controlled, carefully structured post you might envision would. Why apologize? What kind of image do you want to hold yourself to? The regurgitating is easily remedied...commit to posting more often, like a journal.

First, why did I break from my quiet PlanA to confront her on a talk about the state of things? One night last week felt we were close to getting back on track yet had a question. Instead of tip toeing around an issue I asked her if we were ever going to be able to touch each other again... She said not anytime soon and that we are not any better off now than 2 months ago... Plan A has suffered a setback!! I feel...

Why did you break Plan A and talk R? Why did you lovebust with asking when affection will return instead of stating that you miss affection, how much and what it means to you?

Your W's opinion is hers...she feels the same as she did two months ago. That isn't reality...just what she feels. Hear it and repeat it.

Plan A is your plan, not hers. Are you judging the setback because you broke out of it, or because of her response?

I was mortified and upset yet held my tongue. Because of this, when an "I" statement would have served you well, you LB'd with your Lucy comment. Why retaliate? "I feel moritified and upset. I hear you are asking for a seperation."

Where's the lovebust in that?

how disrespected and unloved she has felt over the last nine years.

Your response: "I hear you feel I've disrespected and not cared for your feelings for the last nine years." Where's the argument? You're attempting to understand her truth--yours is very different. First attempt to understand, then be understood.

Validate her perspective. She is full of anger, fog, resentments piled up to the roof, and this is her persepctive.

You have treated each other in the same ways. DJs, SDs, AOs...each of you gave yourself permission to behave this way. Your Lucy remark was more of the same. You have a reactive marriage...Plan A for one of you to stop being reactive, but active, with conscious choice.

Do a real Plan A. Listen, speak and act from your code of standards and boundaries. Cull out and burn your expectations of her responses, how you want her to respond, and your life. Define yourself, and control yourself, not from deprivation (holding your tongue), but from choosing your words and actions. Non-reactive. Stay in the present. Do not base your response on her response to your response...endless and exhausting.

Listen and repeat She asks me how he is and I tell her he got upset and now she says I am using him to play a game with her.

Response "I hear you believe that I am informing you of his reaction to you not being here as a game I am playing."

Hand her back her words...they are hers. She may not be speaking from her belief, but her wish--if you were doing that, she'd feel better about reacting so terribly to you. Just saying that you aren't, wasn't your intent, arguing that you're not, is discountable. Her words were stated. Hand them back. Have them confirmed or denied. Restated or explained. Her choice. Listen. Disconnect your automatic reactive wire that keeps exploding in your head.

Listen. Hand back. Confirm. Contemplate. Accept information--not truth. Just her truth.

Your own beliefs seem to make this Plan A impossible. You have used her to define who you are...and your wives before her, and you automatically respond from the belief she is right, or reject it because of your own belief that you weren't a bad husband. Conflict. Lots of internal conflict.

You won't need to ask her for when you can get your needs met if you're busy figuring out your life and why you believe that humans are supposed to react and not act. By believing that you will be loved, accepted and respected if you stop doing three things...is that practical?

Agreeing to do something and not doing it (her timeframe or not) is passive agressive behavior. You create a lot of resentments, control and power struggles, and it goes back to childhood, like most of the other stuff you're doing. Just doing what you say you will do right away will not effectively cure this problem. You will feel more self-control, but still hold resentments for those things which you don't feel able to say no to--resentments are garbage you throw over reality and your love. They are a part of anger...they are fed to you by your own expectations and feed you in your own ways. Find the pay off.

I try the sweetness and the notes and get slapped down by this game playing accusation. Really frustrating!

To try is to lie. When you act lovingly, you are doing it for yourself, to demonstrate your feelings, making them known. You do it so your son knows he's loved. Same with your wife. That doesn't mean your son will know it or your wife perceive it. You just take the actions, make love the verb. Your code. Can't get slapped down unless you are doing these loving things to get a certain response. You are slapping yourself.

LA

P.S. Forgot to mention...my H did the same thing you did with the fantasies and took it further than you did. We recovered our marriage.

Do you still believe this? We both felt we had found the one from your first post? YES

"You have to know why you had them and state those reasons. Show what you got out of them and how you're getting those things in a healthy way due to recognition and awareness."
I know that my addiction to the fantasy and the excitement derived clouded my thinking like a drug and exposed my loved ones to an ugly side of myself that I had little control over.



commit to posting more often, like a journal.
THANK YOU FOR THIS ADVICE! I WILL.


partially due to the fact that she has been coming home later. Here is another belief to challenge. Why do you believe this leads to getting along better? It is the better I question.
These were my wifes words more than mine

Why did you lovebust with asking when affection will return instead of stating that you miss affection, how much and what it means to you?
I have absolutely no idea how to approach her about this. I have ordered the Love Busters and hope to get it soon.

That isn't reality...just what she feels. Hear it and repeat it. ????

Are you judging the setback because you broke out of it, or because of her response? Mostly cause I broke from it.

"First attempt to understand, then be understood."
How do I make myself understood when she tells me I am playing games with her? (which I am most certainly not)

"To try is to lie."
Man... Harsh but I am listening. I should have said I AM being sweet and sending notes...?

Can't get slapped down unless you are doing these loving things to get a certain response. You are slapping yourself.
By slapped down I meant that I get accused of doing these things, which she has noted before as sweet and makes her happy, as a game I am playing.

.....As a note I agree with you that I have alot of internal conflict from the past. I am not sure if it i childhood or what but whatever it stems from I wish terribly to resolve them so My family can survive this storm....

When you act lovingly, you are doing it for yourself, to demonstrate your feelings, making them known.
I am acting lovingly because I am struggling with the anger I have inside myself. I feel like I am grasping and can't control my emotions at times due to fear of losing my wife.

....I have not posted as often because of taking care of business at home and not knowing how to say what I want to say. I sit sometimes and type and type and wind up deleting due to frustration. I AM working on this Plan A although clumsy as I may seem at it. I am!

I am at my best friends house this weekend due to my W asking, no telling me that I had to find somewhere to go because her cousin is coming to visit and since we don't get along I needed to leave for a few days. This cousin and I don't argue but we don't get along the best. I am afraid she is filling my wife with affirmation of her actions.

As to your history... I don't know how far he went but I too far for her. I thank you for the tough love and hope you reply more... Something told me you could help!!

God Bless...

Also... How do I read the time apart doing us good thing when she has been explicit in the past about not doing well with seperation? I asked her this and she said things change!!

Anyone??