Sunnyva39,
I do feel that he does "keep score". I'm not sure what the reasoning is behind it. I do so much for him and his kids, that I find his knit picking to be very out of line plus the fact that I didn't feel I was being selfish in the first place.

The kids would be somewhat on my way home...He would have quite a drive - but I don't feel it my responsibility at this time. Am I wrong in thinking this? This is something that will come up this summer. It hasn't even been an issue.

He seems to think that because one day I say something, then that's the way it will always be...I just sometimes need time to come around. Eventually, I may have been able to do that.

I feel that he pressured and pressured me about the marriage, and now he has yanked it away. Not sure what to do at this point?

D

[color:"green"]Maybe you should do some reading for your own edification:

here

I'm a nice person and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I always ended up with men that treated me poorly, or kept score, or took me for granted, or ignored my opinion...

One thing that you may want to consider is that you never do anything that you are not enthusiastic about. That means that there are no expectations of some kind of pay off. (As in if I am a very good girl - he will be good to me too) (Or if I buy him expensive things or help him clean his house he will buy me expensive things or help me fix my leaky roof)

The other thing is that he seems to be playing a push pull kind of game that codependents play.

V.[/color]

sunnyva39,
Thanks for the link. I'm not sure I quite understand the definition of co-dependent. I went to your link, and have been reading about some of the books on Amazon. From what I am gathering, I could somewhat be co-dependent?

I rarely expect a pay-off. But to never do anything that you are not enthusiastic about to me would be somewhat selfish. How do you draw the line and don't become selfish?

[color:"green"]Hi diamond, [/color]


[color:"green"]You and he both could be somewhat codependent. Codependents usually attract each other. They both try to manipulate the other and have similar family backgrounds. This is why they attract each other - the interaction feels familiar.

Dr. Harley doesn't believe in codependency as a lable so much as he believes that anybody who follows his policy of joint agreement (no one should do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other and unless they are enthusiastic about it)

[/color]
[color:"green"]
It is not selfishness - it is self protection. No one feels taken advantage when they POJA because they never reluctantly go along with a partner's desire just to please the partner.

V.[/color]

This may end up being somewhat of just a vent. Nothing has changed in regards to still being dis-engaged. I'm still at a loss, but am just taking one day at a time.

A short discussion was held last night regarding comments he seems to kinda just throw out there without really thinking - such as:
1.You know what you should do with your fence? I think you should place a birdhouse on each post for each year you are here. Me: Really. Good idea.
2. I don't think we'll ever get married. Me: Nope. Probably not.

I have tried to be positive throughout the whole thing...but when you are constantly hearing negative comments, suggestions, you tend to start leaning that way also. I asked him to again please explain the dis-engagement...he said that he just wanted to make sure that I was the one...hello? Asked him if he wanted to date others....no. Am I the one? Yes. What's any different than before? well, he jumped from one relationship to another...still does not make sense to me...

keeps bringing up that I chose to move out...yes - but my son wanted to live with me and I jumped at the chance...wouldn't he put his children first? Yes.

At the beginning of this thread I had mentioned 2 issues of why I was not ready to marry:
1. My son
2. His house he shared with his X

I came across an interesting book that I received in the mail from Amazon yesterday - entitled: Ex-lives & Ex-wives. There is a chapter in there that talks about this very issue (living in x-wife's home). I am not crazy. I have every right to feel the way I do. And, this is the biggie: No matter what kind of re-decorating that you do...no matter if you add on...no matter if you demolish most and rebuild it will still be "hers"...if you feel that this is not your home...DO NOT MOVE INTO IT! Yikes.

So, now I am wondering...do I go back to this issue with him and let him know that I will not/do not intend to move into that house? I sometimes think that by dis-engaging us in the first place, that he caused me to take multiple steps backwards, as I was doing my best to get to the point of making that move...but now feel that it is impossible.

The hardest part is that I love this man with all my heart...we are extremely compatible - but it may not be fair to him or me for that matter as to how I am feeling now (again) about the house issue.

Any comments, suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks for "listening".

Why not move on then? Unless of course you just want to date all your life, which does not seem to be the case.

AGG

AGG,
I was being sarcastic back at him. I'm getting tired of hearing all the negatives. I honestly can't picture my life without him. Yes, I want to be married.

We have the chemistry that a few people here on another thread are talking about...we haven't lost it...We lived together for a year and have been "together" a total of 3...have known of each other for 6. I don't think that it's so easy to find someone who fullfills all your needs as we seem to do for each other...we've just reached a roadblock of sorts and I'm not sure how to deal with it.

Perhaps you were being sarcastic, but since you do want to be married, and he tells you that you two will probably never be married, why are you still dating him?

AGG

Agg,
I feel that I had legit reasons for not being able to set a date. I had every intention of marrying him...He's the one who took away the engagement...not that it matters. His comments are negative and sarcastic in the sense that he's not sure it's ever going to happen...because of my circumstances/feelings.

I feel that he gave up on us and couldn't wait for my circumstances to change...this would be the only area thus far that I see a problem with...it has happened on another instance.

I love him - that is why I am still with him. He's everything that I want in a mate...

You had every intention of marrying him IF he moved or sold his house, right?


I think he did that because he saw that you were not going to marry him unless he moved or sold his house, which he did not want to do.


So what's the problem then? And I am not being obstreperous, I am asking seriously. Or, do you really mean that you love him, and he's everything you want in a mate if only he did certain things for you that he does not seem to want to do? Two different things, aren't they?

AGG

I think he did that because he saw that you were not going to marry him unless he moved or sold his house, which he did not want to do.


So what's the problem then? And I am not being obstreperous, I am asking seriously. Or, do you really mean that you love him, and he's everything you want in a mate if only he did certain things for you that he does not seem to want to do? Two different things, aren't they?

AGG [/quote]

I will love him regardless of what choices/non choices/decisions he makes or doesn't make...I will continue to love him if we are no longer an item...I only wanted him to help me through my/our issues...

I have not, nor will I, demand that he sell his house. He's entitled to his choices/reasons just as I. I just wanted to figure things out together thats all. We were working on redoing walls and such...discussed what could be changed, what outside features/changes we could make, etc. when all this came about...that's what has stumped me...I was gradually coming around...it was just maybe taking too long...but I had no control over my son living with me...or how I felt about his house...

Maybe that's part of the problem. If he knows that you are offering him unconditional and eternal love regardless of what he does, what motivation does he have to do anything other than what makes him and only him happy?


Did you ask him about what drove him to the sudden "unengagement"? What were his responses?

Something does not seem healthy about the dynamics of your relationship, and I am still trying to understand what that is, which is why I am asking these questions...

AGG

Agg,
I'm glad that you are taking the time out to help. I appreciate the questions!

According to him, the engagement was lasting too long...but to me that doesn't make sense...Yes, there were/are issues to work around...but do you dis-engage and continue to date with marriage still on the agenda? Doesn't make sense to me. Not sure if he is sharing all. I have a feeling that he was confiding in someone in his family and that is what they suggested. Don't know for sure...only suspect.

I had some really unexpected good news today...increase in insurance, etc. Shared with him regarding this and his comment was: So, why aren't we married...you know that would really help me out...Now, I feel that he only wants to marry to benefit him financially...which he stated was not the case...but again...dis-engage...only to still want to marry...

Let him know you think there is something he's not telling you. Even if he's unable to articulate it maybe if you sit down with the intention of getting ALL out on the table he will be able to shed some light.

It sounds like both of you are dancing around the real issues. Perhaps neither one of you wants to put things on the table because decisions will need to be made that both of you don't want to have to make.

His comment about insurance is a back handed, unhelpful & unclear way of saying something. What is that something?

Thanks Nams...
I will try to bring it up this weekend, as he does not have his children.

I really don't feel like I've been dancing around the issues...I've told him what my issues are...I just wanted his understanding and help - and patience. He seems to want things fixed overnight and that's not gonna happen...but, I feel he gave up and is not very helpful.

There was a situation that arose regarding my son back in 2004...My son could no longer live with his father...that is when I was searching for answers. I was a basket case for a few days...not really knowing how I should handle the situation. BF made the comment: I know what you should do...I was so wanting his help...I was all ears - not expecting what the next thing out of his mouth was...
He proceeded to say: I think you should get on your hands and knees and crawl back to your xhusband. WOW. Was I shocked. I don't hold that comment against him...I won't ever forget it...but you see, this is where I needed support and understanding...and it was not there. Not sure if it is there in this situation either.

His children/my children will not be around forever. I just don't want to feel guilty for the choices I have made. I don't. I made the decision to move out and provide a home for my son - regardless of how many months/years that would entail. I did not request his help in finding a house, or anything. I just did it.

He did help me move - but again, I don't feel that there was any support...only that I was leaving him.

Diamonds,

I’ve just read through this thread, and I’m afraid I have a more negative interpretation of his actions than what others have posted to you. I realize this may be an unpopular perspective, but it looks suspiciously to me as if he is sifting through a list of strategies to get you to do what he wants. When one doesn’t work, he moves on to another one. His goal is to get his way: You marry him and live in his house. So far, he has tried the following tactics to obstruct compromise and get his way:

1. accuse you of being selfish
2. promoted his own efforts to get the house (“he has worked too hard for the home that he has” to consider moving to a new one in the same neighborhood – by the way, that hard work is all a sunk cost and not relevant)
3. offer to remodel
4. set a deadline for you to come around to his side
5. break the engagement

You also posted a few things that indicate to me that you want to build a new life together, while he wants to install you into his life, then carry on – with little to no change necessary on his part. Here are two items that made me think that:

1. She [his ex-wife] has wallpapered just about every room and wall. Her name is in the concrete. They added on back in 2001 - all the landscaping is done...These are things I wanted to do with him - but find he looks at it as already done and money spent.

2. He wants you to pick up the kids from their mother’s house.

I’m very sorry to say this, but from your reports, I see no interest on his part in seeing your perspective in anything.

And the anxiety to get the marriage over and done with? Regardless of the feelings of your son or even of his own children? It makes me wonder why he’s so anxious. My shot in the dark guess is that he’s tired of being on “boyfriend behavior” (nice, courteous, having conversations, doing fun things together, etc.) and wants to get back to “husband behavior” (self-involved, withdraw from most domestic and family issues because there’s a wife, etc.) Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t consider that good “husband behavior.” But we’ve all read on these boards about the “bait-and-switch,” where the partner is one way during a brief courtship and reverts to their “real selves” once they’re married. I wonder if he’s pushing you to get married because he wants to revert to his real self.

I’m terribly sorry about these negative observations. You are obviously the better judge of the situation. Please disregard everything I’ve said if it doesn’t apply.

Curious,
After reading your observations, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. As much as I don't like to hear things like this, I do tend to wonder if what you have said is fairly accurate.

I feel that if we had stayed engaged, I would've been closer to setting a date...but have now lost so many forward steps, that I'm not sure if I could honestly set one. I am really beginning to wonder if marriage is in my future.

I appreciate your insight and have found it to be extremely helpful!

Curious, I think this is exactly the case. I tried to convey the same point, perhaps less effectively, when I said this to Diamonds:


Now, I said this even before the additional revelations about the insurance money, and that horrifying comment about crawling back on her hands and knees to her XH. This does not seem at all like a healthy relationship to me, and marriage will not make it any healthier.

AGG

The dis-engagement is probably a favor to you, even though it doesn't feel like it. Its going to give you time to think about what you really want.

I also think he probably received poor advice that this was the thing to do to get you to move.

Diamond,

I agree with the other's and I mentioned the questionable behavior too on your other thread.From what you say,there are negative things going on that perhaps you don't see as red flags like other's might,being outside the relationship.Of course you can always do whatever you want with the opinions you get here but sometimes an objective POV can open your eyes to what you might not see yourself.

I said to you before how "disengaging" was like a punishment for not doing what your fiance wanted and how do you re-engage after something like that? Instead of support,you get threats.Now reading that last comment he made about crawling back to the ex,I was a bit stunned.Doesn't that strike you are very inconsiderate and not loving behavior? When you needed support he tosses that line at you? Do you think things will be different after marriage? What is your GUT telling you?

It still seems to me that the hurdles you both are facing could possibly be overcome( maybe with counseling?) IF he were more understanding toward you and your son.If he truly loves you and is not is some rush to get the marriage certificate then he should be able to wait until your son is secure and out of the home and on his own more.But instead it's about his timetable.All of this is not to say that he is some mean horrible man.But it's these little things that crop up that many people refuse to acknowledge and that invariably plague a marriage or relationship in the future.* It's coming up now so you can decide how to handle it before you actually get married.It's a gift actually,to see how this man is responding to certain situations.I would not be too enthused myself.

And if I might suggest,stop thinking about marriage and dates.What the focus needs to be on is his behavior toward you now and what that means.