I'm rapidly remembering why I always hated dating in the first place. It's the uncertainty of it all. I'm a fairly straightforward person. I like knowing exactly where I stand, where I'm going, and what's going on. So the dating thing - at least the beginning parts - never was very fun to me. I like things being settled.

So, what's the situation that has me in this state? Well, here's a brief update. I have been seeing someone since my divorce, for a little over a year and a half now. But it has been very casual - he made it clear from the beginning that he did not want a serious relationship. Also, he is not a Christian, and had no interest in going to church with me, which is important to me, so it wouldn't have worked from that perspective either. It has been very nice - someone who really liked me, thought I was very attractive, but no pressure or anything. And I wasn't ready for anything serious yet anyway. He knew that eventually I would probably want to get serious with someone again, I'm just more that type, and that we would just remain friends. I ended up kind of backing things off with him finally, because I am at that point - ready to be more serious again.

So, recently, one of the guys at church and I have started hanging around together a lot more. I've actually been interested for several months now, but thought he wouldn't be interested in me. But over the past month or so, he has seemed to show some interest back.

And just to give a little background - I go to a Christian Church, which is a non-denominational church. If you don't know anything about it, well, we do tend to be pretty conservative, and so the guys who are really good Christian members of the church (and this guy is), especially if they grew up in the church (and this guy did), can be a bit.... socially backwards when it comes to women sometimes. And dating. Things can move pretty slowly in these areas. Or... well, I don't know if slowly is the right word, but... well, I'll finish explaining, and see if anyone can tell me what they think....

Anyway, in the process of us hanging around, we ended up spending a couple of times after church or bible study where we sat and talked for quite a while, just the two of us. During those talks, we were talking about the singles group (he heads up our singles ministry), and dating, and how it can be hard to find someone to date in our church. On two different occasions he talked about how people had tried to fix him up with one of the women in our singles group, but that he wasn't interested in her, and that he wasn't seeing anyone. He finally asked if I was seeing anyone, so I told him about the guy I've been seeing, but that it was definitely just a just friends thing, because I only want to date someone seriously if they are from our church. He went on to say that he was thinking since we have such similar backgrounds, personalities, senses of humor, and we get along so well, it might be nice for us to go out as friends. Ok, not quite what I was hoping for there, but I said "I'd like that."

Since then? Well, we have gone out to the movie once - I asked him. Other than that, it's all been church activities. But... we are both at every church activity the other is at, and from the time we both get there, we tend to be together the whole time. We sit together, we hang out together, even when we are walking around talking to people after services and such, we tend to bounce around a little and come back to each other.... usually he comes back over and finds me. Having grown up in the church myself, I wasn't really planning on any dating we do being done in front of the whole church, because that's just asking for trouble, but we are both very active in the church, I'm up front in the band every week, and so pretty much everyone knows both of us pretty well. It appears that it's going to be in front of everyone whether I want it to be or not. Already I've been noticing looks and comments from people... last Sunday he and I were getting lunch after service, and I had to wait for him because he needed to talk to someone first, so it became obvious to the few people that were left that we were going out for lunch afterwards, and some of the older ladies there were commenting on me going out with him. He heard them too, and wasn't correcting them, didn't try to tell them we are just friends or anything.

Sigh....this all sounds so high school or something, doesn't it?

And yet... a couple of times, he has made comments about how he and I are at the age where we are ready to find the person we want to spend the rest of our lives with... and talking about marriage and how we feel about it and our beliefs about it.

But he is awkward when he gives me a hug goodbye, and it seems his way of showing affection is teasing and picking on me! (See what I mean about high school - or should that be junior high?)

I'd probably hang it up if he weren't one of the most giving, caring men I've ever met. He's always up and doing something for someone else, always looking for a way to serve in the church, help some of the older widows in the church, things like that.

So is he just really socially inept, or am I reading too much into things here, and he really does just want to be friends and that's it? Who's the clueless one here???? Or do I just need to be more patient maybe? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

From the little I know, not knowing him or you, I'd say be prepared to take the lead in lots of situations. Sounds like his social skills stopped developing at an early age. Maybe just as puberty hit.

Has he been married? Had a significant relationship?

This taking the lead would also extend to sex should you two go down that road married or not. Is that something you want to have to do? Teach this man how to physically be with a woman?

Maybe I have it all wrong & my scenario is a worst case situation but it's what came to my mind. You may not want to read this next part so skip ahead. I dated a man/boy in college who had no social skills & very little awareness of intimacy. He was a premature ejaculator & that was a HUGE issue.

These were my exact questions as well - has he dated enough to know what he is doing, or is this all new to him? I would be hesitant to date someone who has reached their 30's or 40's without having been in serious relationships. This is one of those areas where lack of life experiences is not a good thing.

AGG

The same thinking here...



For years?
My experience with people helping a lot the other people is... they usually keep helping them and neglect helping their own families... i.e. it's hard for them to change priorities...
Also, some of those are immature... helping different people gives them feelings of changes, for they are not capable of settling down... this way they help when they want, and not always as it'd be in marriage...

Btw, do you have a patience of a teacher?


Hm... if you are sensual... this won't work in the long run...

Unless he does that because he feels you just as a friend!?


So, what's preventing you to ask him about all of this?

Actually, osxgirl, in your case there might very well be an easy way to figure this out.

Ask him.

It seems to me that the overheard talk from the "older ladies" is a perfect "in" for bringing the subject up. Obviously, the amount of time you spend together at church is creating an impression in other people's minds that something is going on, and the two of you really ought to figure out what you're going to do about it. If you just want to be friends, maybe you shouldn't be sitting together all the time. After all, if the two of you are seen as an "item" it could easily get in the way of other "dating" prospects. Or, if there is an interest in something more, maybe you should talk out what that means.

Hmm. Given the culture he seems to be from, and which he is apparently now in, I don't see this in the cautionary light others see it.

I remember the first time my now ex-wife tried to give me a hug, and her laughing about how stiff I was. I simply didn't know how to hug, since it wasn't part of my cultural background.

Today, I interact with women in a friendly way, which includes teasing when I know that they are the sort of person to appreciate that. (Teasing was part of my family heritage, and in some relationships it is a valid way of conveying friendly familiarity while staying "safe" from romance.) I have no doubts whatsoever about my romantic capacity, which I don't think would give any woman cause to complain, but I do not choose to show this side of myself outside of a serious relationship. That's because I believe in the friendship-first approach.

This I have to think about. My ex-wife was also a very giving person, but I felt a lot of the time that I didn't make it very high on her priority list. I'm not going to speculate why here.

But on the other hand, one of the joys I have found in singleness is the freedom to jump in and help when I see a need. I have no higher responsibilities to hold me back.

But when I was married, there was never any question that my wife was my first priority.

So I think it depends on the person.

I understand.
OF COURSE it depends on the person, GDP.
As our POW on our experiences...
(No generalization is correct... and that's why I said it's MY experience...)

osx~~
I agree with Nams, who says, you may need to take the lead.
If you are okay with that, I'd say it's quite possible you could enjoy this relationship!
Good Luck! K.



That's quite alright Gnome, I would describe myself much the same.
And for what it worth, I think friendship-first is a very positive approach.

Karona

What was he like on your date to the movies?

I agree w/ Gnome. Time for a discussion. This just might be his M.O.

What you described does sound a bit immature, so I think it's important that you find out his relationship history.

Hugs
DW

Give him a copy of "No More Christian Nice Guy".

Why are you limiting yourself to men at your church? I can understand not wanting to date non-Christian men if your faith is very important to you. But, why limit yourself to one church?

Whew, ok lots of things to respond to here, so I'll try to get to everything. If I miss something, sorry!

First, no, he hasn't been married before. As far as a previous significant relationship... I'm not sure. He's discussed having dated some, but never talked about anyone in particular, so I don't really know if there have been any serious relationships in his background. I would agree that could be of some concern - again, at the very least, another area where I'd want to know some background.

It's just so hard to say.... we do tend to be very... maybe the word here would be circumspect?.... about relationships in the church, and so what I'm seeing could be that he's socially backward, or that he's just VERY reserved when starting a relationship, or that he's putting out mixed signals here when all he really wants is friendship.

And I do agree with all of you that what is really needed here is to talk with him. I know that. We are just both very busy people, and I haven't been able to get a chance for the two of us to have some time alone so I can do that yet. My frustration is getting the better of me, and I guess talking it out with all of you here is my substitute until I can get things talked out with him. Plus, getting some other perspectives on it all before I talk to him isn't too bad an idea either.

B2M - the warning note about helping others so much is noted, though I do think he leans more towards GDP's view of it. He's single, so he has the freedom to help out wherever and whenever. But definitely something to keep in mind all the same.

As far as taking the lead...I don't think I mind, it's just... I don't want to act like an idiot here either. Like I said, I think the signals I'm getting now are mixed, and taking the lead is great.... until we get a couple weeks down the road and he asks what I'm doing, because we ARE just friends, you know. Yes, I know.... that requires the talking to him.... working on that, as soon as I can get a time for the two of us alone.

See GDP gives me hope that maybe it isn't immaturity, it's just reservedness.. which I could very well believe. Growing up in this particular type of church definitely does lend itself to that. (And even the teasing - I have to admit, he and I both do a lot of it, so....)

And I'm definitely all for the friendship first approach myself. Most of the relationships I've had started out as friends first, and they always worked better that way. It's just the confusion part I'm not happy with. In some ways, it's just friends, in others, it's like we're an established couple already. And now I'm finding myself sitting home on weekends because, well, am I dating here or not? Other than church functions, or sometimes hanging out after the church functions, we aren't really going out, unless I ask him. So I guess I should go ahead and go out with other people on the weekends.... unless of course that would end up messing things up with him? I know....back to the needing to talk.

And I knew all along talking to him was the real answer.... but hearing some opinions on all this is still good. It's been a long time since I've had to do this "dating stuff." I'd forgotten what a pain it can be.

Oh - as far as how he was on the date to the movies.... pretty much the same as he is the rest of the time. Friendly and fun to be with. Nothing beyond that - but I guess due to the way we are about things in our church and how slowly we do take it, I wouldn't really expect him to try and hold hands or anything yet. It's just that there's not much follow-up. He talks about going out as friends, and then..... nothing. Anytime I've come up with something to do, he's accepted, but it has all come from me. Even though he's the one who initiated the dating/going out as friends/what we're looking for talks.

See what I mean.... confusion. Sigh.

Finally, Justin, you ask why I'm limiting myself to men from my church. Well, when I say my church, I'm not necessarily limiting it to my particular congregation per se, but to the type of church I go to (though where I live, that's ALMOST the same thing...back in the midwest, where I'm from originally, you can't throw a rock without hitting a Christian Church or a Church of Christ.) I am very involved in my church, grew up in the church, and though I haven't always been as good a Christian as I should have been, I have been trying very hard recently to get back to my beliefs more and more. I've dated (and in one case married) a whole range within and without the church. Most were affiliated with some church. And in the end, I'm coming to realize that, at least for me, I want someone else who is strong in their faith. The problem is, if that faith is in a different type of church, we're going to have some major conflicts, because I'm not going to want to change, and any man that has a strong faith in his church isn't going to want to change either. If I'm looking for a serious relationship, then, someone outside of the Christian Church/Church of Christ probably isn't a very good idea for me. And believe me, I do realize how severely that ends up restricting me. That fact was always a major part of my rationale for looking outside of my church before this. I'm just finally realizing that that's something that's not going to work well for me. And it's not an easy decision to make.

OSXGirl, What bothers me here is that most of your 'dates' are relatied to church activities. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problems with people who center their lives around God and their church. But, there is far more to the world that the limited confines of a church. God made the ENTIRE world, not just church property.

I am wondering why he can't stretch his wings a bit more and come up with things for you two to do that aren't church related. Hikes in the forest, attend the County fair, skiing, checking out an art or history museum, and so on. As far as I know Jesus didn't spend his entire life in the Temple with only the believers. He was out in the world working, hanging out, attending parties, traveling and so on.

He sounds like he may have bought into the Christian Nice Guy myth. Maybe he should read that book I recommended. Just a thought.

Another thought.

What would happen if you simply stopped seeing him except for running into him at church? I mean don't suggest doing antyhing together, don't make a point of hanging with him at church functions, etc.

What would his reaction be? Might he decide he needs to pursue you a bit?