Practical advice is always good. Unfortunately we (previously) never practiced 'safe sex'; foolishly I trusted her completely. We both had recent (4 months ago) negative test for STDs as part of a then-ongoing adoption. Of course I plan to get retested in a few months. I think SF is one of her emotional needs and as part of practicing Plan A I offered to resume this part of our marriage about a month ago after a 6-week break (initiated on my part) when I learned of the infidelity. Until I have any reason to believe otherwise I assume the worst (e.g., HIV+) and hope for the best.

WW still contacts all three men at varying frequencies. My
ability to know completely about this is naturally
limited. I don't know of any actual face-to-face contact
recently and possibly there has been none for several
weeks. Nonetheless, I think this is due to circumstances
such as distance and opportunity.


My wife underwent a gastric bypass surgery for weight loss
(losing ~100 pounds from about 280) about a year before we
met. Since we married I have felt that she was overly
interested in clothes; but there has been a big change in
the last six months where she is consumed by looks and
appearance.


Thanks. I know this, but it is good to hear it from others!


I worry that I may be controlling, but I'm not yet convinced
about this. There's a book on the subject by J. Keith
Miller that I might read and hope to better understand if
this is a factor for me. I think some of it is
misunderstanding. What I would call a desire to be
financially responsbile and to not waste money, my WW may
perceive as financial control. And I think I quite naturally
want to limit/end any ongoing relationship she has with any
man. She claims she just has male friendships. I've learned
better.


I meant infidelity or intimacy. I get confused by some of
the acronyms here, sorry.


I'm still hoping to kill the communication (and contact),
but if she wants to do it she will. I can't watch her 24/7
and she'll have to change from within, if we are to have any
hope. I can only do what is my share, and that I'm sure I
can be doing better. The waiting (for her to respond)
kills me.

I can empathasize. Been there; see my sig line. Here's some reason for optimism: I think my own WW's affairs are done now. Hard to say why I think that; it's mostly just a feeling I have. My WW seems to have had a change of heart and decided to return to monogamous married life.

Maybe I'll share some thoughts here on our experiences, in hopes they are helpful to you.

Why did the A's happen? Not really sure. Like yours, my WW says I've been controlling (I agree), also that was a contributing cause of her affairs. I understand and partly agree. I think I left the A-door open - like lots of BS here - by being neglectful of her needs. But she chose to walk through the A-door.

My WW has self-image problems; like yours, she also dropped significant weight. She feels deprived of her college experience, since she was overweight and didn't date much when she was in college. Also, after 9 years as a stay at home mom, she returned to work and I think that contributed to her starting to feel her oats. Even though she's now 45yo, she seems to have been trying to make up for some unmet needs by living a 'soccer moms gone wild' lifestyle for much of last year.

In our case those unmet needs weren't sexual. SF has always been good for us. Sometimes just adequate, but mostly good. I'm wondering about your case, has SF been an unmet need of your wife's? Or yours for that matter?


Why did the A's stop? (I truly hope!) Again I"m not completely sure. Partly they seem to have just wound down, and partly I think she realized she hadn't been conducting herself according to her values and standards. And realized that D was imminent if the As continued - although she considered it for some time, neither she nor I wants to divorce.

Also, we've gone to two simultaneous MC for months now. I think those helped. More than that, I followed the terrific advice from generous and caring MB posters. I showed her I love her, I eliminated LBs (with some really disappointing exceptions for which I hate myself), and I focussed on meeting her needs.

She still seems remote, which worries me. But I like the trajectory. Things SEEM to be going in the right direction, and we now have a chance to recover. If we are willing to do the work.


I hope you find some of this useful. My main message is: Don't give up! I'm here to tell you that THINGS CAN CHANGE! Trust in God, with his help your marriage can succeed.

Post deleted by Aphelion

wg:

I'd like 2 go back 2 your comment about happiness. I think it SHOULD be your primary goal.

But I don't mean self-gratification crap that most might interpret the persuit of happiness 2 mean. I mean Happiness, with a capital aitch.

If you're happy, I mean truly happy (with yourself, your integrity, morality, life-choices), then your loved ones will absorb some of that and maybe just become happy themselves.

I think prioritizing your W's happiness ahead of your own is like putting the cart before the horse. Some forms of self-sacrifice aren't healthy.

So put yours truly first, then you'll be better able 2 help those around you find their brand of happiness.

And realize that helping others is more efficaceous if you give them what they need, which may not be what they think they want.

-ol' 2long

Thanks Weneedhelp (and everyone else) for your
encouragement. I wish you the best with your WW and M. I
appreciate your sharing your experience here; I find it
helpful to learn of similiar stories. It helps me feel more
normal, reminds me that the A itself is not *my* fault
(though I played a part in weakening our M), and helps me
understand my WS.

You said: "My WW has self-image problems; like yours, she
also dropped significant weight. She feels deprived of her
college experience, since she was overweight and didn't date
much when she was in college. ... by living a 'soccer moms
gone wild' lifestyle for much of last year."

Lot of similarities here. It seems to me that my WS is also
trying to relive a life that she feels she has missed out
on. She's suddenly interested in nightclubs and has talked
about opportunities she has missed out on such as an
exciting job with lots of travel when she was young due to
her surprise pregnancy in her early twenties (in an affair
with a married man). She also never dated much.

[Its amazing to me how open I've become in talking about my
M with strangers. Its somewhat humiliating to talk about
SF...]

You asked about SF in our marriage. I think SF is an
important need for my WW and its not unimportant to me! I
did do something foolish which left us vulnerable here. My
WS worked a night shift 2-3 nights a week. This kept our
schedules/rythyms at odds. Over the past year I re-developed
a bad habit from my bachelor days -- I would fall asleep
downstairs in the living room in front of the television
set. At first I mainly did this when my wife worked nights
and was gone; later it became a habit such that I would fall
asleep on the couch 40% of the time, even when my wife was
home. In hindsight the stupidity of this is pretty clear to
me. It crimped our SF some (there were undoubtably nights
where she wanted affection and SF from me and I was out
unconscious). And it made her feel undesirable because I
wouldn't come to bed. Granted, one would think she might
have been able to help me wake up and come to bed, but she
claims that she was unable to accomplish this and that I
would be rude or totally unresponsive (I don't know, I was
asleep). She told me that this habit was hurting her and I
didn't listen enough. Now, after the fact, I realize the pain
it brought her and its become a thing of the past.

Other than the above, I've generally thought that SF was
good in our marriage for us both. I may have been a bit
more selfish in the months prior to the A, but it was
still a regular part of our lives and it seemed that
she got a lot out of.

You also mention the benefits counseling has had for you
all. So far I have one failed negative counseling
attempt. We met with a therapist three times; I was a bit
confrontational about the A and my WS denied everything. My
WS took a statement I made in a session and repeated it
to/in-front-of her family and our teenage daughter. I
suggested she see someone about a possible sex addiction --
that really did get her riled up. The therapist (who was
extremely passive) told us she didn't think she could help
us at this point in time. So we stopped and I don't think
it will be easy to convince my wife to try again.

- WG

[Edited to add: I relate to the nightclubbing. WW also started showing an avid interest in music. Hold onto your seat, this is absolutely true. A couple of months ago WW started playing remorseful songs. Eliza Gilkyson's got a few of those. My favorite lyrics ..'Oh my God I'm the one I abhor'. Those kinds of songs told me she had realized what she had done, and was finished with her As.]

I relate to the couch-sleeping. Some similarities here. I would stay up an hour or two after my W when to bed, then come up after she was asleep. As you know; big mistake. In the book "20 Surprisingly Simple Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage" Rule #15 is to go to bed at the same time. Lots of other good stuff there too, you may want to pick it up.

I believe it helped my WW to know that I was deeply interested in saving our M, and willing to spend hours studying all of MB books and about a dozen others as well. And I believe it helped that I repeatedly took responsibility and showed remorse for my past errors and flaws.

Too bad about the 1st counselor, but it sometimes goes that way. Doesn't mean she won't try again, and it certainly doesn't mean that counseling won't work. Try a new counselor perhaps? Sounds like it would require you to build a strong loving case for her to see the benefits and agree to go to MC again. But you might get a nice surprise if you ask. Our counselor gets lots of referrals via 'Focus on the Family'; possibly they could recommend one in your area?

More broadly, what kind of arguments do you think could help your W take you up on the offer? Just putting on my thinking hat here: Maybe recommendation from your pastor? Possibly your daughter's teacher would recommend counseling? Somebody else..? If your WW cares at all about MB, possibly you and she could try MB counseling?

In my experience, it makes a ton of difference being in the presence of a counselor. Not sure why, but it's true for us. Probably a pastor could serve the same role as convenor and mediator for your discussions with WW. Or maybe a trusted relative? Obviously any talk you have with her, whether in or out of MC context, needs to be kind and loving.

I believe in Plan A. Big time. If you make yourself appealing to her and meet her needs, and demonstrate through actions that you love her more than anything, it will improve your chances. At some point she may realize that what she is seeking can be found at home, and much better than anywhere else.

It may sound harsh but I agree with worthatry and Gimble.

Can u really ever trust her again?
Does she have other qualities worth the effort of all that u will have to go through to recover?.......if that is at all possible. How willing is she - in ACTIONS, not words!

I think I both agree and disagree with you ;-). The MB policy on joint agreement (in recovery) would support that we should both enthusiastically agree about things. And I'm not so unselfish. A trivial example: how my spouse dresses does matter some to me - some clothes I like, some I don't. Should I always see her in clothes that I don't find flattering? No.

Yet, it is possible that our M can heal, but I will still face a lot of unhappiness that is structural and is unlikely to be fixed or healed. WW has problems spending money - this isn't going to change anytime soon. In discovering the A I discovered FI (financial infidelity) - thousands of dollars in hidden debt. Worse, I can't now see adopting children and growing our family (as planned from courtship on) due to the instability in my WW's personality and in our M. I can't see it ever, but possibly that is too permanent. I will be unhappy about that (or even waiting 5+ years); we were months away from an adoption.

But I took an oath before her, God, the state, our families, and our community to marry her for better or worse. Now she has broken our marriage covenant. But if she is willing to do her part to heal our M, should I be willing to subordinate my pain for the good of our M? Truthfully, I can't believe she will be happy apart from me - I really did 'rescue' her from a lot of problems. Yet I chose to marry her.

There are benign situations that would leave me with the same 'childless' pain; say she had a dehibilitating physical ailment with a 20-year life expectancy. I wouldn't adopt in that case and I would be unhappy, but I wouldn't leave her because of an illness like that.

- WG