I'm trying to implement a good Plan A with my WW, who is
involved with several OM. I found out about the affairs
two months ago and confronted my wife. After about a month
I started Plan A and she did admit to one of the affairs,
but lied about important details. I understand that it is
important not to upset my WW unnecessarily during Plan A.
My question is how to deal with WW's lies, plans to see
an OM, and continued contact? WW understands that I want
the full truth and no-contact.

Should I confront my WS about:
* each instance of these,
* none of these,
* some of these,
Or, what principle should guide my re/action?

To give some concrete examples:
(1) I showed WW her own cell phone and the entries that had her
communicating with OM#1, contradicting her claims of NC.

(2) She planned to attend a meeting in a volunteer organization
today in which OM#2 would be present. I confronted yesterday
and told her how painful it would be for me if she continued
in this organization where she would have contact with OM#1
and OM#2.

(3) When she tells me there is only one OP, I usually tell
her that I know this is not true and that there are multiple
OM. This makes her very upset and she vehemently denies it.
She admitted to OM#1, knowing I had seen them together;
she denies the others, not know that I really *know*. I
do not reveal my sources as I don't want to lose the ability
to confirm her truthfullness/dishonesty. On the other hand
my ability to confront with a strong 'case' is limited by
my not disclosing how I know what I know.

My confronting her leads her to be very depressed and upset
and at the point of moving out. She was upset enough last night
to slap me and spit in my face. Not confronting her at all
seems to me to suffer silently and eat my heart out every day/time.

I appreciate any advice from knowledgeable Plan A'ers.

- WG

----------
BS (me) - 38 - neglected her, failed to cherish and admire
WW - 36 - horrible self-esteem, body image, has no friends
Married 3 years; one daughter, 13, (hers from out-of-wedlock affair with married man; mine via adoption).

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=


Have you exposed?

WG,

I am so sorry you are in this situation and glad you're here on MB. I've your other posts. Moveforward's link to The Carrot and The Stick of Plan A is important to know. Listen to moveforward...always solid advice.

I'm posting because of the slap and the spit. Has she been physically abusive before? May I ask why you didn't call the police and file a report?

I see WS's as in a true fog. Exposure is letting the consequences of an A heap freely on the head of the WS. My belief is that the reality can't get in if we spare the consequences. The slap has a consequence...a natural one of your pain. You need to impose the logical legal consequence, as well, so that reality has an opportunity to come into the fog. My opinion.

Seems counter to Plan A? Read more about it. You are fixing yourself, not making yourself into a doormat. You have boundaries and consequences to violating those boundaries. Luckily, this personal boundary is one recognized by the law and shared as a violation by many. Being slapped and spit on is not acceptable.

LA

Yes, I exposed. I may not have done it as maximally effectively as possible. I exposed serially to WW's family and my family. All of the OM are to my knowledge single (they don't wear rings, initial public records searches indicate not, and WW claimed that two of the OM were married and had kids (here she lied trying to dismiss an A with them as unlikely because they had family)). Being single, there are no OM's wives to expose. I did not reveal my documented evidence of the A as this would reveal and cut off my sources of information; I'm not sure whether its worth informing my wife's former employer (she just quit, but one OM was a co-worker), or the leaders of her volunteer organization where she came into contact with two OM. I don't have any reason to believe they would believe or support me or pressure my WW to end the affairs. However, WW has been a little upset about my telling family and my/our friends; perhaps there has been some positive effect.

I have not yet contacted the OM. Some of them she has lied to, for example, telling them that I physically abuse her (false), or that we are separated (false). Do you think there is any payoff in trying to communicate with them?

My WW's family believes she had the A, but believe some of the lies and revisionist history about me. They actually appear far more interested in our daughter's well-being than my WW's. When the A broke, I found out that my WW never told them I adopted our daughter. They support my WS and suggest she leave me.

- WG

I've read the article, but wasn't sure I understood all the philosophy of the 'stick' (hence my post). I understand that they ought to face consequences, but here's another example.
I almost had to decide whether or not I would take our daughter to a dance class while WW intended to go to a meeting at which an OM would be present. I was free to drive my daughter. WW cancelled her plans after our confrontation, but what should I have done if she had gone. I would probably have taken our daughter, why should she suffer. If I had an obligation, such as working, then it would have seemed like a fair consequence (not that I want my daughter to lose out, but I can't protect her from everything her mother does).

Mildly. Slapping and pushing (3-4 incidents); throwing a pitcher of water (the liquid, not the container); throwing glasses 'near' but not 'at' me; and lots of raising her voice. We live in a townhouse and the wall's aren't that thick. It's her voice that is raised, but who's going to believe that I'm the innocent party?

I considered it briefly and didn't. It seemed a little too minor and there would be little supporting evidence (i.e., no blood). I don't want her per se to end up in jail or out of the house, but I do want the affairs to end.

I have always been able to control my temper in such situations, so far, thank the Lord. I worry that nobody would take something like a 'slap' as serious.

Last night she also threw a pitcher's worth of iced tea at me while I was working in the kitchen. I ended up cleaning up the mess myself, but perhaps I should have left it for her to do.

Thanks for your input.

- WG

WG,

"It's her voice that is raised, but who's going to believe that I'm the innocent party?"

"I worry that nobody would take something like a 'slap' as serious."

Am I understanding you to mean that you fear not being believed or are you saying that you don't take her abuse as abuse?

LA

Mostly the former, but somewhat the later (I understand not
everyone would agree). I certainly would be concerned about being believed. WW is a good liar and has experience interacting with law enforcement. I could see contacting the police backfiring for me. WW has lied to co-workers alleging abuse, and may have gone as far as to manufacture reasons to believe that (i.e., passing a wound on her face off as abuse from me). In that sense, she has already put my reputation at some risk.

On the other point, as a man, I just have a hard time calling a 'slap' abuse. There isn't a long history of it. It doesn't hurt for more than a few minutes and not that much. If, heaven forbid, I ever did slap in kind, I wouldn't want to be labelled an abuser. So, no, I really don't view a slap as 'abuse'.

Is it unacceptable? Yes, of course. Does it cross a line (physical harm)? Yes.

I have to be wise and focus on the big things. I am willing to have her experience bad consequences due to the affair. She has quit a job she loves and blames me for that (it removes her from one OM). She will have to eventually give up involvement in an organization where she has contact with two additional OM. I'm sorry it is upsetting to her, but tough luck. She had the A and these consequences I'm quite willing for her to face. Along with shame in front of family and friends, and whatever else has to happen.

Thanks for your input. I really don't feel like an abused husband. If I do have to ever involve law enforcement, I want it to be something that 'sticks'.

- WG

"backfiring for me."

You fear you would be inappropriately charged? You feel that it would be risking yourself?

I can understand that. I can see where an abuser, a smart one, will lay the ground to protect themselves. I would think that shows she knows she's an abuser. Document that. Keep a journal. Helps in many ways, and one is definitely keeping your truth straight.

Adjust your thinking on abuse. Abuse in my book is the distinct lack of respect. Withstanding a slap, which is a child's reaction to pain, is a slap to your self-respect and self-love. You think a slap isn't abusive? Read the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and then try on the slap. You say you believe it is unacceptable and yet you accept it. I hear your fear of being an abuser.

I was an abuser.

I do know about this. Until I educated myself, I couldn't do better. It wasn't a matter of character but of ignorance.

In that book, you will see ways you abuse and are abused. This doesn't make you unusual, I'm sorry to say. It makes you human. You can only control yourself and stop the abuse you do. I think "Lovebusters" as part of that, that book the necessary step further. We can be great humans when we stop being ignorant ones. Our choice.

I was pressing the legal angle so that you could demonstrate your boundaries. I was presumptive and should have asked, what are your boundaries? Tell me all of them. Tell me the code you live by--and your standards for yourself. What you will not do to others or to yourself.

"I have to be wise and focus on the big things."

Have you wondered why no one is answering your very direct requests for advice, that you carefully listed? Did you think they don't have your answers or that they didn't understand your questions?

I side-stepped them and went for what was the big thing, IMO. Your big thing is stopping the affair? What if the consequences of the affair can only be seen when she sees herself as full of choices? What if she won't feel the effect of the affair until she can feel that everything she does, how she allows herself to react, has a consequence?

Maybe you hid consequences from her before the affair? You took it like a man...many things? You're not her father and are not supposed to rear your wife, nor make her your mother. I mention this because it can seem that I'm asking you to do this. There are natural consequences to our actions (and reactions) as well as logical ones others impose. You may have natural consequences in your reactions to her behavior--are they appropriate? Do you react according to your code, or from the gut? Shift your reactions into the logical side...make them your choice as a result of the boundaries you've defined and shared.

It all ties together. What you choose to do is your best way when you don't make it response-based.

I will keep better track of your posts, WG. Don't want to lose you.

LA

LA,

Thanks for taking the time to write back; I appreciate your advice.

WG: "backfiring for me."

LA: "You fear you would be inappropriately charged? You feel that it would be risking yourself?"

Yes, I think the negatives outweight the positives. Or at least that was my quick decision at the time. My WW has several family members working in law-enforcement and she has professional experience in that general area (but, she is not a police officer). Besides a risk of false charges, I would also worry that it would create a 'bureauocratic datum' without all the details, and that could hurt me later (e.g., in a hypothetical divorce proceeding; coping with subsequent false charges; applying for a future job). How would I know that any record wouldn't just say 'domestic dispute' and not that I was assaulted? Also, for another issue, an arrest (perhaps highly unlikely) could impair WW's ability to get/hold a job; this would hurt me as well.

You are right that I don't view the few slapping incidents that have occured as the biggest problem that I have to face. These incidents have only occured since the A crisis came to light and in our discussions about them - I've always been calm and I speak in a reasoned tone, but I can be a bit judgmental and snappy when I'm being lied to directly.

I am more concerned with (1) stopping the As and (2) stopping financial indiscretions. On the later, though I have eliminated joint financial accounts, WW has credit in her own name and has rung-up around $US 6000 of debt in her own name. These were all hidden from me and there may be more I don't know about. If we reconcile, I or she/we will have to pay this off. Now at the moment, WW has quit her job, but is looking for another. This is good in the sense the her job was where she came into contact with one of the OM. Now, I think I need to think much harder about consequences. I'm pretty happy having her have to get a full-time job (she had been working part-time) or whatever it takes to pay off the debt *BY HERSELF*. I didn't conceal information about spending, or order all those gourmet coffees, or buy clothes that weren't needed, or acquire massive amounts of cosmetics and perfume.

[Naturally, I'm also concerned with everyday stressors such as parenting in an adversarial environment, my WWs poor physical and mental health, and keeping the household running]

Being slapped a couple of times is not good. I hope that our M can heal and this is an issue that we can address when WW is out of the fog and has a functioning head on her shoulders. Its not very likely that I'll be dealing with such 'abuse' a year from now. In any event. If we aren't together, it'll stop. If we are together, the As will be over (WW will have to face up to her actions), and I'll make sure it stops. I'm not tolerating As indefinately. Every day is a personal battle to face. I don't "accept" abuse from WW, but my #1 priority is ending the As.

Thanks for your encouragement to make sure I am not preventing her from facing the consequences of her actions. At the moment, I'm not sure what else I can do to make her face up to things, but I'll be thinking about it.

I do now more openly tell her what I'm feeling, even if it is pain due to the A. (She frequently asks me what I'm thinking.) But I'm not sure I'm right in doing that. Is it a LB or is it part of the 'stick' of Plan A? That's the kind of issue that motiviated my original post.

- WG

I understand where you're coming from, so let's see about where you're headed:

"I am more concerned with (1) stopping the As and (2) stopping financial indiscretions. On the later, though I have eliminated joint financial accounts, WW has credit in her own name and has rung-up around $US 6000 of debt in her own name."

Stopping the As...exposure. I don't see what you've done besides family. Expose to the volunteer organization. These men might have girlfriends, fiancees.

I would disconnect the cell phone, but it was my trigger, so maybe not something you want to consider.

I know of a couple of posters exposing to OMs' parents. No kidding. Brainstorm. Maximum stuff here. Don't communicate with OM face to face. You might try calling back OM#1 and simply stating. "I am attempting to save my marriage. We are not seperated nor in the process of a divorce. I believe you are a threat to my marriage. Please do not contact my wife again." I dunno. You are great with words. Make it respectful and firm without threat and then hang up. Don't wait for an answer?

"I don't have any reason to believe they would believe or support me or pressure my WW to end the affairs." Do you have any reason to believe they wouldn't?

That your in-laws support your daughter about leaving you is not unusual, but plain wrong, IMO. That's gotta hurt. They know you. However, makes some sense that they would rather be comfortable than truthful--your wife didn't get into this life without their influence. Any comfort in knowing that affairs are self-destructive acts?

Like the spending? I swear, I pushed the heck out of my H with different stuff and my unspoken goal? "Can you suffer me after I did this?" "How much can you take..the more you take, the more I know you love me." Sick stuff. I didn't do that with spending--that is his addiction. It always went through the roof when he was in pain and wouldn't tell me. I think the message was the same, though, "Can you love me after I did this?" Like love is earned. Same with eating and other stuff. "Still love me, even after I look like this?"

"I need to think much harder about consequences." Are we talking the natural consequences here? Her trashed credit rating? Her shame and guilt...your feelings of stress, worry and fears rising up? Or logical? You aren't to the place that your wife is out of the A, right? Why go to where you're daddy? Do you feel loss of control of your life? Does it help you to jump ahead? Also, do you know your state's laws on marital debt? Could be if she got it in her name and you can prove the purchases weren't marital ones, that it is her debt.

Have you heard of over-responsible and under-responsible couplings? Part of the opposites attract deal. The more you over, the more she unders. Holding her to task won't make her be more responsible, because it is you being overly so. Read up on this because it is very common; part of the reactive marriage. These As are your opportunity to break your patterns. What is your part? What do you have control over? What do you fear? What do you value?

Funny how I thought you were keeping the natural consequences from her...you're not. Respect that she knows what she's doing. Be honest and open with her. "I know you had contact today. I felt the pain fresh again." And let go anything else. No response required. "I am thinking about all that I've been learning about relationships. I'm thinking of how marriage can be far more wonderful than I'd previously imagined."

No LB. Your truth cannot be a lovebuster. By not saying it, you love bust yourself. No sacrificial lambs here, 'k?

The Stick of Plan A is your boundaries. Really looking at what you won't allow others to do you without logical consequences, that you tell them ahead of time. These have to match your standards, too--what you won't permit yourself to do to others (and the consequences are amends); and they have to be what you won't allow you to do to you, either.

When she asks what you're thinking and you tell her. Do you ask her back? Do you do active listening without reaction?

Can you tell me what she was like when you married her?

LA