TD:

I read both your and Crystal's threads and all I can say is that all MB'ers should pray for you both because you are both going to need it. You are a long way from even starting recovery and even when you do it is still a long road to rebuild a marriage.

TD, your actions tonight were inexcusable. I know the pain that you feel and you are experiencing the normal human reaction to expect Crystal to work on your marriage and to begin to meet some of your EN's. Sorry friend, but you are expecting too much. Right now, Crystal doesn't even really have a good handle on who she is and what she wants, much less trying to change who she was to meet your EN's. I and many other BS's have said often that although not fair and counterintuitive, the BS normally carries most of the burden early on in recovery. You have to make a decision on how long that you can carry that burden and what you will do when you can no longer carry it.

I have immense respect for all FWS who have honestly tried to change themselves and become better people and spouses. This includes my own W. But the reality is that at one time, for whatever reason, they felt so entitled to have their needs met that when they were not met in the M, they went outside the M despite all the possible costs. Something in them allowed complete selfishness, rationalization and justification. They can change...but can they change completely? I don't know. My W and I are well into recovery and it has been a long time since the AE even though it has not been that long since D-Day. By my wifes own admission, I now meet more than all of her needs. Sometimes to the point that she feels overwhelmed. Even though she is a far different person than the one who was once a WS, she has to try really hard to meet my needs. There is a part of her that even to this day is allright with the taker in her being the dominant side of her personality.

We are both committed to rebuilding our M. It is better than it ever has been but still not exactly a bed of roses. The good days way outnumber the bad, but the bad still happen. Only last night after the first really big blowout since D-Day did I find out from her that she often feels "pressure" from me. When she feels this pressure, her response is to withdraw even further. I read this into your wife's posts. Combined with her still feeling justified in her behavior, it is not surprising that she is giving very little to the R.

IMHO, if you will back off, not act so needy and work only to show her what type of person you are capable of being without LB's, she may open her LB and let you deposit. Right now, you are putting her in a position of having to chose the lesser of two evils...and she has already indicated that she feels like that given the choice right now, the M may not be the lesser of the two.

I have been married for almost twenty years. Not one time have I ever turned my wife away when she tried to show affection. It was always me, not her that initiated SF. After our issues came to a head over the last several days, we finally got to a point that we could lay everything out and re-lay our expectations of the M going forward. After this she tried to get close to me with affection and probably would have led to SF. Very gently and with love I told her that I could not just have affection and SF and everything would be allright. We had to continue to work on things and show each other that we made the right decision to rebuild our marriage and then the rest would fall back in place. The amazing thing is that my pushing her away (albiet gently and without using it as a weapon) made her want it even more. This is something very new for us. I took this as a sign that I need to respect her space more in the future and when she starts feeling pressure to back off. Again counterintuitive, but I believe that many FWW's are exactly the same. The want what they can't always have but despise being forced into something they don't want. I could write a book about all the reasons why that they probably feel this way but I suspect it mostly comes down to how they feel about themselves at the time and probably many of them being co-dependants.

I would really appreciate KiwiJ's take on this analysis from her perspective as a FWW. If I am anywhere close, I think this is a good starting place for you.

NT

Orchid: Who r u giving up & quitting on? Please clarify.


Orchid: That is what she is saying now. You do see that she waivers in her statements. Quite WS like. Now do you really want to know how to handle this or do you just want to 'quit'?


Orchid: Of course. Plain as day to the rest of the world but A colored to a WS frame of mind.

Now which glasses do you want to see life in.... on with clear focus of fog covered glasses?


Orchid: Yea..... all Bs' are the 'bad guy' to the WS type. So what's new. I was called a lot of names by the fog headed ones of my time. LOL!!! But since I realized they had fog induced vision, it didn't hurt as much. Why? Because I realized, they weren't telling the truth.


Orchid: Yes, she can. Now leave her alone so she can either stand or fall. This will be hard for you but it is part of what you must do to recover.

Now TD, we need to help you help yourself. Stop aiding a WS. When she is a WS, she needs to be away from you and the children. Go read, love must be tough by Dr. Dobson. Don't worry, even if she reads, it she won't be able to apply it against you because her current WS frame of mind won't let her.

You go take care of yourself and your children. Reassure your children of your love and support and even if they are young, ask for theirs.....a hug is a sign of support. Your children know how to hug, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Listen, stay off her posts and keep out of her way. MB has had couples post in the past and when the WS type posts here, things can get out of hand...... so let her post her own thoughts and try to defend the WS way..... it w/b temporary, rough and frustrating but let her do it.

She can't hit or kick us like she can try t/d to you and the children, so let us take the brunt of her posts. You go and work on you. If she does the nanni-nanni-nanni type of whining, let her knowing that she isn't fooling us with babble. We will help her once she is willing to help herself.

take care,
L.

take care,
L.

The M.

I don't have anything else. She takes what I've offered - and when there's an imperfection, the stomps on it and spits in my face. I can't do this anymore.


First, do I WANT to quit? No. I just can't go on.

Yes, her behavior IS WS-like. So. It has to end someday, and it is increasingly clear that she has no intention of forgiving ANYTHING that has ever happened. So, there's nothing I can do. I've been trying to do Plan A since last June, and she's been playing me like a fiddle. I guess it would be nice to know how to handle it, but I just don't have the strength for her game anymore. She has GOT to step up to the plate and start working for the restoration of the M on her own initiative. Whether for the M, itself, or "for the kids." I don't care, but she has GOT to do something other than physically be here and not be actively engaged in a PA to say that she's "giving the M everything" she has. That's bull. That's what she's said for months, and it's just not good enough anymore.

What she says waivers, but what she does, or more accurately, doesn't do, is consistent.

So, now she's left again. She's gone over to her aunt's. Before she left, I asked her about this morning... She was willing to cuddle, and we did for almost an hour. She told me last night before we went to sleep that she forgave me, so what had changed? She said she got up and remembered that her knee hurt.

I guess any reason's a good reason to take back up an offense you had previously forgiven.

So, I'm alone again.

I feel so dead inside. And she's "justified." Her aunt is more than happy to help her leave me. Last night I gave her what she wanted - a way to blame me for everything that she can color as the true reason for divorcing me. She's afraid I'll become increasingly violent... That's funny. Even when I'm "violent" my violence consists of trying to keep her from doing serious damage to me. Not once. Not EVER have I ever raised my hand against her. I've never hit, kicked, slapped, bit, or in anyway aggressively or intentionally sought to cause her pain or injury.

But, I'm the guy (all big, mean, and male), so I'm presumptively aggressive and violent, and I'm unforgiveable.

So I'm done, because there's nothing left in me to do.

Intimidating her with your larger physical presense and preventing her from leaving the room is a serious offense that you seem to want to minimize. She was wrong to hit/ you, but you were wrong for placing yourself in a controlling physical position over her.

No matter how you want to spin it, you were attempting to force something from her by your larger physical presense.

Period.

TD,

I know it is hard right now. Realize you have more support here than you know.

Please finish responding to the rest of my questions. I have to go to work soon so it may be a while before I can respond but others will. Your answers will help us be able to help you.

L.

Something else.

It just dawned on me that Crystal has never actually appologized to me for the A.

She will admit that it was wrong. She will acknowledge that it probably *did* hurt me, BUT...

She has NEVER acknowledged that SHE caused my pain. She has never asked to be forgiven, or even indicated that what she's done is something that needed any forgiving in the first place.

It's because I'm unforgiveable according to her. Any and all forgivness is conditional and temporary. Any future event that reminds or would be bolstered by dredging up past failures is sufficient justification to UN-forgive me.

Unloved... Unforgiven... Unforgiveable...

This is too much for one person to have to take.

Let's see, mousling... My intimidating physical presence...

Should I have backed off? Yes.

Did I imprison her? No. For all of her complaining about it, when she repeated her demand to be allowed to go, I stepped to the side. I wanted her to take my need to address the problems seriously, but I did not keep her trapped once it was clear she had no intention to work on the issues.

TD - We have all felt that way, and went on to have better lives. I have been praying for you and your family.

I'm afraid that Crystal will call the police on you and have you put OUT. So I would think about that.

Can you take care of the kids on your own?

That's why it is vital we get you on your recovery plan ASAP. There's a lot of things Crystal hasn't done. The more she posts the more obvious it becomes.

Now TD, you can't help her until she helps yourself. She can say she forgives you all she wants and it will never be enough.

Do you realize that..... well I gotta wait until you answer my questions to be able to help you.

IMPORTANT: Stay off of her threads. You don't have to defend yourself, ok? We are not easily fooled out here.

BTW, I am a BS who has witnessed violence. The WS in life was arrested because HE called the police to report a CRAZY woman (ME). LOL!!! What the 4 police officers found when they arrived was the WS pushing ME back into the house. Even to this day, H's version of that day and mine are NOT the same. He has blocked out some hurtful events but I remember it clearly. It resulted in him being arrested with an RO being filed against him. The WS stood up to the police and cussed them out. Police don't like that and neither should you. I didn't have to file an RO, they did.

The story doesn't end there but you can see that if you do what is right, in time the WS will get themselves into trouble.....it's part of their plan, don't let it be part of yours.

Expect her to get real mad for you getting support. There is nothing to satisfy her now. Stop feeding the A beast.

Now go read, take deep cleansing breathes and give us some answers.

L.

She may. However, since she acknowledges that she did start the physical altercation, and that at no point can she say she was ever in fear that I would attempt to harm her, AND because I have scratches and bruises from HER, her claim would seem somewhat weak.

I don't think she'll go to the police, but, heck, I didn't think she would have an A, so what do I know.


I can figure out something to do what needs to be done.

Please do keep praying for us.

I'd be afraid you'd become increasingly violent, too. Listen to yourself. In the interest of keeping her from doing serious damage to you, why didn't you simply exit the room? It doesn't sound like she was chasing you. She was running away. What possessed you to follow her?

You haven't even acknowledged that you trapped her in a small space and wouldn't let her leave. Do you think that's OK?

I'm sorry. None of this justifies any of her bad behavior. But, on the strength of that type of behavior, I'd divorce you, too. I'm absolutely shocked to my toes that you don't see how what you did (trapping her) was an extremely vicious, abusive, and terrifying thing to do to anyone - let alone this woman you profess to love.

You are simply going to have to get a hold of yourself and immediately stop this behavior because otherwise your wife is perfectly justfied in not trusting you to keep her safe. When she wants to get away from you - LET HER LEAVE. You have no right to physically impose your presence on her for any reason.

As long as you blame her and try to justify the fact that you can't keep your temper in check, you aren't getting it. Similarly, as long as she tries to blame you and justify that she had an affair, she's just not getting it.

This isn't going to blow over - and it shouldn't. What are you doing RIGHT NOW to manage your anger better? How can you assure her it won't escalate or even stay at this present abusive level?


What you did (trapping her and not letting her escape) IS AGGRESSIVE, VIOLENT and potentially unforgivable as long as you want to keep making it sound as though she's crazy to be concerned about that type of behavior. So, are you willing to own up to the fact that you were abusive to her last night - you trapped her (everything past that point is just escalation) and that was completely out of control on your part?


That's too late. When she tried to get away from you in the first place was the moment you should have realized it was time to deal with your needs in a more constructive manner. Saying that once you realized she was 'serious' about not liking to be trapped - then you backed off is just more sick justification on your part.

What have you learned from this? Not to chase and trap your wife at all? Or, only as long as you don't think she really means NO when she says NO?

I know I'm being really hard on you. But, this is SERIOUS. What you did was SERIOUS. I just hope you can see that.

Mys

Orchid, I thought I had answered your questions... I guess I could say that my kids DO know how to hug, but I don't think that's what you meant.

Please re-state the questions you would like me to address.

TD,

here are the rest of my questions. I kept the one about hugging the children in because I also mentioned about making them and yourself part of each other's support team.

TD - If you both have scratches/bruises, you both may go to jail.

I live in California. When WH tried to move home right before Christmas, I went straight from work to court. I got to see a judge for a restraining order immediately. When he read the papers that I filled out, he said he couldn't grant one, because my WH had not been violent. He asked me (GET THIS) - "Do you want to redo the paperwork?" In other words, an invitation to lie.

Mys,

So... what do I say. I already appologized to my W for not backing off to start with.

But that's not good enough.

I *DO* dispute that I was "aggressively" violent. Am I minimizing, perhaps, but I see a distinction between decking someone and standing still.

Maybe I'm being stupid.

You and everyone else is absolutely correct that I should have just stood back and let her do anything she wanted to do. I'm standing there with a gash all the way through my heart, and she's twisting a stick in it, and I'm supposed to be totally calm-cool-and-collected at all times.

I failed.

I do appreciate you pointing out to me that I'm a violent thug. I'm glad that two times total (and both since the A) in which my darling W has been verbally and emotionally abusive to me, where I've tried to TALK through a problem and she's resorted to physical violence, that I'm "increasingly violent." All men are [email]d@mned[/email] when women get to define "increasingly violent" in a way that lets them get away with whatever they want but imposes strict and absolute liability on men.

I forgot: WS's get all the choices.

Orchid, My glasses are smudged with tears, not fog.

Hers... well she adamantly denies ANY fog, and gets thoroughly offended when anyone suggests that she's at all affected by fog or any other A sort of thing.

Crystal lost the address and phone number for the truth a long time ago.

I'm not worried about Crystal reading Love Must Be Tough, because she's not interested in reading anything about making herself or our M any better. She says she's starting on this book or another, but she doesn't. Last night she said she would join me in devotionals or reading through a book in lieu of SF - just so we could do something together and she could prove that she's doing something for the benefit of the M, but today she decided not to.

I don't knowhow much longer she's going to post here. She wants to get support (why she's over at her aunt's). She want's people to AGREE with her that trashing the M is the right thing to do.

It's easy to say go read or do something to give her space. And I know I have some amount of neediness in me. It's much less than before, but when you're used up, all that's left is need. Half the time she says she wants space is because she knows I'm hurting and she knows I work through things by talking through them, so running away is another way to inflict pain. She'll get mad when she reads this... How DARE I presume malicious intent on her part. It will be yet another reason to be mad at me, as if she can't just bring up one from 8-12 years ago that will suit her purposes... But it's true. She says things specifically to hurt me and then she feigns a need for space so that I'm left in pain.

I know why I never had an A. I don't have that much cruelty. I just couldn't sustain it.

An apology isn't enough if it isn't backed up with an assurance that 1.) you realize that what you did was out of line and 2.) reassurance that it won't happen again.

Think along the lines that a simple "I'm sorry" isn't enough to apologize for an affair.


It isn't.


There is a difference but both are aggresive. Standing there and not allowing her to escape was the aggressive part. Not retreating, grabbing her, etc. was the violent part. You had choices to get away that she apparently did not have rather than resorting to physically trying to impose your will on her.


There's a HUGE DIFFERENCE between allowing her to do anything she wants to do and allowing her the choice to not do what you wanted her to do at that moment. People on these boards talk about the entitlement that a WS feels - but somehow you feel entitled to tell your wife what to do, expect her to do it, and physically get into her face if she doesn't. That's quite a sense of entitlement you have going on there, don't you think?

I do understand that you're hurting but I abhor that you're using that to justify abusive behavior. You don't get to choose destructive ways of dealing with things and get a free pass because your heart is broken. If you want to WORK on your relationship then choose CONSTRUCTIVE ways to deal with your anger.

Your anger is perfectly understandable. It's probably going to be around for a while. If you don't learn to manage it in ways that are productive and constructive instead of destructive then you're not getting it. Just because you're angry, that doesn't justify whatever behavior you see fit. It works the same way for affairs - just because you're unahppy it doesn't justify that behavior.

No one expects you to absolutely calm-cool-and collected. What we do expect, though, is for you to recognize when you're out of control and to GO SOMEWHERE ELSE and regain control of yourself. Acting out is NOT OK - NOT EVEN IF YOU'RE HURT.

Get it?


Yes. You did. Now, the important part is are you going to accept that and figure that you deserved it because after all.. <blah blah blah> or are you going to man up about it and resolve to do something differently tomorrow and the next day? Are you going to plan or are you going to sit there and shrug and say "Well, she made me do it..." the abuser's mantra.


*sighs*

In this case, whatever she wanted was a safe retreat from a conversation. Are you really going to sit there and say that your wife should be compelled to talk to you when you snap your fingers? Are you that controlling? Or is this just your anger and angst talking some more?

If you're being abused - LEAVE THE AREA. If your wife needs to get away from you LET HER LEAVE. Those two rules are actually quite simple.

And what's with this "All men are [email]d@ammed[/email] when women get to define increasingly violent" Do you realize you sound like a mysogynist with that statement? This isn't because you're a man. This is because what you did was wrong.


No, you still get to choose how you behave. You can behave in a way that's constructive or you can behave in a way that's destructive.

Choose.

Mys

Mys,

As they say, hindsight is 20/20. What can I do? Promise not to ever start fights again? I didn't start that one. How does one promise not to be hurt beyond the abililty to see things in a different light later? That's what you're asking of me.

The thing is, I don't run away from pain. It exists because something is WRONG. I don't like being in pain, so I want to fix the problem.

I'm no mysogyinist. I'm cornered. I see no hope. In this place, I see condemnation. I made a mistake, and the conventional wisdom is that standing in a doorway is more fundamentally evil than an A, and far less forgiveable.

TD - I understand why you did what you did. But you are going to need to detach from all of this. Crystal is not going to work on the marriage right now. I think she has made that very plain to everyone.

You have been doing this too long, for one thing. You are in great danger of losing your love for her completely.

No, that's not what I'm asking of you. It's really not.

What I'm asking of you is to take responsibility for your temper and understand that being mad or hurt or anxious or <whatever> is PERFECTLY NORMAL. It's expected. And, because it's so darn normal and expected you need a PLAN to deal with those strong emotions so you don't get carried away in the moment and do things you regret later.

This isn't about starting fights. This isn't about being over wrought. This isn't about being hurt. This is about what you DID. Can you see how safety is never assured as long as all it takes is for you to feel hurt or feel anger and suddenly it's ok for you to trap your wife? It's the exact same as the BS/WS quandry: If a WS is unhappy does that mean they'll give themselves permission to cheat?

Just as much as you want your wife to find different ways of dealing with her unhappiness in your relationship - you need to ifnd different ways of dealing with your strong emotions.


Not running away from pain isn't the issue. Doing things you know are wrong - or would know are wrong if you weren't so angry, hurt, <whatever> is the issue.

I know you want to fix the problem but it seems that you're focusing on the wrong problem. You're fixing on the problem of what's causing the pain instead of focusing on the problem of dealing with and managing the pain that you have to deal with. It would be one thing if anyone here could tell you that this pain is likely to be short lived .. grit your teeth & get yourself through it. But, let's be serious here, this pain isn't going anywhere soon (unfortunately. I do wish for everyone's sake that it would vanish tomorrow) so since that's the case, it's time to find a way to manage it that doesn't destroy everything you're trying to build.

The pain is here. It's real. It's likely to come flaring up again. NOW is the time to figure out what to do instead of what you did last night. For example, recognizing it when it happens and getting far away from doing anything you might regret.


No, it's not more evil. It's not less evil, though. Standing in a doorway isn't what you did. Trapping your wife is what you did. You've stood in doorways all your life, I'm sure, and haven't come to a support board about it. Your wife didn't run away to her aunt's because of it. No one got brused because of it.

As for forgiveness - in order for there to be forgiveness there must be remorse. So far I haven't heard any true remorse for YOUR WIFE - just for you because you feel kinda picked on that people think badly of you because of what you did (including your wife). You seem less unhappy that she might be actually emotionally hurt or physically injured than you do about how you might be portrayed through all of this.

I wouldn't advocate you forgiving your wife's affair without her heartfelt remorse for your pain. I wouldn't advocate your wife forgiving you for last night's abusive intimidation tactics without some heart felt remorse for HER pain from you.

Mys