Man - I feel like I'm back 10 years ago with my husband and me - I went into serious withdrawl when his mood swings started getting pretty serious - job stress and the chemicals he worked around at the time. We'd been through some pretty rough spells before where he'd do quite a bit of what TD is doing - forcing a conflict so that Crystal will at least engage - and she's so enraged by the confrontation and the "force" instead of just being a decent guy and attracting me that way... well, I remember times where I'd try to escape and he'd be banging on the car or even jumping on it....

Crystal - just stop it. Stop trying to justify your own violence and blowing your stack. It won't change the polarity of your relationship with TD. And it doesn't make you any less wrong. Man - I hope the judge sees right through you. Too many men get kicked and slapped by their wives and no judge will stick it to them - but the man raise a hand to defend himself and WHAM - the law slams down on them hard.

TD - grow up - cornering something you can't control won't bring it under control.

Both of you start getting honest with the man/woman in the mirror and stop pointing the finger at your spouse. You have children to think about - or did you forget that??? I mean, Crystal - that IS your excuse for staying in the marriage right now, right?

TD - start earning her back on merit - not by force. When Kasey finally figured out I was far enough in withdrawl that I didn't NEED to come home and didn't need to be married to him - that's when he started to work on EARNING the relationship. He has one major emotional need to begin to work on still, but the rest of my needs he's working on regularly. But it's been ten years of both of us growing up and committing to each other. And we stay together for each other and ourselves, not just because we have a child.

God bless you both!! I feel lucky to have what mess I do have...

Crystal:

Neither your or TD's actions are excusable. I just replied to his thread and hopefully wakes him up a little and allows him to understand what may be going through your mind.

As for you, staying in the marriage for the sake of the kids is not an acceptable alternative in my mind. Regardless of the events that contributed to the marital environment prior to your A, you made a choice to go outside the marriage to have your needs met. Expecting TD to stay in a loveless marriage even without having to deal with the pain that you have caused is more than even God would ask us to do. You need to make a decison. Are you willing to commit to rebuilding your marriage and allowing TD to change into the spouse that he should/could be while you do the same or is your LB so overdrawn that there is no chance for you to ever "feel" anything for him again. I don't think that you have to feel love for him right now and I think he is wrong in trying to force you to have feelings or to tell him that you have feelings that you don't. But I do think that if you want to rebuild your marriage you have to be open to the possibility that those feelings can be rekindled. If they cannot, you are not doing yourself, him or your children any favors by staying in the cancerous marriage environment that you both have created.

I hate to be so critical of a WW who has taken the initiative to come on here and discuss her feelings honestly despite the slew of 2x4's that are slammed at them. But I do believe that your posts continue to show a sense of entitlement that no doubt contributed in large part to your ability to make a poor decison to have an A.

NT

Orchid: U guessed wrong.


Orchid: U r sure? Why? Where did you ever read that support of violence for either spouse is valid? U r jumping to conclusions....wrong conclusions to boot.


Orchid: There's a saying....'fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice shame on me...' What kind of drugs are you taking to allow yourself t/b the intiator?


Orchid: You shouldn't tolerate abuse....what sensible things are you planning t/d to resolve it? What positive, constructive actions/options (not vindicitive ones) r u considering to help yourself, your H and your family?

You know Crystal, I have posted to you several times and you seem to keep wanting to stay in the rut u have put yourself in. Yet you keep whining about how bad it is for you but no real mention of how this is affecting your H and your family..... WHY?!?!?!?

L.

I think

that perhaps the *glue* that holds these 2 people together

is drama

some people become as addicted to the drama as to any other sort of *thrill*

this was an adrenaline-pumping experience .... and it provides a sort of *rush*

this is drama-addiction...

which is

IMPOSSIBLE without full cooperation from both of you

this marital bungee jumping ... with a prolonged free-fall

and the post-game arguement is also a *rush*

"YOUR fault"

"YOU started it"

"YOU'RE bigger"

"YOU'RE meaner"

"I know you are but what am I"

.... this is how 2 people insure an attachment without really getting close

it will probably continue like this for years to come

Crystal and TD ... don't come after me looking for a fight ... I do know how to disconnect ....

Oh, another suggestion, How to Talk to Teens so Teens will Listen and Listen so Teens will Talk.

Whether you are the abused or the abuser, you have both bought into the idea that one person wins and one person loses in an argument. In marriage, both win or both lose. I found the teen book particularly helpful. A friend of mine told me years ago that I was dealing with my first teen. In actual fact, I was -- but it took time for me to realize that I was acting like a teenager as well.

Cherished

I am gonna make myself very clear here.

if you two keep acting this way with the W starting the violence and the H finishing it up, THE COURTS WILL TAKE AWAY THE KIDS FROM THE WHOLE SITCH b/c YOU'RE BOTH BEING VIOLENT.

a slap starts a fight.

let's get that straight.

it is considered DOMESTIC ABUSE.

but so is IMPRISONMENT...and so is grabbing and holding and quite possibly pushing.

that is also DOMESTIC ABUSE.

AND YOU'RE BOTH DOING IT TO EACH OTHER.

I am a working mom crystal. I was before this a sahm who had to figure out a totally upside down world when my xh left after our last d day...actually I left him...but it was at that point over. not only do I bring home the bacon in my house, but I also take call at a hospital and sometimes have slept there and worked over 20 plus hours there on weekends when it is my turn. some days I am so tired I come home and can only think of zzzz..but my son is there, and I have a job to do...

that job would be being one helluva mom to that wonderful child and a role model. sleep can wait.

IN PARENTING YOU GET NO MULLIGANS..no do-overs.

I see serious issues here.

but the most serious is that there is violence where some sweet innocent children live.

and as far as sf is seen, td, you need to back off as it's seen as a lb right now. do not chase your W. do not back her into a room. do not pressure her.

my xh at the end of our m, right before the last d day, grew progressively controlling and violent towards me. the more a ws he became, the meaner, angrier, nastier, and controlling he got. he could not stand if i would go anywhere, say to dinner, with my friends as he would view it as "me cheating" too...which I never did. he became uncontrollable. we briefly reconciled for a few weeks...but he was unable to control his actions and after I discovered the affair had resumed the very last time, with NO PROVOCATION FROM ME except a sentence saying "hey darth...(as I was unpacking his overnight bag from a so called business trip) since when did you start wearing pink harley davidson baseball hats? I took a nasty fall (was pushed) and hit. bruised down one side of my body. I left immediately. was scared and shaking from him for hours. he went to see our counselor that very day....AND LIED TO HER...never mentioned he was violent and abusive to me...just told her how I was crying and acting wacked out and shaking...why? he'd abused me.

during that time I packed my suv and left with my child.

children do NOT deserve to see a parent being abusive to another parent.

do you want them to emulate this behavior? no you do not.

so crystall stop the initiating.

and td...stop it...stop it.

Well... this is just great. People who are SO intent on avoiding the issues that they will resort to violence and drama to divert attention from what needs to be done.

You can spend a lifetime doing this, no worries. Altercations like this will give a semblance of you "working" at the marriage so the guilt stays at bay, and in the meantime, time goes by, children suffer, hearts are hardened, and lives are wasted.

I can actually speak to this addiction to Drama. I was addicted to it FOREVER. My initial Plan B attempt, that's what I was looking for.....his crazy reaction to me not talking to him. It validated his feelings for me (At least that's what my line of thinking was), it made me feel better....i.e. Awww see he really cares about me, he jumped into my car and tried to steal my keys and then screamed in my face with my daughter in the car....he loves me.

I see now how truly twisted that was, and this time I have checked out of the drama....I don't want it. That's not love.

Also. I wanted to speak about things getting physical. This is also something I know a little about. I provoked my WH into hitting me (The one and only time it's ever happened). Before he slapped me across the face, I did the following.

Threw dirt in his face from a plant I had broken.

Slapped him in the face repeatedly, probably 10 times....and not only was I slapping him, I was FOLLOWING him and slapping him...he was trying to walk away.

And he slapped me back.

I started it, I was the one who was being violent, and he reacted......when I posted this (It's been a long time ago)people advised me to leave, to go to a shelter for abused women....etc. etc.

Violence isn't an acceptable outlet for your frustration...not now, not ever. My husband and I were wrong, and twisted and thank God the kids didn't see any of it.

I am so sorry things are the way they are with you two right now. It pains me to see it, it really does.

I think that crystal still has some entitlement issues, and is still foggy.

And TD, you're taker is in overdrive....and I understand this, as it's close to impossible for me not to let my taker from overtaking me.....it's hard when you've been without affection, without love for so long....I know it.

I think we have to understand, and try to see a little bit of where our spouses are coming from. No, it wasn't right that they had the *A*, but they're having difficulting reconciling their feelings right now, and I think that they probably need time to do so.

I really know how your feeling, probably a lot better than you could even imagine. I feel like every ILY I get from my husband is forced....guess what, ILY's that way aren't very satisfying either....but he's trying, so I let it slide.

I know it's hard to see her side of it, it's really, really hard, but somethings gotta give here guys.

God Bless,

-Caren

I give up. Like I said on my thread.

I went to her last night, and told her that I give up. I'm going to keep doing the things around the house that need to be done, but I wasn't investing any more into the M until SHE shows some initiative.

That wasn't entirely true, though. I do want the M to work. I told her that I was sorry, and I meant it. I appologized that all she saw was me wanting SF from her. I want a connection with her, and I said that if SF wasn't what she was willing to do, then perhaps we could spend the time we might otherwise spend in SF doing devotionals or reading some of the M books we've gotten together. She agreed.

I asked her forgiveness, and she said she forgave me.

Then, today at church, she was as cold as ice to me, and she got on here today to start to re-hash how evil and violent I am to her.

I can't remember which thread or which poster it was, but somebody told me to know how long I could give. Well, the simple fact is that I have given non-stop since D-Day, in June. She *pretended* to care about the M for a while, but got right back onto contact w/ OM, and promptly started planning her divorce strategy.

I haven't stopped giving, but she hasn't given once. I've done this too long.

She doesn't want the M to work, and she wants to be able to blame me.

I'm done.

JL,

Oh, but it's perfectly acceptable for him to hold me in a room against my will??? It's perfectly OK for him to say to me that I CAN'T have privacy to change my clothes?? It's ok for him to rip the bathroom door out of my hand so hard that he put a hole in the door with one of the door stoppers??? So, if I'm hearing you correctly, all of that is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE because it's not "violent." So, holding someone against their will is NOT violent NOR is it wrong. So, if he wanted to keep me locked in the bathroom with him all night long, that would be ok too, right??? Because, you see, he's done this before. Remember back to the BaltoGuy/PHgirl posts....the TPO I got on him, how he'd trapped me in a 3 ft. x 3 ft. space in our house, holding me there until he got me to say what he wanted to hear, only I had nothing to say to him...and I tried to push past him, but he stood firm, not letting me get past. And all of the resulting in me running out the door at 10pm in bare feet because it was the only way away from him. He promised that he'd NEVER do that to me again...that it was because of his drug interaction. Well, he doesn't have the drug interaction to use as an excuse this time. And I fear that this will become more and more frequent. Perhaps you'd feel perfectly safe living this way, but I don't.

Crystal

Look....having lived the entire nightmare that you two are putting out for us all to read you two need to decide what it is you want from each other. I warn you that what you THINK you want right this second can and will change...but as I see it you're on wheel....get off it and do something about it...even if it is separating and divorcing neither of you are getting anywhere....with your current behaviors

I see you both having done things that are wrong, try and make them right or move on....

What he did was wrong. He apologized, according to his post. It doesn't make it go away.

What you did was wrong. Did you apologize? It's a start.

You are not more right than him. You were violent as well, and in my opinion from what you wrote, you started it with kicking and screaming. So, to keep this up about how awful he was, while defending your actions, will get you nowhere.

IF he is so absolutely awful and abusive as you elude to by going back to the last time he did this, then you need to get away from him. For you and for him. And of course for the kids.

You need a time out. (And if my kids acted this way they'd get a whoopin.) Straighten up, both of you!

Dear Crystal,

I have no way of knowing what is really going on in your marriage, but if your husband is literally and physically holding you against your will, then I think that is an indication of an abusive relationship and you should get out - at least until your husband and you get some professional help. If the father of your children is acting out in such a way, then there is a potential for violence that you have a responsibility to protect your children from. I'm sorry I haven't read all your posts - if I had, I might know more about the specifics of your relationship with your husband, but I would ask you this.... Are his actions as volatile and aggressive as they sound, or is he simply frustrated? Are you as verbally volatile and aggressive with him as you seem to be here, or are you simply frustrated? Either way, as others have stated, it seems as though you both need constructive, professional assistance for yourselves and your marriage.

Peace,

MAzingrace

Can't help you until you stop ranting. If your H is really dangerous, then call your local women's abuse hotline. Don't make stuff up, though. If you falsely accuse him, you could both lose your children.

Seems right now you like to irritate. You have not responded to any of my posts. Seems like you don't want help and you don't want him to get help.

Am I jumping to conclusions? Hm..... well, let's see.

L.

Spot on, Orchid.

Crystal,

WHat a load! You are NOT a victim. You have been pushing and pushing, and violent, and abusive, and then you ask me that question.

I have no idea who did what to whom to start this, but I do KNOW from your posts, that you are an abusive woman. I have deep concerns that either of you should be allowed to maintain custody of your children, and YOU SURELY ARE NOT A DEFENSELESS VICTIM so KNOCK IT OFF.

Some of these women may feel sorry for you, but I sure don't. You instigate as much as your H if not more. You are cruel, you are violent, and you manipulative. He is a fool to be around you, and frankly so is any man.

Am I making myself clear???? I sure hope so. You both NEED and REQUIRE serious counseling, and your poor children...what will they ever do with EITHER of you as parents.

This whole thing is just disgusting.

JL

JL

cant even begin to tell you how much I agree with your post

Thanks for saying what I haven't been able to say....

JL - I could not agree more.

As someone who was once in an abusive M (including being locked in rooms and held against my will) and who now volunteers for DV centers, nothing makes my blood BOIL (!!!) more than someone who claims to be a victim when, in fact, he or she is equally guilty or even the initiator.

I can assure you, Crystal, that I endured more abuse & torture than you can imagine, and not once did I bite, kick, scratch, etc my H. I left and worked with professionals to end the abuse cycle. There's no excuse for any of this. It's revolting. And you are delusional if you think your children don't know what's going on and aren't being permanently affected by your antics & your own abusive behavior.

You need to learn something that you should have learned as a child: it doesn't matter what the other person does or does not do to you, you are still 100% responsible for your own actions and decisions. Stop pointing fingers & shifting blame and start taking a good long look at yourself in the mirror. You will never find peace & happiness as an adult until you learn to take full responsibility for your choices in life. When you are in a situation you don't like, you can either choose to make it better or choose to make it worse. I don't care how much you think you were "provoked" or "had no choice" - you always have the choice to do the right thing & the thing that will make your M better or worse. You keep choosing to do things that make your M worse and you want others to cheer you on your downward slide. No way. And to make it worse, your children are along for the ride.

I am done posting to you. Good luck. Prayers for your family and your C.