The two of you claim to be Christians in severe marital crisis who are trying to figure out HOW to recover your marriage and/or whether or not you WANT to be married.

IF you are BOTH sincere in wanting to TRY, then I will be willing to talk with you both, but only on the condition that we FIRST address your individual relationships with Christ, and then we can talk about your marriage.

IF either of you is unwilling to put Christ FIRST and to submit your lives to Him, not each other, in humble obedience, there will be no point in continuing. But if you ARE willing, I will be happy to work with you in addressing your MANY concerns, angers, fears, uncertainties, etc.

The PREMISE of this for Christians in general, and your situation in particular, is this:

[color:"red"]"If you love me, you will obey what I command." [/color] (John 14:15 NIV)

Don't you think it's time you both put down the weapons of hurt and anger and LISTEN to God, OBEY God, and RECEIVE the blessings of God?

You have received much advice and comment so far, but NONE of it directed at your relationship with the one who "bought and paid for you" so you could be HIS bride.

Shall we listen to God together?

God bless.

ForeverHers-

EXCELLENT post. This is the most productive post to TD and Crystal that I have seen thusfar!!!

God Bless,

-Caren

Yes, I am a Christian.

Despite Saturday's problems, I am trying to lay my interests down and listen and obey. It's far easier said than done.

I am more than willing to receive Godly counsel. Thank you for offering it.

TD, you are right. It isn't easy, but if it was easy, none of us would be here or even be dealing with the devastation of marriage "gone bad" (we'd all be running as fast as we could go straight to divorce court).

For "recoverees" though, as the little green guy, Yoda, said; "there is no 'try.' Only do." A simplification of the idea, but the truth is that if all we ever do is "try," we will, by definition, never "do." So when you face those things, let me give you a different passage of Scripture than the one you have in your signature line to make your "Recovery verse." It is Philippians 4:13; "I can do everything through him who gives me strength." Not "try." "Do." God's promise as you follow him in humble obedience. God not only provides the command, He also provides all the needed resources. Just remember, too, that "do" does NOT mean "done," as in finished, over NOW, instantaneous Recovered marriage. "Doing" means actual, effective, continuous, purposeful, committed, WORK until the goal is achieved and the "doing" is second nature.

Christ's death on the cross to purchase your forgiveness was not easy either. Keep that in mind when the "going gets tough." And it WILL get tough, usually just when you "thought" things were getting better.

So what's the first "not easy" thing you would like to discuss that you are having trouble "giving to God" and wanting to keep control of for yourself? Consider this a "Garden of Gethsemene" conversation with God about "not wanting to do what you already know God has said you must do." Sweating drops of blood is not required, but is okay if it you feel it is needed due to the intensity of the stress or the emotional difficulty of being obedient to what God is commanding.

P.S. And what say your wife to the opening question? Will she be joining us in discussion?

FH,

I hear what you're saying, Eph 6:13 came to mind, "Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand." There's a certain... I don't know... Just a command to ignore the pull downward and keep upright.

It reminds me of when I get on a treadmill... I am one of those folks who used to say, "If God wanted men to run, He wouldn't have let us invent cars!" So, after a half a mile, I want to stop. I know I can do more, but I really don't want to. So, I look up and read the closed-captioning on CNN, or whatever's on, and take my mind off of how much I would rather not be on the treadmill, and I can get several miles covered.

But you're right, too, about the going getting tough, right when you think it's getting better. Last week we made some really significant advances. I had learned a lot of ways to meet Crystal's ENs, and had avoided almost every LB all week. Towards the end of the week, though, as I was seeing her respond, I started wanting her to meet my ENs. Dr. Harley would call it the Taker, but, I'll be honest, it was my "Old Man" or "Flesh" in Christian parlance. My filling of Crystal's ENs stopped being the pure gifts they were supposed to be and started become a bit sacrificial, and she could see that, I think, and she knew it was because I WANTED her to do for me.

I wasted such an opportunity, and destroyed a large portion of Crystal's new-found hope that there might be a chance to be happy with me. She's giving me another shot, but she's once again virtually hopeless, and I did that.

I guess the biggest thing I'm having difficulty letting completely go of is the pace. I can't stand to wallow in pain. I want it over. It was a blessing in my family as a kid, because my parents tried to create a home that followed the "sundown" rule (i.e. "Don't let the Sun go down on your anger..."). In our house we would argue through issues and come to a resolution. My mom was the academic, and there were me, my 2 brothers and my dad, so, a "facing problems head-on" approach actually worked pretty well for us. We may not have always come up with the *best* resolution, but we didn't leave anger and hurt simmering.

So that I guess goes to why I have such a hard time backing down when an emotional issue is emergent. It's cancer, and I want it OUT.

And then, also part of the "pace" issue I have is that I desperately want Crystal to want our marriage restored as passionately as I do. I want her to throw herself into our restoration with abandon, and be willing to risk everything to achieve it. At this point, I have no higher priority in my life, and I'm at a particular point - studying for a bar exam - where most of my counterparts would be willing to let almost everything but the most basic of biological functions slide just to study, but I'm consciously subordinating it for the well-being of my family. I don't know if Crystal sees what I'm doing or understands why I'm doing what I'm doing. I get the impression that she thinks I'm not studying as much as I should because I don't want to study or that I don't care. That's not it at all.

Anyway, I don't want to stay in this place. I keep thinking that if she would JUST go to the Bible, agree with it, and commit to what it says, we'd be 95% of the way to recovered. Part of me knows that's wrong, but I still believe that our success will be guarranteed if she makes that choice. (Not "easy" but certain, just the same.)

I dive into the assignments that Jennifer suggests. Partly because I want to demonstrate to Crystal that I'm not the guy who took his wife and family for granted for so many years. At least, not any more. And partly to try to DO something. I keep trying to set all the dominos in place so that as soon as Crystal makes the first move, she'll start a chain of reaction that sweeps us into a recovered state. Stupid, I know, but I just want to fight through the pain.

Maybe that's something else I need to let go of. I want to fight through the problem. I know God's given me great intellectual giftings, and I feel so powerless right now. I so desperately want to utilize every fiber of my being and every faculty at my disposal to climb out of this pit and pull my wife with me. I know that this can't be accomplished on the "strength" of my efforts, but it's so maddening waiting here in the pit for whatever's going to come to move us to a new place.

I guess that's enough of a post for tonigh.

Will Crystal be joining us? I don't know. Perhaps she's waiting to see the tennor of this thread. Last night she and I talked and decided that we were done with MB, and when I saw her typing up a post, I supposed she had found some new reserves. Hopefully we'll both use this forum more wisely.

TD, good information to begin a discussion. Let me preface the comments by saying that if you and your wife have decided to leave MB, then do it. It may sound a bit "arrogant," as some have accused me of being, but I am NOT interested in working with anyone who will NOT make the commitment to DO what the Lord commands of them REGARDLESS of how they are feeling. God KNOWS how you both are feeling and He is telling you both two things; the emotions you feel came from Him, He gave them to you, and He has felt (in Jesus's life) ALL the emotions personally and understands what you are feeling; and two, God also says that while he "understands" the legitimate feelings you have, they are NO EXCUSE for disobedience to His commands.

Therefore, you both need to CHOOSE, as Christians, whether or not you WILL submit your wills to your Lord's will, no matter what, and will trust in God to be faithful to HIS commitment that is expressed to us in Romans 8:28. "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

TD, your marriage was "called according to his purpose" and God is a party to your covenant, just as He covenanted with Abram and was faithful to His covenantal promise to those who loved Him as "Israel." Why did Israel seem to have such a "tough time of it?" "Stiff-neckedness" and "doing things their way instead of God's way." Plain and simple. It was disobedience and willful rebellion....in short USING their "feelings" to justify sin and disobedience instead of humble surrender to their LORD, just as we all do, and just as we all did that landed us in this mess of infidelity.

TD, the Prodigal Son, did the same...and God allowed him to "do his own thing" and to let his "feelings" control his actions while God waited for the day when the bottom was reached and he came out of the fog and realized that he was wallowing around with the pigs instead of receiving the blessings of "sonship." He realized how badly he had sinned and he was "broken." He went back to see if he could live with his father as a servant, not as a son. He received total forgiveness and restoration and began a "new life" as a restored and forgiven complete son who had learned a very hard lesson.

As for the faithful brother, he was justifiably angry that his brother seemingly had "gotten away with it." He, too, was reminded that neither stopped being a son, that all that the Father had was his, and that we all rejoice over the "return" of one who was lost when that one finally REPENTED.

TD, I have not yet heard your wife talk of repentance. She is "sorry," "not going back to an affair," "staying with you only for the children. Those are HER feelings, done in what SHE wants to do. But they are NOT surrender to God. And that is where she needs to begin BEFORE there is going to be any real progress in your marriage. IF she will not humble herself and repent to God, what would make you think that you would be "more important" to her than her opinion of God? Christians, by definition, accept Jesus Christ as BOTH Savior and Lord. That is HIS rightful place in our lives and it is HE who "sits on the throne" and is sovereign, not us.

So let's turn to your post and offer some comments and suggestions.




This is self-indulgent poppycock. It is taking the REAL concept of Emotional Needs and using them as an excuse either on purpose or in ignorance of truly understanding what they are and HOW one CHOOSES to meet them.

It also displays a lack of understanding of how God created "man" and "woman," so that you are allowing Satan to twist and bend the truth so he can lie to you.

Towards the end of the week, though, as I was seeing her respond, I started wanting her to meet my ENs. Dr. Harley would call it the Taker, but, I'll be honest, it was my "Old Man" or "Flesh" in Christian parlance. My filling of Crystal's ENs stopped being the pure gifts they were supposed to be and started become a bit sacrificial, and she could see that, I think, and she knew it was because I WANTED her to do for me.

Of course you wanted to make love to your wife. That's both normal and God-given. That is a major "WHY" God instituted the covenant of marriage. But you are now in a marriage "in crisis," and you, as the spiritual head of your household, need to put your wife's relationship with Christ FIRST right now. You do so in sacrificial love for God and for your wife. It is honoring YOUR marriage vows REGARDLESS of the circumstances BECAUSE you trust God, not your wife, not me, not any human.

HER reaction is only to be expected. NOT appreciated or desired. BOTH of you have your "guards up" to protect yourselves, the "Taker" that Harley talks about. In reality, your wife DOES NOT want you, much less want to make love to you. She is "there" for the children only, according to her.

TD, that "reason" is not enough for a marriage and IS in direct conflict with God's commands. BUT it also is "part and parcel" of the sin of adultery and the "blindness" that it causes. No doubt you were probably neglectful of HER emotional needs over the years. So was I and so did my wife use that as an "excuse" to disobey God and trash the seventh commandment. Humans are GOOD at rationalizing sin, we all do it. And some sins ARE "worse than others," and adultery is especially "bad." So much so that God gives the Faithful Spouse (that's you) the unequivocable right to divorce her and remarry without yourself committing a sin as a result. She does NOT have the "Right to Divorce" you, unless it is on the grounds of "marital unfaithfulness." So be careful.....as the Scripture warns us all, "be angry (righteous anger over sin against God, but do not also sin (by letting your emotions 'justify' committing sin in response).


I wasted such an opportunity, and destroyed a large portion of Crystal's new-found hope that there might be a chance to be happy with me. She's giving me another shot, but she's once again virtually hopeless, and I did that.

This your wishful thinking. Crystal has made it clear that there is no "new found hope" or "chance to be happy with you." She is there for the children only. That's NORMAL and "Par for the Course" at this stage of your efforts at recovery. It is "Crystal still thinking SHE is in charge and in control," when in reality it is God who is in control. "Letting" her be rebellious does NOT supplant the fact that God decides, not us. To use human terminology, He "gives us enough rope for us to hang ourselves," ala the Prodigal Son. God does NOT force us to obey, He simply says [color:"red"]"If you love me, you will obey what I command." [/color] (John 14:15 NIV)


So that I guess goes to why I have such a hard time backing down when an emotional issue is emergent. It's cancer, and I want it OUT.

Ahhh....so YOU decide the timing, not God. Very "surrendered" of you, wouldn't you agree? It's not that I disagree with your analogy, it's your insistance on YOUR way and YOUR timing that is potentially in opposition to God. In this instance we are talking about YOU and it has nothing to do with Crystal. Treating Cancer is a process, not a "once and done" thing. It DOES take time, even though we all want it out "NOW!!!!"


I guess the biggest thing I'm having difficulty letting completely go of is the pace.

Gee, I wonder how Abram and Noah and Joseph dealt with the "pace" of God's promise issue? TD, we ALL face this issue because we are FINITE and we measure the passage of time by OUR senses, not by God's will and purpose. YOU are God's representative in your marriage. Like it or not, you HAVE that responsibility and you are commanded to exercise that responsibility AS IF you were Christ, "doing what it takes, sacrificially, and in love, for HIS bride.

Get out of the sty and back on the road to restoration. It's not "beam me up, Scotty," it's "walking with Christ."




I understand this and all of us who have been on the Betrayed Spouse side of the recovery equation understand this emotional feeling. We ALL want the same. But it's unrealistic at this time. FEELINGS come last. Feelings come later. Feelings come AFTER the CHOICE is made and ACTIONS implemented to DO what was chosen.

TD, the reality, as hard as it is to hear, much less accept, is that the marriage you had IS dead. It is over. You are "married," but it is "name only," without substance. It is like saying your are a Christian, but refusing to BE a Christian in your words and actions because you DON'T believe and/or love God.

It is wanting "Fire Insurance," without having to "pay for it."

The "good news" is that you can have a better marriage than you had before, not "more of the same old, same old." Would you really want that "old marriage" anyway? Totally? Or do you want God's helpmeet for you, your equal, your completer, your wife?




At this point in time, TD, I am not interested in Crystal's submission the Lord. That will come if I ever get to talk with her. You cannot control her choices and her behavior, you LEAD by example. YOU submit your life to God and you follow Him in humble obedience to HIS commands to YOU and you let God "use all things to work good in the life of those who love Him."




"DOing" is NOT stupid. It is obedience to God's word. "Be ye doers of God's word, not just hearer's." In other words, don't just give "mental assent" to the "Rightness" of God's commands, put them into practice in YOUR life and let God make a "new creation" in you. THAT is the major role of the indwelling Holy Spirit, to guide you and lead you into all righteousness. THAT is the "path of Sanctification" that all Christians walk, conforming their lives to Christ throughout their entire lives. It's a "journey," not and instantaneous trip.




Uh huh. And you take great pride in your mental prowess, right? What's that old saying, "Pride cometh before the fall"?" That "powerlessness" feeling you have, where do you think it's coming from and why do you think it's there?

Where does Solomon say that the "beginning of wisdom" begins?

TD, God is NOT just working on Crystal. He is also working on you to help conform you to the image of Christ. Jesus HAD all the power and ability. He CHOSE to submit HIS will to the Father's will. Now isn't that something worth thinking about when we reflect on how WE should be "Christ's stand-in" in our marriages?

God is NOT going to be "Santa Claus" and just DO it all FOR you. He says, "OBEY." That is active and it requires actions on our part. It is not "mental surrender," as in giving up and USING that as an excuse NOT to work. It is "surrender" of our lives, our will, our pride, our emotions, TO God and ACTING on what God, who IS "in-control," has commanded us to DO.

TD, I both know and understand the mental anguish and torment you are feeling. NO ONE "likes" to go through this, but very few people like the "refining fire" of any trial or tribulation. But Romans 8:28 is God's assurance of the fact that He IS in control and HE is faithful, no matter what circumstances we are facing. HE faces them WITH us as both our Father and our Bridegroom. HE even carries us when we run out of our own strength and "restoreth my soul....."

Time. It will take time. Are you "in it" with God for eternity, or did you have some shorter time in mind before you "cast Him off and go your own way?"

God bless.

ForeverHers -

Wow. What you are saying is so dead on accurate. And to back it up with scriputre is amazing.

I'm glad you're reaching out to TD, and that he is listening. I can so very much identify with TD and Crystal. My wife and I are in a very similar spot right now, though things are not as tense between us as they appear to be between TD and Crystal.

Thank you for sharing with TD (and the rest of the MB folks). I realize you wrote this for TD, but if you don't mind I'd like to listen/follow along. I've learned a good deal of what you've posted the hard way in the last few weeks, but you've encouraged me and reaffirmed what God has been showing me (what He showed me all along and I was to stubborn/stupid to listen).

Wow... and I thought *I* wrote long replys! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

About our thoughts of leaving MB - It wasn't about us not being committed to saving our M, it was about us thinking that the forum was more destructive than constructive for us.

I guess I'm like a less successful St. Paul... That which I would not, that do I do... I choose to obey, and then find myself not obeying, and I have to repent again (and again).

I can't say for Crystal. I know she's struggling. I believe that her fears and past hurts are clouding her ability to trust that God will protect her if she submits to the plain language of the Bible. Again, what I know is that she's struggling and a big part of her *wants* to do the right thing.

You mentioned my W's repentance status. I really can't talk to it. I don't know exactly what her repentance status is, but I have theories, however, I don't want to be presumptious or anything else that may hurt or discourage her. Pray for her, please. As for what would make me think I'm "more important to her than her opinion of God," I don't. But I do think that living a life of repentance and forgiveness may help her risk opening up to me and to why I can live in a lifestyle of forgiveness. I've wanted to witness the benefits of repentance and forgiveness to her, but when I blew up at her, I damaged whatever witness I may have built-up to that point.

I kind of see it like the situation where Paul spoke of the unsaved spouse being sanctified through the union with the saved spouse so that the union itself was not unholy.

That's not entirely true. By Wednesday of last week she and I were cuddled up together, and she said that she thought maybe she didn't need to do any more appartment hunting, and that she was thinking she kinda liked having me around and could really get used to it in the long-term. To be honest, it was that... tentative agreement to the long term that got my hopes up that I would have my needs met. I know now she was trying to be honest about her feelings, but she wasn't trying to signal an actual decision to jump back into a full committment to the future of the marriage. NOW, however, she's giving me another shot at demonstrating that I'm different and giving herself a little more time to see if she's willing to have a change-of-heart primarily for our kids. That's why I injured her buddig hope... She had started to hope she could enjoy being with me, and now she barely has any hope that she can rebuild that hope, let alone the happiness.

As for the cancer analogy... I know of what I speak. I've had cancer twice. Both times, I had surgery to remove it, and then, when the doctors told me that I probably was cured because of the surgery, they would send me through a treatment process to make sure that the cure "stuck." However, you're right, and I do recognize that my desire to GET ON with the recovery, already, is sinful disregard of God's sovereignty, but that's what I tend to recognize after the fact, and rarely when the pain builds up.

You drew a distinction between restoring the marriage and it being dead and being given a new one. Not to sound disrespectful of your counsel, but that seems almost like a distinction without a difference. What I'm saying is that Whether you say "restoring the marriage to what it should have been all along" or "giving us a new marriage that is what it should have been to begin with," we're talking about a good and Godly marriage between Crystal and I.

I know. I know I can't control her, but I keep wanting to "help" her make the right decision... I know. That's a form of pride. I fell into it as I took my eyes off of Him. My *goal* was, and is, to be an example and to love her like Christ loves the church. It's one of those things that's far easier said than done. Like I said, I did well for a while, and then took my eyes off of Him, and all the balls dropped.

There was once a really stupid "quality expert" who came to a factory, and told everyone there how to never make another mistake. He said, "Can you go 1 minute without making a mistake?" The people answered, "Sure, we can do one minute." Then he said, "Well if you can do one minute, then you can do another, and another, and soon you've done a whole hour without a mistake. And if you can do an hour, you can do 2 hours, then 3, etc. Then you've done a whole day. If you can do an whole day, then just do that again the next day, and keep doing it!"

While true, it's not at all realistic. I know God forgives my failures when I repent. I need to have faith that He'll work on Crystal so that my failures don't become roadblocks to her walk.

To answer your final question... Yes, I'm in. At first, I was tempted to be a smart-alek and say "I was thinking about giving Him the first half of eternity, and then re-evaluating my options," but I thought better of it.

One final thought... You wrote about our circumstances:
As I read this, I the words "West Virginia" popped into my head... I have *no* idea why that would be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ssssshhhhhh, everyone. Quiet.

As I read this thread, I hear a voice I recognize. This is the Lord talking. FH, continue to let Him talk through you. All of us, especially Christians, should take heed to what FH is writing here. This IS from the Lord!

I will sit back down now, lean back, grab a cold Coke...and wait for more. There is a time to talk...and there is a time to listen. I am all ears!

In His arms.

wow.. wonderful stuff FH.

TD, just quick couple of comments right now because I have to get ready for some appointments this afternoon and evening. I will respond more fully before too long.



Well now....welcome to the life of all Christians. Ever wonder why Jesus told Peter to forgive "seventy times seven times?" We are not yet glorified and God is chipping away at us to release the beauty hidden within. Sometimes He uses a fine sculptor's hammer and chisel, and sometimes, when there's a lot to chip away before getting the beauty locked inside to be exposed to the light of day...He uses a Jackhammer. It's all in using the appropriate tool for the moment.




No doubt it is a very similar struggle to what my wife faced when she decided to "try," only we were much more "gone" and "hopeless" than you two. Take that simply to mean that there IS reason for hope. That reason is God is bigger and better than all of us combined.




TD, we are back to "seventy times seven times." It applies as a command to ALL Christians, not just one of the marriage partners. Forgiveness MEANS it's not "fatal."
So, "damaged" is perhaps accurate, but not broken beyond repair. God IS the "Master Potter," and if HE doesn't like what is forming, He will break it down and start again with same lump of clay. It may take a little longer to get the exact vessel He wants, but HE knows just how to do it and what is "acceptable." We, learn to not fight Him so much with our "living clay."

You also wrote, "the words "West Virginia" popped into my head... I have *no* idea why that would be."

I'd have to guess that it's because most Southerners tell "West Virginia" jokes.....like what do you get with 32 young ladies from West Virginia?

Answer is hidden here => [color:"white"]A full set of teeth. [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


More later.

God bless.

FH,

Sorry, I missed a probing question in my previous response.


That question cought me a little off-guard. Normally I think about things like that, really, I do... I'm quite the geek.

Anyway, I guess I don't know, exactly. Fear, perhaps. Obviously it indicates a part of my heart that I haven't given over to my faith. I guess it exists because I WANT to force a result, but I have no way to accomplish what I so desperately want.

Thank you for asking that question.

And yes, I know that the "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..." (Psalms 111:10, and Prov. 9:10). And I know that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. But, though somewhat less Biblical, it IS true that when you're a hammer, everything in the world looks like a nail. It's very difficult to know when to step out of your arena of strength so that God can move in a different way.

ahhhhhhh grasshopper.....why do you think Peter began to sink into the water and WHAT did Jesus DO and SAY? Then, once you've answered that question and thought about it a little, place your answer and thoughts into Philippians 4:5-9

STOP! Sit down. This is a moment when God is going to speak to you in the stillness of your soul. I KNOW it. "Be still, and know that I am God." Is ANYTHING too hard for the Lord?

God bless.

TD,

As I had just posted that i was just going to sit back and listen to the Lord speak thru FH...I did want to respond to your latest post on one issue.

FH asked where do you believe the powerlessness comes from. And in your long answer, you came VERY, VERY close to the truth. And the one word that got you close to the truth is "fear." So, I would add the next question, TD...who is the author of fear?

Please remember, fearing the Lord is NOT the same thing as being fearful or scared or angry. Fearing the Lord is having the right reverence and awe of Him.

The fear that makes you feel powerless is not the same. Remember, you "FEEL" powerless!!!

So, the questions I would ask you (and hopefully I am expounding on what FH was getting to) is this:

Who is the author of fear?
If you feel powerless, are you ACTUALLY powerless??
If not, then who is the author of this confusion?

Hint....it isnt your wife!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

In His arms.

FH, you might not get this till later.

One thing you mentioned was:

I know. Again, this is one of the things that I can't control. How does one teach forgiveness? In my family, we grew up not holding on to grudges. There was not a single extended family member that was considered a persona non grata. Crystal's family was the opposite. I don't think it's an LB to say that, because she's basically said the same thing on any number of her posts. Crystal doesn't know HOW to forgive, even though she sincerely *wants* to forgive. The pain doesn't end for her when she chooses to forgive. I see her trying, but I believe what happens is that she just suppresses her feelings after she says she's forgiven. That's why I am so disappointed in myself. I do believe that God was using my obedience to gently invite Crystal into a place where she would let Him begin to heal her, but my selfishness got in the way, and I damaged that progress.

I know that nothing's impossible for Him, so I don't believe it's hopeless. I guess that's another reason, although I could have walked away without it being a sin, I didn't. I remember the unfaithfulness of Israel, and how God portrayed himself as a BH. He could have tossed Israel, because He had more than adequate grounds, but He always worked to bring her woo her back. When all this hit the fan this summer, that's the thought that came to mind... I could divorce without blame, but God didn't give up on His Bride, and Christ hasn't given up on the Church, who was I to turn my back on my wife when God has always been blameless, but I can't pretend to be.

Mortarman...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Man, oh man, I HAVE to get ready for those appointments!!!


Here's your answer:

Forgiveness is not feeling first either. It is fundamentally a promise. When you put your faith in Christ as your Savior, God promised to remember your sins against you no more. That does not mean that He forgets; God never forgets anything. What it means is that He never brings up those sins to use them against you again. When you forgive one another, therefore, you are promising to do three things about his wrong doings. You promise:

1. I shall not use them against you in the future.

2. I shall not talk to others about them.

3. I shall not dwell on them myself.

Just as the only way to begin to feel right toward another is to being to do right toward him, so the only way to feel properly toward another, and ultimately even to forget those wrongs that he has done to you, is to keep the threefold promise that you make when you say ‘I forgive you.’ You see, you don’t have to feel forgiving in order to grant forgiveness; you just have to forgive. Against all feelings to the contrary, Christ told us that we must forgive a brother seven times a day if he comes saying ‘I repent’ (Luke 17:4). Does that clarify things for you?”
(What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour? , by Jay E. Adams)

God bless.

MM,

I'm going to try to be careful with my answer here...

Who is the author of fear?

If the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, then Fear is not wrong, in and of itself.

I guess there's a fear that opens one's eyes, and there's a fear that blinds. A Fear of the Lord is one that opens your eyes.

I suspect you're getting at Satan being the father of lies, and such. I think that with a sinful nature, I don't always need to blame Satan, but who knows, perhaps he has decided to personally interfere with my marriage.

Sin separates... us from God, us from us. Sin destroys empathy, and so being alone and not feeling our impact on the other, fear builds up as circumstances roll against us and the one who seems to be driving the action is set apart from you by a chasm, and can't feel or care about how you're hurting.

Fear that blinds builds up with the destruction of the delusion of control.

Am I "powerless"? I don't know how to answer that. Perhaps it's too much law school. To the extent that I cannot make the result I want happen through my own efforts, when another person is involved and her voluntary participation is an element of the desired result, I AM powerless. But to the extent that I can FORCE some sort of result that in some ways resemble what I want, then I'm not powerless. If I could get my wife to debate the pros and cons, I KNOW I could win... if she follows the rules of debate, and agrees to follow the conclusion of the debate... But that pits my skills at debate against hers, and disregards her feelings and her voluntary engagement in the work.

I know that God has given me the intellectual gifts that have made me a strong debater, so it's tough to let go, because that's a tool I know how to use on my own.

But whether or not I have power that I can command isn't the point. Jesus had no lack of power, but he hubled himself to do the Father's work. He used relationships and teaching to impact others but honored their choices. So, even though I have some "power" I should be, in and of myself, powerless... meek.

Geez... Seeing the parallels and understanding truths is almost as frustrating as not knowing. How does one live rightly? One day at a time. I know. And that's part of the problem. To whom much is given, much is required. I know I've been given the ability to see solutions and understand meanings more clearly than most, so I know I won't be able to claim ignorance as a mitigating factor for almost anything I've done wrong. I've read the Bible... I have no excuse... Virtually every failure counts as willful.

On the one hand, I can almost feel myself growing, as I think through these things, but I feel more convicted, too.

You also asked who is the author of confusion. Of course, that's not my wife... It was a collaborative effort of my 3 DDs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Again, two different "fears." Fear of the Lord is different than being fearful.


Perhaps? Perhaps? TD, Satan and his demons are crawling all over your household...just as they have crawled all over mine. Since you are the spiritual head of your household, you had best not turn your back on the enemy. Sure, there are things that you do that are all yours. But please do not discount Satan's role in any of this. He is VERY MUCH involved!


Okay. But who is authoring this script that you outlined above. Remember, nothing happens in a void! Nothing in Creation is neutral. It is either of God, or it is of Satan.


I think you have this a little off, TD. Loss of control is NOT a bad thing, and it isnt something to be feared. Lsoing control to the Lord is a good thing. When you fear losing control, that is of Satan. His hands are all over that one!


But why would you want to make the result the way YOU want it? Havent you already said that you have screwed up before? Anyone wanna bet that you will screw up again? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> This is the type of control that MUST be lost, TD. It is a GOOD thing that TD does not get his way! It is a bad thing when TD does not do it God's way.


Here you go! This is why you cornered your wife and wouldnt let her out. Dont you see? the FORCE you talk about is the product of you feeling powerless. When you force your will, it is the antithesis of power.


Who said anything about winning??? As Steve Harley said to me once...do you want to be right or do you want to be mmarried? If you want a debate partner, then go join a debate team. If you want a wife, then you had best chaneg yoru attitude! Let me ask another question here..since you are supposed to be the leader here. Is this the way Christ does it? Does He force Himself on us? Does He debate us so that He can win and get His way? I think you know the answer to this, TD. Trying to "win" is not of Christ. And as I said before, if it isnt of Him, then it has to be from whom?


Your strengths are your downfall, TD!!! They were mine too. Want a little secret? You will find God in your weaknesses, as that is where He can work. We in our pride say "Well, I'll do what I can do and leave the rest to God." But God says "You can do nothing except thru Me." These gifts you have are imprisoning you, and are being used to beat down your wife. I know!!! My ability to speak and debate often overwhelmed my wife. She used to call it "steam rolling" her. TD, your strength is in your weaknesses! I want to hear where your weaknesses are. It is THERE that you may find your marriage...and yoru wife.


But you are not meek. You have tried, and continue to try, to force yourself and your will on this marriage! Again, I know because I also did the same. Jesus humbled Himself because He knew the truth. He knew that the Father could be trusted. He knew that the Father would not let Him down. He trusted that if He went to the Cross, bled and died...that the Father would have enough love for Him to raise Him up out of that tomb.

I do not see that in your posts, TD. I see you using your "gifts" in order to make things your way. And sometimes, the things you want are inline with what the Bible says and what God wants. But that doesnt mean that you are following Him.


There is no confusion in the Lord. Again, who is the author of confusion? If you are confused, then who might it be that is talking to you?


TD, I truly am not beating up on you! So when I say this next thing, please know that this comes from a brother in Christ, okay?? TD, that paragraph was so full of TD-centered" statements, that all I can see is "pride." Didnt Christ say that the lowest among us would be the greatest in Heaven? Did He not preach that you are to become your wife's servant, because to be a leader, you must be a servant? I'll expound more in a minute.


Believe me, I know the confusion three kids can create!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

TD, as I have read all of yoru threads, and specifically this one, I feel that you still are not getting it. Believe me when I say this, as it took me awhile to truly get it. I thought I knew. I was Biblically smart. I wasnt committing adultery, as my wife was. I was trying to live life the way God commanded. And I was still as wrong as my wife!!!!!!!

I think TD you need to slow down here a minute. Stop talking so much. Listen to what the Lord is trying to tell you. This life is NOT about you! It is about Him.

Stop trying to show what you know in the Bible or in your own knowledge...and listen for a minute.

You know, there are many people that work at the White House and know President Bush. they see and talk to him everyday. But does that mean they have a personal relationship with him? Like Mrs. Bush has? Like his daughter's have?

I have no doubt that you know Christ? But I can see you being right where I was a few years ago. Running around with my "White House access pass" talking about how much I know God. But was I his personal friend? Did I know him as my Father? Had I sat in His lap and called Him "Abba" (Daddy)?

The power I speak of is that of Christ. If you have that relationship with Him, you can go forward with His ring, representing Him. And with His ring, you have His power. And with His power, you cannot lose! With your own, you will always lose...even if you think you are winning!

Keep posting.

In His arms.

MM,

Your response seemed a bit rough under the circumstances, but I know you're offering your advice to help.

I know there are two different types of fear, and yet they are both considered "fear" so I attempted to discern a difference in effect that would be indicititive of a different cause.

This may very well be true, at least to the extent that I have no doubt that unclean spirits have attempted to find ways to destroy our marriage and harm our kids. Do I think Satan, himself has been directly involved, or even gets personally briefed on the progress... No. He's not infinite.

Even assuming that our house is crawling with demons, what I've read of them is that they have strength where we let sin sit un-repented, and wounds un-forgiven.

As for sin separating and who's authoring the script... I believe that Sin is a violation of the spiritual laws that are immutable, and like gravity is to us. Satan doesn't have to create the separation that follows sin, that's a natural result of sin. Satan doesn't have to micro-manage every sinful interaction once the ball is rolling, people will tend to seek their own pleasure and advancement without regard to others. I'm not saying it's neutral, I'm only saying that once something's on the downward slope it stays headed downward, and doesn't need to be actively pushed by anyone else.

You're right! However, the forced destruction of one's delusions IS fearful and painful. Dismantling your own delusion of control so that you you can be lead easily by the Lord is liberating. It's when you *think* you're in control and all heck breaks lose despite your best efforts, that fear tends to set in. (Think "black ice on a tight corner"... in an instant, your belief in your ability to control your direction disappears.)

Touche... Point taken. I'm not arguing in favor of how I behaved, I'm merely describing how I've acted.


Well... That's why I put it in here. I'm not defending what I did, I'm acknowledging that what I did was wrong, not only because it didn't work but because it started out wrong. Yes, feelings of powerlessness do lead people to trying to impose their will through any number of wrong means. Intimidation, emotional blackmail, violence... all of them are attempts to manipulate and all of them are wrong.


I get it. Hindsight is 20/20. It's difficult to not see things as win/lose when you are on one side of the argument and your spouse is on the other.

I would like to posit that re-hashing my failures isn't terribly productive. I get that I failed the "Who's acting like Jesus?" contest on Saturday.


Yes and no. I was given strengths for a reason, but, it's true that when I must function in my weakness, I need to depend on God to get anywhere. Strengths, with pride are definitely a recipe for disaster, but merely because someone has a strength, does not mean that they, therefore cannot be used by God with that strength. In fact, I believe it's is more likely than not that God gives people strengths because the strength is related to the purpose He has for that person. But I do get your point.

NOTE: I said I *should* be meek, I did not say that I *am* meek. I mentioned how Jesus went about making a difference to illustrate that I do, in fact, get that the way I was doing things wasn't the right way.

NOTE: I said "frustration" not "confusion."

I don't want to argue with you on the rest. I believe you're reading some improper intent into what I wrote. Am I "getting it"? I don't know. Bit by Bit, I think maybe. Do I "have it"? Probably not.

If you have read all of my threads, then you'll know that I don't claim to be less to blame for the state and condition of our marriage. In fact, I accept that as the head of the household, I have a greater responsibility to God for its state and condition, so, if anything, I'm more to "blame."


Some hear the Lord easily, and some have to be beaten over the head. I'm trying to move into the "fewer-beatings-required" class, but I don't know if I've been promoted. You also asked if I have a true personal relationship with God... Yes. I let it slide for a long time, but I am getting back to a real relationship with Him. It's been a long quiet time for me. This has to do with the undiagnosed depression that I had which was mentioned in some previous posts. When I was 15, I had my first bout with cancer, and I didn't know how to process it, so, since I KNEW that God doesn't make mistakes, then I figured I deserved it, and I didn't know how to have a personal relationship with Him. He was the distant boss who directs things, and I was a peon who didn't deserve answers. That is, till this Summer. When I finally got treated for my depression, I realized how screwed up my perspective was, and so I've been re-creating a closer relationship with Him.

Don't take that as an excuse... Just an explanation for why I was the way I was, not that it was right.


Are you going to be changing your screen name to "Frodo"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />