RC,

I feel hesitant to post to you because you've had MelodyLane, Pepperband, and other topnotchers give you the answers you sought, but you chose not to take them.

I respect that you do not believe what they believed. When I read why you believed differently, which I interpreted was because you can't control the response you get, so you don't take a certain action, I feel fearful of being of any aid to you.

Now you are asking for more input. My WH's A did not end as Dr Harley described. It was cut short, by my WH's choice. He did not allow me to meet his ENs. He did not like my questions regarding his A...he wanted to move on desperately, once he made his decision to stay in the marriage. He was wary of changes in myself, feared more suffering and pain with me. Thought only good thoughts of OW and saw himself as accepting of her shortcomings. He told me details in small spurts, weeks apart, so that I didn't even know the extent of it for three months. He mourned her in front of me. Not a lot of fun.

He worked with the OW, also, for two and half months after "breaking up". He broke no contact three or four times with personal conversations.

My H used porn, eating and spending to distract from pain. He felt he was incapable of sharing who he was with me. He was layered up in self-dishonesty, distractions and pain. He's not now.

Is this similar to your situation? Could I be of help?

I'm not sure. I haven't made it to where I can share with someone what worked for me, got us to a new marriage, and have my beliefs thrown out. I guess I have to be more respectful and I'm not there yet.

Let me know,

LA

lovinganyway, thanks for writing to me. it does help a good deal and sounds so similar to my M. i do not intend to come off as if i do not respect the opinions of others. i do. however i've found it hard to complete some of the steps that are mentioned by fellow posters. it has felt like a burden that i couldn't shake because ws wasn't willing to cooperate with me. also there are other consequences that i fear would cause a problem for my family.

i would appreciate your sharing what part you may feel comfortable with but i do realize you are hesitant.

i too, feel that my ws is hiding who he is from me. i believe my past LB has contributed to him feeling that he couldn't act himself around me or share certain things with me. also, at one time i wasn't sure if i wanted to be with him. it has taken some redirection for me to get more serious about us. i've blamed him also for so much that was really in my control to change.

anyway, i realize that the way he thinks about life and feeling a woman or something has to take care of him is probably what has gotten him to where he is, we are. he also has problem with overspending, porn and sometimes alcohol.

right now i do believe a is over. ws has told me that he see changes in me and is happy about them. however i'm wanting reassurances that i don't think he wants to give right now. he is acting transparent in some things but i do not know if this is a cover up. also he works with ow and needs to be placed away from her.

again i appreciate your reply lovinganyways. i feel that you probably understand better the situation i'm going through. i'm trying to find a route that will help. thanks.

RC,

Would you mind then doing a little Policy of Joint Agreement with me, then, before I post more?

I want to be enthusiastic about how I can show you what I did that contributed to where I am today. When I am hesitant, that's a signal, not something to be put aside or ridden over.

I will gladly share with you. Here is what my signal says:

I'm not really good with stating my beliefs with a gloved hand. I am committed to being respectful and not to attack anything you think or feel. I fear you feeling attacked by what I might say.

I do not fear your judgment, lack of approval or acceptance of me. I do fear you deleting your posts...I'm really sensitive to rejection. That's my problem, not yours!

My proposal is that you click on my screen name and read some of my posts to others and see if you would feel attacked in their shoes--or blamed, degraded or find condenscion (I don't think I'm spelling that word correctly).

I hear openness and honesty in you trying to find a route that will help you. I read that you are making changes in yourself and they're visible ones. Sounds to me like you are committed to being aware of yourself and your life and knowing how you contribute. Takes guts to be here, posting, asking and bumping. None of those things would keep me from posting to you.

What do you think?

LA

I think it is a good idea to adhere to the "policy of Joint Agreement. I think it is protection for both of us. I just ask that you say straighforward what you think but without insult or intolerance.

I will try to watch out for what you say when you talk about the signals. I don't want to block you with negative attitudes or behavior in response to something that you may have to say.

I am trying to put things together. I'm in the process of reviewing you previous post. Was there a thread that you authored. If so, what is the title of it?

I'll be totally frank working on M is difficult. I'm feeling frustrated about so many things. I feel I'm trying to change so many things at one time.

I find it difficult to concentrate on me, my household, trying to take care of him, trying to take care of kids. I am concerned about having relations with WS when he has acted like an I. I'm concenred that maybe I should treat him not harsh but in a way that is impersonal. Yet we have daily dealings with each other. Things are going nice between us but How do I know when he sees OW again if all this will change. I'm having to concentrate on trying to make self improvements and not be bothered about really what he thinks about me. Afterall, he really didn't give a care about how I felt when he did what he did. Yet if I act inconsiderately it is LB. I'm annoyed with so many rules. How does one act more independently of WS once A is over? How can one just move on with themselves? How can one just please themselves and have a t'the heck with WS like attitude"? In a way I want to show him revenge. Make him eat dirt, so to speak. But I realize this isn't the best way to handle the matter either. I don't know. Just feels confused, frustrated, bothered.

I haven't authored a thread, I don't think, except for getting others to notice a poster and asking them to respond.

Reading through my responses to AdrianC, HopingFor, bitter2sweet, etc., I look at love busters and not just eliminating them, but getting to underneath where you allowed them in yourself and how they benefited you. I believe in eliminating love busters to ourselves when we stop lovebusting others.

From your last post, I hear that you believe that you have to change in a lot of ways at once, know all the rules, the shoulds and should-nots to protect yourself from being hurt again this way. Have I heard you correctly?

If I did, sounds like you would like a plan to follow, step by step, some clear structure and a place to take your breath; a pace that is reasonable, with clear lines and comprehension.

We can do that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Hi LA. I think you hit it on the nail. I would like to focus on making changes at a pace. Also, I'm trying to fight with the feelings of rejection that WS portrayed by going after OW. While he was in the A, he was very unkind. I was pregnant with our child. Instead of him expressing how he loved me and our baby he sent me flowers with a card that didn't express love or anything. Yet, he was able to tell the OW all these wonderful things.

Later I came to find out that he was with another woman which was my susupicion in the first place. This is only a sample of the bad feelings that I have toward him.

How do I do things in such a way that it helps me feel empowered and not like I'm trying to please someone who doesn't deserve pleaseing? Maybe this is the wrong focus on my part.

Would you like to begin with resentment, rejection, expectations? Self-doubt? Self betrayal? Or something older, maybe...being a pleaser, a fixer, entitlement?

Your choice. Humans are smorgasboards. Take your pick.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

hi la. i would like to start with resentment and entitlement.

RC,

Resentment and entitlement. Good choices. They are cousins, you know.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Will you read this thread Our Resentments and tell me what you think about the exercise I present? If we begin there, which is where I started, then I can walk you through my own recovery. Whatever you need, take it, and leave the rest, 'k?

Entitlement...

What is your belief in how the world works? Do you believe you earn love? That you should treat others as you deserve to be treated? That if you are a good person, then you will feel good about yourself? Tell me your perspective.

LA

You deleted your initial posts on this thread so I am gonna jump in on this question.

You don't try to please the WS or WS type attitude. You work on your improvements regardless of how the WS views them. You s/b concerned with your H's POV NOT the WS POV or babble.

Have you read His Needs/Her Needs? Seems like you need to familarize yourself with the basic communication differences generally between men vs women and then learn how to handle the WS vs your H.

Please read the thread in my sig line about the 5 stages of grieving. It may help you understand where your frustration lies and what c/b ahead. It will also help you put things into a more tolerable perspective.

You can't control a WS but you can control how you handle him/it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

LA and Orchid,I appreciate your post which address what I'm feeling right now. it is like I'm angry all over again. This is our second go around and I feel like amazed that my S has been WS twice. There is like something in my thoughts that just refuses to go along until we are working on some type of plan. I found out that he is registered with an online site where he has put in a profile of the type of woman he wants. Funny, the woman of choice doesn't describe me. I think he added it before I confronted him. But I still feel angry.

I'm starting to have self-pity episodes and I really don't like how that feels. And it is like all of sudden I feel the need to protect myself. I realize this is all emotional but thre are times where I wish I would just dv him then there are times when i feel like maybe it could work out.

sometimes i think he is a total idiot. he has mentioned taking me to a place that used to be just ours until he told her he wanted to take her there and do all this crap and so on, then he has the unbelieveable confidence to ask me recently if I wanted to go there. what an A*&! (BTW the reverse babble is good, orchid) is he really clueless that i wouldn't want to go there anymore? or maybe i'm too emotional. i need to be able to see my way clear.

also, ws has been away from work where ow is. he will be returning there soon. i'm just leery about facing this all over again and the thought of him seeing her and comparing me and all this as if i havent been through enough. anyway after an episode on yesterday he has been trying to pacify me. I don't want to be pacified. I want a good man and a good M. surely it couldn't be this diffcult to have one.
sorry i'm venting. thanks for the replies and thoughts.

LA thanks for the resentment exercise. i'm putting some thngs down now. won't this mak eme more angry than i was already?

Anger and resentment are close cousins, but different information. Anger tells you that your WH has crossed your boundaries or failed an expectation you had. Once you know which one, you can take steps to either enforce your boundary or examine your expectation.

This resentment exercise was my way to get to know the difference between anger and resentment. I had no boundaries before and in coming to understand and create them, this was essential.

Do you try to manage your feelings? More anger, not good; more happy, good? For me, when I feel strongly, I look at the why and find out where it is coming from...break it down. In this very action, the emotion subsides quite a bit. Maybe I'm just distracting from it, but it feels to me like when I pay attention and get the information, it doesn't have to be as powerful or overwhelming as when I ignore it or feel I don't want to feel that.

I think you're doing some of that process here, with venting, saying what hurts and appalls you. You can take those a step further and say what you expect "I expect my WH not to be wayward. To learn from his past infidelity and not to do it again. I feel disrespected, used...(insert what you feel here) and am angry he crossed that boundary. His wanting to take OW to our special place feels like...to me. I expect him to cherish and hold sacred that place because of what it means to me."

What was your recovery like from his first A?

I was really angry when I did the resentment timeline, and I don't do anger well (feels the same as pain), so I don't know if I could even gauge more anger.

The resentment exercise is one of empowerment and self-honesty...it may make you more angry, terribly shamed or guilty, increase regret--don't know. Your experience will be yours. What the goal is to free you from leftovers that aren't applicable in the present, help you create and communicate boundaries and standards, and allow love to resurface in a clean way. That's how it worked for me.

LA

LA, thanks so much for your reply. It helps me better clarify how I feel and about what.

I did the exercise and came to realize that I felt resentment about many things. I also came to realize that some things were petty. While other things were more serious and need attention. I'm wondering how to deal with explaining the more serious things to WS.

I understand though that some things I have to do better about making myself happy about.

How did I handle the last A? Well, not too good. I hadn't really gotten over it. I feel that he has repeatedly gone over my boundaries, but I've found it difficult to explain to him that he is going over them. Take for example. I've explained to him that I want him to allow me to be his friend. I'd like him to talk to me about how he feels about OW if emotions arise. However he doesn't. Because it has been difficult for us to discuss this face to fave I've sent him emails and he ignored them. Yet he replied faithfully to OW's emails.

Besides, this, I'm thinking from the steamy communication that was going on between them he probably misses or maybe missed her but he will not tell me he does. He doesn't understand that the more he is quiet the less I trust him b/c I feel that he is trying to hide something.

The biggest violation of my trust, when I told him that I knew about it, I can't believe that he wouldn't tell me the truth. But that he actually went to the OW and told her immediately. Also he snuck around with information on him about her. How can I ever really trust him?

At the end of the last post you talked about how the goal is to help new feelings resurface and get rid of what is left behind. Ok, I'm having daily problems with having a feeling of good-will toward WS. In my mind I find myself thinking negative of him. So when I see him it is hard to smile at him. I understand that he was suffering in our M also, but I guess I am in like a cycle of bad thoughts about him. I think I constantly see myself as being hurt.

Also, I ask about what happened often. There are so many unanswered questions. Thanks again for your encourage in your replies LA and the exercises.

I will do the next part of the exercise that you mentioned about what my expectations are. I think this will help me better explore what id going on on the inside. Again, thanks for the post and excercises.

From the exercise...

"that I felt resentment about many things"

So you now know that you have a payoff in resentment, right? You have a lot of them, probably often, from tiny ones to big ones. There is something in feeling resentment that gives you another feeling you really enjoy. Can you find that feeling and identify it?

The big things you describe are not resentment, IMO. That is anger...your WS not changing from his As violates your expectations for remorse, awareness, understanding, recommitment to you and a plan for protecting the marriage. Not fulfilling each of your expectations will result in your anger.

Are your expectations reasonable for YOUR marriage? Did you feel protected, cherished, considered, respected and accepted by your H pre 1st A? After 1st A, did he meet all those expectations I listed above? Did you get MC? IC? What changed in YOU from his 1st A..and what changed in him?

Communication is a big part of marriage...did that change from pre-1st-A to post? How 'bout this time?

See, we make and grow our own resentment for a reason. Someone may fail our expectations, but they are our expectations. We can only control ourselves...that is all humans are able to do. They cannot control someone else. We may attempt to manipulate another person, but that person makes choices. You do, too. You choose how you act (or react). Now an A is a manipulative beast...due to deception, you limit the choices another one has in their life through lack of information. Lying by omission. That was what all that to do was about you not informing OWH. See, you lied to him by omission.

You chose not to reveal to OMH because you were reacting to the fear of his reaction. That means that you want to control another person and until you are sure of the reaction you want, you don't reveal truth to them. This is the code you've been living by. This does not make you a bad person or defective. It is how you choose in your life. As long as you examine and own that this is what you choose, I'll respect that.

Some of your anger is old...your H crossed your boundary of fidelity and you took him back without any of those expectations above being met. Resentment for that can be anger turned inward at YOU. Yes, you did not protect, cherish, consider, respect and accept yourself after his 1st A...you expected him to do those things. It is your commitment to your self to do the very things that you expect of others. You did not enforce your boundaries. This is not manipulation. What did you promise yourself you would do if your H ever cheated AGAIN on you?

Are you fulfilling your own self promise?

We make resentments from our own choices...but they look like anger at the other person's choices.

You make your own protection from infidelity by following Dr Harley's four rules...and in order to follow them, you have to learn respectful communication, eliminating lovebusters and changing yourself.

Tell me how you changed after his 1st A...

In your posts that you left up, I hear that you fear a lot of stuff...you can actually resent your H for making you fear (is this reasonable to you?); you fear talking to your H...I get this from you not knowing how to explain things to him, or being able to make yourself heard and understood; you want to know how to make recovery happen. All these are fear-based.

What would you do if you weren't afraid?

You might make a lot of resentment to feel entitled, worthy, deserving of your expectations...if you feel fear a lot, then resentment feels ten times better...fear is cold, like falling through clammy air with no bottom; resentment is warm, testy, justified and right. Between the two, I agree one looks so much better for me. Neither are. They are poison to your life.

Expand your choices.

Your jealousy of OW is within your control...that speaks about you. Important information. Is your believe that you earn love, have to better than others to be loved by your H, excel or accomplish to be prized or cherished? If these are your beliefs, then it would follow that you also believe that you can be replaced.

You feel compared to OW. You feel you fail that comparison because you view his choices to do for her what he won't do for you...is about you. You create a lot of resentment on this one...until you look at the reality...it says nothing about you and everything about him.

In the resentment exercise, looking at all of them, in detail, you find your choice to resent and that you took it. It was not done to you.

When we don't recognize our choices in things, we give away our power. And when we don't see our own, then we don't recognize others' choices. We live disrespectfully.

Each time you do not have consequences for your boundaries (progressive ones), you are betraying yourself, though all your anger may tell you he is doing that. You only have control over the anger you have for yourself.

You cannot make your H your friend. You can choose to be a great friend to H. You can be safe by being respectful, a good listener, knowing you're seperate from him and not being responsible for his feelings and thoughts.

His choice to allow you to be friend and wife.

Your part is to state your thoughts and feelings in "I" statements. You be open and honest. That doesn't mean he will. Remove your belief in that disrespectful judgments (DJs) are allowed and profit you. Stop assuming why your H thinks/acts the way he does...allow no mindreading.

These steps are huge because they stop us from expecting, which in turns stops the anger from others failing our expectations. Clarifies our boundaries and leaves the choice of our actions obvious.

I hear you did not fully "get over" from his last A. What did you expect to get over?

You couldn't believe that your H lied about this A. Why did you believe he would not lie when he did about his 1st A? Again...this is about you and what you believe and why.

This is not an attack. What within you do you do to soothe, erase, comfort and support yourself and are those healthy and realistic?

You will not feel good things for your H when you feel so badly about your choices and actions. As long as you feel he makes you this way, you will have no power to change. As long as you maintain that your life is controlled by his choices, you will have no power and will rely on newly created resentments to FEEL like you have power.

My guess is that you constantly see yourself being hurt because you do not own your power. When you live this way, you are continually hurting yourself. Your emotions are handing you this information, but if you believe the source is outside of yourself, then you are helpless and trapped within it.

This is a lot at once, and I apologize for my lack of brevity and concise thought. I've got my own shortcomings, too. I appreciate you digging through this post. Go back now and study your resentment timeline. If you read anything that did not have a choice for you in it, then pull that out and post it. We'll find your choice, your power. Also, to help with your emotional levels, when you re-read your timeline, if images flicker in your mind of older stuff...things pre-husband, then write those down. This would be seperating the automatic ("I always feel this way when this happens") from the actual incident.

Thank you for taking care of yourself in this way. The effort, feelings and time. When I worked through this, I look back and feel as if it was my best investment of energy and anguish in my life.

LA

RC,

I see you were posting when I was working on your post!

"I've been continuing to work on resentment exercise. It helps me to feel I'm being heard when I do them. Often times, I feel that I cut my thoughts short in an effort to just deal with how I'm feeling and move on. I don't htink that helps me though. I feel that exploring the resentment adn the reasons why help me to at least feel that I'm hearing myself if WS doesn't."

I think this is tremendous. Look what you realized...that you cut your thoughts short and move on...to mitigate your feeings. Wow. That is a big discovery and answers part of my question about what you do to protect, comfort, etc.

That and you hearing yourself. That's amazingly important, too. Wow. Fast learner. You were so ready for all these. No wonder you were feeling overwhelmed with where to start...you were bursting from the INSIDE.

You go, girl. Honestly. Wow.

LA

I read your other post in Negotiating in Marriage. Thought you might want to come back here.

You wonder at the end of your last post if you maybe you should just work on you and not keep looking/expecting him to change. You seemed very clear in your description of your present marriage and what needs to be done.

Your relapses are human. You have been in your habits all of your life and they feel comfortable to you...even destructive things will feel comfortable because they feel known and usual.

Changing that is scary.

If you're up for it...stay here. Work it out here, on this thread. If you're not, I understand.

Others are having a lot of the same issues...threads you can read... ConfusedAgain, TexGal2 are two I can mention. They are looking a really understanding themselves and changing their patterns, habits. Confusedagain is even already reaping rewards from it.

Focus has to remain on yourself though.

LA

LA, thank you for the insight in your replies and support. Thanks for the encouragement about me understanding at least one aspect about learning to hear myself. I think everything in this situation seems so streeful and urgent that it keeps you from feeling you can focus on yourself or that you have time to.

I will stay in this area for now b/c I'm finding the support that I've needed here in posting with you and the many others that have lent a hand.

The work on resentment is really helping me. Im starting to feel more freedom and more ability to cope but I know there will continue to be work along the way. I'm up for it. I'm re-reading your thrid post up. It has great tidbit to concentrate on. thanks again.

After you read it, let me know...

Do you believe you benefit yourself through the resentments you create?

Try to answer the questions I posed about your expectations.

And how you communicate...

Concentrating on these things...bit by bit...will reduce the stress you feel and urgency to action...no good action is taken without a lot of contemplation.

LA