LA, thanks for the clarification on the warning. I will take heed to it. I like it. Is something I'm learning to do.

I'm reading and re-reading your post. Your post have shed so much light on things and helps me know that someone else relates to where I am, which is a comfort in itself.

I want to make sure I understand the listen and repeat much. much better. Thank you for your help.

You're welcome, LLG...my pleasure and privilege to answer what you ask.

LA

Hi LA.

I have another question. My H and I talked about the NC email to send to the other female that had been trying to recontact him.

He said he was going to do it. I asked him if he had a draft. he said no. I asked him since he had a little time if we could go ahead and do it now. He said yes. He tells me what he wants to say ang to send it. I feel skeptical about this b/c I don't want it to be something that I'm sending. I want it to be sent by him. I do't want it to be as if I'm pushing him to do it rather than him doing it himself. Also, is it even worth sending it if my H is really not wanting to send it?

Hi, LLG...

So you asked him to sit down with you and git'r done, huh?

Bring up his email account...type in the words he says...give your opinion/approval and send...

I don't see the problem...you're doing it together through your fingers?

Or was it you taking dictation and sending from your email?

LLG--no does anything that they don't want to do...if they do it, they want to...putting conditions on intent...for instance, your H may hate his job...and go to work, anyway...because he wants to...he wants to contribute to his family, bring home the bacon, get admiration and appreciation...whatever it is, it outweighs not going to that job...he wants to do it.

Humans are like that...we can act like we don't want, and we mean desire...I don't desire to clean my toilet...I REALLY don't...but I like a clean toilet, so I do...so I want to do it...because I do it.

When we ask for protection, does it enhance the value, in your mind, that it be voluntary, eager, immediate, joyful, or enthusiastic? What if his compliance...which was to do it, to do it together, to do it then...was a lot to him? Would that convince you he wanted to do it?

As a child...did your parents tell you to "Smile! No one likes a frown!" and you did, and they said, "Oh, nevermind...you really didn't want to, anyway" and then you did, and they walked away? (Talk about a lame analogy...I'm tired, I think)...I trust you to get the point...how do you feel when someone asks you to do something, in a certain way, at a certain time, and then, is disappointed when you do that, and they don't like your attitude...say, "Well, don't put yourself out if you don't WANT to do it!"

It's crushing, isn't it?

We don't do what we do not want to do.

My belief.

Talk about this with your H...he might recall his mother doing this to him...his feeling bottomless inadequacy because no matter what he did, when or how...it wasn't accepted...not good enough...so his fear is constant...and what he agreed to do, the when, how and doing it together was his choice...adequate...

You can't push him. You can request. What happens when you keep repeating a request? Most likely, you stop being heard. If someone doesn't want to fill your request, they don't. There's the true want...not the desire.

That's my two-cents...I learned to accept more, look at the act for the act, and I chose to believe, if DH does it, he wanted to...

I feel very loved, cherished and enjoyed, LLG. Part of that was changing that belief...

LA

Thanks for your two cents, LA. Helped me a lot.

Well, I expect that two cents back in the future, Missy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Remember my FOO stuff I asked you about? Consider us even.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Indeed, I am more than happy to put in my two cents.

BTW, it has been a while since we talked about them. Have you seen them lately? How have things been with your FOO?

I didn't answer your question earlier also.


I think, it was more like me taking dictation. I asked him what would his email say? He told me. He asked me if I had an address b/c he got rid of the stuff he had in the email account. I did not get rid of the stuff(emails) he had however. I told him I had the address. He said well send it.

This morning we had a talk. I told him I felt he felt I was pressuring him. I asked if he felt that way. He said, "Well yes. But I want you to send it."

I'm thinking, "He did the deed, but wants me to send the email, uh?"

Ok, I feel some conflict about this. Questions come to mind. If he wants me to send it why the lack of enthusiams? He uses a PC all day long. He knows how to make things short and sweet. Why not get on the PC and send it?

Secondly, how can he feel pressured and really want me to send it at the saem time(sincerely)? Seems inconsistent in thought to me.

LA, you posted your belief is that people don't really do things that they don't want to, right?

Well, I am concerned for a few reasons that sometimes humans do, especially when they feel that they are doing whatever will get them what they want, whether it be nookie and avoidance of conflict or whatever else.

Even more than this, I feel my H is showing a lack of taking responsibility for his behavior and a major lack of empathy.

Here is an explanation why. He told this same OP in the email that we're talking about, that he would be closer to her if his wife (me) hadn't had an attitude when she called our home. That really hurts and feels like major betrayal.

Circumstance surrounding my having "an attitude":

While he was away she called our home. She knew I was there in the home during this time they were having conversation regularly until about a month before he left. Well I answered the phone and she says she had the wrong number. Didn't ask for my H. Well she calls right back and says the same thing. Before she hangs up I called out her name. She answered. I knew it was this nutty acting person.

So, she asked me how I knew it was her. I asked her why was she calling and saying she had the wrong number, when I answered. She said, she thought she had the wrong number. I was asked how so. She called here twice and she knew his wife would answer the phone or a female voice answering the phone was likely to be his wife. So I questioned her why would she say she had the wrong number. Her story was that she thought she had the wrong number and she was sticking to it.

During this time I thought it was just friend-conversation they were having, even though I had already expressed to him that I disliked him talking to her.

Aside from this particular instance, in times past when we got into big arguments he would go and talk to her for a long time on his cell phone (not in the house). He said he wasn't talking about us. So what were they talking about? The email I found, to me, says exactly what they were talking about. So the issue of honesty is a concern here.

When I talk to him about the girl acting as she did he seemed to not have any feeling about her. But then he turns on me in the email. Why is he with me if he has all of these ill feelings about me having an attitude?

Thirdly, with WS 1st OW he would promise me that he was through with her and wanted to be with me. Wanted to work on our R (at this time we were living together then later became engaged). So, I asked him to change the telephone number. He told me to do it. I did. Then who else began calling again. I changed the telephone number like twice and she got the number again. She told me he gave it to her. Which makes sense b/c she had it before even his job had it for her to get it off the listing.

I guess I'm saying that his acitons aren't congruent enough to really say that he means what he is saying. They may not be congruent b/c he isn't convinced that this is necessary. If he isn't convinced this is necessary then I feel he truly isn't aware of the the harm he has done to me and the hurt that he has caused. If this is so, then it means to me that he is downplaying my feelings and if this is so then it may be mean that it is useless to try to salvage this relationship if my feelings mean so little to him. And if on his own accord he isn't able to understand empathy for others and not just any others, his wife, then perhaps this is a weakness on his part. One that I really don't have patience for considering his track record.

I'm concerned about his betrayal and that he will go back and tell this person that I put him up to it. I'm concerned for his lack of empathy for me. Maybe he thinks I deserve to be treated the way he has treated me.

I don't know. I just feel that I don't trust him even more. I think he downplays how I feel.

"When I talk to him about the girl acting as she did he seemed to not have any feeling about her. But then he turns on me in the email. Why is he with me if he has all of these ill feelings about me having an attitude?"

Is this where your desire for him to write and send the email is higher, to counter this question in your head?

"I'm concerned about his betrayal and that he will go back and tell this person that I put him up to it. I'm concerned for his lack of empathy for me. Maybe he thinks I deserve to be treated the way he has treated me."

And what does he say when you talk to him about these concerns and feeling?

Did you go to more IC sessions, after the first one?

I read a lot of questions about what your WH's beliefs and thoughts were...and I can't answer them for you. Sounds like you're saying you don't believe him through his actions, the idea of trusting him is remote and that you doubt greatly what he says, is that correct?

And that you're caught in that loop of why ask when you won't believe? His words do not match his actions?

I thought the CO was going to make sure he went to MC...did that get lost, too? I'm really sorry they are letting you down, LLG...truly.

LA

Yes. This is a very good question. Thought provoking. Yes, this is the question in my head and also a bit of a demand. I want to know, do you really love me? Can I trust you? If you love me your actions speak louder than words. Show me. Also I feel shame, without honor that he agreed with the enemy. This person has been negative to him about our M since its beginning as if is her bisness. She is an Ex-GF. And I have a major security issue about this.


Another great question, LA. I've focused more on telling him about how he has hurt me when he has done this and that. However when I do tell him that I just don't feel secure, he dosen't say anyhting.

I've been erring on the side of trying to make him understand me by saying, you did this and you did this. Hoping he will get the picture but instead, he becomes defensive and says, "No I Didn't do that. I didn't think that."


Yes, I went to another one. However it wasn't a good experience. The counselor didn't take notes about my sitch at all. She tried to tell me my history with her by her memory and had me confused often with someone else. So I wasn't impressed. Hadn't been back.


It is his actions that I doubt. He has changed them some as far as being more accountable with his time. It is however the things he told OP about us and our M, about me. I feel sometimes like I'm sleeping with the enemy.
He seems uninterested in hearing how he hurt my feelings and how he made all these bad comments about me. So I feel he needs to address these things. I feel sometimes that he isn't enjoined with me as if maybe he feels that there are other people that are better for him than me.


NO, he said he would tell him to do it but couldn't make an order without releasing info to the higher ups. So he talked to him about it. He still refuses to go.

LA, I've read some brief comments by you about indulging in fantasy.

A part of my concern about fully working in my M with my H is the fear that he will just betray me again and that in his heart he hasn't really stopped.

My question, is it fantasy that I'm delving in when I focus on what he could do in the future?

One other thing, I've been reading Dr Harley's How to resolve conflict ad restore love in a marrige. he feel you should restore love first. Is this what you have been telling me about how things didn't turn about until you decided to give love expecting nothing in return in your M?

LA, thanks for posing questions that are opening up my thoughts a bit. I think I need to re-evaluate what is going on now. I see often that my H is very unhappy and I am too. Now we really are trying to crush pain into each other.

But I feel that I don't want to put myself in a precarious situation again. So I'm trying to protect myself at all cost. But my choices are making me miserable. I feel paranoid and confused in all of this. I feel like I'm carrying the weight of this R on my shoulders. So I'm taking some time to think this through more carefully.

So I've been thinking. Suppose I am wrong about my techniques of getting what I think is best for our R? What if my H does loves me but has some personal issues that need working out, just as I do, could I be going about this all wrong?

Had an O & H talk with my H today. I think I angered him. He came to me for SF and I told him that I do not feel secure in our R. He asked why. I told him.

Explained the following actions that I would like to stop and what I would like to take place:

1. I am concerned about his reluctance to: send NC email, especially with all I've been through with him. I want to know he doesn't want to be with OW and I want him to earn my trust.

2. Want him to be transparnet and acccountable when he leaves the house; call me if his plans change.

3. Tell me what is happening with the chick at the job and not tell me to stop acting suspicious when I ask him what is going on with her.

4. Stop downplaying how I feel.

He was really upset. He said I keep bringing up the past but he doesn't constantly put things in my face, like I put things in his face. Says that he knows, I'm overspending again on the credit accounts and he doesn't drag this up.

I asked him why didn't he come to me about it. He is enablding to continue in the behavior by not speaking up. He said he has talked to me before and I haven't changed.

Says, he hasn't talked to the girl that I want him to send NC email to in months, so why do I keep bringing it up. He says I never stop bringing up the past. He has been trying to keep moving forward. Asked why do I want to be married to him when I'm always so miserable. Says I'm always frowned up, angry.

I listened and repeated what he said. I actually got a little more understanding from him about his position and why he feels as he does.

I replied to him that I feel he has his reasoning for how he feels and I understand it but he I feel he is downplaying how I feel. I explained that I fear and it concerns me that he downplays how I feel. I am concerned that if he doesn't have empathy for how I feel, how I feel doesn't matter and he will cheat on me again.

I confessed that I need help being accountable for our financial situation. I explained that I have problems overspending. I explained likewise I would like for him to do the same (be accountable). I need him to be more accepting and compliant to my request to do more to earn my trust not tell me I keep bringing up the matter.

He left. We didn't make L and now I'm really concerned that he doesn't want the M anymore. Several times he said he is putting up with things that he doesn't want. That concerns me. Anywho, am I saying something wrong? Did I choose to say this at a bad time.

I feel good that finally I got out what I've wanted to say since the As began. I feel disheartened however that it he is upset. I don't feel he heard me. I feel he is fed up. He feels that he's done everything in his own way. Nut that has been what he wanted not what I wanted.

I'm confused b/c I don't know if I want the M either. He has used me two times too many and I've been disrespected so many time by men, not having the brains to go with the beauty when I was younger. I just don't want to be treated like this anymore.

Yet I fear dv. I fear my kids being brought up in seperate households. And my H already has problems with our oldest son. We just are having problems period. SO I don't know I feel I'm hitting on the brick wall. WHht am I doing wrong? What is wrong with us working together. And I must be doing soemthing worng b/c my whole like seems to be on hold.

Yet I know what I want. I just feel H isn't ready to do what I want and then I'm unhappy again. I sound hopeless, but I really do know what I want. I feel hopeless that I can't get it from him.

LA, I noted my sitch above after talk w/ H today.

i ralie that trying to ge thim to do what I want isn't working and withholding SF isn't eithr. He still hasn't taken the SDT test. So I think I should act as the following

1. Relax my urgency about him sending the NC email.

2. Try to do my best Plan A and rstore love and at a later time work toward recovery plan.

3. Develope my boundaries personally.

LLG,

Can you reverse the order of your stuff? Enforce personal boundaries as #1? Dearest LLG, do NOT have SF with H at all, in any way...until he gets his STD panel and results.

Period.

This isn't controlling...this is you protecting you. You matter. Your health matters...and you did not bring this to you...his consequences, he bears. Period. Even though you've had SF since the A ended...doesn't matter...you understand? Begin today...you risk reinfection. You know you do.

You are not withholding SF to get him to do what you want...you half made that your intent, now make your intent pure...you are respectful of your WH's choices...and will NOT get in the way of his consequences.

Why would it be REASONABLE for you to NOT protect yourself?

Big Kudos on you finally speaking...you did it, you self-congratulated and that's awesome. Why the DJ about if he's now considering D'ing or not? Why not stay where you have control...only you...for you, accountable to you...?

Why keep on about the NC email? He KNOWS. "I respect you know what I need to feel safe...I have told you and I know you've heard me." End of story. Until he does, you won't feel safe emotionally...same with the STD panel and results...physically.

Safety is important...all natural consequences, not punishment...unless you make it punishment...intent matters.

Star and others are giving you great advice...I'm reading along...I would like to see self-care back on your list of priorities/actions. And I wanted to ask you...this email with OW#2 (old girlfriend redeaux), really got to you...to you, he sided with her against you...and you seemed heavily betrayed by this...

That's what an affair is, LLG. You know this, twice. Why did this one especially hit your button? I ask because it was a specific statement that may mean something to you...with the other one (at his work), he replaced you entirely...and don't you have an obligation to report that STD to his CO so she can be tested? Sorry, I digress...

Did you catch yourself more upset, on a whole 'nother level, than before, with this email you found? Seemed to strike something out of context from what you've experienced in the past year...so I'm asking.

On your list, I didn't see: Go higher up chain of command on August 1st (a Tuesday) if OW is not gone. Until you do this, I don't believe you will feel satisfied in the long run as far as trying everything to save your marriage...and you feel like ditching it...so taking an action that is true and just might help with that feeling...or not.

Your choice.

He left? Momentarily or moved out? Do not worry what he is thinking...concentrate on what you heard and repeated...stay in truth, not conjecture.

You can do this. Know what you truly want for your life that is within your control...best place to begin to own it.

LA

Ok. You are right. Haven't worked out me more importantly. I AM the only one that I can control.



I agree and will carry this out.

Then perhaps a boundary for starters will be if he presses me I will have to leave. I won't have much choice.



Agreed. After the first A, I told him that I didn't want to do anything (No SF) until he was tested. He gave me an emotional tandrum and I gave in. It has taken me this long to get myself together. That was over 2 years ago. I think I've weakened my position trying to force him to do so many things.



I agree and think that my next boundary is if he doens't make appointment in next couple days, maybe end of the week I will have to go to the CO. The nurse that gave me the results explained while ago that she could do it (go to his CO)instead, but I was trying to allow him to do it.

It wouldn't be reasonable for me not to protect myself. I guess I'm still looking for validation. I know people, who if in my shoes wouldn't think about it before they were gone. But I still have issues with validation.



Thanks



Ok. I don't really know. I just want to be sure he cares and isn't against me.




Yes, they are and it is beneficial. I guess I'm like panicking and maybe looking for some perfect answer. Some perfect bullet that will shoot stright through to the problem and Git ur'done. I just don't want to face this same thing again. At the same time I realize that at some point I have to stop worrying, and looking for a perfect answer.



I've been asking myself also why does it hit me so hard that My H sided with ex-GF. OP #3 The only thing I can come up with is that she was around when we got maried. I feel she downed it. Now it seems that what she told him about me (negative talk based on what he told her about us prior to the M) means to him and her that I wasn't worth marrying. Even though this same chick betrayed him horribly. Said she had a baby from him then he came to know after she revealed to all their friends at that time, that the baby was another man's.

I've given him beuatiful children and he has gone behind my back to talk to her about us. Just hurts me even now to type it. I just feel humiliated that he is agreeing with her and not standing with me. Maybe more validation.


I guess also because it seems like him saying out right that he thnks I suck or that I'm useless. I don't know just yet.


Yes, I didn't include that one. But I am now.


Oh no, he didn't move out. He left for work. It was what he was saying that really concerned me. "I don't think you'll ever get over this. Why do you want to stay married? You are so miserable and unhappy." Seems like he is waiting for me to say ok let's do it, let's get a dv.

The more I tried to talk to him the more he said, Oh that won't work and his mannerisms were angry. So I thought this time he might really go look into it.



Tried to run and write it down after he left, but forgot some of it. Still got a good bit of it. My memory is on the blitz at times.


What'd you think about the financial sitch. I know we've talked about it. I sitll want him to take the cards. I need a plan but I see he isn't willing to work on the plan with me. Working together o anything is like a foreign concept. So I guess I have to map out a plan on my own.

"Ok. I don't really know. I just want to be sure he cares and isn't against me."

Your choice to believe he cares or not is solely yours...

Your choice to believe he is against you is solely yours...

Making that choice is choosing your life...you can do that. Only you can do that.

Here is where I believe you are your own undoing:

"Yes, they are and it is beneficial. I guess I'm like panicking and maybe looking for some perfect answer. Some perfect bullet that will shoot stright through to the problem and Git ur'done. I just don't want to face this same thing again. At the same time I realize that at some point I have to stop worrying, and looking for a perfect answer."

Instant fixes aren't fixes...knowing you are human, in a life-long process is real...instant fixes are fantasies.

You keep seeing the line blurred between boundaries and ultimatums due to the time factor, I believe. Listen more to the sane self that says...there are no perfect answers to fallible people...there are choices, only. You choose the best as you see, and later, if you see a better choice, choose that one.

Validate yourself, LLG. Do your REBT and know your wholeness...it truly is yours.

"I've been asking myself also why does it hit me so hard that My H sided with ex-GF. OP #3 The only thing I can come up with is that she was around when we got maried. I feel she downed it. Now it seems that what she told him about me (negative talk based on what he told her about us prior to the M) means to him and her that I wasn't worth marrying."

Excuse me...uhm, LLG? He married you. This would be you bogarting yourself...wouldn't it? She was not allowed enough influence, had no control over your H and HE CHOSE YOU.

"Even though this same chick betrayed him horribly. Said she had a baby from him then he came to know after she revealed to all their friends at that time, that the baby was another man's."

So this is you comparing yourself to her?

"I've given him beuatiful children and he has gone behind my back to talk to her about us. Just hurts me even now to type it. I just feel humiliated that he is agreeing with her and not standing with me. Maybe more validation."

Maybe? What if...you looking inside says this is what you tell yourself in whispers...detrimental whispers...you're not good enough; he's against you; he's using you; he believes you're not his equal...

If you have those whispers, that's you doing it to you...those DJs I said were so corrosive? They go both ways...outward and inward...find yours. He can be against you...and you are still whole and complete; he can intentionally attempt to use you, and he can't...he truly cannot use another soul...he can think you're not good enough...and that doesn't touch that you are...you really are...he can believe you're superior and hate you for it...and it won't change you're his equal.

He has given you beautiful children...not her.

He says nothing outright...that you suck or any of these statements...or does he? If he doesn't...then they are the whispers in your head...and you know what I bet? You've had them in your head your whole life...and hear them through him and others you have chosen to be in your life.

You chose, too.

Beware your DJs...""I don't think you'll ever get over this. Why do you want to stay married? You are so miserable and unhappy." Seems like he is waiting for me to say ok let's do it, let's get a dv."

He said he doesn't see you getting over his betrayal. What do you see in yourself? He asked you, honestly, why do you want to stay married to him? What do you say the reason is, inside yourself? He sees you as miserable and unhappy...and doesn't see the "right now" of it...that's his DJ...saying you are; yet it remains, it is his perception...what is your truth, LLG?

Do not seems about motive...stick with facts stated...answer those questions...focus on you...can you do that?

The more you tried to talk to him, the more he said, "That won't work"? Are you trying to convince or sell him? Or are you sharing your stuff...'cuz there isn't a response to "I feel" or "I believe" of "That won't work."

Were you trying to POJA things you want?

He can be angry, afraid, in pain, frustration and feeling abjectly miserable...you won't know what he chooses to do until he does it...or doesn't do it. When he doesn't choose to get STD tested, he is choosing not to...that's a choice, not procrastination.

Good job on trying to capture what he was saying...the more your memory is on the fritz, the more stuff got in the way of you listening to repeat...maybe listening to react?

For the financial...cut up the cards. Say this is what you're going to do. Then do it. Cut them up. The very act is telling yourself you're cutting this out of your life...that it is fantasy, not reality...and you want reality.

You already asked him to take them and he didn't. Cut them up.

Next, sit down and separate your finances...protect him from you (and some of you from him...you mentioned his spending)...I did a post on how to do this...someone else was in your H's shoes and I advised her...

I couldn't work with my H on financial plans...I had to lay it out, show my acknowledgement, show I respected he was capable of controlling himself, and then show my respect in separating us financially. It killed me as a symbol of unity...and it freed me from resentment. Freedom revives the death of a symbol.

Spending gives you validation, is fed from resentment, wishful child and self-soothing...the more you self-care without monetary expenditure, the less resentment you'll feel, the stronger your adult self will be and the more you validate yourself, the less you will feel compelled to spend.

It's a free fall feeling...and you can take this downward spiral and turn it upward...it is symbolic...find your symbols and share them here. You can do this.

This may be the essential way to get you to really believe he is not the cause, control or cure for what is only yours...nor you, him.

This might be your life symbol...your love symbol...what represents a lot in you...so much so, it is your fantasy solace...like you said once, an affair with money...find all the false payoffs and put in their place real ones.

LA

Hi La.

I greatly appreciate your post. It has been so helpful, so helpful. I have been reading and reviewing it. And i am still. Thanks a bunch.

Hi ya. How are you today? I'm good. I missed our being able to post back and forward yesterday. Things have gotten hectic for me since day before yesterday. My issues with H and me are on the back burner for now. I'm having a problem with my FOO.

My mother was recently sent to an institution for her own protection. Seems she might have wanted to cause herself harm. The police was invloved and it turned into a big situation.

Once before I mentioned that my mother had tried to do this when I was a little girl and had included me in her stunt. She has attempted this on several occasions when I was younger and before I was born. It always had to do with her frustration or upset over the men in her life, this time was no different. I've looked at these instances as "attention-getting" episodes.

This time I'm really concerned about it. She is elderly (but has a boyfriend that she was upset over), and she has lived her entire life in emotional turmoil, thus, you see the resemblance in me. Her M to my dad and her previous H have been full of emotional baggage and problems.

Rather than focusing internally she's tried to take control of everyone else but herself. As a result many of her relationships with my siblings and her grandkids have been strained to the point of her sometimes being alienated. However, many of my siblings operate in very dysfunctional behaviors just as she had and does.

Well she will be coming home soon. And my family is discussing what to do. Many of the same behaviors that my mother exhibited as we were coming up (reigning over us with a hard hand, without boundaries in intimidating disresepctful ways, seeking to control our desicions, bad mouthing us, and just bad behaviors all around) my fellow siblings now operate in. So they are now wanting to control her and tell her what she must do. In my opinion, treat her without dignity, which is much the same way that she raised us.

While I understand the concern that my fellow siblings have the method to handle it is wrong to me. And many of them do not see that they act just like my mother. Not to excuse myself. While I am changing many of the rules I live by, much of my behavior as well has been just like hers.

None-the-less, I don't feel we'll be helping my mom by treating her in these same dysfunctional ways. Yet, my family isn't as patient with her and want to bash her about being with this recent boyfriend and tell her to get in control and ask her what the heck is wrong with her (issues that have been expressed to me). A few that could help her monetarily are refusing to b/c she is keeping the boyfriend. I feel confident if everyone focuses only on her and the boyfriend instead of helping my mother think differently we may be down this road again.

I feel my mom needs to be Plan Aed with everyone's support until she is better. One of the things that really hurts her is her relations with her kids and grands. So to say anything negative I feel would just be detrimental at this point.

But I feel if we can show her what she hasn't shown us and help her out with the personal affairs she has little by little until they are straighten out in the meantime working on her personal mental, emotional issues then things will go better.

I've tried to discuss this with family members. To me, this is a love covers all situation. But forgiveness is so far from them. They sound just like my mom. They just keep talking about her past and her boyfriend (as if she a teenager and their the parents). It is a cycle of dysfunction. On the other side of thigns she is always talking about how she sacrificed so much for us to brith us in the world and take care of us. And many of us speak to her in ungrateful ways. And she blankets this on all of us even if she has an argument with only one of us. This has been going on for a long as I've been on this earth.

Myself and my baby sister are talking about it and feel the same. We should show her love through this time. LA, would you have an idea of what you would call the type of dysfunction that I've described. You sort of spelled the controlling part out when you talked about your FOO and I relate to that. Is there maybe a title that you are aware of where I can begin to get a handle of my FOO issues. I know I can only control me but if I can act in ways that contribute I really want to. I guess my family could just be called a dysfuntional family, maybe I can start researching there.

In part I wanted to share my frustration with you. It is on my mind a lot. And in part I wondered if you might have any ideas about. Thanks for being here with me, LA.

Hi ya, LA. How are you? I saw you were out here. If you have time and wouldn't mind, I'm bumping a post I sent to you earlier.

Thank you very much for the bump, LLG...I was on last night for just a few minutes...and left up my browser, all signed in, at home until this morning when leaving for work...and I wasn't on the computer form like 7pm to 7am...LOL...

Geesh. I usually don't do that. Now I'm at work and in and out...like sleeping with my eyes, open, huh?

Ahhh...FOO (since you know this gets me the most, I found saying this, with a deep sigh, tickles me...thought I'd share...Ahhhh....FOO)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I've looked at these instances as "attention-getting" episodes."

Would you consider choosing to believe this are her desperate attempts to get attention from herself? To get her own focus?

First, I am behind your belief to not treat her in the way you were treated...and also that your sibs may not be seeing their own, only attempting to heal themselves through exerting intense control back...that was both compassionate and respectful of you to choose to believe what you do...

I would like to ask you about "helping her"...do you know firmly your limits and power in regards to being of help to her?

That you would be treating her with respect from your own code, not from what is due her, most helpful for her, etc?

"Yet, my family isn't as patient with her and want to bash her about being with this recent boyfriend and tell her to get in control and ask her what the heck is wrong with her (issues that have been expressed to me)."

Do you really think it is lack of patience? Or is their wishful inner children clamoring for the "Why? Why did you do this to me?" truth...because they believe answering that truth will change their lives?

"A few that could help her monetarily are refusing to b/c she is keeping the boyfriend."

They have a financial boundary...duty to support mother is not obligation to support her lovers.

"I feel confident if everyone focuses only on her and the boyfriend instead of helping my mother think differently we may be down this road again."

Can you see your fixer here? What if...all the siblings and you cut her loose? Said we respect you are choosing your life...entirely. We know you can take care of yourself financially, emotionally, physically and mentally...you have the resources, knowledge and desire. We respect you."

I say this because you cannot determine her road...it's hers. She has every right to not wake up as you do to wake up...her choice is as inviolate as yours...more painful, certainly...wide effects...truth is, you can't make her take any other road.

As for a label...oh, I have nothing...in FOO, I am barely able to know I'm in that forest, let alone tell you what trees I can see...it's a blur of green...my inner child reacts, along with every other one in there...8-year-old, and teen. It's noisy. And dark...lots of light and shadows.

I'm with you on this...I don't have a label. I have found many passive-aggressive behaviors in my parents...is that what you're looking for?

I'll think on this today...and get back with you in a few hours...I know that bond which weighs on your mind, your heart...flutters around...and if you'll also see your relationship with your sibs mixed into your perspective, as well...understand and give yourself some slack on the clarity issue...it's a messy place for me.

I do know that when we deny self--strive so hard to feed ourselves from the outside...in your mom's case, from men, partners who mirror her in the way she wants to be mirrored, that she does that with you and each one of her children as well...and it's a house of cards, because none of it is real...maybe one of the conditions of helping her financially would be counseling?

I hope this helps...you are becoming very aware; you've always, I believe, been loving and loyal...which in my experience, can actually get in the way of respecting...clarifying...and your desire to have your mother as your mother, entirely bonded and whole, is what every one of us wants...our wishful inner child...before we realize our parents are as human as we are...our equals...and being okay knowing what our desperate wishes are, separate from our goals, helps, I think.

LA

You've gotta get some sleep missy. LA, you do much on MB and help so many. I know you have to be tired often.

LA:
"Thank you very much for the bump, LLG..."

You're welcome...I didn't want you to have to search for the post.


Oh, LA. There is so much to consider in this post...I feel a little divided and have questions.


LA wrote:
"Ahhh...FOO (since you know this gets me the most, I found saying this, with a deep sigh, tickles me...thought I'd share...Ahhhh....FOO)"

lol, I laugh for 3 reasons. What you've said about the way it tickles you...The way it sounds like it might mean something in chinese...And lastly, I heard this guy on this movie say MOOSAW as therapy to say when he was becoming angry, supposedly to center him. So I think of saying it with the "F" sound.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just wanted to share, too.


LA wrote:
"Would you consider choosing to believe this are her desperate attempts to get attention from herself? To get her own focus?"

So you don't think she is trying to get us to give her special attention or do other things that she wants us to? And by getting attention from herself do you mean by like maybe lashing out in frustration because she isn't sure of what is the matter, the real matter on the inside? Frustrated b/c she thought the latest guy was the one who'd make her love her...who'd make everything peachy only to find disappointment that it didn't work out so she's back to the same unhappiness that proceeded his coming? Sounds like an addiction.

LA wrote:
"I would like to ask you about "helping her"...do you know firmly your limits and power in regards to being of help to her?"

Yes, I do know my limits and power. I realize first off that I can't even help her unless she decides to allow me. I realize that there are boundaries and i should respect them. Respect her choices.

LA wrote:
"Do you really think it is lack of patience? Or is their wishful inner children clamoring for the "Why? Why did you do this to me?"

Well I do believe that they want to know why. I've gotten over the why because I felt with all the years past it wouldn't do me any good and I decided that I understood why when I recognized some of the same deficiencies, if I can use this word...in myself in my mom. But I realize that many of my sibs haven't gotten to this point.


So are you saying, not necessarily that they're right...but these questions are still unanwsered maybe within them?

LA wrote:
" Can you see your fixer here? What if...all the siblings and you cut her loose? Said we respect you are choosing your life...entirely. We know you can take care of yourself financially, emotionally, physically and mentally...you have the resources, knowledge and desire. We respect you."

Yes, I think so...in my wanting maybe to fix her, fix the situation. Ok, I do respect her wishes. I have learned with my H that it is useless to try and force any1 to do anything. So I am willing to give her her space to make her own choices. She comes to her kids for help. I think the option that we each are willing to give is for her to allow our intervention in a way that is healthy not controlling and if she doesn't allow I'll step back.

LA wrote:
"maybe one of the conditions of helping her financially would be counseling?"

Yes, this is something that is going to take place. She is on anti-ds and is suppose to start counseling in a week. One of the problems the doctor had with her acoording to my sisters (I'm not with her, in a another state), is that she refused to discuss the matter during the group sessions. So I'm hoping we can work with her. What do you think about me introducing Smart Recovery to her if she is interested? The new AA, I mean. I did a couple meetings online and it was a real help. I'm getting back into it.

LA wrote:
"I hope this helps...you are becoming very aware; you've always, I believe, been loving and loyal...which in my experience, can actually get in the way of respecting...clarifying...and your desire to have your mother as your mother, entirely bonded and whole, "

Yes, it has helped a bunch. ABout the loyalty getting in
the way of my respecting and clarifying.....I relate to this. I understand it and see how I'm blinded by my sense of obligation into wanting to ensure a positive or beneficial outsime but I realize I can't make that happen.

Later today I'm headed to see her and talk to my sibs. Please say a little prayer for me.

Oh yes, I asked how were things going with you and your FOO...was wondering if you had any contact recently.
And thank you for the compliments, LA. I'm trying hard to get it. But there is a lot to get, so to speak, lol....a lot to learn.

I believe in you, LLG...and yes, will pray for you.

Whatever you suggest, do it only once. Know you were heard, you did your part. I believe she's had people all her life see her as one big "if only"...if only she would see this, do this...and all she's really heard was "if only I would be this" instead of be her self.

I really relate to that. Passed down from her parents, from theirs to them, from theirs to them...backwards...this lesson...I heard that a lot from my own...and still do.

And yes, maybe next week, I'll let you in on a FOO first for me...from last Friday...FOOSAW!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I believe the more you affirm her choices, listen and repeat, tell her you KNOW she's whole, complete...capable...and do not agree with her choices, but state you know they are her choices...and only she chooses...then this time might be different from the other times...and this is again coming to self, opportunity to come to self, which only she can choose to take...

I sympathize with your siblings...and you...because I believe not learning to mother ourselves (that adult self-care) does cause our lives to be imbalanced, full of want, voids and yearnings...and we bring that to our marriages, our children; so respecting your other sib's (youngest sister included) choices, hearing and acknowledging their perspectives (as their choice), is far more practice for you in one heaping event than you could ever imagine.

Everyone has their journey, intent and choice...I know you know this...in this most reactive circumstance, I pray you'll stay knowing it...listening, too, to your inside.

(((LLG))))

LA