my wife of almost 5yrs recently confessed to having an affair. As you could imagine I am totally torn inside. She says she doesn't like him "like That" anymore. they are just friends. One night she will come home with tears in her eyes and say she is sorry and that she made a decision to stay with me and our precious little girl. 14 mos. The next night she says she is done trying. she says that shes been trying the past 3 years and she is done. She says she loves me but not the kind of love that we need to make it. I asked her to go with me to counseling and she did but she just throws up a wall and says there is nothing anyone can say to change my mind about how I feel. I just tell her that nobodies tring to change the way you feel they are simply making suggestions for us to think about. Its been 2 very long weeks since she told me. I just cant get over the hurt I feel when ever she talks about him. Am I suppose to talk about him to her? It just feels like Im being stabbed in the heart whenever she talks to him or does something with him. In plan A it says to get rid of the other person, how is that possible when she still wants to be friends with him. They've been kinda having a falling out but then it seems they just talk and see eachother again. How am I suppose to just sit here and watch the most important person in life make this huge mistake? Im totally confused and frusterated! Don't know what to say and when to say it anymore. I asked last night what happened with us and she said I didn't spend enough time with her. Maybe true to some extent but if thats the only thing why is she pushing me out the door like she is. I told I was sorry and I want to change and be a better husband but she just keeps saying its to late. What really hurt me is the other night she said she really didn't want to get married in the first place! How can that be true. I just don't know anymore. Im about to my last straw. What can I do!!??? any suggestions?

Hi, WAA,

I saw your other thread. Is there a reason you started a new one?

Do you understand what Plan A really is? It is about stopping her affair. As long as she is in contact, it is an affair. Period. I didn't see where you understood that.

I get that you're overwhelmed, wrung out, and full of pain and fear. Man, I remember. When you come here for advice, people will give it to you straight. Don't doubt they already know exactly where you are. Rely on it. You're in chaos internally and externally, but listen carefully for the questions and answers. They are here.

Tell me what you know about Plan A and what other threads you are reading that are EXACTLY like yours (AdrianC's)

Even your time frame is the same.

Take a lot of deep breaths. Seriously. Be your own best friend for now. You aren't going to be out of pain immediately, so please lower your expectation. You're still grappling with the shock of understanding that you could even feel this much pain. We know. We remember. It takes your breath. Give that back to yourself first.

"I asked her to go with me to counseling and she did"

Don't judge what she is doing..like the advice on the other thread. Concentrate on what you're doing. You say that you guys are in counseling, but past tense? Help me on this.

As a kindness, please use paragraph breaks to help me read your post. It also will show me where you switch thoughts, what's important and what you just need to throw out of yourself. All good, just better with that added courtesy.


"Im being stabbed in the heart" Yes, it feels just like that. Read Adrian's thread. You are not alone. Contact continues the pain; no contact has some relief, but still pain. You're going for no contact.

Have you tried counseling with the Harleys? I highly recommend it. If you believe your wife puts up walls, then she needs a really good counselor. Forgive me, I mean your marriage needs a really good counselor. I believe both of you would benefit from individual counseling (IC) as well as MC.

"In plan A it says to get rid of the other person, how is that possible when she still wants to be friends with him."

Yes, the affair can end. You can help that happen by your actions. It is not about getting rid of the OP (other person), it is about exposing their actions to the light of day, so it shrivels. There is contact. There is an active affair. Expose.

"How am I suppose to just sit here and watch the most important person in life make this huge mistake?" This is the terrible beauty found in affairs...you will learn important stuff you otherwise might take a lifetime to not understand. No one is asking you to watch another person make a huge mistake. You are being asked to respect that your wife, while in a very real fog, self-destructs and you do not have any control over that. You cannot control anyone but yourself. You feel responsible because you love her. You feel like you should stop her from all the consequences because they will be terrible and painful. That's disrespectful.

Acknowledge your own pain, which is a consequence of your WS actively harming you. What are your boundaries? What are the consequences when someone crosses those boundaries? You define who you are and what you do.

Don't know what to say or when to say it? What was your criteria for doing so before? Did you use "I" statements and share your thoughts and feelings? Do that now. Know that intimacy is what marriage is about. Your truth is important, whether or not it has any visible effect. It is your truth.

You now understand your WW felt neglected. That's her truth. You didn't cause her A. Know that as well. You contributed to the marriage by your choices. Instead of standing by and watching, you can examine her truth, her need for attention--which comes in a lot of forms: affection, listening, 15 hours of undivided attention each week, prioritize knowing (not assuming) her thoughts and feelings, admiring and appreciating her, being open and honest with her about you. I see all those needs within "not enough time spent"...and recreational companionship may be key, too. The rest of her truth may be that the time spent would be fun. Or that she be heard. Or accepted.

Please read Lovebusters...your "but if thats the only thing why is she pushing me out the door like she is." is one of them. She told you of her unhappiness--her pain of neglect. That is huge. Not your judgment but hers is what counts. Accept this is something she needs.

All WS say it is too late. That's not the real truth, just their foggy one. They have to justify tearing into another's flesh. It has to be the other person's fault. You can know this and understand this without being responsible for it. It is never too late to see how relationships work (Emotional needs, lovebank, rules of marriage). It is never too late to wake up to your part in the marriage and change it. Why? Because when you make those changes (like now...not future), that is the only time you could have. You were ignorant before. Now there isn't a reason not to change.

Not changing for her, but for you. I'm sorry doesn't cut it unless you specifically acknowledge and believe what you did that you are not doing now. Think of Plan A as an amends...it has as much benefit for you as it might for her.

She will rewrite your history--not wanting to get married in the first place. Protect yourself from these revisions. They aren't even her truths, just more justification. They happen. They are embarrassing later. Guard your heart here, a little, and discern what is viable and what is unjustifiable. Be compassionate.

Be your truest self.

Learn how you loved and see where you might love differently. Bring back the respect that you are both different people. And please, put in a signature line with the important stuff--your ages, how long married (how long you've known each other) ages of your kids, when your DDay was (last two weeks, you'll know that date forever), that there is still contact. And keep it current. You're in Plan A (if you choose)

You don't have to listen to me--my sigline is outdated. Add a year to everyone's ages. And our recovery is amazing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We're here supporting you. You can do this. You not only can learn from this but you can flourish because of it. That's my belief. Tell me yours.

LA

LA,

Thanks for all the insight. I read through all of Adrian post. I must say we are going through just about the same thing. And you have alot of good points.

I think I understand Plan A. I read through it again and I understand that the other person has to go. I tell my wife it hurts so bad when she does anything with him. She just says I don't have to worry they are just friends. She goes out quiet often. like 3-4 times a week for sure. She always goes to the bar where he works. she tells where she is and I do a drive by and she is where she says but his car is there too. She doesn't always tell me he is there to. The other day she said she had to talk to him and I told her it feels like your stabbing me in the heart every time you talk or go to see him. Ecspeacially when you go to his house. She said if we meet for supper somewhere would that not hurt as bad. I said no your still seeing him. Then she just gets defensive.

We've always been the fun couple always out and about. After the little tiger I feel like I'm a single dad at times. Don't get me wrong I love that little girl to death but its so hard when shes having a bad day and crabby. With the burdun of everything thats going on just makes it worse. I know I have to be strong for her. I have an 8 year old from a highschool fling. I try to be there for her as much as I can be too. My wife has a hard time getting along with her mother. She says I don't have a spine when it comes to that blank but you'll stand up to me everyday of the week. Its so hard to for me to be a stubborn person. I've always been told I'm to nice.

You tald adrian he has to say what he feeling and ther should be no harm in that b/c that the truth. I think thats true but I feel like I push her away when I say something. I said to her the other day I feel bad for our girl b/c she didn't do anything to deserve her mom not spending time with her. She said what do you mean but that? I said when was the last time you gave her a bath? silence. Then I said when was the last time you changed her diaper? She was quiet for some time and then just said alright I get it Im a horrible mom. I said your a great mom your just not being the best mom you can be right now. Did I push it to far when I said when is the last time you changed her diaper when she was probably really think about the first question I asked? Maybe, but its what I wanted her to know.

We agreed to give eachother some space to be alone so we can think about ourselves and our lives and where we want to go with them. But her Idea of being alone is going to the bar were he works. I just want to scream!!! Do I tell her I'm going to be gone each night of the week and she can stay home with the little one? I cant b/c I want to be there with both of them.

I just want to be the best husband that I can be and obviously I haven't been I know I've done some of the lovebusters. I'm changing that. We each took a love busters questionire and she says it didn't help her at all. Our counsler now gave us an EN questioner I've takin the time to fill mine out but I don't believe she has. Do ask her if sh has done it or do I just let her dicide on her own if she wants to do it.

Everything I read says that a WSs mind is really foggy at this time in there life. Don't suppose there is anything I can do to help her realize that she isn't always thinking rationally? It just hurts me so bad when she say things like I didn't ever want to marry you in the first place. I keep being honest with her and I've told her all I want from her at this point to be completely honest with me weather she thinks I don't want to hear it or not. Am I being pushy when I tell her that I love her and that I want us to work out our problems and move on together from this mess?

I asked her last night if she liked herself right now? Big mistake?? She said she hates her life right now! I said is there anything I could do to help her? Listen to me! I said ok Im listening. No your not I already told you what I wanted and I said it was over!!! Im not trying anymore but you keep pushing me to try and Im done! I just sat back and said Im hurt inside and out Im sorry you feel that way. then she had to go to a work meeting.

Why does she keep changing her mind? It seems one minute she is trying by the way we talk and then I can tell that shee has talked to him b/c she gets really short and bitterlike with me. Im truely giving her all my attention in those few moments when it feels like she is trying. And I just try to leave things alone when she is being bitter.
Another question I have is she talks alot about him and his problems to me. What am I suppose to do?? It drives me crazy trying to talk about the man that has completely ruined my life! If I don't say anything she says you don't care. I say I care just not about him! What can I do to get her mind off him? I know get rid of him but how? She has to want that before it can happen RIGHT? Thanks so much for all of your concerns and suggestions. I wish I could have seen the light sooner and gotten to this site sooner.

WA,

Thank you for continuing to post and reading Adrian's thread. I feel like I repeat myself a lot. That helps.

Vent here. You can release some of the pain here and get used to having honesty as a pattern. You're very expressive and are good at conveying who you are. Do you think of yourself that way? Someone who puts all of themselves out there?

"I think I understand Plan A. I read through it again and I understand that the other person has to go."

I wanted you to tell me all that you understand about Plan A and what I read is that the critical part of it is ridding your marriage of the other person. How are you going about this? Have you exposed to his work? Does he have a gf or wife? His family. Your family. Her friends, your friends? Look up MelodyLane and worthatry's threads. They are experts at it.

Who do you have to rely on that supports your marriage. Great on the counselor, I must say! So, present tense, you're still going?

What was the result of your LB questionnaire? What did she see as your biggest ones? How are you changing that response. I totally get that changing how you LB when under this kind of stress appears the worst time instead of the best. But it is. Trust me.

You are stating your feelings when she has contact. What I hear is that you're expecting a different result--like, uhm, compliance? Care? Concern? Not unreasonable--unless your spouse is in an A. Change your own expectation. You're stating your thoughts and feelings to begin the pattern of "I feel" "I believe" statements for the rest of your life. That helps ease not doing it to get a certain response, hence disappointment and what feels like pain.

I felt like all my emotions at the time felt like pain. Another method I used to mitigate this was to concentrate on seperating out the pain into what it really was--rejection, disappointment, frustration, anger, etc. And when my focus would slip back to the cause of those, my H, I would reel me back in and looked at what I was feeling underneath each of those...frustration came from my own agenda, wishful thinking, childlike intense desire for the present to be different, and underneath that one, fear--of the pain not stopping, being caught in a time hole, fear of abandonment. Lots of layers. Great distraction.

"She just says I don't have to worry they are just friends." Forget the content of the statement. It is disrespectful. She is telling you how to feel. It wasn't what you expected/desired to hear. That's where your pain is coming from. You're hearing, "Your pain doesn't matter to me. All I value is me." This is where you take back your responsibility for owning your own feelings. Then it isn't a matter of your pain not mattering to her fogged out brain. It is yours. It is information and has a purpose. Work on understanding it. It is an important part of Plan A. If you fall into the cycle of hearing "Your pain doesn't matter to me" and wanting her to know more of your pain so she'll stop causing it, then you're wrestling with a ghost. Won't ease anything, only increase the craziness you feel.

You have an expectation of honesty from your WS. That she will tell you where she is, who she is with and why she's there. Heck, she won't even tell herself the truth. Remember that. Until she commits to no contact, she won't be transparent. She's actively in an A. She's on a drug terribly powerful. And you mentioned her drinking (in another thread?) so know that she's giving herself over to the drug readily and willing to go to great lengths to soothe her own pain.

WS always look happy in A's. They aren't. Their pain is real and they keep making more of it. Ups the intense need for more drug. Vicious cycle, too. Remove yourself from being in her shoes and looking through her eyes. It's a terrible place.

I see part of your pain as being in shock that the way you manipulate love isn't working any more. If you treat her well, she responds well. If you don't, you get punished. If she doesn't respond as you'd expected, you punish. There is a subtle dance you do with her that is worth examining. It kept you both feeling balanced, safe and full of trust of the dance, not each other. That is what is all upside down right now. Your responses aren't provoking the old ones. This is good. Feels awful. Love by manipulation isn't balanced, safe or trustworthy.

"I've always been told I'm to nice." Did you take that as a compliment? Examine that. Many times people will judge others that way when they are attempting to say, "I can't know you. You only show me one side." It can be a block to intimacy. Anything to an extreme, WA. Remember that. You want to bring you, as you are, which by virtue of being made by God, is whole, worthy, lovable and valuable. No action required. You just are. You are. When you have a good trait and you take it too far, then you are telling yourself what you do makes you loved, valued, worthy. Don't do that to yourself anymore, 'k? You're a human being, not a human doing.

The expression of self is really important. That IS true intimacy. I know this might be contrary to everything you believed--you're not alone. We are taught the opposite from everywhere. How's that working for us?

"I said to her the other day I feel bad for our girl b/c she didn't do anything to deserve her mom not spending time with her." You got this half correct. You stated your concern. Great. How about this...is this more authentic? "I have been thinking of how to be a good father to our daughter. I feel inadequate for being both a mother and father. I fear for her future and mine. My biggest desire is for her to have us both, together, to show her the way to love. I fear her growing up and having to go through something like this."

I didn't say, "Say the truth." I said, "Say your truth." There's a huge difference. You can't control anyone else. Just you. Not even your daughter. At her age, I think you're beginning to already see she's her own precious self. It is an LB in my book to ask when the last time your WS was a mother to her child. That's judgment. This woman has felt judged, inadequate, ridiculed and less than everyone else all her life. That's what makes the A drug so darn potent. Don't try to wake her up with manipulation. Consequences aren't manipulation.

Exposing is bringing truth to light. Natural and logical consequence. Your pain, the damage to your family and your daughter are consequences. I'm asking you to act from your own code and not based on her possible responses.

When WW said she hated that you won't stand up to the mother of your older child, did you validate her? Did you say, "I hear that you feel anger and frustration when I choose to do what _____ says I should and not what you think is right. You don't feel heard or valued. You feel second best." You know I'm making up this stuff to say--I know you have your own words and they are difficult to reach because they lay in your compassionate, understanding self. There's pain blocking you. Retaliation for protection from more pain is readily at hand. I know this. I'm asking more of you. I am asking you to be bigger than you are today.

This was a concern your whole marriage for her. WS or not, go back in your head and learn how that response was needed many times, from your heart, and you didn't give it. You felt attacked, being told you were wrong instead of just doing something wrong. Look at that. You felt it, but that didn't mean your then loving W was attacking you. She was trying to tell you something important. Worth revisiting.

I'm not saying you caused this A. Tell me how you contributed to the state of the relationship.

When she said the LB questionnaire didn't help her at all, she was filling out yours, right? What did it say she saw as your LBs?

What did you say were hers to you?

"It just hurts me so bad when she say things like I didn't ever want to marry you in the first place." The only cure for this pain is to realize she has a current opinion. That you believe it is your choice and that you are hurting yourself by doing so. Own that. It's really difficult. You're not crazy. But look at how you depend on her love to know your own happiness. She has said other things before the A that would hurt you. You have done the same. You each gave the other your power and now it is in the hands of an addict. Take it back. Act and believe by choice, not reaction. You can do this.

"Am I being pushy when" Are you being manipulative? That's pushy. Are you saying your truth, "I believe we can have the best relationship of our lives. What I'm learning tells me that marriage can be amazing. I want to save our marriage with all my heart, for you, me and our child." Or are you saying such things to get her to stop hurting you and your child? Makes all the difference in the pain levels.

When you say it to manipulate, part of the pain is self-betrayal. It is. Hard to find in all that blinding white searing stuff, but it is true. The betrayal comes in by feeling false, desperate, using tactics instead of your truth. Betrayal feels the same whether someone else is doing it or we are doing it to ourselves. That's my belief.

Think about all the ways you are betraying yourself--she's focused on someone else, not you. You feel replaced, discarded--I used to tell my WH I felt like Kleenex--and a part of this, is you believing you can be anything of those things. You can't. You are. You exist with her focus or without. You are irreplaceable. You're unique. That's your self's truth. Own that. Understand that. It's the only part you control.

She is disrespecting you. Are you respecting yourself?

"She said she hates her life right now! I said is there anything I could do to help her? Listen to me!"

I said that. I hate my life. My WH said that, too. It is in the script. It justifies any action to not hate our lives. You're not exactly loving yours right now, either, are you? "I hear you hate your life right now." Repeat. Respond with hearing her, not fixing her. She's sick of you, the fixer, the Mr. Perfect, the one who makes her feel less than human, a screw up--I used to say, "A human wrecking ball." Just listen. Repeat. Take in. Fixer/pleasers are abusers in my book. They tell the other person you have no respect for their abilities to examine and fix their own lives. Tells them they can't change unless you tell them how to do it. Think about it. Makes you feel worthy of love and in the very action, your response of "What can I do?" the other person hears two things--one, it's about you not her, and two, she is too lame to do it on her own.

Give back that respect. "I believe you know what you're doing. I know you hear my pain and my thoughts." That's the fog-cutter...respect.

Give it and ask for it. You did that here "all I want from her at this point to be completely honest with me weather she thinks I don't want to hear it or not." Standard issue WS, but also, pre-A conflict avoider. "I can't tell you because it will hurt you." You said, tell me anyway. Knowing your truth is worth the pain. My choice. And I will do the same for you. I know you can take it. You're strong and make your choices, too. I know your intent is not to hurt me but to be truthful. Mine is the same."

Live by it.

"I said it was over!!!" Did she mean the A or the marriage?

You are making yourself crazy by falling into the DJs of your prior marriage. Assumptions and mindreading. Don't go there. Have more respect. Don't judge her progress, commitment or actions. Look to your own and it will keep your sanity. In MC, talk about your belief that an affair doesn't end until there is no contact for life. Ask about a marriage contract (like on this site) and speak positively of what you've learned about your old patterns and your excitement for your new ones. Listen. Don't interrupt. Follow the rules of conversation. Contain your first automatic response and look at it before speaking. Define your truth and carefully say it.

You can do this. You're coming so far so fast, it might feel desperately false. This is what you're doing for you. Not just for the marriage. You can't control her, and if your marriage ends, you don't want to recreate it, do you, with someone else? That depends on you and your growth, not finding someone not like your wife. It is on you. For you and your daughter, go inward. You've been living outward. Come home.

LA

thanks LA

first of all last night, I asked her what her and her friends have said about me. she said they think your stupid! Stupid for trying to get me back, its not going to happen Im going to do it again maybe a week from now maybe a month maybe in six months I'll do it again and you don't deserve me. I said what I hear you saying is that you want to continue in an affair because you don't think I deserve to have someone like you? Then I asked how do you feel about me being here for you? She said I think your stupid, why would you want to be with someone like me. I said when I walked down the isle and told you till death do us part and whenever we had problems we agreed we would try to work them out together. Well Im done (with our marriage) Im done trying done Done DOne DONe DONE DONE!!! I just sat down and started to cry and said calmly that i really feel hurt right now and i would like to talk later. Then she said if you would listen in the first place we wouldn't even be living together. I said I didn't to choose to have the affair you made that choice But I did contribute to our unhappiness and Im willing to change that. Just shut up would you!!! She then left. Probably to see him. I never asked. Now this morning she gave me a hug before she left for work and I said have a good day. Why does she do this!!

When I got home from work yesterday I asked if she talked to him and she said he called me and we talked about his aa class that he is in. I said so you only talked to him once today. She said yes. I know thats not true b/c I looked at her phone and he called her yes but then she called him later on. I didn't say anything. I just can't believe whe would lie to me so much. From what i've been reading its just one of the things a WS does to ease there own pain, guilt.

When you say expose the A as much as possible what exactly do you mean? Do I tell my family? I really don't see how that would help. Honestly I think it might hurt us in the long run. It sounds like she told alot of her friends. I've only told a few of my very best friends that I know will stand behind me in whatever I choose to do, they've told me that. Should I feel embarrassed? I do. I've thought about why I feel embarrassed and feel embarrassed because I wasn't the best husband I could be and now it shows. Thats how I feel.

I just set up another appt. with MC yesterday. I haven't told WW. I'm scared. I want to go for myself and us. I feel that she'll think Im pushing her to go. Should I say something like " I have an appt w/MC on date for the both of us but if you choose not to go I'm still going for myself" Thats not being manipulative is it? It how I feel right now. If she doesn't want to go well thats her choice not mine. I want to go for me so I can be a better husband and father.

On the LB we kind of just flew through it b/c she said it didn't do anything for her. So the counsler just asked what number we circled and dishonesty was the one we both had circled as a problem for us. We talked alittle on that. Also another thing for her was respect. I don't respect her enough. Honestly how am I suppose to respect someone that would do this? I know have to look into that more b/c she wouldn't have said it if it hadn't been a problem before.

I asked her last night if we could go out to supper and then maybe a movie or the comedy club together fri night, just us two. She said no Im going out drinking with my friends. I couldn't help but cry. Why do I do this to myself I new she would say she was going out with her friends. Why does she expect me to sit at home with OUR child all the time. I want to be with the little one don't get me wrong but why should I put up with this. Also earlier this week she was excited about a family get together we have on sat night (my side) and now last night she said she isn't going b/c I have to get used to going to those things on my own. She also said she thinks my uncle is going to try to give her a pep talk. He is my very best friend since my mom pasted and we come to eachother whenever and whatever the problem is. He is the only one one in my family that nows whats going on. No one in her family knows and knowing her family that is probably best.
I'm not comfortable telling family b/c frankly Im still embarrassed. What do you think about telling them? What if she doesn't go? Everyone always has so much fun with her and she has fun too so they will all ask where is she. Do I cover for her and say she had a birthday party? Thats not being true to myself. Should I rather say we are having some marital problems right now and we are working trying to work through them. I guess in away I want to keep them from the pain that I've gone through. Does that sound stupid or what.

When people tell me Im to nice I take it as a complement but also as an insult. Wierd I feel good that people think Im nice but I sometimes get the impression that they think they can walk all over me at the same time b/c I wont stand up to them. Thats one thing Im working on. Being stronger you might say. Telling people how I really feel about something instead of saying nothing. Its so hard at this time iin my life with everthing happening to not come across as and a-hole though. Im working on it.

Thank you so much for the support. Also to I've been having i dont know hesitation about continueing to be there for her. I can't help it its what I feel. I feel its not fair to me and my girl to have to "wait around" for mom to straighten out. Is this normal. How do I know if she'll ever wake up? plan A says to set a date. I don't feel that would be fair right know b/c it has been fairly recent. I still want her as my wife. Its just so hard whenever she puts me down.. Thanks again.
still fighting to save marriage.

WA,

I know you're trying to make the fog logical, but these types of questions won't help:

"I asked her what her and her friends have said about me."

You are asking a liar to tell you the truth. Fog is fog because it is lies your WW tells herself. Please, be more logical than that. What I think you were asking for is what influence could cut through the fog, maybe her friends?

Maybe you aren't asking that. Maybe you are saying, "What other people think of me is critically important." Is that it? Embarrassment would keep you from saving your marriage? You'd rather save your self-image instead?

I'm not bashing you but trying to comprehend you. I have to remember my own mortification of anyone finding out about MY affair. That gets me to where you are--but wait, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BE EMBARRASSED ABOUT! Oh, yeah, huh. And I told everyone about my H's affair, you betcha buddy.

You did not cause your wife to stray, to violate your vows, trust and heart. You didn't. You couldn't. You can't control anyone else in your entire life. Not possible. She chooses to be in an affair.

Did you happen to mark "Independent Behavior" on your Lovebusters questionnaire? Just a thought. HUGE IB there, the going out with others instead of you. She wants to egg you on so that you will become the bad guy, the one who caused the A. Please don't buy into that. It only works if you believe it. Why did she hug you and wish you a good day? Because she loves you!!!! She wants to be your wife. Why? Because you meet her needs in many ways. Just not all of them, all of the time. That would be really tough to do.

Can you tell I'm ignoring your "I'm done. I'm done done done" part? I said that so many times, out loud and inside myself. I wasn't. You don't sound done either. You are still in shock and you know it. I like that about you.

I only care how you see yourself. I'm not judging--won't think bad of you if you ship her out of the house fast, make her pay child support and limit her visitation with your precious daughter. I won't. I won't think badly of you for staying, doing a sterling Plan A, learning, developing your own code and turning into a stellar father and husband. Your life, not mine. No judgment. Hope that doesn't disappoint you.

Up to you to expose or not. If you don't, the A won't end but your marriage will. That's my belief. Yes, having friends and relatives know of her A is tough down the line. But not a deal breaker. They are not living your life. They will not experience your level of pain. This is also a hidden opportunity to get family relationships on a great track, also. You act from your code and not from how they might react. Own your life, WA. It's yours.

I saw a picture on the net with a huge plywood sign on top of a house on a corner that said, "My wife Nadine is having an affair!" How much do you want your marriage?

Again, look to your motives for exposure. If you do it to shame your wife, it won't work. If you do it to manipulate your wife, it won't work. If you do it because you stand for the truth...and "the" is appropriate because your wife is actively having an affair...then the truth is on your side. Yes, you have to withstand feeling embarrassed--even if no one reacts as if it is your fault. If people say, "Wow, why aren't you out the door?" (and they will) you can say, "I found marriagebuilders.com and understand relationships a lot better. This isn't my deal breaker. It's the start of a great life as soon as my wife stops contact. Can you help?"

"My vows are still intact. I want to honor my marriage and keep my family together for us and my little girl. Will you help me?"

Have you been tested for STDs? Both of you have to be, you know. Another consequence. Nasty one. Very doable. Not fun. Look up a clinic. Until she goes, use condoms. Be adamant about that. Tell her that making love is how you feel intimate with her, but you won't risk yourself.

Why can't you get a babysitter and go with your wife on Fri night? Brainstorm up some really great choices you can make. "Why are you here?" "I want to save my marriage."

About saying your thoughts and feelings...

"Should I feel embarrassed? I do."

Awesome. You're getting there already. You do feel embarrassed. The should/have to/must/oughts can hit the road. You feel what you feel. Just stop trying to get your WW to feel stuff, 'k? Shame, guilt, etc., do not cut through the fog. And respect?

Matter of definition. "I respect you," can mean, "I admire you for who you are." "I look up to you." Or, as I have meant it, "I respect you are complete and seperate person than I am. I know you can't mindread or assume what I'm thinking or feeling. I promise not to do that to you." That's respect. What's her definition? Honor it. If she feels disrespected then find out what exactly that means to her. Honor it. That doesn't mean you're doing it, but it does mean she's felt it.

"I have an appt w/MC on date for the both of us but if you choose not to go I'm still going for myself" Very close. Very close to respectful. May I tweak? "I have an MC appt on date for both of us. I appreciate that it might be difficult for you and I know that it is your choice whether you go with me or not." Then you can just go without her if that's her choice. Don't say it ahead of time. Strengthen your choices to yourself...anything that looks like a threat, even hints at one, will backfire. Big kudos from me on the positive action of the appt. Good self-caretaking, too.

"She said I think your stupid, why would you want to be with someone like me." Big hug here, WA ((((())))) Now for my skewed perspective. Which hurt more...her opinion that you're stupid, or that she believes she's worthless? That should tell you if you can save the marriage right there. Your choice. Which hurts more?

"I just sat down and started to cry and said calmly that i really feel hurt right now and i would like to talk later. Then she said if you would listen in the first place we wouldn't even be living together." Boy, you both fix each other a lot, don't you? You did well, at the end, saying how you felt and respectfully asking for another talk time. She DOES feel your pain through the fog. She is saying, "Why are you doing this to yourself? I'm trash! Dump me!" She wants you not to feel pain. She's a mess. Poor thing.

You are one heckuva man, WA. Your tears are your strength. You are doing this to do the right thing. You can take suffering, anguish, self-growth and hope. You are being adult. Thoughtful. Careful. You are worth this. She is worth this--only one of you believes this.

Why not get rid of her cell phone?

Until she is willing to do a No Contact letter and be transparent to you, do not torture yourself with catching her in lies. That you are doing to yourself. Tell her, "Until you are prepared to re-commit to the marriage by sending a no contact letter and be transparent, I will assume that you are continuing your A." Leave it at that. It's your truth. It's what you already know. She doesn't believe it's an A unless she's undressed with OM. She can't own that and still get her fix, see?

"she isn't going b/c I have to get used to going to those things on my own." Okay, I'll slap her for ya. (not really) "Dear wife, please do not tell me what I have to get used to. I respect that you are choosing not to go. I hear you say that you do not consider yourself a part of the family, is that correct?" Bring home the consequences. Stop reacting to her words and give them back to her. Let them echo, not argue. She made her choice about you, not her. Fogese. Nuts. That is a loss to her, not you. You're not giving up your family, she is.

Up to you whether or not to expose Saturday night. What about her family? Her work? Did you look up worthatry's Exposure threads? There's 101 and now, 102. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He's progressive.

The most difficult thing for me was buying into the "we're no longer married in my heart" crap. Don't do that. You're married until a judge says you aren't. You are her husband. She is your wife. Emphasize that. It is the truth.

"Also to I've been having i dont know hesitation about continueing to be there for her." Redefine what you mean by being there for her. Actively attempting to meet her needs, improve yourself, expose and end the A, or helping her cheat on you? Read up on independent behavior. Call the Harleys. Stay proactive. You build your own self-esteem this way and the "unfairness" diminishes. You are worth it. Your child is worth it. If Mom had a mental disease, she'd be worth it. Affairs come so close to being that, I swear. They are curable, but punishing. How would you want a wife to be there for you if you were going through this? I dunno. I did it. Anybody can do it. I was a mess.

She can't put you down. You can feel put down. If I said you had a purple head, would you feel put down? No. You don't have a purple head. You know it. You know you're not stupid, too. You know that's another person's opinion and it CANNOT define you. That's your job. Lessen your pain. You want her admiration, appreciation, demonstrated love and support. Give that to yourself for now. Admire what you're doing and you won't feel resentful--you're choosing this path, knowing it is a hero's journey. Lots of perils and rewards. What you do now and until it is over, one way or another, will add to you. And that addition can never be taken away by anyone. It is yours.

"instead of saying nothing." Here is where I see your LB of dishonesty. You're correcting that now. You are sensitive to lying because you've done so, many times, by omission. Probably thought it didn't hurt anybody, right? That it was a good thing. A good lie. Nope. You can feel walked on but no one can do that to you. Self-betrayal in not speaking your thoughts and feelings. Standing up for yourself is an act of love. Because you held it in so often, you told yourself (without words) you weren't worth it, aren't valued or cared for as human being. That can feel like being walked on, used. Keep trying to stay in that perspective, 'k? It isn't being done to you--you do a lot of the stuff to yourself that angers you when you see it in others.

LA

P.S. Comedy Club, definitely. I did stand up. Need people in audience. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Im totally at a loss of words... You've told me so much that hits me right between the eyes. Im so thankful for finding MB I don't know where I would be without all of you an everyones support. thank you all sooo much..

You're absolutely right about wanting to save my self image before my marriage. I want to save my marriage more than anything right now. I really ahve to think this over about telling everyone. I should listen to you about it hey you've been there. I believe Im hesitant b/c of some of the reactions I'll get from certian family members. I have a very very very close relationship with all of my family its how I was raised. A family that plays together stays together. For that reason Im scared certian members may be very bitter towards my WW for a long time for hurting me the way she has. I thought about the embarrassement thing and today I was reading some other post and I realize why should I be embarrassed I should be praised for wanting to save our marriage and our family. It wasn't me stepping out the door it was her. Her choice. I find myself still looking out for her feelings alot and I don't want her to hurt but you are right she chose to do what she has done and now she has to own her own life. I can't do that for her. I have to continue to work on owning mine.

You say "yes having friends an realtive now of the A is tough down the line" what do you mean by that? Like tough b/c some don't accept your h for who he is or what?

About the babysitter thing. I've told WW that I would like for us to find an evening sitter that we both like and we think would be good with our daughter so that we can go out together more often. She just kind of brushed me off. I've been looking through the paper and asking co-workers if they know of any good sitters but haven't made a whole lot of progress since this whole thing came up. She said she had plans with her friend for girl talk. Tell you the truth this friend is really starting to piss me off b/c her and her husband are always fighting(so my wife says) and she wants to go out all the time and talk. Two fogs don't make it clear!!

Well on a good note I think I did my best today. I waited until dinner to make contact with her and I just asked how her day was going? she said really good. I said thats great Im having a busy but good day too. She then said she was going to the bar where her girlfriend works(this girl does have a clear head on her shoulders). So about 2 i texted her and asked her if she wanted me to come kick her butt in a game of pool? she said can you get off? I can pull some strings. I got there about three and we played a few games of pool and just talked about our day. It was really kind of fun once. I left to go get our daughter from daycare and came home and she came home shortly after. She is gone again now with that ****** of a friend. Ya know the one shes suppose to go out with Fri night. I told her when she was at home that they wouldn't have anything to talk about tomorrow night since they were texting eachother all day and now they are going out together. Oh yes we will girl talk.. BARFFF what the h e double hockey sticks is "girl talk". Im sure they are at the bar were he works and I think I told you that I told her last night that as long as she sees him and/or is in contact with him It is an affair.


What hurts me the most is that she thinks she is worthless. She has always been looked up to by so many people including me that I just cant believe she would even think that about herself. Shes worked so hard to get where she is at in life and i commend her for that. Maybe i haven't done it enough. If Im thinking that I guess I probably haven't. Big LB WA! Ya know I just thought about that now. Thanks LA you've helped me find yet another LB in my marriage.

Ive read and im in the process of reading worthatrys threads yes. very helpful.

I told her she has to be tested for std's yes. We haven't had a physical relationship since last year and she says there PA happened twice this year. She has an appt. monday. I suppose I should still have one done? That brings up another issue. I've been having a hard time a night fetting to sleep b/c I think about what they did together and to be honest it litterally makes me sick. Great wieght lose plan this whole thing is. I lost just about 20 pnds. Ive been trying to lose them babies for so long. Don't worry I'm taking better care of myself now that I was before. Not only mentally but physically too. What I'm after is did you have these thoughts and what did you do? I suppose it will take time. To be honest I don't think i could even have an intimate night with WW right now b/c that is to fresh in my mind. I never used to read a darn thing. Since this happened thats all i do. I'm really starting to enjoy it. Maybe you know of a good book for this. I was thinking about getting the His needs/Her needs book. Sounds like alot of people really get alot of help from that one.

Its really crazy how you called my WW a poor thing. why? B/c I call her that whenever she has a bad day or she is sick or just when things aren't going her way. I now shes a mess right now and as you already now and so many other out there feel the same as I do all I want to do is have her be her happy little self again. I know she has to do it. I pray I can be there the day she finds herself back!

Thanks again soo much to you LA and all of you others for being so supportive.

Quick thing. Where do I find those no contact contracts. I should start to work on one don't you think?

Wow is she ever pissed off now. I guess I got busted trying toget cell phone records and now she change the password and wont tell me what it is.

Last night when she got home. 2:30am from the bar she said I think Im going to move into an apartment. I calmly replied that I respect her choices that she make and I hope you consider the consequences for your actions. She said she wanted to end it now so it doesn't have to get ugly. I said you want to endit now so it doesn't get ugly? isn't it alread ugly. I want you as my wife and no matter what happens you'll always be my daughters mother but in no way can a divorce not get ugly. I personally don't think its possible. she well why can't we just be really good friends. I said if we get divorced there will be things that both are not going to like so how will we still be friends. She I just want our baby to have loving happy parents. I said I want her to have loving happy parents in the same home, like a family should be.

I think its time to take charge and I plan on doing it tonight. I went through our checkbook that she always has b/c she takes care of the finaces and I added up all the money she spent in the last month at bars. Almost a $1000! Im still in shock! I never thought she would ever piss money away like this. Then she has the nere to tell me we're broke. like its my fault!

She also said last night that if she goes and gets papers drawn up there is nothing I can do about it I have to sign them. I just said thats a choice you have to make. She then said I told you it was over why do you keep trying. I said what I think I hear you saying is, you don't wnt to be with me b/c you think I don't deserve you? She said NO I mean just what I said.

I guess Im totally lost. I can tell shes been talking to this other friend that is in the FOG b/c she only acts and says crap this harse after shes spent time with her. I don't know what to do anymore.
I'm going to continue with plan A and start revealing the A. Im just scared this will push her out the door for sure. I don't want that. HELP!!

To the first post, WA,

"Im hesitant b/c of some of the reactions I'll get from certian family members." Solid self-honesty here. You begin and end with this in both posts...don't want to push her out the door, don't want your close family to hold this against her...please tell me honestly, have you been controlling your life for a really long time? Other people's choices are your fault? Or reward? Do you only know when you do the right thing when someone else says, "Hey, you did the right thing?"

Again, no bashing. Commiserating. I would have had to answer yes to all of that before now. You know the "What you sow, so shall you reap?" (and no, you can't say it three times really fast). This is what I believe we do. When we believe we can make people react in certain ways, then we reap that by believing that THEY make US react...live life on their terms. If someone else is making their choices by their emotions, then you, too, are subject to living your life by THEIR emotions. Are ya with me?

You love and trust your relatives to be who they are for as long as you live. They will feel your pain, side with you, go against you, and in the end, still be close with you, no matter what. Is that right?

What you don't control you are not responsible for. Messing with that truth gets us feeling crazy and helpless. Keep that straight in your mind. You can't control others' reactions. You don't want to. You want to honor your family, respect them as the people they are and accept them. Their choices, your choices, anyone else's choices.

You can get there. You can't make your WW stop having an A, stay at home, push her away, nothing. Her choices.

Your choice, to pull some strings and spend a little time with just her, mid-day, was awesome to me. Shows priority, willingness and that you enjoy her presence. Don't do what I did and call her a poor thing in your mind. That was as bad as all my typo's in the sentence you didn't understand. She is a human being suffering from not knowing herself, understanding her life, and believing that love is earned. You were a lot like that, but I didn't call you poor thing. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that. It is a DJ...and it implies she isn't human, but a "thing" in my POV.

Now for the embarrassing typo..."You say "yes having friends an realtive now of the A is tough down the line" what do you mean by that?" I meant to say, having friends and relatives know of the A is tough down the line, but not deal breaking.

From believing love is earned, we expect that love can be lost as well, for misbehavior. Remember that for every belief there is an equal and opposite one hiding in there, like a two-for-one deal. If you tell yourself, "I can do better at my job..." then you are also saying, "I suck/screw up/not enough at my job." I don't know why it is that way, but that's where reverse compliments come from. Stay aware what you say to yourself. Two edges, if not more.

When W says, "Why do you keep trying?" "I believe you're worth my effort and so am I." I know you were trying to show me that repeating back backfired. LOL Okay, you showed me. Still try it, though, 'k? "Why do you keep trying?" "I don't understand the question. What is your meaning?" Different ideas here. "Why do you keep trying?" "That is what I choose to do."

(I almost typed it again...poor thing. Ohmy. Then I remembered John Galt's worst fear (Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged), being locked in a room with an unreasonable man. I wonder how much Ayn was used to fog babble? That might be why a lot of BS react over and over by treating their WS as real spouses, because the BS has Galt's fear.)

Hmmm.

Since you don't have a sitter for tonight, how can you insure that she stays home with your daughter? Who picks up precious girl from daycare today? If it is her, can you call and say you're going out without coming home? I don't like her independent behavior, but then, I don't have any good answers for it. No Contact letters (not contracts) are all over the boards. Search I guess. Sorry. I'll try to gather links and keep them for the future. You ask her to write the actual letter, but it has to contain three things...tells the OM that she loves you and does not want any contact because she will be working on her marriage. And acknowledges that what they did was wrong, violated your marriage and hurt an innocent child.

WA--this OM isn't married, is he? Does he have a gf to expose to?

You sound stronger than you have in days. Way to self-care. Now to bring that self-care up a notch, 'k?

"I've been having a hard time a night fetting to sleep b/c I think about what they did together and to be honest it litterally makes me sick." Here is where you aren't self-protecting. Yes, the images kick my gut and it was nauseating. I known that torn up feeling and felt attacked by these images. The more I realized that WH wasn't putting them in my head, that I was, that was when I started to stop them the stampede. You control only you...you can have a memory (and images are stored the same way as memories because our brains cannot tell the difference between real and unreal images...they are just the warehouse) come to mind, and if you get rid of it in less than 10 seconds, then you won't have the emotional reaction to it. See, your brain will run over and bring the image (it is helpful, thinking that is what you LIKE thinking about because you keep doing it), then it has to run off and grab the accompanying emotions that image evokes. Get rid of the image fast enough and you've stopped your annoyingly helpful brain mid rush.

I'm so scientific, huh? LOL

Seriously. You can do this with fantasies, harsh memories, the subtle ones that you feed yourself over and over again to keep you feeling comfortable with your favorite feeling--like guilt, rejection, shame, etc. Retraining your brain. The OM is nothing. Honestly. You'll see this over time. He's not better at a single thing than you are. He can't earn love any better. What does he have that you can never have? A clean slate. That's right. He doesn't have your years of history, good and not so good. She gets to re-create herself without fear of showing who she really is (all the while, she feels like she is). Just a clean slate, both ways. See where forgiveness, giving each other a clean slate will be paramount in recovery?

Good to know that her gf is helping to lead her down the nasty path, because it sounds like you don't believe your WW could be doing this without aid. You believe in her that much. Very cool. Nothing you can do about it. Talk to gf's husband? Maybe?

Hey, I just figured out you're southern! I feel pretty smart about that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, you're losing weight, hopefully working out (which is where I advise you to go when you go out and don't tell her), reading and patting yourself on the back for all of this. I'm surprised about the intimacy part, but not, I guess. I'm very relieved to know you're protected, and no, if she gets a clean bill, that's good enough. However, since she's still in active contact, I wouldn't necessarily trust her to tell you the true results. Up to you. Your life and health.

They aren't going out to girl talk...but to fog speak. As for spending money...take back the reins, WA. You can create seperate accounts, take back over the bills, the responsibility. I always did the bills, but one joint account. My H blew through $3k in his A. I seperated our finances and felt it broke down my last symbol of love. In it together, money and hearts. Well, they are still seperated. We aren't. So much for symbols.

Taking action is the key for you, WA. Finances (without DJs), exposing, listening, taking care of yourself. That's acting not reacting. There's your power. There's your source. You're doing this. You're getting there.

Cut off the cell phone. Honestly. You pay for it (with her) and have every right to the records. I can tell you how to get the password sent again, though, when she's asleep. LOL. Anger is not the opposite of love. Doesn't come close. Allow her anger to be yours and own your own. Means she has a boundary she made up from the belief that she is a private person and deserves to do stuff behind your back. Not a real great boundary, huh? Your anger is the same...you believe you have a right to know how often contact occurs with her AP. Hey, as a H, that's a reasonable boundary.

She can keep saying what she's going to do...but she doesn't do it, huh? Nod and repeat. "I'm getting my own apartment!" "You're getting your own apartment and leaving me with our house and child." That's what you heard, right?

LOL

Look up Orchid for reverse babble. I couldn't get close to doing it and admire it so much.

Do me a favor and relish a lot of the moments you aren't in pain during the day. You are appearing stronger right now, enjoy that. Tell yourself this is good--I am feeling good about myself, finding out how deep my pain goes and I'm still standing. What I thought would end my life hasn't. Teach that brain to retrieve a lot of good stuff.

Don't try to talk to her after she's been out. No staying up until 2:30am waiting. Mind your own sleep, your own self care.

Hang in there, WA,
LA

LA

No I haven't been controlling my life as much as I should be I'm working on that. I always feel Im doing the right thing I mean if Im not doing the right thing I feel that too. I kind of get what you're sayin about the living you life in other peoples emotions. You're absolutly right about my realtives. They will always be there for me. I still don't want them to have to go through the pain that this will bring some of them. I guess thats my to nice guy attitude coming out again. I should remember they will help me or they won't that is there choice.

I have to be honest with you at first reveal of the A all I could think is she is such a poor thing. Thats over. I think of her as that any more but rather a very lost and confused individual who I still love and appreciate.

I just recently before I got your reply talked to her on the phone and she did say why are you still trying and I said because I believe you are worth it and so am I. She was quiet for a bit and said i'll think about. Do you think she means she'll call her friend and ask her how foggy it is there? LOL. Seriously I feel like thats what she means.

About tonight. I usually always take her to daycare and pick her up. Wouldn't that be a LB if I just told her I was going out and stayed out until 3 in the morning when she already tod me she has plans? I want to do that I actually thought about doing it but I feel that would be disrespectful. Im suppose to welcome her home with open arms show her I can be a better husband. That means respect. Even if none is shown in return. The carrot of plan A. Do have this right? Maybe Im being to open, maybe it goes back to me standing up to her and saying its my choice to go out tonight and if you choose to go out its your responsibilty to find a sitter?

OM,, Still working on this guy. From what WW has told me is he is seperated going through divorce? Who knows for sure being the first time I asked her about him she insisted he is married he wouldn't try anything! LOL FOG. her story keeps changing from seperated to x so I don't know for sure. I know his sister works at a local resturant and im going to try to visit with her. She has been with WW and OM out to dinner but WW said she doesn't know whats going on between them. Time she finds out. Also OMs mom has called WW on cell phone so thats why I need those records so bad. Good idea on the taking her phone wwhile shes asleep. I really want to feel his sister and mom out for more info on his M or D or S. whatever it be.

" your getting your own apartment and leaving me with the house and the child" Thats exactly what I heard. Why couldn't I find those words last night?

True about talking to her at 2:30 in the morning. Who really is thinking rationally at that time anyway. especailly the ones that have been to the bar.

Well she asked me if I wanted to put the house up for sale? I said that is not a choice Im willing to make right now. She said well we cant afford it anyway. I said W some of or ways of lifestyle have to change and we can afford it. She said what do you mean by that? I said go ahead and add up the money that has been spent at bars in the last month. She said it cant be more than like 200 bucks. I said try lose to $1000. She said oh bs. I just said ou have the check book go throught and I will be happy to show you how I came up with that number when I get home.
It seemed to turn hear voice down. I have to stick to this when I get home and show her every line in that register and show her how I came up with the number I did.
I dont think she realizes how fast she can drink away 40 bucks! Maybe this can get through some of the fog.

Well thanks again.
still tying.

WA

"No I haven't been controlling my life as much as I should be I'm working on that."

I was saying the opposite. You are attempting to control your life when the reality is you can only control you. I need a writing coach. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"They will always be there for me. I still don't want them to have to go through the pain that this will bring some of them. I guess thats my to nice guy attitude coming out again. I should remember they will help me or they won't that is there choice."

Nice guy attitude? I thought of myself that way for most of my life. Sparing people pain. Guess what? You're causing it with disrespect. It is exactly the same thing your WS uses to NOT tell you stuff. They are sparing you pain. They are making the decision to withhold information. Why do that to people you know will be there for you? Remember when people say you have to give respect to get it? This is it. This is how you give respect...by not withholding information to spare. When you tell your pain you respect others to handle their own emotions just like you're handling yours.

It is a great way to live. All that nice guy responsibility that is a huge block to intimacy and honesty. Like letting out a lot of truth after a long time of lies. It is awesome.

"I think of her as that any more but rather a very lost and confused individual who I still love and appreciate." You rock. You just do.

I hear you on her giving you the response "I'll think about it" and her consulting her friend. Great that you can have this perspective because it stops you from being frustrated. You felt heard. Nice, huh?

About tonight...I told you I sucked with independent behavior. You're talking to a love addict, here (recovering) and I have no experience in it. I felt the counter Plan A as I advised you. I also know that Plan A is not being a doormat. Your choice. What, you think it will sink your chances? A deal breaker? I just don't think so.

OM--seperated and going through a divorce? Public records. Check on it. Worth paying for a background check, too. Absolutely. They all say stuff like that. Then they feel bad about telling their AP the truth. LOL Fantasyland. Call OM's wife. Just do it. Find out. Tell. Inform. Expose.

Excellent on OM's sister. Yes!

And yes to OM's mother, too.

Now, you have rehearse responses. When you are with her you're in some serious pain-addled state of mind. It is normal not to be able to come up with sound responses. Practice them. Honestly, it saved me. And you said putting the house up for sale right now was something you weren't prepared to do. That's awesome!

Tip on checkbook register...make a spreadsheet and track her personal stuff. It's the only way my H would believe me. Include date, place, check number and amount. Put in comments. It will show up this independent behavior, how often, and I think, it cut through the fog. You handled telling her really well. Have to tell you, I didn't. Maybe it will give you some hope, but it was before MB, and here's what I did.

"You see this? This is outrageous? What were you thinking?"

He answers something. "Oh, you thought that would cover it, huh? Well, what about your promise to pay back this? Huh?"

He says he didn't remember that until now.

"Well! I'm angry, appalled and if you think you're a man, you most certainly not! A man wouldn't do this to his family!"

Okay. Embarrassment over. I'm serious. I busted all over the place and treated him like a child---and that was BEFORE I knew he was boinking his asst mgr. :::: No wonder he waited a month after no contact to tell me, huh?

Pat yourself on the back. Lose any sarcasm you might be prone to, don't DJ, raise your voice or get parental. That's Plan A. That's integrity.

Feel better? You're doing great. Good luck tonight.

LA

well LA,

she got off work around noon today. She called me and said her and one of her old school friends where going to go hang out at the mall. Well about 2:30 we'll just say my job took me past OMs house. Yeah my wifes car was there. I then texted her. So you and your friend hangin out at the mall? hehe. she wrote back-no im hangin out with OM gonna eat pizza, dont be mad nothin goin on just tellinyou the truth. I replied thanks for your honesty. im hurt not mad, your choice to continue A. and I left it at that. you cant honestly imagine how raged I was!! I had to go and relieve myself on the side of the building at work.

Then she sent me a message telling me to pick up the little one and she'll see me at home. I was going to do what you told me to do and drop of the little one and leave and tell her to find a sitter if she wants to go out. Well I called her on the way home and said so you have a sitter for tonight? No why. Well I was going to go out and see if I could find some of my old buddies. She said well you can go out tomorrow night. I said we have that family thing tomorrow and we probably wont get back till late. She said we don't have to go. I said no we don't have to go but I am because I really enjoy going. Well I got hope hand the little tiger over and said I have to go do some things. Wow did I ever get 101 questions! Almost like im going out on a date with someone or something! I tried to answer them as nicely as I could and I went got a hair cut and got dog food then I felt I was disrespecting her. WHY! after all the times she has done it to me! Stay calm I now but sometimes I just have to yell. So I went home. and she then got ready to go and told me what she was going to do for the first hour of the night. and then she came and gave me a hug. She actually squeezed me! I just said Im confused. She said about what. I said that hug. she said well isn't that what you want. I said only when you actually mean it like that time. She said good bye I'll see you later. I might stay at my friends house. I said I would really enjoy having you here but if that what you choose to do thats fine. call me.

now it sounds like she is going tomorrow night. This woman cant make up her mind! Course what woman can. Just Playin. Trying to put a smile on my face is all.

You say in Plan A we are not suppose to be a doormate either. Sometimes I feel like I am. By trying to avoid confrontation. Like tonight, I could really tell she changed her tone (for the better) when I just walked in gave the little one a kiss and said i'd be back in awhile. She even calle and asked that I pick up some diapers and i said sure thing. She said thanks alot. Where did that come from? Maybe I have to set some more ground rules. but what can I use for consequiences? any suggestions.

Well thanks again for being here for me I cant thank you enough!

WA

Hey, you caved in and came home too early. You couldn't stand to be away. After the huge insult of her at OM's house (heck, I wanted to be sick when I read it!), I understand. 101 questions? Answer them with silence and vagueness. Find Orchid's thread of reverse babble. Staying at a friend's house? No. She's too old for sleepovers.

I'm sorry. I'm losing it. Glad you got the haircut. The dogfood. Disrespect? You were attempting to have your wife be the mother she is, not going out for the fourth time in the week without you.

"Sometimes I feel like I am. By trying to avoid confrontation." There is a difference between confrontation and conflict. Conflict exists. You have tried to avoid it forever. It is your MO. Be nice and it will go away. The other person with the issue you dodged is left feeling unimportant, not worth dealing with and a burden. Nice avoidance. I can't tell you how much rejection I've felt (real and imagined) living with a conflict avoider.

Now, tell me, what would have been disrespectful about not picking up the diapers? She could have gotten them and the dogfood instead of being at OM's. Seriously. Then you ask about consequences.

I can tell you about the squeeze, the being thankful and happy. The jealousy at not knowing where you were going. All Affair driven. She got her fix. She was high. Jealous...well, we project what we are doing onto others when we can't own up to it ourselves. Why didn't you go to your folks and have a sleep over?

I'm lousy at advice tonight. Sorry. I want these WS's to stop hurting people. I'm ashamed to my bones to have been one. I'm broken hearted for you, Adrian, Sutherland, so many others here. I want to hurt back those hurting you. I'm feeling really useless tonight.

Does sound like she's going to your family thing tomorrow night. But that's 24 hours away. Who knows? I hear you playin'...what does woman want?

And just yesterday I was working on changing my belief about pain. I'm back to being six years old and hating pain all over again. ::::

What did you find out about OM's marital status? I forget. How's that exposure plan coming?

LA

LA

I think im about to give up. I just want to pack all my things and my little girls things and leave. I just cant stand being in that house alone anymore! Shes always gone anyway so she probably wouldn't even miss us. I just cant stand watching her do these things to me anymore.

She went bowling with a friend last night right. So I texted her and said that her little girl wanted to go watch mommy bowl so where ou at so we can come watch. Instantly she replied no OM is here her friend invited him she didn't know he was going. I just wrote back " no wonder why you were so excited about bowling, well me and the little one will just go find someone that does want to be with us then". I know LB. I think I broke them all last night. I've just had it. I cant under stand how someone can be so selfish, dishonest, disrespectful on and on. I feel like Im trying to stop a frieght train! Its not happening.

I need your suggestions. I still haven't told anyone about the A. I was going to tell my dad last night he was in town and was going to stop by but he had something come up. Maybe its a sign he doesn't need to know. I dont know what to do anymore. Im so tired and confused and torn apart that I don't know if I can keep going like this.

((((WA)))))

I am so sorry for her contact. She is choosing to be friends with a woman who is no friend to her or your marriage. All contact is fresh betrayal. Did you tell her how it felt when she said she was with OM? Did you ask her to come home immediately? You can do that, even in Plan A. This plan is not to be a doormat.

But then, you're not really in Plan A, are you? You won't expose her A because of something in you. You are stuck. You don't want to push her out the door but you have images of you leaving with your child, not her.

You need the loving support of family and friends. You are manipulating them by not telling them. They might see you keeping this from them as a betrayal. Betrayal begats betrayal. Your choice.

Seems to me like you're not fighting for you marriage but rather fighting yourself. Caught between what is truth and what you want to believe. You're astonished your wife can be this way. She's a human being, fully capable of all evil and good. Her choices. She is under the influence right now of a drug. That's the difference. However, she is still herself.

And you have just as many choices. You can work on a no-contact letter, a Plan B letter. You can write out the pain here, what you're feeling and thinking and why you gave yourself permission to lovebust on her. She didn't make you do that. Her actions do not dictate your choices.

There's a fundamental conflict in you--you perceive your wife as being irresponsibly free and happy at your expense. Like you are paying for her to be that way. I fell into that when I wanted you to stay out Friday night. I get that. Seems very real and like there is no other way to think of it.

But there is.

Let me know other ways you can perceive your situation. Where your choices are (even the tiny ones). People are "hear" for you.

LA

I've asked her to not she him anymore and she said she really likes to spend time with him. They really have a good time together. I never asked her to come home when she told me she was with him. We said alot of things that probably hurt eachother pretty bad that night. I told her I was moving in with my dad and that our girl is moving with me. She said I cant take her daughter away from her. I said Im not taking her away from you Im taking her away from the lifestyle your choosing. I asked her to come home after she said she wasn't coming home. She said no. I then went and cried myself to sleep and to my surprise she came home around 1:00am. I never said a word and she didn't either. She was so drunk I don't think she new where she was. The next morning she left for work and she texted me and said she was sorry for what she said last night. I just wrote her back and said I think we both said some things we didn't mean lets try too have a good day and maybe we can spend some time together tonight. She said that sounds good.

So last night came. I was home all day with a sick kid. she got home around 4 I was at the Dr. with the little tiger we got back to the house about 4:30. She was sleeping. She then got up to her phoone ringing and then she said she was going out for supper with her friend. You want me to bring something home for you? I said well I have a roast in the oven I was thinking we were going to spend sometime together tonight. I don't think I want that and we will spend sometime together I'll be home in a little bit. She got home around 7. We really just watched tv and I tried to make small talk.

Today she stayed hoome with little one and before I left I gave my wife a hug and a kiss and she told me to have a good day. She asked me over the weekend if I wantted to go do this newlywed game thing at one of the local bars tonight but we have counseling. So I had to tell her that. It sounds like she is planning on going. Now that our little one is sick she wants me to call and change it. I said someone can watch her here at our house its only an hour. She is sick Im staying home with her. That would be a first! So I don't know what Im going to do yet. hoping she starts to feel better I guess.

The other night she said the only reason she is going is for me. I said I'll go for me and you can go for you if you want. She just never said anything.

I guess your right about me having images of leaving instead of her. I guess that wouldn't be right. Im not the one that is having the A. Im still nervous about hurting family. I kinda started the other morning by talking to my cousin and her husband the other morning about it. I told themm everything. I've told friends. I'm thinking about talking to her friend that my WW always uses for excuses. Staying at her place but not really staying there and things. I want to ask her to start being the kind of friend that she would want if she was married and not let my WW us her for excuses anymore. And to if she would please quit asking her to spend so much time with her and maybe mention things to my WW things like maybe you should take you baby and husband somewhere tonight. Or maybe I can watch the little one for you so you can go out for supper with your husband. And to please ask my WW to quit hanging out at that bar and quit seeing the OM. I think that would be fair to ask of her. Maybe if she could just say a few things like that my WW will think twice about what she is doing. ****** I don't know. Maybe her friend wants her to be single so they can keep hangin out.

This sat. night my WW and a bunch of friends are going out for her b-day. I planned on going with until last night when the WW asked me if I could watch one of her co-workers kids too. I was completely torn apart. I said well I guess I was hoping I could spend your birthday with you. She said well do you have a sitter then. I said I told you two weeks ago that my dad is planning to watch the girls. Then she said well does that mean I have to come home with you then? I just wanted to shoot myself right there. I never said anything then she said Im just kidding. I have a feeling that I just ruined her plans. She was probably planning on getting a present from OM after the night on the town. She then said well we are going to that bar b/c I want to see the band there so are you just going to stare at me all night again and watch every move i make again. I said just don't leave me sit at the table bymyself half the night again and I'll try not to stare. She just said whatever. I just asked I know its your b-day and i want you to what you want but I was wondering if we could maybe go someplace else. She said I told you I wanted to see that band thats playing. I said ok then.

Last time I was there all I wanted to do is kick this guys [censored]. I don't honestly think I can go there another night if he is there and not do something. I think down inside she wants me to do something so she has an excuse to leave then for sure. I can't help it thats all i can think about when I see him.

Did you tell your family about your WH while he was there or did you tell them when he wasn't around? What if I tell them and then she doesn't know I told them do I tell her that I told them or what? I really deep down inside want this marriage to work for us and espeacially for our girl. I know Im now Im not in plan A but there has been people that tell me telling family Might hurt you guys more if you two do decide to work things out. There might be a few that will never accept that you've worked past it. I guess I never been through it so I dont have any idea.

I can't keep following her anymore b/c it just kills me to see that she is with him when she says she is with her friends. But at the same time I can't sit at home and just wonder if she is telling me the truth. Even if I tell her I know she stayed at his place or I know your at his place during the day just that exposure doesn't seem be enough for them to quit so I guess I have to tell everyone.

I don't think if I wrote a no contact letter that she would
want anything to do with it right now. I don't know. Well
I guess I'll just go to counseling tonight see if she goes and maybe I'll mention it to the counsler and get his opion.

Thanks again everyone.

Well we didn't go to counseling last night. She is sick and so is our little one. The thing is I haven't rescheduled it yet. Is it really even worth going if she is still involved with the OM. I understand it is still good for me to go and I will. I think she wants to go but I don't want her to until she is committed to me and our marriage. I guess I don't want her to think Im making her go by making appt. I tell her it isher decision to go and not to go if she is just doing it for me. I think she feels like if she doesn't go that I will be mad. I've told Im going for myself so I can learn how to improve my relationships weather it is with her or someone else.

Im really stuck on a stepping stone. I don't know if I can reach the next one or not. But then I think what have I got to lose! It sounds like Im loseing my marriage anyway so what the heck, jump, if I miss Ill have to deal with it later.

Anyone have any good ideas for a birthday and then a V-day gift for someone that doesn't seem to love you but you still love with all your heart?? I just don't want it to be to much ya know. Any suggestions would help out! thanks

Yes, I told my family my H was having an affair. They live out of state. My H told his family he was having an affair and went to live with his sister after his OW called our house to speak with him.

Our friends were told, too. No one holds it over his head. They don't bring it up. It is our concern and it is over. Your choice, my experience.

Love forgives, lets go and respects. You don't know how much your family can do until you ask. If they have a problem later and want to bring it up, ask them not to--I have a feeling they'll respect what YOU want.

Why didn't you go to counseling by yourself? I think that is vital...to do what you say you're going to do makes a lot of difference. You said you were going and you didn't?

You know you can't make her go, WA. Her choice. You invite, do what you say you're going to do and why, and then do it. Leading by example, not manipulation.

Please don't disrespect her by saying, "Don't go if it is only for me." By saying that, you're telling her that you think she is a martyr or a saint, or a liar.

Allow her to make her choices, whether she DJs you and thinks you'll be mad or not. Sounds to me, about her bday and stuff, that she will not limit her choices based on your reactions. She may use words to say the opposite, but she's choosing others over you each day. That's not Plan A. Doormat is not Plan A.

Think hard about what she values, what says love to her. Think back pre-A to what she dropped hints or told you she'd love to have. My language of love is gifts...I want to tell you to get her a bday gift, a v-day gift and to get one from your daughter to her for each of those days as well.

Four gifts. Spreading out help you think of anything?

Hang over medicine? (That's not nice!) Something sentimental from a great trip you guys took, pictures, picture frames, a love song you wrote, a poem, a love letter...these are all mine. I have no idea. Is she visual, audible or kinetic? Can you get a guy to come sing to her at the sick bar in between sets a love song dedicated from you to her, in front of OM?

Mushy cards and chocolate hearts...a candlelit dinner at home for two? Necklace with both your initials? Ring? You can do this so much better.

You're not stuck...you're being who you are and doing what you can. You're still valiant. Expose, WA. "I love you with all my heart but you are destroying our family."

Her friends, coworkers, the bar, the bar manager...everybody.

LA

thanks LA,

Yesterday WW called me and said she wanted to go out last night b/c she needed a break from the little one. Quick thinkin I told her I had a work meeting. So when I got home whe went to eat then was back home so I could go to the meeting. I'm sure I'll pay for it tonight and she'll stay at OM house.

You said she is choosing other people over me more and more everyday. I see that. I don't know how to get her to choose family though! She is just acting so immature right now its driving me crazy. She wont even give me a hug anymore. I always kiss her on the forehead everynight before I go to sleep and she just make that sound like you disgust me. I feel so like I just want to slap her out of it. I try to make small talk and she just says she cant stand me. Cant stand to listen to me cant stand to look at me. What did I ever dooo?!! Maybe its just the FOG everyone tlks about but I dont know if I can keep ignoring what she says.

Im going to tell her this weekend "W I love you with all of my heart and you know that, You are destroying our family and Im going to tell our parents about your affair b/c I need there help, I cant do this by myself anymore. I'm going to stand beside you through this, just like I've been doing this far. I told you before that I would never hold this against you and I wont. I feel we need to do this if we are ever going to try to repair our marriage."

I don't know if that exactly the right thing to say but its worth a try. My dad is coming tomorrow so we can tell him and then we are going to her dads on Sun night for supper so we can tell them.

So as far as the gifts you think just get something like nothing has happened or is happening. I've got a few things in mind. I was just going to get her gifts from the girls but your probably right I will get her something from me to! I like the Idea of a song from the band to her from me. I'll have to think about that one.

Well LA if i dont hear from you before the weekend shout out a little prayer for me to be strong and pick myself up of the floor. Im sick of being a door mat!

Thanks again so much. Talk to ya soon

Be strong, WA...prayers are continuing. One thing...don't tell your wife you're going to expose the affair.

That's a big no-no.

Expose to everyone at the same time, 'k?

Otherwise, exposure can be manipulated and made about you, not her.

Write in that anger journal...put all that you're feeling down in a safe place, on paper. You can do this!

LA