You not only married a little boy, you married a spoiled little boy.

Tell him I said so.

And I am a Seattle Fan!

... a spoilt, selfish, self-indulgent little boy.

.... after exposing the A, if he's sorry and guilty, he would be indulging in you instead

... so the $2000 cruise together is not a bad idea

... he can watch superbowl some other time

Join the club my h to a T

.My eyes nearly fell out when i found out about narcissitic personality disorder. When you read up on this everything falls into place. Knowing the symptoms helps you to cope with and predict the behaviour.

Amazon have plenty of books on the subject and the internet has some helpful articles.

This guy is acting like a typical WS looking for a weekend away with OW. If the A from 4 yrs ago is over, is there a chance he's in another one?

I wish you'd had time to implement a good Plan A, because I'm aching to recommend Plan B. Or a good statement of boundaries: I won't stay married to a man who acts as though he's single.

He obviously thinks you can't live without him, and you'll do anything in your power to hang onto him. Be strong.

What's your status today? Has anything changed?

midge

Hi all
I have had trouble getting on the past few days. The server has been busy or something. Has anyone else had this problem? Anyway thank you all so much for your support. My FWH came home from work last night and told me he was going to go and I hit the roof. All this talking and crying and our concelor telling him to "choose wisely" did not effect him. I left after dinner to meet some freinds(previously arranged). We spoke via cell on the way over and when I saw that he was missing this opportunity to help me and avoid hurting me I hung up and turned my phone off.

When I got home around midnight he was asleep on the couch and his bag was packed. I went to bed without waking him and locked the door. He came in around 1 and we had very few words and he left. His 1st night out of the bed. He came back in at 6 and said he would not go. He called his freinds and they are mad (probalby at me). No one knows about the A he just said there is stuff going on at home.

He told me he wants me to stay off MB website and talk to him ( I let him read the responses). In return for his great sacrafice he wants me to stop dwelling on the A. I am grateful for your responses to be strong b/c I am starting to feel slightly guilty for not giving in to him even though I know it is the right thing to do. I need to focus on getting myself better for the marriage and the kids and I cant let him manipulate me anymore.

Thanks!

"He told me he wants me to stay off MB website and talk to him ( I let him read the responses)."

See if he will post and give his side. I'm really curious about the reason why he thinks he is entitled to a $2000. superbowl trip while you sit at home in misery, thinking about his affair.

I'm really concerned that he wants you off the site. I mean, if you WANT to leave the site, for YOUR own reasons, that makes sense. But for him to use it as a bargaining chip (I'll talk to you IF you don't get support elsewhere) is manipulative. He already doesn't listen to your counsellor (he chose not to "choose wisely"). He only Didn't go to the SuperBowl under great duress, and with the guilt trip added in for good measure "my friends are mad at me".

It would have meant something if he'd said (as the beginning, or next best thing, after rethinking it).."I'm sorry I've put you in a position of feeling so betrayed, I know that me going away to the Superbowl would be very selfish, I'm sorry. I'm going to stay home and we'll work through this, somehow".

But, he didn't say that, or anything even vaguely sounding like he's working on your marriage at all. I'm so sorry.

Leave here, if you want to. But do not leave because he told you to. It sets a precedent for his future manipulative behaviours towards you.

He has to remember that it was HE who created this problem. He has to be a large and willing participant in creating the solution.

Friends mad at him because he supported you his wife (even though under duress) instead of partying are not friends.

There are many other words for them however.

I am not leaving the site. He has no right to tell me what to do or how to heal. His thought is that by talking about it I am thinking about it and since he no longer thinks of her or it he wants me to do the same. Frankly this superbowl stuff is a welcome break from the obssessing about the A but I do have many thing to work out about the A.

He is very supportive when he wants to be. He wanted this superbowl thing and he was going to get it no matter what cost. I told him last night b4 he packed his bags to go to Detroit that his selfishness was going to set us back months in our recovery and he still planned on going. I also told him at the same time that he was to never say in therapy or otherwise that he did not realize how much going would affect me or the marriage etc.

I love him so much but he is very very selfish. He says and does the right things most of the time b/c they are easy for him at the time. I do really believe he loves me just loves himself more. When things are difficult its hard for him to be a big boy and suck it up. I am so dissapointed in him. This was the first opportunity for him to put my needs before his and he failed by fighting me so hard. That being said I suppose he does deserve credit for not going even though it was under duress. He told me this morning the trip was just not meant to be and he wasnt going to sulk about it. That if it helped me heal then it will be worth it.

I just dont understand how this trip can compare to my hurt.

HF,

One of the things we did in our marriage that was too subtle to detect how destructive it was, was for me to be my H's mother and him to be, well, the little boy. I waited to post because I couldn't see the Superbowl issue in that light anymore. I've stopped the mother role now for almost two years.

I see it again in your DJ "When things are difficult its hard for him to be a big boy and suck it up. I am so dissapointed in him."

Please stop taking the role of mother. You're his equal. Another human being, not his keeper. Find out where your pay off is in this role--do you feel more powerful, protected, smart, valuable? You can't be cherished as a wife when you're mothering. It's disrespectful and demoralizing.

I won't address him playing the son role, because he isn't here. It only took me to stop doing this to change our roles. I'm hoping the same for you.

LA

LA-
Thanks for your insight I do agree with you that I want him to be different and I try to control the issues at hand. I remember the 1st time too. My second son was 6 weeks old and had never had a bottle yet. We went out for New Years Eve with some friends for a few hours which turned into many hours since my H got drunk. We had to stop 2x on the highway for him to throw up and when we got back I promised myself that I would never let his childish behavior come before my children.

Since then I have let him do many of the things he has wanted to and I believe that led to us living seperate lives and the A. I was the good and responsible one and he was living for himself and having fun. So my question is how do I stop mothering him when he acts like a little boy? How can I be irrespossible when I feel like if Im not no one else will be? It feels like all the fun in this life belongs to him and I dont know how to change that.

HF,

Do you really want to stop mothering him? Do you think you could get past the fear of everything falling apart if you aren't his mother?

"I was the good and responsible one and he was living for himself and having fun."

Most marriages hit the skids from the very thing that attracted them in the first place. He sees you as a very together person (opposite of him) with whom he can learn to be that way. You see him as devoted and attached, in need of you.

Then that very need becomes "under responsible" and you compensate with each step being "over responsible." The more over you are, the more under he becomes. You both do this to each other, which is great, because it is under the radar and equal. Only one of you has to stop doing their over or under. Unfortunately, you sound like you want him to step up and be a man but that you are unwilling to stop over stepping.

I'm not bashing here. Often, motherhood alone causes this imbalance to become dangerous. See, how much you want to do it right (rearing your children), steps over into disrespect because you're only half the parenting crew...he is the other. You try to make him the father, husband, man you think he should be. What you need to rear great kids, right? I have been you, I swear. I'm not making this up. I disrespected my husband, over stepped his boundaries and trampled him.

I made those choices convinced it was the only way to get what I wanted...the best for my sons. Well, we can't do evil for good, can we? That's what I was doing. It will get worse.

"How can I be irrespossible when I feel like if Im not no one else will be?" I thought the same thing. See, you're thinking that you're a this point of being the "good" and responsible one, and to stop over doing, you have to go 180 degrees the other way to "irresponsible." 180 from 180 is still sick. Good phrase to remember.

What you want to do is to first recognize and stop every love busters you do. Disrespectful judgments are damaging, even in your mind. And it is a selfish demand of yours to want your H to be a different person than he is--or to stop each and every thing that you deem inadequate. What you're doing now gives him a pervasive feeling of inadequacy and he's not making it up.

First step is to listen to him and repeat. Keep your own opinions to yourself for one week. Look him in the eye, comprehend whatever he says and repeat back. Tell yourself his intent is good. The next week, repeat what you heard back. This means that you will work on your assumptions and mind reading and attempt to eliminate them.

Prioritize what you can live with and without. Really look at what yourself and why you're so stressed with him. Think about projection--is there something you can't stand him doing, that just infuriates you, that somewhere in yourself you're doing? Embrace it and know it. I'm not talking about blame-shifting; I'd rather your perspective change enough to see there is no blame in a good marriage.

That's where I started. I had to become safe for my H's words and feelings. I had to put aside my constant focus on him and look inside myself. A lot of the stress, the over-responsible woman I'd become was because I had a deep belief that love was earned. That led me to not love my H when he wasn't earning it. That's a no-win situation, because it was what I wanted most. :::: I'm hoping you don't believe that loving means being good, earning your way, being better than others to be loved more. It is a really hurtful road, believing that.

Can you modify your signature line to include your ages, length of marriage and children's ages? Also where you are right now--how long past dday and that you're in counseling? Just helps others here to help you get a quick summary.

Dare I ask, did you watch the superbowl?

((((Hisfool))))

LA

Thanks so much for your insight. I dont believe our relationship was always like this mother/son thing. We have been together since we were young and things were easy. The dynamics changed when the kids came into the picture. And especially after the birth of our twins 4 years ago (A started when they were 2 months old).

I think I was attracted to him because he took care of me. He loved me like no one else ever had and he was and still is a great deal of the time very very good to me. The responsible thing on my end came from wanting to be a good mother and wanting to grow and mature and he wanted to hang on to the old us. I think I sacraficed our married relationship for the kids and I know that was wrong.

However at the time of the beginning of the A I had no time to spend with him as we had 2 infants and 2 other kids and I was really busy to say the least. It kills to think that at that time he was doing that and I dont know if that hurt will ever go away. I feel like hwe didnt wait for me. He says one of the reasons the A started was because he missed so much what we had.

I am going to try what you said about really listening and repeating his words. I want this to work out. I too am grateful for my marriage and want so badly to be in recovery.

I was projecting, HF...my relationship started off with H being attracted to me for being so responsible. I was the over-responsible and he wanted to get that way. My bad in your scenario.

Glad you picked up on the motherhood-as-propellant, though. I am teaching that to my grown sons, as well. Think about it...mother earth...mother as most important (hence, responsible) in a child's life...all that pressure. When I really looked at my pattern (which fed my discontent huge mouthfuls), I realized I mothered everyone...including my own parents! I was oozing disrespect from every pore.

"great deal of the time very very good to me." Tell me more about this part.

"It kills to think that at that time he was doing that and I dont know if that hurt will ever go away." You can heal. You really can. There are steps you can take every day.

"He says one of the reasons the A started was because he missed so much what we had." Did he feel abandoned by you? His own fear of abandonment isn't selfishness, though it looks nearly identical. Something to think about.

Humans, when they feel their biggest fear, tend to feel it coming into them, like someone else is doing it to them. Retaliation, fed by entitlement (after all, you're abandoning him!) gives license to self-medicate. The hope I see is his confession, the brevity of the affair, and that for the intervening four years he has stayed with you and felt guilt and shame. Your experience of betrayal is just two months old, almost. Your pain is coming from being lied to for four years. Not knowing your H was capable of lying and betrayal, and he's had four years to process what he did. There is the imbalance.

You can get to recovery. This can be something good to align your choices, priorities and beliefs. I know it doesn't feel like that yet. I'm just letting you know the possibilities.

LA

I think he has been good to me in our life. I always thought he was a good man. Which is part of my pain. My dad is not really a man of great character, not horrible always there but not connected, and my H always has been. It hurts to think of him as flawed. I know thats wrong everyone is flawed but I never thought I would be here you know. I guess when I feel he is not being good to me is when I feel he is being selfish. Like in my recovery in this he is fed up with my pain and wants to move on so he says things like "you are going to kill us" or "why cant you just be strong its way over". I feel this puts everyhting on me for his selfish reasons of feeling better and wanting to get on with our lives. Maybe I just want him to take care of me.

I do feel he has a great sense of abandonment. He was adopted and I dont think he ever came to terms wiht that. He loved his mother (who died during those 7 months of the A...another huge event). I always knew he was weird about the adoption but not until she died did I know how alone he felt. He would say to me "I have no one" which was b/c he thought I would leave if I found out what he had done. After dday he told me I would never know how he felt about being given up for adoption and it was the ultimate rejection. The time b4 the A started we had been very crazy busy for probably a year and a half. I had a mis carraige right b4 the twin pregnancy and that preganancy was difficult so it had been a while since we had been in a "normal" situation. Looking back on it now I realize he was overwhelmed and he was weak. Which makes me sick he wasnt a better man ( I know mothering thing). And again makes me feel sorry for myself b/c I was home being responsible up all night with 2 babies and busy all day with the other kids while he was traveling and fooling around.

Thank you so much for the hope part of your post. I know I am doing the right thing by sticking by him. It just helps to hear it from someone else. I have not told anyone b/c I know it would be harder for us to move on if others knew. My only friend in this is my H and it helps to hear positive thoughts from others. Also last night I found an old email on his computer from her and he was upset with me for going on his computer. We had a pretty good argument and more than a few times I wanted to tell him how selfish I thought he was but I took your advise and really listened. Thanks!

Hey, HF, you've got some good self control there! Congrats. In that kind of argument, where he feels he should have privacy in the marriage, well, I would have been hard-pressed to listen and repeat. LOL. Great job, honestly.

Have you read Harley's Rules for marriage? Rule of Radical Honesty, Rule of Protection? Policy of Joint Agreement? Look these up. Nowhere have I seen Harley advocate keeping things from your spouse...even old crud you forgot you had on the computer. Part of your H's redemption for what he did is to act protective of his actions and choices in relation to you. Though I said he has had four years to process his affair, he hasn't been able to make amends for redemption until you knew. That's how it works.

Protection? He ferrets out all emails, files, anything of that era and trashes them...then empties the trash. You are not crazy to crave knowledge of the A. You need to learn to trust, and this is part of that trust.

His willingness goes a long way. He needs to know that.

I have a lot of triggers that have been diminishing over time. There is one, though, that persists. The spare bedroom next to ours had become his two years ago, for four months. In there, he talked on the phone to her, watched porn, wrote love letters...many things that killed me when I found out. We've rearranged the room, made it a television/computer room. Still, Sunday night, I was going upstairs to bed and saw the door to that room closed, the light underneath it, and I was right back into the pain, knee deep.

I opened the door and approached him in his chair, leaned down and hugged him lovingly, kissed him goodnight. I took my trigger with me to bed, shoving it aside. Chasing sleep and losing for an hour, I finally won and dreamed of someone attacking us, and I couldn't scream. I couldn't cry out and my H, beside me, wouldn't awaken. I woke up shaking, frustrated, fearful. When I went back to sleep, the dream happened again, different setting, different H, same result. At one point, I attempted to get someone else in my dream to scream for me. Didn't work.

The next morning at work, my H called to chat and asked me how I was doing. I told him not well enough, about the lack of sleep and feeling disturbed. Let let me talk it through, including the dreams and the trigger, and I said, "Now it makes sense. I wasn't telling you about the triggers. I felt they were my own problem. You know about the room and how it affects me. What can we do?" "We can clear it out. Knock down walls. Whatever it takes, I'm willing to do it."

That alone relieved me. He can't know how much I'm affected if I don't open my waking mouth. I needed to ask for what I needed. Not a scream, but an equal relief. He is willing to change our environment to protect me. Maybe if your H could understand that this is what relieves my H's guilt, gives him an amends, expresses his love, this willingness, then he will not fight you on what you need to heal? Protection signals commitment and priority. And you showed your protection by not retaliating last night with "You're so selfish!" See?

I was adopted, also. I understand thoroughly what your H is talking about. How he feels. My primary fear is that of abandonment. My H's is fear of intimacy. Interesting stuff.

Your honesty is terrific. "It hurts to think of him as flawed. I know thats wrong everyone is flawed but I never thought I would be here you know." This is introspective. I don't judge you. I think this is your doorway to feeling better about a lot of things.

You acknowledge that you married a human. Humans do damage. Accepting your H's human limitations, where he has done damage, is a step toward re-accepting him totally. I found this to be a critical part of my healing. The longer people are together, the less intimate they can become (like you saying the roles aided you in living seperating lives), so the more they depend on each other's image...what they judge the other to be. Acceptance drains away, along with truly knowing one another fresh again. I believe the pain is not coming from him failing your expectation of who he should be--because that is you expecting something of someone else based on your own standards (doesn't work). I think the pain is coming from that spot where intimacy once was, that deep trust of sharing one with the other that existed pre-children. You guys can have that back. It's not lost, just buried under resentments, expectations, anger and frustration.

"Which makes me sick he wasnt a better man ( I know mothering thing)." When you depend on image, that is all you get, so it is critical. When you accept another's reality as theirs, no one has to fail your expectations and they tend to see themselves less as failures and more loved.

It also sounds like the disrespect you give him, you also give yourself. How could you pick a not-good man? You blew it again! Stop this and the extra pain you're feeling, about who he is as a reflection of you, will drop off. That leaves the legitimate pain of what he did, in its appropriate size.

Btw, have to ask, do you accuse yourself of being selfish? Is that a big fear, that someone will look at you and say, "Isn't she selfish?"

I'm curious.

Thank you for the amazing way you show yourself in your posts--for the time and courage that takes.

LA

LA-
So sorry to hear about your sleepless night. Boy have I been there lately. It is nice your H is willing to help you with your triggers. Its so scary to think that years down the road I will still be shaken like that but I know it will happen. It has just been so hard lately I am just hoping for some relief from this pain soon.

Yes, I have read Harleys Rules. I will need to review protection. I know it bugs him I am checking on him. He thinks that I am just wallowing in self pity and that it makes me think of the A even more when I find something. The thing is I dont REALLY know what happened. I am sure I never will. Every email I have seen from him is flirtatous and kind and he says he was not really those things. I believe him to an extent but the wondering is driving me crazy. On the other hand I know that whatever it was it is over and has been for a long time. But still I feel like I need to know the gory details to move on.

I also want so much for him to just hold me and comfort me when I cry---which in his defense is quite often. I guess I just want to know he loves me b/c I am so unsure of myself right now. I always thought I was the most important thing in the world to him and now I feel so upside down and inside out. I really feel he is getting tired of babying me and is now turning to a tough love approach of "get it together". When I first found out he cried and told me he would do whatever it took for however long it took and now I am feeling like my time is up.

Everything you wrote about what is in my head is correct. I think I really need to grow up to truly recover from this and that will be hard. I have my own issues of not feeling loved enough. I think that I do hide my selfishness behind my martyr role of motherhood and goodness. He has told me from dday that I would never understand b/c I am so good. The truth is when it comes ot him I am selfish. I want to be 1st in his book. Before he thinks of himself I want him to think of me. That is why I truly fell inlove with him. I was always up on a pedastal with him. I had never felt more safe and secure and deeply loved in my life. Things are so differnt now. That really hurts to think that out loud. We are so scarred and tainted. I know the growingup thing will take care of that feeling sorry about not being perfect anymore but that growing up thin is pretty scary!!

Thank you so much for making me think about so many things. I feel like I have made some progress lately.

I looked up the info about a narcissistic personality and this sounds exactly like my H!!

"I always thought I was the most important thing in the world to him and now I feel so upside down and inside out. I really feel he is getting tired of babying me and is now turning to a tough love approach of "get it together". When I first found out he cried and told me he would do whatever it took for however long it took and now I am feeling like my time is up."

This is so beautiful, HF. These words are the exact ones to use when you communicate with your H. "I hear it is difficult for you when I am struggling with this knowledge. Here is what I need to heal: Time, information, MC and patience. What do you think?"

I think you should say how selfish you are about him...that he did give you the solid feeling of being number one, well loved and adored. He needs to know that, too. That you believe you can have that back is really important to communicate. Pump up that these tears, this pain, is not changing your belief in your marriage. Tell him you believe in him, need him and can now see a lot of what you didn't before.

The pedastal thing had to go, you know. You can feel all the great feelings you had before by being solidly equal. Your H craves the equality, too. He has just been in the pattern of less than you for too long to break it right away.

So much hope--you can't imagine yet how great it is to get through this, bonded again, freshly in love and cherished. Truly, you both are on your way. You can get there. You are amazingly open and introspective. You aren't pushing away from feeling blamed, brought down or erased. I really admire you.

How's your pain level since coming to MB? This place saved me. I'm praying the same for you. The key was to gaining a realistic undertanding of not feeling loved enough, breaking it down and finding out why. Tough journey with wonderful results.

LA

LA-I think you make a good point of telling him the tears are not a reflection of my feelings about the marriage. I think he definatley could be looking at it like that.

In a lot of ways I do feel we are reborn in our love although I hate to say that b/c I dont want to think of his A as having been a positive thing. Also it scares me to think that if it is all good after this then why wouldnt it happen again????

My pain level is still very high. Pretty bad today b/c we have been arguing. He is traveling and I want him to be thinking of me all the time and he is busy with work. I am sad that he wakes up and checks his email b4 he calls me. I am upset that when I tell him this he gets frustrated and short with me which leads me to the "you are the one that created this mess buddy" attitude. I just want him to comfort me all the time and he wants to get back to normal routine. I dont feel ready for that like if I let it go it makes it ok...I know not right just one of the crazy thoughts in my head. Its so hard unlike anything I have ever known.

I have asked him to read what I have written and the responses b/c I do feel I have grown from this and I also asked him to post his side of the story and ask for help with issues he is having. He says he will do it. I hope he will.